Shuffling In T1...

[KitzuneNinja]

Anyone who wants to have a cry over having their oh so valueable cards shuffled should proxy those cards, or just not play them at all. It's a card game, the cards get shuffled, end of story. Complainers need to take a chill pill.

I think you can ask for a judge to shuffle your deck in your opponents place. Have I dreamt this up or is it actually so?

[RoadTrippin]

Kowal: that's obv. not the type of proxies being referred too. Ofcourse I know about the proxy-rules you mentioned.

Also, about the shuffling: so you're saying I'm right?

Actually, those are exactly the type of proxies being referred to. I thought it was clear, sorry if it wasn't.

[Lashkar]

Hmm, I must admit that I always shuffle people's decks if I do not know them, granted, I'll do it gently and I really expect my opponent to do the same (though riffling should be banned). If I start out with turn 1 recall turn 2 mind twist your hand or some insane turn 1 kill in the good ol' long days, I'll feel a lot better about it if my opponent has shuffled my deck - the same goes the other way around. Furthermore, as pointed out, it is required by the DCI floor rules at certain RELs, I really see no problem. It's also a matter of seeing whether the opponent shuffles carefully enough, if he just shuffles through a few times before presenting his deck, I will definitely shuffle it up somewhat thoroughly to properly randomize it.
I really prefer cutting or shuffling when playing friends in tournaments too (shuffling mostly if they do not do it properly) , getting broken hands just feels flat out dirty when your opponent/friend hasn't even touched your deck, but that might just be me. In the middle of the game, I usually just let people cut their decks themselves though, especially if they seem trustworthy.

[Meddling Mike]

I stand corrected, knew I should have checked the comprehensive rules instead of just the floor rules, good catch Kowal.

YA GOT ME

-Mike

[xzero]

My power is so beat, that if it weren't clearly marked, I would definitely play without sleeves just to shock people.  I have played some casual games with my power and drains (and other pimp cards like foil wishes, etc) without sleeves.

It should also be worth noting that I play 5Color as well.

[Panix]

Maybe because I don't play in the uber dual lotus 50 moxen tournaments, but it's lame to cheat anyways, especially for pots of like $20-$30 of store credit.  If you're that pathetic to cheat on a small scale, more power to ya.  

I understand taking the game seriously (I usually do at tournies, even for the small pots) but noone (should) have the right to shuffle my deck.   IMO, you might as well stand up and say "You're a fucking cheater."  I had one guy I had never seen before at a tournament I attended at a store I'm a usual at shuffle my deck.  He's one of those leet guys that just regurgiates everything he reads on themanadrain.com and uses the phrases and sayings people here would only understand in conversation.  Why should some outsider faggot that have the nerve to think I would cheat and want to shuffle my deck?  

If you have this little faith in who you play with/against, maybe you shouldn't be playing with them at all.

[Meddling Mike]

Maybe because I don't play in the uber dual lotus 50 moxen tournaments, but it's lame to cheat anyways, especially for pots of like $20-$30 of store credit. If you're that pathetic to cheat on a small scale, more power to ya.

I understand taking the game seriously (I usually do at tournies, even for the small pots) but noone (should) have the right to shuffle my deck. IMO, you might as well stand up and say "You're a fucking cheater." I had one guy I had never seen before at a tournament I attended at a store I'm a usual at shuffle my deck. He's one of those leet guys that just regurgiates everything he reads on themanadrain.com and uses the phrases and sayings people here would only understand in conversation. Why should some outsider faggot that have the nerve to think I would cheat and want to shuffle my deck?

If you have this little faith in who you play with/against, maybe you shouldn't be playing with them at all.

1. There are people who cheat at the game of magic, it happens. To believe otherwise is just naive.
2. Cheaters are a bit more subtle than the Guererros and don't wear shirts that say "cheat 2 win" so who cheats and who doesn't isn't obvious, not taking the proper precautions to prevent cheating on a regular basis only encourages cheating. I only neglect to do so when A) There is absolutely nothing at stake, like playtesting or B) My opponent is a very close friend of mine.
3. This "outsider" you mentioned is just that, he doesn't know you, so why should he automatically consider you trustworthy?
4. Why do people always take having their deck shuffled as an insult? I personally encourage my opponents to shuffle my deck, it removes any doubt later as well as further randomizing my deck and removing clumps. As long as they're respecting the condition of my cards, they're doing me a favor.

[Luc, Use The Force]

In Québec and Ontario, some people play in toploaders.

Even if they make deck manipulation harder, they are not as bad as they look.

I play with those even if only half of my power is in mint condition. Toploaders also ensures me my bent Library and my Scrap Lotus won't crap in any opponent hand while they riffle shuffle.

The thing is, people who just shuffle to annoy you won't do it if you play in toploaders. The others will simply pile shuffle your deck and it will be ok, since you'll always show them you randomize ennough before they put their hands on your deck. That way, you don't look like a dick that says: "Try to shuffle my deck if you can".

I have never been worring about people cheating, I'm just worring about people trying to annoy the others by being hard on their deck, a thing that I have seen way too often. Furthermore, while I play in hard sleeves, all my attention goes to the game.

[kl0wn]

For the record, I was simply answering Dxfiler's question, not condemning shuffling your opponents' decks completely. The issue posed:

Still being relatively new to the T1 atmosphere, I become more and more fascinated at the environment and the players as the days go by. My recently new-found knowledge came last night when testing T1 with Mr. Atog Lord. He hands me his slavery and I instinctively start to shuffle... he points out 2 things...2) "That reminds me, you really aren't supposed to shuffle your opponent's deck in type 1."

I had to actually pause and think about his statement. When I asked him to elaborate, Rich's explanation was that it's disrespectful to do so since there apparently is no element of dis-trust...He said most players would be offended if I were to do shuffle their deck.

My reply was essentially "Yes, I do get offended when people shuffle my deck". Call me whatever names you want, I've never at any point claimed that I'm not a dick. The one thing that I am most definitely not is a cheater. By shuffling my deck, I take it as someone indirectly accusing me of cheating, which in turn, makes me treat them with hostility. Be it a product of my environment or otherwise, I don't take kindly to attacks on my character or integrity. Where I come from, you only shuffle your opponent's deck if you think he's cheating (ie: it's meant as an insult), so that's the main explanation for the offense that I take to it.
Up until the recent double lotus tournament, nobody ever really shuffled my deck. Perhaps it was just the area, but I found it exceptionally rude (cultural differences and all, I guess).

Beyond that, however, was the ridiculously slow pace at which the games in Newington went, where almost all of my opponents had to spend around 2 minutes shuffling my deck after I had shuffled my deck for any reason. There would always be a good 10 minute wait between mulligans and sideboarding before games two and three. This was the larger issue that I was getting to. It is goddamn frustrating to spend more than half your match watching your opponent shuffle your deck. Especially when you have to take a mulligan. Or two. (Good god man, it's bad enough that I'm going to five cards, but now we don't even get to finish game three after I lose!!!) Almost every match I had went to time and by the end of the whole deal I was ready to start breaking chairs over people's heads. It's also not enough that I travelled four hours to attend a Shuffle: The Gathering tournament, but a good deal of my opponents spent excrutiatingly long periods of time just staring at their hands whenever they had priority.

So yeah, I still hate that shit. I'm bringing an egg timer to the next large tournament I go to so that I can set it for 3 minutes whenever my opponent picks up my deck. When you hear the *DING*, that's when my hand will be shooting up in the air and I'll be yelling "JUDGE!".

[Rane]

Firstly I completely agree with klown.  That said I take 'shuffling' as more than two cuts.  Before ANY game whether test, tourney, or otherwise I will always shuffle my deck sufficiently then put my deck down.  As soon as my opponent has finished shuffling his/her deck I will slide my deck across the table to them and ask for theirs.  I will then cut their deck once or twice (just depending on however many times my hands feel like doing it lol,) then slide theirs back.  My opponents normally looks at me like; "Why are we swapping decks..." then after seeing what I do they normally do the exact same and the game gets underway.  Playing with friends is even better as they know what to do.

I mean no disrespect in doing this and actually invite people to cut my deck.  If however they pile shuffle my cards I take offense, and if the riffle shuffle I WILL hurt them.  Fact of the matter is that no matter how someone stacks a deck, a cut or two can easily prevent their god-hand, albiet it not as well as riffling would, but it is effective enough.  There are people who cheat and I don't ever want to be called a cheat, which is why I always cut my opponents decks and invite them to cut mine.  If someone watches me shuffle, then they do more than cut my deck, that is just downright rude.  You are either insulting me or wasting my time.

This is all of course assuming my opponent actually shuffled their deck, or else I will riffle the shit out of their cards to scare them.  I can actually riffle well and won't damage the cards, but they get scared and remember to shuffle proficiently from there on.

[jpmeyer]

Wow, I didn't know people could actually physically riffle shuffle sleeved decks.

[gzeiger]

You know what, I was largely with you when the discussion was about respecting your opponent. If your attitude is just that you have a right to be a dick then I guess I don't really feel much need to be respectful at any level. This is what sets Type 1 apart from other formats, now that I've thought about it - it's not about shuffling or not, it's about not being a dick to your opponent.

[rvs]

Wow, I didn't know people could actually physically riffle shuffle sleeved decks.

It's actually quite easy.

[Dxfiler]

Fact of the matter is that no matter how someone stacks a deck, a cut or two can easily prevent their god-hand, albiet it not as well as riffling would, but it is effective enough.  

I'm going to flat out disagree on this statement.  A mere cut or two will certainly NOT stop most stacking methods.  Yes, it may prevent a god-hand, but the most common type of stacking is mana weaving and it is done by many players both intentionally and unintentionally.  This is the main reason why I shuffle my opponents decks: I want a real game and a mere cut just won't help increase the odds of achieving that goal.  It isn't so much a trust issue for me, I just want to increase the chance that the draws will be random.  If you take out 1 minute to shuffle someone's deck, you are helping to ensure that the game will rely on skill more than any other factors.


- Dxfiler

[Meddling Mike]

Fact of the matter is that no matter how someone stacks a deck, a cut or two can easily prevent their god-hand, albiet it not as well as riffling would, but it is effective enough.

I really wish this guy had read my big post about the standard methods of stacking a deck occur in response to Dr. Sylvan saying more or less the exact same thing. Cutting is NOT an adequate method of ensuring that your opponents deck is not stacked. People who plan to cheat don't just sit down, throw their god hand on top and hope you don't cut once or twice, they put the cards in a repeating order of "Spell, Land, Spell, Spell, Land" throughout the whole deck. Cutting does not undo this effect! either pile shuffling or riffle shuffling will unstack a deck stacked in this matter.

[snachos]

Personally i have shuffled my opponent's decks every time.  Each time I shuffle I respect my opponent's cards while making sure that their deck is suffeciently randomized.  It is nothing against my opponent, just a practice that I have incorporated into my pre-game routine.  Personally I riffle shuffle my own deck, but when handling my opponent's deck I am as gentle as can be expected.  I cut their deck in a random spot, put the two sides together, and let the cards gently fall into place mixing with each other all the while looking away from their deck.  I only repeat this procedure about 2-3 times spending under a minute total.  If this bothers my opponent then I would consider their further actions suspect and make an attempt to monitor* them closely just as a precautionary measure to keep myself from being a victim of cheating.  I don't subscribe to the whole "If you cheat you are only cheating yourself" mentality simply because there are rewards for cheating if you get away with it.  A $600 prize may not be much for some people, but to me that's a week's paycheck, and to other's it may be a sign of accomplishment.


*Note: I said monitoring, not rules lawyering.  If my opponent put a vampiric tutor in the graveyard before searching their library I am NOT going to call a judge.

[Danzig]

Kind of makes me glad that at this point in time the only way I have to shiffle is Ctrl S.  :lol:

[Rane]

For those of you quoting me and saying that a single cut won't un-stack a deck, I say der.  If you read my whole post you would see that I mentioned this was all assuming I saw my opponent shuffle sufficiently.  It doesn't need to unstack a deck, just prevent them from drawing that lotus they may have snuck near the top.  If you do not shuffle I will riffle your cards.

And yes it's quite easy to riffle shuffle sleeved cards, toploaders however are a different matter lol.

[kl0wn]

You know what, I was largely with you when the discussion was about respecting your opponent. If your attitude is just that you have a right to be a dick then I guess I don't really feel much need to be respectful at any level. This is what sets Type 1 apart from other formats, now that I've thought about it - it's not about shuffling or not, it's about not being a dick to your opponent.

Actually, I don't like being a dick. I'd much rather have a fun and enjoyable game with my opponent, but the whole watching me shuffle for a minute or two then picking up my deck and shuffling it even more bothers me. Especially when I let people know that it bothers me when they start shuffling my deck and they keep on doing it for another minute or two.

About this mana weaving/deck stacking thing though. How is it at all beneficial to have your deck set up like "spell, land, spell, spell, land..." in Type 1? Unless, of course, you're counting moxen as land, having excess lands in your hand when you're not ready to drop them is kinda bad.

[Jakedasnake]

Unless you know what lands you're stacking, that can be pretty dangerous. Imagine playing Hulk, and you stack your lands, but all you got are Tropical and Volcanic, when, if you had randomized, you most likely would have one of those Deltas or Seas.

I guess I'm wondering if, when stacking, the opponent knows what lands he's putting where.

[Dozer]

For the record, to whom it may concern: My experience from Dülmen is that everybody presents his deck to his opponent, and that both players cut the others' deck. Some do shuffle their opponents' deck, but even if they do, they usually do so about two or three times and are satisfied. (If they don't present, I generally ask if I may cut their deck. If they decline, I call a judge.)

I, personally, am gentle with my opponents' cards, as I expect him to be with mine. Also, I will interrupt if an opponent riffle shuffles my deck, because it makes me cringe. Pile shuffle or (most common) a gently executed side shuffle are acceptable methods.

I do not consider this as accusing my opponent of cheating. It is just second nature. We even do this among friends. The major reason is that if your opponent had a hand on your deck, you can be sure that YOU will not be accused of cheating in any way by your opponent. It rarely happens, but when it happens, you have an excellent defense. Also, opponents tend to get less pissed when I draw a god hand and they had a hand on my deck, because they gave it to me (even if only by cutting).  This keeps the atmosphere easy and the feelings good, and that is much preferrable to anything else.

Keep in mind, though, that I'm talking about sanctioned T1. But even in non-sanctioned play, I tend to follow this rules, because they make life easier and create a situation where the proceedings are clear and not a cause for misgivings.

Dozer

[jpmeyer]

Mana weaving is BAD because you will lose the game if your opponent pile shuffles you.

[Justinsane]

Normally i will wait to see if my opponent shuffles my deck.  I also normally ask a t1 if a can shuffle their deck seeing as they might have a lot of high valued cards.  

Why would there be cheating if you can draw a broken hand every time with decks like slaver?
just kidding

[Meddling Mike]

For those of you quoting me and saying that a single cut won't un-stack a deck, I say der. If you read my whole post you would see that I mentioned this was all assuming I saw my opponent shuffle sufficiently. It doesn't need to unstack a deck, just prevent them from drawing that lotus they may have snuck near the top. If you do not shuffle I will riffle your cards.

I really REALLY wish this guy had read my post explaining the benefits of mana threading over just throwing your god hand on top. I feel somewhat bad posting this, but nobody seems to understand how mana threading is done, and to combat it, you must know what to look for. Mana threading is done as follows.

1. Assuming your deck is 60 cards and has the approximate mana:spell ratio of 2:3 (24 mana sources, including solomoxen, give or take a few), all the mana sources are placed on the bottom of the deck before coming to the table at each match. This can be done far more discreetly than the perfect riffle stacking method I mentioned earlier, part of why it's so much more popular.

2. When the player sits down at the table he will pile shuffling making 5 piles, this is primarily what judges are instructed to look for at higher level events during the time designated for shuffling.

3. 5 Pile shuffling a second time will finish the mana threading.

4. Often times the cheater will cut their deck in such a way that it appears to be non-pile shuffling, while actually not destroying the order he has created.

As you can see it's not that difficult to thread your deck and make it appear as though it has indeed been randomized. Just trust me on this one folks, shuffle your opponents decks unless they are an extremely close friend, and if it's type I, show a little courtesy and consideration and either gently shuffle or pile shuffle.

@Jakedasnake
It's possible to set it up in such a way that you can have specific land in specific places when you draw your cards, but it's unpopular as it takes memorization and not as simple. But the chances of getting deltas and the proper mana sources is much better than without mana weaving as you are garunteed an opening hand with three lands and a fourth land on turn three. Mana threading basically removes the possibility of being mana screwed or mana flooded.

@Klown
yes, solomoxen are indeed included as part of the mana sources, and as I said earlier, it garuntees consistency, even if your opponent cuts, they're going to have an adequate mana base to start from, as well as a good amount of spells. Mana threading does not give god hands it gives amazing consistency and an unfair advantage.

[Toad]

In tournament conditions, I always :

1. Gently shake my opponent's deck so that all the cards slide down into their sleeve.

2. Pile shuffle my opponent's deck.

3. While doing this, I mentally count how many cards are in, then ask him how many cards he is running. I've won many games where my opponent's gave me a 59-cards deck. I also check his sleeves to see if they are marked or not.

4. Riffle Shuffle it a few times (except if I suspect my opponent to have mana threaded his deck, because a single pile shuffle will wreck him).

5. Cut it and gave it back to my opponents with the opening of the sleeves facing me.

Is that bad? No. Did someone ever complained? No. Stacking a deck is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too easy not to do that. During my last gaming cession, I had Ancestral Recall in opening hand 6 games in a row. Luck? Not at all. Card manipulation is really easy.

[Dozer]

As you can see it's not that difficult to thread your deck and make it appear as though it has indeed been randomized. Just trust me on this one folks, shuffle your opponents decks unless they are an extremely close friend, and if it's type I, show a little courtesy and consideration and either gently shuffle or pile shuffle.

How can another pile shuffle counteract cheating without cheating yourself? I mean, yes, you can do a four-pile shuffle which will negate the weaving, but that is not random, either, because you will just change the stacking, but not remove it. An opponent might accuse you of cheating him out of his mana, which you will effectively do (although he has to confess his cheating, too). This would make me feel like cheating, anyway.

In case you fear your opponent weaves his deck, the only true randomization would consist of spreading all cards randomly on the table and just sticking them together again without any kind of system. The closest thing you can do to emulate this is a side shuffle, putting cards on the back and front without a system. The problem: You are likely to look at some cards, which in turn becomes cheating. Best solution: Do a pile shuffle not by piling individual cards in piles, but several at once, taken in different unspecified amounts and placed on the piles without a system. That should take care of any stacking or weaving. Do this to your deck as well, and you should be fine.

(If you have NO indication of your opponent weaving or insufficiently randomizing, just cut the deck. That saves time.)

Dozer

[Kushluk]

I wouldn't want someone I dont know touching my stuff, in general. I would want even less for somone I know to go rifling through my costly type 1 deck. Nether would I shuffle someone else's deck.

Pile shuffling is ok with me - I do it myself (to a sane degree) it prevents landclumping and general random "you lose" draws. It makes the game slightly more fair.

[Meddling Mike]

because you will just change the stacking, but not remove it. An opponent might accuse you of cheating him out of his mana, which you will effectively do (although he has to confess his cheating, too). This would make me feel like cheating, anyway.

Look, if the guy came in hoping to cheat me, I'm not terribly inclined to be sympathetic if my entirely legal form of randomization screws his draw, so he has to take a mulligan, it's a small price to pay considering what he had in mind, maybe he'll think twice next time. I would also LOVE to see some guy call a judge after I clumped up the stacked deck he presented to me.

[Apollyon]

I don't riffle shuffle and request no riffle shuffling, as it's damaging to cards. I don't care what they do with my deck, pile-shuffling or multiple cutting, as I don't cheat. However, they don't know that, and I allow them to do that to show that I'm not cheating. I'm not doing anything intrusive, I don't check each and every single sleeve for irregularities, but I will shuffle.

It's partially a bad habit formed by T2 and Extended, and partially just to insure that their good hands were luck and not cheating. I don't state that "you are a cheater" by shuffling. I just do it for everyone. I don't know who you are, and I don't know if you are trustworthy. I don't want to take the chance of the person that I'm sitting down to play to be a cheater.

I remember hearing somewhere that the gesture of a handshake was from the Old West in America, where one would extend their gunhand to indicate that they weren't armed.

[jpmeyer]

Actually, on the judge's list there's been a heated debate about 3-pile shuffling because of the fact that you get into problems with mana-weaves since you can, whether you're doing it conciously or not, stack his deck.