[Discussion] Should the number of proxies be increased?

[TheRock]

Going to college doesn't allow me to have the money I want to to have power or Drains or Workshops.  I'm not trying to be offensive to anybody with this comment, I'm just trying to show a point.

Magic, however, is still a fun investment.  To have unlimited proxies ruins the idea behind this format completely.  It could remove a little arrogance, but between you and me, I love playing people like that in tournaments.  

If I were to pick any number of proxies to allow, it would be 12.

I am sick of playing in environments with no decks that use Workshops or Bazaars and am I saddened by the number of times I have heard that a good player has had their power stolen from them.  I think that it is time we try to change both.

12 proxies may be good for smaller tournaments, but I still think that for this format as a whole, keep it as it is.  This format should cost more to play now considering how well it is doing.

[Kowal]

.. and back in my day, people made insightful posts.

-Kerz

[/b][/color]

Lies.  That never happened.

[Meddling Mike]

Who told you that you had to play Slavery?

That's the reason people like MuzzonoAmi works hard at making budget lists, and PhantomTapeWorm makes decklists that just so happen to run no more than five expensive cards.

I remember when we did zero proxies, and honestly, I rather liked it despite the fact that I didn't own anything back then.

Kowal, I really think you're missing the point I'm trying to make here. Nobody told me I HAD to play slavery, but slavery is the deck I WANT to play but I can't because under the current system that sets me back 1000 dollars, a sum which I don't think most college kids like myself have sitting around in their bank accounts. It's not that there is anything wrong with budget decks, I'm just not terribly inclined towards any of them. Why should I have to attend mox tourney after mox tourney playing sui black because that's the only deck I can afford?

The point is that, under the current system, power has become so expensive that almost nobody starting fresh is going to be able to reasonably afford to get power, and this is killing the growth of the format. Why not allow people enough mobility that they can play what they want to play without making some exorbitant investment into power cards? I really don't think that's asking too much.

[Kowal]

By the same token, increasing proxy count means nobody will make the effort to get power when the prices are more reasonable for them.

And, in addition, you push the people that actually have it out of the game, because they become disgusted that their investment is no longer worth it.

While I agree it sucks you can't play what you want to play at any given moment, someone else in this thread summed up my sentiments already-  Magic may be a game, but it's a collectible card game, and an investment.  If you don't invest, tough luck.  We're already bending the rules so people can play things like Sui Black with the optimized lists so they feel they have a chance to win with what they have, but we aren't just going to step aside and let you print out your deck.

[Meddling Mike]

By the same token, increasing proxy count means nobody will make the effort to get power when the prices are more reasonable for them.

And, in addition, you push the people that actually have it out of the game, because they become disgusted that their investment is no longer worth it.

While I agree it sucks you can't play what you want to play at any given moment, someone else in this thread summed up my sentiments already- Magic may be a game, but it's a collectible card game, and an investment. If you don't invest, tough luck. We're already bending the rules so people can play things like Sui Black with the optimized lists so they feel they have a chance to win with what they have, but we aren't just going to step aside and let you print out your deck.

Look, I'm not opposed to making an investment, but I'm talking about an investment that I could reasonably afford, buying single piece of power would wipe my bank account clean. And the problem isn't that I can't play it at any given moment, on a whim as you seem to be putting it, it's the fact that my total yearly salary - college expenses can't even make me a 5 proxy legal deck with power prices the way they are these days. I really think you're also looking at things the wrong way with regards to power prices. I spoke with Samite Healer about the matter, as he would certainly stand to lose alot if power took a significant drop in value, and his impression was that the price of power wouldn't plummet if making 10 proxies the standard was to occur. You have to consider that making it ten proxies will open up type one to a number of new players, new players=new demand for cards, Demand going up + a set amount of supply that will never increase = Price increase. Granted, there certainly will be some people who will just get the necessary cards to play and never have any further ambition to buy power, but I think on the whole, new players will want to get power. My personal motivation is that it's simply a good investment, and that the sanctioned tourneys will always necessitate their existence. You should really read Dxfiler's post, as he addresses alot of your issues quite well.

Regardless of where you stand on the issue of proxies, there is not one person on this entire forum who doesn't want to see type 1 grow. Fact: Proxies help the game grow by bringing in new players who then start to play in tourneys and buy cards. I am a perfect example of this.

Two months ago I laughed at type 1. Didn't give a flying you-know-what about it. To me, it was the expensive casual player's format. Then I learned about 5 proxy tourneys. I thought to myself, wow, maybe I could play a budget deck in one of these and have some game. So I started building alot of decks that were comprised of much sharpie ink. When I tried to translate these decks into actual cards, I just fell up short even with five proxies. I became frustrated yet still really wanted to play. I'm just lucky enough to have some friends that allow me to borrow just enough power so that I can compete in 5 proxy tourneys...

Now imagine if it was 10 proxies. Do you know how much earlier I would have been regularly pumping $15 into tourneys? I'm not the only one. I know at least 10 players in my area who would jump right into the t1 tourney scene if it became 10 proxies. Sure, some old-school power-mongering players will get upset, but fact of the matter is that MORE PLAYERS WOULD REGULARLY ATTEND TOURNEYS. How is that bad? Yes, 10 proxies let's players have access to cards they didn't 'earn', but lets face it: that isn't going to seriously disrupt the people who have been firmly entrenched in the t1 metagame. That influx of new blood is just going to help you out in tourneys, so please don't start with the 'I don't want to lose to people who don't own power' B.S. If they haven't done their homework on the metagame and actually tested, the odds of them doing well are slim to none. If they have done their homework, they have every much a right to making a top 8 as the guy who sleeps with the power 9 under his pillow.

Bottom line: 10 proxies is the happy medium for t1 tourneys. More players will come, and the good ones will still be separated from the chaff. The value of cards won't plummet. If anything, now that people have more freedom of choice due to 10 proxies, they will start buying cards to help supplement their decks. The resulting growth of the format that would come from 10 proxies is a good thing.

- Dxfiler

[Klep]

By the same token, increasing proxy count means nobody will make the effort to get power when the prices are more reasonable for them.

I disagree.   The local store just started allowing proxy 10, but that has not affected my desire to get more power.  I want to get these crappy paper slips out of my sleeves, but as I am still in college I just cannot afford to drop several hundred dollars on a card again this year (I bought my Ancestral and Drains in September)

Don't forget, too, that we are talking about a limited quantity.  Not everyone can have power, because there isn't enough power for everyone.  Maybe this isn't a problem today, but someday there will be players who quite literally cannot get power.  As a community, we need to be looking ahead to that day.

[jpmeyer]

Have people forgotten that Type 1's popularity exploded with the institution of proxy tournaments?  And that with this explosion, due to proxies, has caused power prices to more than double since 2001?

[Dr. Sylvan]

GenCon should always be sanctioned so that WotC can officially recognize it, and so that there's a large audience of people who need real Power at least once a year. If that proves to be a consistently bigger and bigger event every year, Wizards will have a reason to run another huge sanctioned event at another time, creating a sort of psuedo-GP circuit, provided we show up enough. This amount of support would undoubtedly maintain the value of real Power for the foreseeable future.

[Razvan]

Sick... I emailed a local store here in TO about prices of power... and their reply was that they had them in stock...

Time Walk (Unlimited), (NM+) - $1000
Mox Emerald (Beta), (FW+/NM-) -  $850

This happened a few hours ago. I am still in shock.

This is insanity. Prices are canadian, so cut 20-25% for US$... but still...

Shock.

No wonder people want proxy tourneys. This is madness.

5-proxy is fine.

[Arrg]

Time Walk (Unlimited), (NM+) - $1000
Mox Emerald (Beta), (FW+/NM-) - $850

That's very, very, very, overpirced. Even Starcity only wants 550 for a NM beta emerald, and 500 for a NM Walk. Wow, I feel weird saying SCG is cheaper then someone. It's a little bit like blasphmey.

http://sales.starcitygames.com/customer/product.php?productid=16961&cat=&page=1&PHPSESSID=398f5f83f0371ec97b5bbd6b8770398b

http://sales.starcitygames.com/customer/product.php?productid=12080&cat=&page=1

EDIT- Forgot the links.

[Razvan]

It is crazy. Stores are going nuts. And this store (Skyfox Games, in Oshawa), doesn't need the money. Ugh.

This is milking the game for all it's worth until no one wants to play anymore. I remember back when I thought that $1500 for a playset of power is sickening (early last year). Now $1000 for the 4th or 5th most expensive card is the norm?

[Samite Healer]

Speaking as a hardcore collector/trader/dealer type person, I can say that I would be ALL FOR UNLIMITED PROXIES.  All the arguments made by people saying that "if there are unlimited proxies, then everyone will lose their investment" are completely untrue.  For example, if Workshop and/or Bazaar got the axe somewhere down the road, and its price plummeted, my friend and I would buy close to 100 copies of each.  Why?  Because we like the cards and collecting them is a hobby.

There are MANY people like us in the Magic community, so that if unlimited proxies were allowed, there are enough people that would continue to chase after the cards and keep the prices relatively high.  No one would "lose" their investment.  Many "players" refuse to believe that collectors exist, but there actually are lots of us.

[Jaapmans]

Speaking as a hardcore collector/trader/dealer type person, I can say that I would be ALL FOR UNLIMITED PROXIES.  All the arguments made by people saying that "if there are unlimited proxies, then everyone will lose their investment" are completely untrue.  For example, if Workshop and/or Bazaar got the axe somewhere down the road, and its price plummeted, my friend and I would buy close to 100 copies of each.  Why?  Because we like the cards and collecting them is a hobby.

There are MANY people like us in the Magic community, so that if unlimited proxies were allowed, there are enough people that would continue to chase after the cards and keep the prices relatively high.  No one would "lose" their investment.  Many "players" refuse to believe that collectors exist, but there actually are lots of us.

Uhm, no offense, but it's a card game! The cards are ment to play. I can understand that you want to have a mint set of every expansion set ever released and such, but 100 copies of Bazaar? What's the point? If you want to collect in such stupid number, go collect beach sand.

On another note (more on-topic) I think 10 proxies is fine. It allows people to proxie the most expensive stuff and still makes them to chase some of the cards. It's still a collectible cards game. Yes, overpriced cards should be easier available but like Zherbus said: don't proxy sol rings and stuff. That is indeed sickening.

My $0.02

[Razvan]

If you want to collect in such stupid number, go collect beach sand.

A novel idea.

However, I do think that having a large number of proxies is a good idea. Increasing it to 10 could be good. Unlimited? This might lead to record number of people piloting the exact same deck that Steve Menendian suggested might be the best at the time.

Maybe I am wrong, but diversity in decks might go down severely. How about having a deck that does badly against Dragon (by design, whatever), and then facing 8 fully-proxied Dragon decks? How does 0-8 sound?

I don't know... I think 5-10 proxies is best. This way you can still proxy most of the deck and maybe... innovate a little?

[jpmeyer]

While I don't know what the deck breakdown was at the last unlimited proxy Columbus tourney, the one that I was at actually had a pretty diverse deck breakdown.  It was just like a freak occurance that I played against almost all of the Tog decks that were there.

[snachos]

Personally I believe that 10 proxies is the perfect number.  I have 8 of the 9 pieces of power, missing the lotus of course, and I find that I can build most any deck with 10 proxies.  If I didn't have the power I would be using my proxies only on power itself and I would get to play with workshops or bazaars.  I still try to get all of the cards because proxies are ugly, but now i don't have to kill myself working for it in the process.  Magic has other expenses associated with it other than just trying to get the cards.  Every weekend I go through a full tank of gas as well as spending money on take-out in addition the the entrance fee of the tournement.  It all adds up fast, especially because I am a fat ass, I eat alot, and I am away from home so I can't cook.  If I had to add the price of aquiring a bunch of rares that I may never use again(tangle wire) it would be too much.  Granted a few rares here or there are not much compared to trying to buy power, but i can see the point of proxying lesser cards.  There is no refund  program for cards, no 30 day money back guarantee if you are dissatisfied with the card, and no warranty, but with proxies I can "try it before I buy it".  If the cards I just played with are good I will trade for them or buy them much like test driving a car.  I think it is also important to note that I would not be playing type 1 at all if it wasn't for proxies.

[ctthespian]

I think the true spirit of Type 1 shouldn't be elitism, but rather getting other, less fortunate members of the Magic community to share in the glory that is Type 1. This creates not only a larger community, but also a healthier one, because decks like Sligh/Sui/10landStompy should really have no reason to exist.

Why should decks like this have no reason to exist?  What about decks like Food Chain Goblins?  Oshawa Stompy?  I lost in a local unsanctioned event a few times to sligh decks.  Maybe it was my mistake to metagame against them, or maybe they still can work in the proper metagame.  Still don't say deck shouldn't exist.  It does exist there have been discussions about some of them in the forums.  Play with what you want people.

Regardless of where you stand on the issue of proxies, there is not one person on this entire forum who doesn't want to see type 1 grow.  Fact: Proxies help the game grow by bringing in new players who then start to play in tourneys and buy cards.  I am a perfect example of this.  

Two months ago I laughed at type 1.  Didn't give a flying you-know-what about it.  To me, it was the expensive casual player's format.  Then I learned about 5 proxy tourneys.  I thought to myself, wow, maybe I could play a budget deck in one of these and have some game.  So I started building alot of decks that were comprised of much sharpie ink.  When I tried to translate these decks into actual cards, I just fell up short even with five proxies.  I became frustrated yet still really wanted to play.  I'm just lucky enough to have some friends that allow me to borrow just enough power so that I can compete in 5 proxy tourneys...

Bottom line: 10 proxies is the happy medium for t1 tourneys.  More players will come, and the good ones will still be separated from the chaff.  The value of cards won't plummet. If anything, now that people have more freedom of choice due to 10 proxies, they will start buying cards to help supplement their decks.  The resulting growth of the format that would come from 10 proxies is a good thing.

-   Dxfiler

The fact that proxies make larger events possible is one of the only reasons I support them.  However people may think I’m crazy, but even an event events that don’t allow proxies are starting to pull more and more people even here in New England.  I know of two stores in CT alone that host sanctioned Type 1 Events often.  In fact one of the stores stopped doing alternating Type 1/Type II weekends and tried Type 1, 1.5, and extended because the Type II wasn’t pulling a crowd.  I wouldn’t be surprised if it turns into weekly Type 1.

If you look at WotC's stats, people will play even more when they can build the decks more easily.  The number of constructed tournaments doubled when Invasion came out (a block which was famous for how it seemed like just about every rare could be played in Constructed.)

The reason that I like something like unlimited proxies or pre-Legends only is because WotC has tried very hard to bring down the barrier to entry in Standard so it only contrasts even more strongly.  If I want to play Ravager Affinity at Regionals for instance, that deck has only about 7 rares in it, and that's the best deck in the format.

This is why when you argue, you don't use anecdotal evidence.

So where are these stats? Or is this anecdotal evidence?  As far as more people playing Type 1, look at my above response.  People are starting to pay more attention to Type 1 even without proxies.

8 is the optimal number of proxies in my mind, for a few untouched (in this thread, so far) reasons. If you want to play one of the top-end, uber- expensive decks, which uses 11-13 really expensive cards (7-10 of the power including LoA, as well as a playset of big uncommons), you still need to make a serious commitment. No matter how much money you have or how thoroughly you enjoy the game, you have to rationalize to yourself spending hundreds on just a few, or even one, card(s).

A new player, starting Type One from scratch, can play a good deck like fish, fully powered, with relative ease under eight proxies. This is perfect- because they'll see how easily they can build such a viable deck, and happily shell out the cash for the rest of the cards. Eventually they'll probably move on to a higher end deck. As an example, let's say the fish player who started Type One from scratch wants to move on to Keeper. By now, it's possible that they purchased a Mox or maybe Ancestral because they really liked Fish. When they want to move up to Keeper, they're going to happily spring for the other Blue based duals, but there will still be 10-12 expensive cards they need, depending on if they sought out any power of their own while playing fish. Now the same player needs to fill a gap of 4 cards to be able to play a top end deck like Keeper, and they are faced with 2 choices:
1. Play a decklist strictly sub-optimal compared to a fully-powered list, or
2. Fork over cash for a playset of Drains (again, this is just an example and it really fit most new players' transgression into competitive Vintage- whether they start off with Fish or Goblin Sligh or Suicide Black, it doesn't entirely matter)

It's likely that they'll buy the expensive staples they're missing. Even if they don't buy them right away and opt to play a sub-optimal list, they'll gradually pick up the expensive cards they're missing.

This is a well thought out statement.  I came up with the number 7 myself.  That allows a person to play most decks like Oshawa Stompy, Madness, Fish, Landstill, Food Chain and many others which all have a chance to compete.

GenCon should always be sanctioned so that WotC can officially recognize it, and so that there's a large audience of people who need real Power at least once a year. If that proves to be a consistently bigger and bigger event every year, Wizards will have a reason to run another huge sanctioned event at another time, creating a sort of psuedo-GP circuit, provided we show up enough. This amount of support would undoubtedly maintain the value of real Power for the foreseeable future.

I’ve seen this statement before, in fact I think Smennen made it some time ago.  However I don’t think one annual event would be enough to keep prices of the cards being proxied at respective current values.  If say 10, 20, or even unlimited proxies became more available.  There becomes much less sense for me to hang onto my Alpha P9, workshops and Bazaars.  I can sell them for thousands and proxy them.  Prices will drop if high proxy limits become mainstream.  The only reason I can hope is that the European events haven’t been allowing proxies for the most part.

I'm also torn about proxy tournaments. On one hand, 5 or 10 proxies are good for the people who can't afford to buy Power. I'm not sure about anyone else, but I'm a college kid with a car. Unless you want to pay my insurance, gas, college, room, board, meals, occasional take-out, etc, don't start talking about people who need Power as "uncommitted to the game", because that's BS. I've been playing for about 8 years, I've just never had enough discretionary funds (Extra money) to afford to buy Power, Workshops, Drains, Bazaars, etc.

Unlimited proxy tournaments are a joke. There is no reason to play cardboard Magic at all if you don't want to own cards. If I were to go to one, I'd print out proxies for every card in my deck, and place them in my sleeves over the real cards.

No proxy has it's merits. I see the argument that if you want to play high-caliber Magic, you need to invest the time and money. However, I also have noticed one thing: Winning decks have Power. And the prize Power is usually sold for money. Decks with Power > Decks without Power.

Better deckbuilders and better players will win, I'm not denying that. But people shouldn't be punished for not having around 2500 USD hanging around to buy Power, IMO.

Were not ALL saying you aren’t committed, and your not being punished.  You just aren’t lucky enough to have the cards to make fully powered decks.  I remember my first Type 1 tournament.  I dragged a crappy mono blue deck to the event and I remember getting wasted by completely black bordered goodness.  Beta Moxes, Juzams Ice Storms and Sinkholes, Erhnams.  I got smashed.  Did I bitch?  No.  Did I recognize the good cards?  Yes.  Could I afford them at the time, or even find them?  No.  However, I own them now.  And frankly some high school or college kid doesn’t have any more right to make fake cards and play with them I would have back in my college days.

Speaking as a hardcore collector/trader/dealer type person, I can say that I would be ALL FOR UNLIMITED PROXIES.  All the arguments made by people saying that "if there are unlimited proxies, then everyone will lose their investment" are completely untrue.  For example, if Workshop and/or Bazaar got the axe somewhere down the road, and its price plummeted, my friend and I would buy close to 100 copies of each.  Why?  Because we like the cards and collecting them is a hobby.

There are MANY people like us in the Magic community, so that if unlimited proxies were allowed, there are enough people that would continue to chase after the cards and keep the prices relatively high.  No one would "lose" their investment.  Many "players" refuse to believe that collectors exist, but there actually are lots of us.

Jeff you of all people know that I’m a collector.  I’ve invested money into that collection.  Sure I love the cards, the art and the game.  However if cards that I thought were going to retain value dropped significantly because proxies, I’m going to be quite upset.  Now the flip side would be the unforeseen happening of reprints.  Then I would feel far less upset and I don’t think reprints would hurt the value of cards nearly as much as limitless or greater numbers of proxys.  Also despite how many “collectors” are out there value wouldn’t be retained by them alone.  Once a collector saw prices start to drop they would wait till they were very low to grab them.


Again, the 5 proxy system works.  Local events with 5 proxies get upwards of 30-40 people and give away at least a piece of power.  Bigger events like Waterbury reach almost 200.  So let’s say that Waterbury reached 10 proxies.  How many people will show up then?  Can that many people be accommodated?  Is it worth making a trip for an event that would almost be single elimination?  Magic is not solely a game of skill; the element of luck is very much there.  (Remember the NE Championship, which turned out to be a $15 single elimination event because a round was cut.)  Also, would there be enough time for a single event to take place?  

I had the thought recently that huge events may not be worth the time and energy put into them.  You chances of winning are pretty daunting of you think about it.  There are circumstances that determine your Top 8 shot that you can’t control no matter how skilled you are.

Vintage magic is popular.  We don’t need to feel like there aren’t players out there and were a dying breed anymore.  Five proxies brings people to events, if some people can’t come because they need 10 well then they have to find ways to be able to attend them.  Five proxies also allows most people to make a competitive deck.  Maybe 7 or 8 proxies tops should be the limit, but 10 or more is just silly.

-Keith

[jpmeyer]

The "anecdotal evidence" is saying "Yeah well I was able to buy power" or "Yeah well I can trade 5 Pale Moons up to a Mox at a PTQ ."  The stats in question are here:

Constructed Singles (Standard, Extended & Block):

1997: 11,000
1998: 20,000
1999: 20,000
2000: 33,000
2001: 47,000

This is from Mark Rosewater's column "Playing to Type 1" from July 15, 2002.  Is that adequate enough documentation?  Note as well that in my earlier post I made sure to indicate that I was using WotC tournament stats for this rather than personal observations.

[Elric]

Suppose that Black Lotus was banned tomorrow.  Gone for good, with no chance of it ever leaving the banned list.  What do you think would happen to its price?  Would you sell me your lotus for $50?  

Looking at the price of power now, assume that all tournaments allow 5 proxies (not actually true, I know).  Black Lotus is worth quite a bit more than Ancestral, even though Ancestral is the better card in most decks.  Plus, everyone can always use one of their 5 proxies on Lotus, so there should be no reason to buy it for $150-350 more than the other power.  Thus, assuming that every deck wants Lotus, Ruby, Walk, Ancestral, and Sapphire as its 5 proxies, getting a Lotus is never better for playing tournaments than getting a Jet, the 6th most expensive piece of power.  With Jet at $275 and Lotus at say, $525, that is $250 of value from factors besides tournament play.  This is a little simplistic, but I would guess that if Lotus was permanently banned tomorrow, it would still be worth at least $250.

In many ways, tournaments with more proxies will only increase the demand for power.  If I managed to get a Black Lotus tomorrow, it wouldn’t do me much good if tournaments allowed only 5 proxies, because I still would be limited to a small range of decks.  If tournaments allowed 0 proxies, I’d be playing Suicide with a Lotus.  

Imagine if the NE championship had 10 proxies.  Then, some people (probably powered) wouldn’t bother to come, knowing that their chances to win were less in a field where their opponents faced less budget constraints.  Many people who could not built truly competitive decks without 10 proxies would come, so overall turnout would increase.  

If tournaments all had proxies, ceteris paribus, the Black Lotus prize would be worth less because not as many people need it for decks.  However, more people are playing type 1 tournaments, which increases demand.  While it is certain that people who own power will win less often (more players, less who own power, but on a more even playing field), the price of power might increase.  

My group of friends plays type 1 now that we have agreed that the price of power is the price of ink.  I am sure that tons of people play with proxied power fairly regularly.  Whether they play competitive proxy type 1, though, remains to be seen.  If all tournaments are 5-proxy, they will never get to play an actual tournament.  

If proxies get a lot of these players into the format, some will really want the real thing and demand for power will increase.  Smmenen sells a mox when he wins a tournament, because he has plenty.  If I won a mox at an all-proxy tournament, of course I’d keep it!  1 is a good place to start.

[jdl]

I voted for zero proxies, because I prefer that tournaments be sanctioned.  I'm not against people being able to use power without paying a lot for it, which is why I am strongly in favor of reprints.

In the end, this thread is pointless for a few simple reasons.

* The DCI isn't going to allow proxies.
* You can do whatever you want with your non-sanctioned tournaments.
* Since day 1 this game has been about playing with the cards that WotC printed.  It has always been that way, and everyone knows it coming in.  It's an expensive hobby.

If you want to use proxies at your local tournaments, go nuts.  Keep pressuring WotC to issue reprints while you're at it.  Point out the decrease in the number of Type-1 sanctioned events compared to the number of unsanctioned events as support.

[Apollyon]

Were not ALL saying you aren?t committed, and your not being punished. You just aren?t lucky enough to have the cards to make fully powered decks. I remember my first Type 1 tournament. I dragged a crappy mono blue deck to the event and I remember getting wasted by completely black bordered goodness. Beta Moxes, Juzams Ice Storms and Sinkholes, Erhnams. I got smashed. Did I bitch? No. Did I recognize the good cards? Yes. Could I afford them at the time, or even find them? No. However, I own them now. And frankly some high school or college kid doesn?t have any more right to make fake cards and play with them I would have back in my college days.

First, that first part isn't to you, just the person who noted that people who don't own Power aren't "committed enough". I'm saying that because of the fact that money makes decks in T1 better, proxies should be allowed in limited quantities to partially negate a vast difference in wealth. The difference between T2 and T1 is that in T2, you can make a good deck for about 200 USD. In T1, a good deck costs upwards of 500 USD, if not more.

And where did I ever make a claim to a right to proxies? I like them, but I don't claim a right to proxies. I'm just saying that, IMO, proxies in limited quantities are a good thing for the metagame and for T1 in general.

[Smmenen]

I voted for zero proxies, because I prefer that tournaments be sanctioned.  I'm not against people being able to use power without paying a lot for it, which is why I am strongly in favor of reprints.

In the end, this thread is pointless for a few simple reasons.

* The DCI isn't going to allow proxies.
* You can do whatever you want with your non-sanctioned tournaments.
* Since day 1 this game has been about playing with the cards that WotC printed.  It has always been that way, and everyone knows it coming in.  It's an expensive hobby.

If you want to use proxies at your local tournaments, go nuts.  Keep pressuring WotC to issue reprints while you're at it.  Point out the decrease in the number of Type-1 sanctioned events compared to the number of unsanctioned events as support.

No what you say is pointless.  Sanctioned tournaments are pointless in Vintage.  The points mean nothing as they don't get you byes, or even qualify you for anything, let alone the Vintage Champ.  

The only purpose to sanctioned events is to get a good judge and rules enforcement, and quite frankly, the correlation between that and sanctioned is quite slim - there are some pretty bad judges out there and people who think they are judges.

Steve Menendian

[j42687]

Hey, im new to vintage, and I don’t own power. I have come to vintage because type 2 is dumb and uninteresting. I would vote for 5 proxy, it seems reasonable, although the shop near my place (C and J collectibles), I don’t think they allow proxies, someone can correct me if im wrong. Unlimited proxies is disgusting to imagine. Someone is gonna go out and proxy a duress….bah! People who want to play magic competitively should have all the “affordable” cards, and the power and whatnot should be able to be proxied. It is unfair for the economically disadvantaged, that they do not get to play the most exciting format. OR maybe WotC should produce “Official Proxies”, reprints of the cards with different borders or something that are tournament legal, but cost maybe 25 dollars or something? I dunno, that’s just an idea im trying to throw an idea out there.

[ctthespian]

@Apollyon:  I didn't mean to directly refer to you.  I was using your writing as a base for my reply to a feeling that many people have.  You can be a person that loves Vintage magic and follows articles discussions and the like.  Your mind for the game, skill and dedication aren't in question.  It's how you acquire the cards to compete.  Proxy events were made as an incentive to get more players to events so it was worthy to hold a tournament.  However over the time that they have been held many people seem to feel as if they are now a new standard.  That's where I get the feeling that people think it's their right to use them.

@Elric:  Banning cards changing card value is different from proxy events doing it.  Similar to my feelings about reprints, which won't happen, it's the creators of the game that are making the change not the mob.  The mob having the power to determine dramatic price shifts is what worries me.  As far as many people with power not competing in large events with 10 or more proxies.  I don't think they would shy away at all.  If anything people with those types of collections should be in even a better position to throw $15 for a chance to win the prize.  My point is that if events allow even more proxies and they become larger, will they come to a point where they are unmanageable?

@JP:  Thanks for the numbers.  Those however are a bit skewed in WOTC's defense of their lack of attention to Type 1.  Type 1 was never really a sanctioned event and that's all those numbers support.  They start quoting numbers around the big decline in Type 1 tournaments and interest.  As I've said before I see weekly Standard events having less attendance that Vintage ones.  The number of Type 1 tournaments has most likely well exceeded then numbers that WOTC displayed then.  However these events are not sanctioned.

On reprints and something more about JP's point.  JP mentioned stats supporting that standard was easier to play and thus the larger numbers.  However the truth of the matter is that that ease has the cost if you wish to be competitive.  Those costs keep WOTC developing new sets.  Ironically Vintage is probably one of the easiest formats to invest in over time for the casual or semi committed player.  You buy cards and you can always use them.  Thus you can invest over time and still have what you had 2 years from now.  This is one of the reasons I think WOTC will never make Vintage more easily "accessible" to the masses.  If they reprinted Vintage staples even beyond the power nine what would be the consumers reason to buy the number of packs to meet the same volume of the rotating sets that Standard goes through.  I buy far less product as a Vintage only player than Standard players.  Still it’s the almighty dollar that controls the reason that cards will not be reprinted.  WOTC R&D thinks that many of the cards on the old “Reserved List” are too distorting to the Standard type game.  They won’t risk their cash cow by reprinting many of the cards on that list.

Therefore it should be our endeavor to make the barrier easier for players to cross into competitive Vintage events.  The 5 proxy system is working as tournament numbers will show and events are growing.  Don’t change what’s working.

-Keith

[jpmeyer]

Oh yeah, you can't use the Type 1 numbers because Type 1 is heavily unsanctioned, but seeing how I can't remember the last time I saw an unsanctioned Constructed tournament, they're applicable for that, which is all that I was referencing them for.

While the whole "Type 1 is cheaper than Standard" argument went out the window 3 years ago, it is important to note while card prices have skyrocketed in Type 1, it's become more accessible through proxies.  The reason that I switched from Type 1 to Standard for a long period of time was because I wasn't going to spend $2000 on one deck when I could spend $150 and get multiple decks--and for anyone that wants to say "OMG BUT THEN THEY ARE WORTHLESS IN A YEAR," well, remind me again: how good are Tog and U/G are in Type 1 again?

[ctthespian]

I'm not saying that every Standard card becomes worthless after they rotate out.  However I'm sure even with the amount of money I've thrown into my collection that I have probably spent far less than a Standard player who has played for just as long as I have.  Standard is still more expensive than Vintage will ever be.  I know many people who draft on a weekly basis in addition to buying boxes of new sets.  Drafting every week would equal around $1200 a year.  You have to see the logic that Vintage Magic requires far less payout in the primary market that directly goes to WOTC.  Also despite the thousands of dollars I've thrown into my collection I could sell it and still make a hefty profit for my investment.  Most Standard players probably cannot calim the same.

-Keith

[Ric_Flair]

I don't understand how the threads about the number of proxies become veiled, and logically craptastic, threads about socialism v. capitalism.  Keep your (poorly formed) political beliefs to yourself and stay on topic.  The question before the thread is this:  how many proxies do you think are needed and why?  Let's see if we can keep the discussion about what is good for the format and leave out poor attempts to invoke Locke and Adam Smith.  

I, for one, think that proxies are a good thing.  Here are my reasons:

1) Having lots of Vintage events is a good thing.
2) Having lots of players at Vintage events is a good thing.
3) Having lots of different decks at Vintage events is a good thing.
4) Having proxies allows for 1-3.

I think the no proxy crowd is crazy.  But I think the proxy everything crowd is being unnecessarily strident on this issue.  Compromise is important.  CT Thespian has one of the best collections I have ever seen.  He and those like him have supported the format for a long time.  They have a vested interest in insuring that cards remain valuable.  Furthermore, people like Stok, who host events for us to play at, also have a vested interest in keeping cards of relative scarcity at high values.  So while in theory unlimited proxies are fine, there is no need to go that far.  I really believe that the number of people who would play with 10 proxies is not that much smaller than the number of people who would play with unlimited proxies.  In the end, the amount lost, moving from unlimited proxies to 10 is not that great and it keeps intact interests of important parts of the Vintage community.

But the same logic holds for those opposed to moving away from 5 proxies.  At 5 proxies there are still a number of decks that cannot be made without shelling out enormous sums of cash.  Essentially at 5 proxies you force people to play Keeper, Tog, and a few other control decks.  Ideally, the proxy policy would be based on that number of cards that would allow for the most tournaments, with the most players, using the widest variety of decks without hurting the interests of dealers and long time players.  What that number is, I don't know, but I think 5 is clearly too low.  It automatically restricts the number of decks to a handful.  Workshop, Mask, and Bazaar based decks have been the traditional decks unplayed, but in recent months with the increase in Mana Drain's price, I am afraid that with 5 proxies we are going to lose Tog and Keeper too to the ranks of ultra expensive decks.

In sum, any policy should be made with an eye towards the three goals I laid out above, but also taking into consideration the interests of various parts of the community.  Any proxy policy thus should have the following characteristics:

1) Administratively Simple.  If we take the approach of making a list of legal proxies we will rapidly find making this list to be a full time endeavor, and while I like policy discussions I also like playing.  If we set a price limit it will be difficult to find which set of prices we use and how to deal with flucuations that would put a given card in the range.  Set based rules are simpler, but even then there are confusions.  As such, for purposes of administration, I think that the easiest approach is a number of proxies without regard to which cards are actually fake.

2) Consistently Used.  Before TMD this was not an issue, but now we have this amazing resource and it helps standardize the format.  So even though there is no sanctioned events (or few), a consistent rule would benefit everyone.  In essence, TMD has become the Vintage DCI, so a policy announced here and supported by TMD members would have the effect of standardizing the number.  This would allow everyone to be on the same page, whether they are in Ohio playing at Steve's event or in Hadley.  Now I recognize that this will take away from TO's autonomy a bit, but really it is not a big deal.  So long as the number decided on and supported by the community is set, all TOs have to do is meet that minimum number, they are always free to allow MORE proxies.  A consistently used standard will help the game a great deal.  And it needs to be consistent not only across the country, but at each iteration of a given event.

3) Must balance concerns over format diversity with the needs of the community.  Any standard should meet the three interests above, those of many event, with many players, playing many different decks, without doing undue harm to certain interests in the community.  These interest, the older players and dealers, are vitally important.  They give us a place to play and cards to win.  Without them there is no Vintage.  So I think all of the strident proxy everything people need to realize that though they may be theoretically in the right, their obstinancy is damaging.  Ultimately what's the fun if we all have decks of lands with stickers on them and no place to play.

[ctthespian]

Here's a quick chime in on decks that are competitive that require little proxies.  This is proxing cards over $100

Food Chain Goblins  3
Fish variants            4
Oshawa Stompy       6
TOG                        10 (11 w/ berserk, 15 w/ drains)
UR or UW Landstill    5 (9 w/ drains)

Madness, Salvery, Dragon, TNT and such are all well over the TOG mark.

If drains were to reach prices over $100, for an italian drain I could see upping the limits of proxies to say 10.  However the most I would go with would be 6-8 currently.  Allowing this many proxies allows even a budget player to play a competitive Vintage deck.

-Keith

[Apollyon]

Sanctioning T1 tournaments means that the TO and judges are responsible to something higher than themselves. I'm not going to debate the virtues of that here or now.

Ric, the reason that proxy debates become political is the fact that the debate is who we give power to. Proxies allow people who don't have lots of money to play good decks. No proxies means personal responsibility and priorities. However, no proxies has the unfortunate side effect of people with lots of Power beating people without Power.

[factorx]

My personal opinion is that, as a standard, 5 is resonable, and 10 is desireable.  My view is that, if you own all of the power 9(10), and with an additional 10 proxies you cant beat some noob who proxies power and drains, then its your fault for having no deck building skill whatsoever.  Theres no excuse for owning power, being givin 10 proxies, and then losing to someone who only proxied power, if anything it gives the power owners MORE of an advantage.  

There should be MORE tournaments that allow unlimited number of proxies, simply because that tournament wouldnt revolve around what you own, it would revolve around how skillful you are.  The people who always win tournaments in a 5 or 10 proxy format should still always win tournaments in an unlimited format, because that shows their true skill and knowledge of the game.  I know I would T4 every tournament I went to if I was allowed unlimited proxies, and I know there are huge amounts of people who feel the same way.