Gay/r: my attempts at a primer

[firebird365]

I noticed that you're running no Misdirections anywhere; they're getting better, and pitch counters (even if they're situational) are awesome. What do you think about adding 2 to the MD?

Also, add Annul to the honorable mentions list; it's been showing up in some decklists and it has some merit to it.

[FireFall26]

ANNUL IS THE SHIT!  When I played landstill at a Cape Cod tourny, I sided it in EVERY match except 1.  Slaver, slaver, tubbies, and stax.  It is a great card in the matches where misdirection is bad, and merits a sb spot in every landstill sb.  Countering huge spells for 1 mana is too good to pass up.

[Chaos Blade]

Annul has been pretty good. Its one of my options for my 2 meta slots. If I go in a heavy artifact/ some control meta I'll use those. Stoping accerleration and threats for one is pretty good for a tempo based deck I believe.

[Justinsane]

I was never a fan of misd, i think that annul or another stifle would be a better addition.

[Raven Fire]

hunter is FAR better than fire/ice in fish
and u really do want 7 lavamancers in ur deck

Thanks for the laughs.

[Fish-one]

May be is a crazy idea.....
did someone try to play  2 Puppeteer ?

In a meta more or less aggro can stop some oppo creature or
help to put down oppo life untapping the lavamancer ...

THanks
  F

[xaos]

You dont want my opinion?  Done.

[GoGoChiaki]

Serindib efreet is good if you have a way to sac him but not if you dont because sometimes he can kill you and yhou already are to much damage with fetchlands and fows.  This just makes the aggro matchup worse because now you are helping them with killing you.  And also in the mirror they can curiosity him and that would make you give them a card every turn!!  And then he doesnnt do anything about spells that hit later in the game and what happens when they cast yawgwill you lose?  Voidmage can stop spells.  The only thing hes good for is beating madness but he still cant stop a wurm only rootwalla and aquamoeba.  

Why is the list wrong with voidmage?  Is the list that phantom tapewurm use not the best?  He is the master of fish so why not just do what he says?

[xaos]

Is the list that phantom tapewurm use not the best?

Maybe, but I feel the deck would stand to get better with some constructive criticism.  This doesn't exactly cut it.

 He is the master of fish so why not just do what he says?

That's just a stupid reason to leave a decklist alone.  This a metagame deck, and as such it requires continuous changes to stay competitive.


Regarding the move from Open t1 to the Newbie forum, I'd really like this post moved back-  I would really like to keep the posts as good as possible, and I'm sure the moderators know that constructive posts are almost as hard here in this forum, as they are in the Sui forum.  Please, help me improve the quality of the readers and posters.

[xzero]

Serindib efreet is good if you have a way to sac him but not if you dont because sometimes he can kill you and yhou already are to much damage with fetchlands and fows.

That is one of the worst run-on sentences I have ever encountered.  Not to mention that the content of it was terrible.  If you alternately-casted all the Force of Will's in your deck, and used 8 fetchlands, you would still be at 8.  And have eight lands in play and countered four of your opponents spells on your way to winning.  And the Serendib Efreet would be kicking almighty ass.

[GoGoChiaki]

Maybe, but I feel the deck would stand to get better with some constructive criticism. This doesn't exactly cut it.

I dunnu see how the deck can be better it is already the best you can do on no money becaue it doest use power.  change the creatures and you have a deck that is not as good exept in certain matches were you get lucky cause your creature is only good vs this matchup.  with serindib he is only good against bolts but even then he is only pinging you all the turns so you are helping them.  i also dont see how he is good vs any of the teir 1 decks like hulk or slaver or draw7.  the voidmage is good vs all of the tier 1 decks because he can do his ability to stop spells instead of being just a beater that is immune to bolt.
 
ANd this is like trying to improve the slavery list from the slaver master and it is crazy.  how are you going to make a better list than the slaver master?  you cant becuaes his list is the best one and it is keep on winning tournaments.  you are trying to fix it but it doesnt need a fix even though you thi8nk it does.

That's just a stupid reason to leave a decklist alone. This a metagame deck, and as such it requires continuous changes to stay competitive.

Itis not stupid because i have seen the phantom tapewurm at tournaments and he is plays the same deck all the time and he always wins.  you think this is a metagame deck but it is metagame deck as much as any other deck with control inside of it.  this deck isnt' wins becuase it is metagaming the right way but becuase it is good and has the best build.  you are probably sayin it is mategame deck because it has null rod but it is not a metagame cared in type 1 where all decks are running artifact.  drawing cards is not metagame deck and neither is free counterspells or wasteland   that is just necessary for type 1 decks that are doing control.  grim lavamancer is not megagame deck and the rest of the creatures can say the same because they all fit in together and work to make the deck better.  changing anything in this deck should have a really good reason because i see it being just fine and its still working so why try to change it?  you were saying the voidmage is bad but he fits with the lavamancer and what i said before about tier 1 decks.  Efreets does not efect tier 1 decks.

[Moxlotus]

Why is the list wrong with voidmage?  Is the list that phantom tapewurm use not the best?  He is the master of fish so why not just do what he says?

That is like saying
"Shockwave is the master of Landstill and Dragon, if you change the deck at all you are stupid"
or
"Zherbus is the master of Keeper, play his deck and do not attempt to innovate"
or
"Why bother trying to find tech or attempting to evolve good decks when you can just netdeck"

[Shadow Ninja]

The fundamental difference between changing, say, Smemnarch's MEandeck Slaver build versus changing Phantom Tapeworm's Gay/r build is that Meandeck Slaver is a deck that can be optimized theoretically, whereas Gay/r is a deck that can only be optimized for the metagame in which you plan to play it.  It's a metahate deck, and as such continual discussion on what does and doesn't work is in fact necessary, and things that worked well before may change depending on shifts in the metagame.  Meandeck Slaver, however, doesn't have much room for real solid improvement at this point, leaving the only real consideration to what to put in the sideboard or perhaps maindeck, depending on the extremity of the metagame you plan to play in.

In short, Gay/r revolves around hating the metagame, whereas Meandeck Slaver sees that as a secondary concern next to its powerful brokenness.

[GoGoChiaki]

The fundamental difference between changing, say, Smemnarch's MEandeck Slaver build versus changing Phantom Tapeworm's Gay/r build is that Meandeck Slaver is a deck that can be optimized theoretically, whereas Gay/r is a deck that can only be optimized for the metagame in which you plan to play it.  It's a metahate deck, and as such continual discussion on what does and doesn't work is in fact necessary, and things that worked well before may change depending on shifts in the metagame.  Meandeck Slaver, however, doesn't have much room for real solid improvement at this point, leaving the only real consideration to what to put in the sideboard or perhaps maindeck, depending on the extremity of the metagame you plan to play in.

In short, Gay/r revolves around hating the metagame, whereas Meandeck Slaver sees that as a secondary concern next to its powerful brokenness.

I just say that this is not a metagame deck and I give reasons, but then you say that it is but you dunnu back up your reasons you just say that it is and have no reason.  I think you are confused.  you are compare to meandeck slave.dec and you are saying it is not metagame deck but you should maybe explain what you mean by metagame deck.
meandeckslave.dec is a combo deck and has some controltype cards that are very broad like fow and chalice for the void.  fish is aggrotype deck that has some control cards in it that are very broad like fow and null rod.  but you are saying that meandeckslaveer.dec is ultimate and fish is metahate??  this is crazy thinking that you hered from people in the mIRC and is not even thought out.
I proof my point with the deck that the phantom tapewurm is used in mariland.  he is never change it and the metagame changes but he still is win.  if metagame is change but decklist is same and deck is still win   then how can it be metagame deck????????????????



And moxlutus you are say that we should not innovtae but we can.  just why innovate if something is working?  metagme changes and deck changes   or it doesnt becuase it dunnu need to change to win.  

maybe everyone herre is just bad with the phantom tapewurm deck and thinks there is something to change to make it better when there is nothing to change its just them thta is bad  HUK HUK ^^

Sentences start with a capital letter. Your posts are really hard to read for someone that does not use English as a mother language. Stop using abbreviations please.
-- Toad

[xzero]

I think you are confused.

We all are, after trying to read your posts.

[Googleboots]

Yeah...This is my first post on the new TMD, but I have some shites to say:

You shouldn't write a primer just because you T4'ed a tourney, I came in 1st seat out of 8 rounds back when Lincoln still had power tournies. You don't see me trying writing a primer. After playing this deck for a long time, certain things come to light:
 1) Voidmage is the late-game hero. Your deck only has so much gas to lock your opponent early on. If you have a Voidmage out and 0 in hand with a standstill, and they pop it, would you rather have the option to counter or HOPE to have the option to remove 2 of the cards you just drew to hopefully stop what they just played? They deserve their 3 slots.
 D) 4 Curiosities is a must in this, as is keeping the creature count as it is. It's almost the same as playing 3 AKs, there's like...no point (without the whole goodness of having 3 'yarded).
 R) I haven't played T1 in like 3 months, but I don't think it's necessary to messy the manabase(not saying yours is horrible). I think you should go back to the original
4 Volc.
5 Strip
5 Fetch
4 Factory
2 Conclave
2 Island
1 Sapph
1 LoA

But that's just my opinion.  You should up the Spiktail back to 4 and bring the MisD back in for ph34r factorness.

 2)In all my time of playing this deck, the ONLY slots that EVER came into question was the 3x Daze(from PTW's original list) because too many times I was stuck with those as my only counters. So, I put in 3 Stifles for them to please everyone. It helped immensly against Dragon and scepter, stopped Kegs(from random.sui), and basically killed and chance my opponent would have had. My teammie Pest(Paul) played Stifles over Daze finding the same wonderful results in touney, so for the NE meta, that's what I would do. The only thing that would change place to place would be the SB.

[Moxlotus]

The fundamental difference between changing, say, Smemnarch's MEandeck Slaver build versus changing Phantom Tapeworm's Gay/r build is that Meandeck Slaver is a deck that can be optimized theoretically, whereas Gay/r is a deck that can only be optimized for the metagame in which you plan to play it.  It's a metahate deck, and as such continual discussion on what does and doesn't work is in fact necessary, and things that worked well before may change depending on shifts in the metagame.  Meandeck Slaver, however, doesn't have much room for real solid improvement at this point, leaving the only real consideration to what to put in the sideboard or perhaps maindeck, depending on the extremity of the metagame you plan to play in.

In short, Gay/r revolves around hating the metagame, whereas Meandeck Slaver sees that as a secondary concern next to its powerful brokenness.

I just say that this is not a metagame deck and I give reasons, but then you say that it is but you dunnu back up your reasons you just say that it is and have no reason.  I think you are confused.  you are compare to meandeck slave.dec and you are saying it is not metagame deck but you should maybe explain what you mean by metagame deck.
meandeckslave.dec is a combo deck and has some controltype cards that are very broad like fow and chalice for the void.  fish is aggrotype deck that has some control cards in it that are very broad like fow and null rod.  but you are saying that meandeckslaveer.dec is ultimate and fish is metahate??  this is crazy thinking that you hered from people in the mIRC and is not even thought out.
I proof my point with the deck that the phantom tapewurm is used in mariland.  he is never change it and the metagame changes but he still is win.  if metagame is change but decklist is same and deck is still win   then how can it be metagame deck????????????????



And moxlutus you are say that we should not innovtae but we can.  just why innovate if something is working?  metagme changes and deck changes   or it doesnt becuase it dunnu need to change to win.  

maybe everyone herre is just bad with the phantom tapewurm deck and thinks there is something to change to make it better when there is nothing to change its just them thta is bad  HUK HUK ^^

To make it work better. To find cards and configurations that improve matchups.  To look for something to give you an edge over anyone else.  To find something that works well that others won't expect coming from Fish.  Look at what Jacob Orlove did with the deck, removed red and added green.  I bet people shat themselves when he played River Boa followed by Standstill.  He got like second at the dual lotus tournament.  Also PTW changes his sideboard frequently, although his like mine always looks completely random and fucked up in general.  

Fish is a metagame deck, just you can play it in several metas. For example if your meta is filled with budget aggro and TNT you will not do well with Fish. If you expect combo throw in Mis'D.  If you expect workshop, add in the 4th null rod and make sure to have extra artifact hate.  Some even MD Goblin Vandal in workshop heavy areas.  Fish wins by putting out little homosexual men while using cards like Null Rod to make your opponent's draws flaccid and weak.

[GoGoChiaki]

But no one is still telling me what is metagame deck vs normal deck.  you say pahntom tapewurm.dec is metagame but if it is played in all different types of metagames i dunnu understand.  slavery.dec is bad matchup has u/g maddenis.dec and so in metagame of madenis then slaver.dec is bad metagame deck.  then you are to modify the slaver to compete like you are to modifying the fish.dec.  You are saying what does not make since to me with metagame.dec and metahate.dec nad normal deck.

If i am changing sideboards than i am metagame deck to or not?  you are making silly classification that is not right and you dunnu even explain about it.  and then you problly hered that from mIRC and think it was something good to say but dunnu even think it through.

Changing sideboards is so much not as big a deal as it is to make the real deck worse when you are "evolve' it.  You are change proportions in the real deck of what the masters say is the best and you are make backward progress and evolve the way they already did and found out it was wrong.  they have correct all those backward evolves and make the right maindeck.  i think it ok to change card that is similar for same type of card but not change whole type of card.  change out daze into stifle is maybe ok but notting curiosity into island and that is twhat people do.

[Shadow Ninja]

But no one is still telling me what is metagame deck vs normal deck.  you say pahntom tapewurm.dec is metagame but if it is played in all different types of metagames i dunnu understand.  slavery.dec is bad matchup has u/g maddenis.dec and so in metagame of madenis then slaver.dec is bad metagame deck.  then you are to modify the slaver to compete like you are to modifying the fish.dec.  You are saying what does not make since to me with metagame.dec and metahate.dec nad normal deck.

Metagame decks are not decks you play in a specific metagame.  What I mean when I say metagame deck is a deck that preys on the decks that are played in that metagame.  These metagame decks change based on what's prevalent much more so than other more established decks because they focus on exploiting weaknesses in the popular decks of the area rather than on their own personal gameplan.

Perhaps that is clearer definition?

And please keep the insults to yourself.  You're not making me want to explain my arguments by insinuating I'm an IRC n00b who has no idea what's going on.  I'm no Phantom Tapeworm or Menendian, but neither are you, so don't go throwing that crap around,

[xaos]

In response to the moving of this thread to the Newbie forums, the recent shit-eating I've had to put up with in the thread, and generally just being aggrivated with the people with nothing decent to say, I have given up on this thread.  I tried to do something to benefit the deck, as it could use more discussion, but enough people have now posted shit like "Don't change it!  Innovation kills decks!", so screw it.  You folk don't deserve my criticism anymore.


Moderators, please close this thread.

[Toad]

meandeckslave.dec is a combo deck

You misspelled "Control".

Closed as requested.