Shuffling In T1...

[kl0wn]

I can understand it in any of the Wizards-supported formats since there's actually something to be gained from cheating there

So there is nothing to be gained in winning a lotus, or a mox? Hell those are worth more then anything I could win at a local FNM and I STILL shuffle my opponents deck there. Just another $0.02 from me.

In comparison to the tens of thousands of dollars that can be won on the Pro Tour, not really.

To be totally honest, if someone can cheat that well, they're really mis-allocating their time and resources by playing in a format where the biggest prize yields about $600 for over 12 hours of work (and that's only a once/month opportunity), minus travel expenses and the thousands of dollars in cards they've had to invest in of course. Bad money management if you ask me. And don't forget to get change for that nickel while you're at the bank pimpin' it in your foam helmet.

[DEA]

Ok, When I get power and whatnot I'm going to riffle. I riffle the fuck out of my cards

come post here after you do
pretty sure you'll feel otherwise
unless of course you get care packages of full p9 for xmas or whatnot

if the tourney is going to be enforced enough to require shuffling, and your opponent looks as though he sits at home all day jerking off AND he doesn't wash his hands, call a judge to do the shuffling
i understand i@n de graff was shuffling someone's deck very hard during gen con

[jpmeyer]

Personally, when somebody shuffles my deck, it makes me very hostile towards them and it feels less like a game of Magical cards and more like a game of rules-lawyering. Thusly, I look for every opportunity to call a judge over and get the person who shuffled my deck a game loss or even better, disqualified. And people make a LOT of mistakes in this format, so it's not all that difficult in theory. Unfortunately, judges are a bit more lenient in Type 1, so it's a bit more difficult in practice. Basically, when some stick shuffles my deck, I go from playing at REL 1 to REL 5. Live by the rules, die by the rules, bitch.

I just find this amusing because I've found that playing exactly by the rules makes it easier to avoid confusion and almost impossible for your opponenet to rules lawyer you back.  Usually this makes everything clear and avoids any failure to agree on reality warnings, but there have been a few people that have seen this like you have, as an insult and amusingly they've been the ones that have understood the rules the least.  I move my hand by my land and then say "pass" and they'll be like "your land is tapped take three burn" and I'll be like "JUDGE!" and then he'll explain what I'm doing and give them a warning for unsportsmanlike conduct.

[Saucemaster]

I don't give a flying crap if it's in the floor rules or not, it implies that they think I stacked my deck in some way. It's fine for Type 2 and whatnot where the name of the game is being a dick, but it just rubs me the wrong way in Type 1.

Wow... a little sensitive, aren't we?  I actually totally disagree.  An opponent shuffling your deck does NOT necessarily imply that you think they're cheating.  An opponent shuffling ONLY your deck--and almost no one else's--might be said to imply that.  But if your opponent shuffles your deck and everyone else's that he plays against, he's simply being consistent.  Think of it this way: if you thought that it was possible that one of your opponents in a tournament might cheat and try to stack his deck, but you wanted to refrain from insulting any of them and just generally try to be a levelheaded, even-keel sort of guy, while simultaneously avoiding being the victim of cheating, what would you do?

I'd shuffle each of my opponents' decks.  Every single time, every single game.  No one is being singled out, you're not insinuating anything, you're just treating everyone exactly the same.  Moreover, it's perfectly your right to do so.  What this behavior DOES imply is that you think that it's possible that SOMEONE might be cheating, but if you honestly think it's impossible that anyone in any given tournament is cheating, you're just a sucker.  Personally, I respect people who know how to watch their own backs.

[Dr. Sylvan]

I think kl0wn has an important point that the opponent shuffling your deck is simply the inverse of him shuffling his own deck. I don't think I buy the 'trust everyone' dynamic, but anyone who can dodge the simplest anti-cheating measure is indeed misapplying their skills. The best way is to watch while the opponent shuffles looking for any irregularities (preferably his eyes are on your hands rather than his own), and then multiple-cut his deck. Multi-part cutting makes it impossible to predict which part of his deck will end up on top, eliminating the advantage of stacking while being both simple and very harmless to other players' cards.

I must admit that it if the decks were worth less this issue would be mostly moot to me, but I barely trust myself to shuffle my deck. My roommates are astonished that I trust my Power to anything less than an all-hard-plastic set of sleeves. I find it comparable to trusting a half dozen random people test drive your car during the day with you sitting in the back seat hoping they don't wreck everything. In a format where my deck is worth more than the maximum possible prize, trusting a half dozen or more random, grimy-handed Magic players to abuse the hell out of my investment is not only risky, it's unnecessary.

Multi-part cutting 4L.

[wicked chicken]

I know that this isn't a really produtive comment but i really have issues with people (strangers)touching my shit. Anyone ever been slavered or duressed and have your opponent try to grab your hand?you can see it fine accross the table,i'll lay it out for you.

Just makes me feel violated.

[Meddling Mike]

Dxfiler wrote:
He hands me his slavery and I instinctively start to shuffle... he points out 2 things: 1) Don't shuffle during a testing game.


Nobody has really commented on point 1, but the worst thing you can do during a test game is NOT shuffle. When you intutition for AK, cast AK, gee, no surprise all your AKs are stuck together.

When testing, you should always shuffle well or your results will be tainted. You don't need to go overboard, but if you're going to spend a couple hours playtesting a couple dozen games, take the extra 30 seconds each game and shuffle "enough" for testing.

Bill

You're quite right about the matter, I'm not sure if that's exactly what Dave meant by no shuffling, I've had TAL mention these points to me as well, and the problem was me taking too long shuffling, and also taking too long shuffling for unimportant shuffles like for fetch lands, but I think the "extra 30 seconds each game and shuffle "enough" for testing." you mentioned is more towards what he was suggesting. Of course I don't speak for TAL or Dave on this matter.

I think kl0wn has an important point that the opponent shuffling your deck is simply the inverse of him shuffling his own deck. I don't think I buy the 'trust everyone' dynamic, but anyone who can dodge the simplest anti-cheating measure is indeed misapplying their skills. The best way is to watch while the opponent shuffles looking for any irregularities (preferably his eyes are on your hands rather than his own), and then multiple-cut his deck. Multi-part cutting makes it impossible to predict which part of his deck will end up on top, eliminating the advantage of stacking while being both simple and very harmless to other players' cards.

I must admit that it if the decks were worth less this issue would be mostly moot to me, but I barely trust myself to shuffle my deck. My roommates are astonished that I trust my Power to anything less than an all-hard-plastic set of sleeves. I find it comparable to trusting a half dozen random people test drive your car during the day with you sitting in the back seat hoping they don't wreck everything. In a format where my deck is worth more than the maximum possible prize, trusting a half dozen or more random, grimy-handed Magic players to abuse the hell out of my investment is not only risky, it's unnecessary.

Multi-part cutting 4L.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this matter Dr. Sylvan, the typical stacking doesn't necessarily give God hands, but produces good draws rather, to the order of "spell, land, spell, spell, land" (having done deck checks myself at PTQ's on a few occasions I can attest that this is what is primarily looked for when attempting to determine if a deck is stacked) continuously repeating throughout the deck, so if you cut the deck, even multiple times, the order is only *slightly* thrown off. however, by pile/riffle shuffling the order can be thrown off, and if it's perfectly stacked, 3 pile shuffling will not only not damage your opponent's cards, it will create two piles of spells, one pile of land. creating RIDICULOUS clumps if your opponent did indeed stack their deck, which their right to cut once when their deck is presented back to them will not be sufficient to undo the fact that all their mana is clumped.

3 pile shuffle 4L

[Methuselahn]

If you have decided to subject your oh so valuable cards at risk by playing them in a tournament then accept all that comes with it.  If you are going to use your cards, they will become worn.  Letting the other player shuffle is an inherent part of the game.  I find it hard to believe that people actually get upset over this.  Don't you understand that there are far more important things in life.  sheesh. stop whining.

If you have a problem with a certain individual shuffling your deck, then have a judge do it.

[jpmeyer]

I also find it amusing that people are like "Sheesh, it's not like there's thousands of dollars at stake" and then get annoyed at the fact that people touching their cards could possibly take money away from them by devaluing their cards.

[RoadTrippin]

I know that this isn't a really produtive comment but i really have issues with people (strangers)touching my shit. Anyone ever been slavered or duressed and have your opponent try to grab your hand?you can see it fine accross the table,i'll lay it out for you.

Just makes me feel violated.

Yeah people really gotta chill out with that- not even because I play with the odd expensive card or two, but because they just need to chill. I'll present my cards, or you will PRESENT YOUR FUDGE.


Also- would it be possible to get the DCI rules on proxies in here.. aka do they have to be given to you by the judge?

[Kowal]

more than that, they need to be signed and issued by the head judge.

[wicked chicken]

maybe rules lawyers should go play sanctioned type1

[The Atog Lord]

This is an interesting discussion. I think that there is a different, perhaps more lenient attitude in Type One events. I shuffle my opponent’s deck only when that opponent has started to shuffled my deck first. In the last four power tournaments that I’ve been to, this has happened exactly one time. On the other hand, in any other format, I always shuffle.

In the same vein, I’ve let people take back mistakes in Type One tournaments which have cost me matches. This is something that I wouldn’t do in any other format.

[Ranma4703]

I riffle shuffle my deck 12 times. I riffle shuffle my opponents deck 6-9 times, depending on how well they shuffle their deck. I do this no matter the format. I did this when I had NM Beta power in my deck, and I do it when I have a draft deck filled with commons. I just shuffle, because the hand you draw is supposed to be random. Far too often my opponent fails to properly randomize his deck before presenting it to me. He might mana weave then shuffle 4 times, or only do a pile shuffle. That is not good enough. Some people say that I cause mana clumps, because I shuffle too much. Guess what? If the deck is random, shuffling it more just makes it more random!
Basically, I shuffle my opponents deck because they often fail to randomize their own deck. I would love to never get mana screwed and stack my deck, but that is cheating.

[rvs]

Being grizzled and all old-school and such, I take tremendous offense to people shuffling my deck. I don't give a flying crap if it's in the floor rules or not, it implies that they think I stacked my deck in some way. It's fine for Type 2 and whatnot where the name of the game is being a dick, but it just rubs me the wrong way in Type 1.

Not to mention, people usually take a really long time shuffling, and when added on to the ridiculously excessive time it takes most people to make decisions in Type 1, you end up with a lot of draws. Especially when you have the game in the bag, but you need like one or two extra turns to actually kill your opponent and they sit there all smugly on extra turn 3 because they just got away with a draw when they quite clearly lost.

Personally, when somebody shuffles my deck, it makes me very hostile towards them and it feels less like a game of Magical cards and more like a game of rules-lawyering. Thusly, I look for every opportunity to call a judge over and get the person who shuffled my deck a game loss or even better, disqualified. And people make a LOT of mistakes in this format, so it's not all that difficult in theory. Unfortunately, judges are a bit more lenient in Type 1, so it's a bit more difficult in practice. Basically, when some stick shuffles my deck, I go from playing at REL 1 to REL 5. Live by the rules, die by the rules, bitch.

A quick triple, quadruple or even quintuple cut is enough of a shuffle while still remaining friendly. Touching someone's deck/cards beyond that really is an affront to Type 1 etiquette.

Omg kl0wn, you are horrible. Shuffling your opponents deck IS required, and with your argument, who's the dick eh? I would normally tell my opponents to shuffle my deck, so it's their fault when I combo them out on turn1. It makes sense, otherwise you actually get some shit about how "lucky" you actually are -
And before you think I'm shitting you, this has happened to me in the past.

If you have a problem with a stalling opponent, call a judge. It's really that simple.

About the rel thing: Who's being the dick now? See a pattern?

I'm truly baffled by your post, Bryce.

[rvs]

Come to think of it, the next time someone pile shuffles my deck, I'm going to get involved.  That shit's illegal anyway, it's one of the single easiest ways to stack a deck.  Waste as much time as you want as long as the round ends with the judge telling you that you lost.

All you said here does not apply when it isn't actually your deck. If your opponenet manages to "stack" your deck with a pile shuffle, it means that YOU did not sufficiently randomize it in the first place. Furthermore, read above what I said to kl0wn.

[jpmeyer]

Do people not understand that players are only alloted 3 minutes at the beginning of each game for shuffling and 1 minute (IIRC) for mid-game shuffles?

[rvs]

Also- would it be possible to get the DCI rules on proxies in here.. aka do they have to be given to you by the judge?

Did it occur to you that proxy-tournaments aren't dci-sanctioned. That's why a lot of BS goes on at those particular tournaments. As a natural result, the DCI doesn't have any rules on proxies. Typically, at proxy tournaments, you are even moreso than in a dci tournament, handed over to the will of the judge, and you can't do shit about it.

[Kowal]

Err, MoreFling, you're wrong.  There are proxy rules.

Based on whether or not a card in your possession is in playable condition, a judge can deliver a proxy to the player in need.  This is most commonly done with a card off center in some type of limited format, but in some cases a card being worn to the point of being noticable through opaque sleeves (like a dent on one side so deep that the back sticks out a little, or a crease big enough to spot through the sleeve) the judge will still issue a proxy.

Also, as far as stacking while pile shuffling, one can *really* easily de-randomize just by changing the order of the shuffle.

[rvs]

Kowal: that's obv. not the type of proxies being referred too. Of course I know about the proxy-rules you mentioned.

Also, about the shuffling: so you're saying I'm right?

[jazzykat]

I only cut my opponents decks. If you cheat against me then you suck at life and it is you who has the problem not me.

If my opponent must shuffle then I expect them NEVER to riffle shuffle (I will punch them in the face as my lotus, library and jet are not in very good condition and I don't want a jack off weakening them further.)

[Meddling Mike]

Also, as far as stacking while pile shuffling, one can *really* easily de-randomize just by changing the order of the shuffle.

What do you mean exactly by "changing the order of the shuffle"? Like stacking your deck in a way other than "Spell, Land, Spell, Spell, Land"? If so I have never seen a deck stacked differently than that, other than that is basically shipping god hand to the top 7 cards. The reason why it's the predominant stacking method is because it is very easy to do, in between rounds cheaters can't sit there and meticulously place every card in every place necessary without looking a little sketchy. The stacking which I described earlier can be accomplished very discreetly in what looks to be pile shuffling. If you were referring to shuffling your deck after it is returned to you, or something to that extent, you're only allowed to cut your deck once after it is returned to you before starting the game. Also, even if you see your opponent riffle shuffling their deck right before your eyes it's not a solid garuntee. A person with enough practice can perform a "perfect riffle" shuffle and stack their deck, although this is considerably more difficult than the way that utilizes pile shuffling as it does involve suspiciously ordering all your cards perfectly so that two or three perfect riffles will put them in the correct places

I also don't think I know of any judge that would call somebody for pile shuffling their opponents deck, I'm also fairly sure I've never read anywhere that it's against the rules. If your deck does become stacked as a result of your opponent pile shuffling, I'm going to have to agree with Morefling that it's going to be fairly obvious that you did indeed not sufficiently randomize and had stacked your deck. That's the beauty of the three pile shuffle, it's only an issue if your opponent did indeed cheat, if not, it's just a regular shuffle.

[theorigamist]

A person with enough practice can perform a "perfect riffle" shuffle and stack their deck

This is extraordinarily difficult to do.  You would have to adjust the speed of your riffle part way through, and it would become very obvious by the sizes of the clumps your shuffling forms.  I think you're referring to the thing you can do with a normal deck of playing cards (8 perfect riffles in a row will return the deck to its starting position).  That doesn't work with sixty cards (afaik).

[Meddling Mike]

Using perfect riffles to stack a deck isn't exactly the same in magic, as you and I noted it is extremely difficult to do, but with enough practice one can learn to do it discreetly. In magic, rather than doing perfect riffles a certain number of times to return the deck to it's original order, a very specific card order is memorized by the cheater, and a set number of perfect riffles will set it to an ideal stacking. However, as I said earlier, this looks incredibly sketchy as well as it involves resetting the deck after every match to it's original card order, so next round it can be riffled a set number of times again, and the process is repeated indefinitely.

[Dxfiler]

Worse yet is when they pile shuffle.  Yes, wasting an additional two to four minutes is a great idea.  Chug wang sauce, prick.  Gimme your pile, I'm gonna riffle it as much as possible while you're 'randomizing'

Come to think of it, the next time someone pile shuffles my deck, I'm going to get involved.  That shit's illegal anyway, it's one of the single easiest ways to stack a deck.  Waste as much time as you want as long as the round ends with the judge telling you that you lost.

Pile shuffling is nowhere near as bad as riffle shuffling as far as type 1 is concerned.  True it's not the most time effective way to shuffle, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with piling whatsoever.  Also, it is not illegal.  So I mean, you can call a judge on your opponent if they pile shuffle, but the judge won't be giving out game loses for it :-p  Think about it, would you rather have your opponent mashing 2 piles of power together, or taking approx. 1 minute  to quickly divide them into multiple piles?  I personally don't pile shuffle very often, but that doesn't mean it's wrong... because there's nothing wrong with piling and to be blunt, you're getting bent out of shape for nothing.

This is a very good discussion, please keep the comments coming.

- David Feinstein (Dxfiler)

[gzeiger]

I am also baffled by kl0wn's post. Shuffling the opponent's deck is merely an indication that I believe someone somewhere might cheat. I do it to everybody, so it's no indication of suspicion, just a very healthy habit. To do otherwise encourages cheaters. Although they are far more rare in Type 1, they do exist.

I agree with Atog Lord though about other courtesies, like allowing a poor play to be reversed on request. I pretty much always agree to that unless it was done in a way that revealed information about my hand.

I'm also surprised at the misguided attitude regarding pile-shuffling. It's certainly not illegal to do, and as someone noted above it will only mana-screw a player who is cheating. If your deck is randomized it will still be random when it comes back. If it was stacked then there's a good chance you'll be mana-screwed.

Pile-shuffling is preferable to other methods for several other reasons too. It's much more gentle on the cards, which is a legitimate concern, and it removes the possibility of seeing cards in the deck, intentionally or not.

I also don't think that buying a few old cards is sufficient to earn my trust. All the Type 1 players locally are indeed people I would trust holding my wallet, and I've loaned multiple pieces of power to many of them at one time or another, but if I show up at a bigger tournament (the side event at DC for example) I'm not going to know anybody. You're asking an awful lot here.

As a judge I also see Type 1 players get taken advantage of in many ways in other formats. It happens to me too, since I am fairly trusting in general. I think we as a community can retain the friendliness and laid-back atmosphere that characterizes our events while at the same time trying to develop habits that will serve us well in other formats.

[brendan]

I always shuffle my opponants decks, it's required by tournament rules, and it's also habit.

Anyone who wants to have a cry over having their oh so valueable cards shuffled should proxy those cards, or just not play them at all. It's a card game, the cards get shuffled, end of story. Complainers need to take a chill pill.

[Kowal]

Well, technically, it's not required unless it's a REL 3 or higher event.  The rules say until that point you're only required to present your deck to your opponent so they can shuffle if they choose to.

[Meddling Mike]

Ok, Rule 114.3 of the DCI floor rules says

Players present their decks to their opponents for additional shuffling and cutting.

So, as you can see it says that additional shuffling and cutting must occur and makes no reference whatsoever to it being active or inactive at certain REL levels, and to my knowledge the REL level only affects the penalties dispensed for various forms of cheatery.

[Kowal]

21.   Shuffling
Shuffling must be done so that the faces of the cards cannot be seen. Regardless of the method used to shuffle, players’ decks must be sufficiently randomized. Each time players shuffle their decks, they must present their decks to their opponents for additional shuffling and/or cutting (you'll notice at no point does it mandate the shuffling and cutting, it just mandates your offering of it. -Kowal) At a judge’s discretion, players may request to have a judge shuffle their cards rather than pass that duty to their opponents. By presenting their decks to their opponents, players are stating that their decks are correct, legal, and sufficiently randomized.

After decks are presented and accepted, any player who does not feel his or her opponent has made a reasonable effort to sufficiently randomize his or her deck must notify a judge. The head judge has final authority to determine whether a deck has been sufficiently randomized. The head judge also has the authority to determine if a player has used reasonable effort to randomize his or her deck. If the head judge feels that either the deck has not been sufficiently randomized or that a player has not made a reasonable effort to randomize his or her deck, the player will be subject to the appropriate provisions of the DCI Penalty Guidelines.

To aid in randomization, at REL 3 and higher events players must always shuffle their opponents’ decks at the beginning of games. The head judge can mandate the shuffling of opponents’ decks at lower RELs (1 and 2) as long as he or she announces this at the beginning of the tournament. If a shuffling effect takes place, players may shuffle and must cut their opponents’ decks after the shuffling effect is completed.

Once players have had the opportunity to shuffle and/or cut their opponents’ decks, the cards are returned to their original owners. If the opponent has shuffled the player’s deck, that player may make one final cut.