A plea to all experienced nonbudget vintage players....

[Hi-Val]

I'm sorry, I had to disagree with one point made here. Proxy tournaments are NOT small and far between. Let's look at the regular ones: Waterbury (5 proxy), Hadley (5 proxy), Columbus (UNLIMITED PROXY), etc. These events go on bimonthly or more frequently. Balance that out with the few small NY no-proxy tourneys and the side events at grand prix and such, and you don't have much that won't let you pack in some fakes.

Really the only big non-proxy T1 events are Origins and GenCon, both of which can get away with it thanks to having such huge attendance. If you are good, you can make a deck on five proxies and win real power with it.

The push should really be towards developing decks like Landstill, Oshawa and Gay Red that can function with 5 proxies and win tournaments. If you pidgeonhole yourself into nothing over $20, you cut yourself from a lot of options.

[Machinus]

The reason to play type one is because it is faster and more fun than other formats. You get to break more rules and play with the most powerful cards. Constructing decks which purposefully do not take advantage of the enormous power opportunities seems not only to be extremely boring, but a waste of time. I suggest trying out 1.5.

[kakeboy07]

MONO GREEN... its viable.. and its budget... look into it

you just might be surprised

[Meddling Mike]

Look, it seems like you're saying "TMD should get together as a community and build new, viable budget decks" but there are a number of problems with that.

1) Powered people rarely care about building budget decks.

2) There are already people who have worked hard and developed good budget decks like PTW making fish. I'd like to think that if some brilliant budget deck existed that could truly compete with the big powered decks, somebody would have built it by now.

3) The solution to the problem of new players being restricted to budget decks is solved via proxies. I myself am a HUGE advocate for making 10 proxies the standard. That way you can play something besides budget without having to take a second mortgage on your house.

[Sirena]

This argument has been had over and over in other formats. Type 1 is niche because the cards are rare. You either invest in the Moxes, etc or not. But I get annoyed when the local players at my store start crying that they don't have a chance because I am powered and they aren't. I bought my cards by working for them. You can do it, too. Anyone can do it with enough effort.

Alienating the older player base is what Wizards did with another format. It's called Standard.

As for diversity, there are only five powered players in my area. The number of budget decks in the area is very high, and they can win on sheer numbers.

I only have to drive twenty minutes to my local place and they have a tournament every saturday, with a power piece tourney every few months.

There is something about the line "for the good of the format" that I have lost faith in.

[DragonFire]

@Restriction of Workshops:
This make's no sense at all. Control Slavery needs none and Tog runs also. Workshop Decks can handle Tog, so when they die the Metagame could split into two great parts:

Hulksmash-Tog.dec

and:

extremeAntiTog.dec (Chains in Suicide/Keeper for example)

Or:

Strange Combodecks, that has no fear about Sphere's (Landbelch and draw7 can't go off when a Sphere of any Kind hits the table).

First turn Trinisphere isn't always good, its sometimes a gamble. Wasteland anyone? No second Workshop? Bad thing.

GRAnkh with maindeck Artifact Mutation and 5 Stripmines is a good solution against Workshop decks, and it isn't that bad against Psychatog. Restrict Workshops is no answer!

--

We have no proxy tournaments around here, and this isn't that bad. Sometimes a player can win with secret tech and his own ideas. But why the hell should WE build decks for them? And unpowered?

I think that power for all is not the solution, because after all you must CAN play it well. Sometimes I am wondering about Fullpowered Decks sitting on the last 5 tables in a 80 people tournament. Or sometimes they make one mistake after the next, but win because they draw the raw power in the next round.

[Machinus]

I think that power for all is not the solution, because after all you must CAN play it well. Sometimes I am wondering about Fullpowered Decks sitting on the last 5 tables in a 80 people tournament. Or sometimes they make one mistake after the next, but win because they draw the raw power in the next round.

I hate to use your own words against you, but if there is a better reason to focus on building power decks, I don't know of one. The point of magic is to win. Power wins. How is this even an issue at all?

[mogote]

I voted no.

Why should anyone owning power try to build budget decks for foreigners. Mostly any budget deck could be improved by adding some power. So even if you achieve your goal of building a highly competitive budget deck it will probably be recognized as powerful enough to make a powered version of it.

Restrictions shouldn't be done because of money reasons. As long as the metagame is diverse and balanced there's no reason to restrict anything.

[Toad]

I voted NO because T1.5 and Extended exist for a reason.

[Tobi]

I voted YES, because I agree it is a problem for many who want to take part in the T1 community and T1 contests to get the needed power, and therefore need to find some way to compensate this.

But I also agree that it makes little sense to discuss about budget deck types in special, at least not to everyone, and most likely not at all to those that have access to power cards.

But after all, this forum does have a Budget section, not? It should be the perfect place to discuss viable budget decks and cheer to those that manage to sneak into top 8 powerless

And on a final note: Its true that Workshop, Drain and Bazaar are broken, but the metagame is very healthy as far as I can see at the moment. Any modifications to the actual restriction lists could change this quickly...

[Kowal]

I voted no, for the million reasons already listed.

Wake up.  There's no sense optimizing lists when you're disallowing yourself optimal materials.

[bel_riose]

Now I say what I think:
 1. Unpowered decks can only be aggro decks
 2. there's no way for an unpowered aggro deck to beat hulk smash or keeper
 3. TnT and Madness are the only two aggro deck that can try to beat a blue based control deck.

But at a price: that you can cast threats fast (like negator was for suicide black) and for that purpose you must run your engine in 4x. So 4xWorkshop and 4xBazaar.

Restrict Workshop and Bazaar (are already on DCI watch list): you kill madness and you cant really play TnT with ancient tombs and city of traitors only.

So you kill those deck. Now what?
Can you beat more than 50% times a keeper with a sligh? or with a zoo?
No.
You must become a hulk smash or keeper or whatever control player.

Back in the years I played SuiBlack, Zoo, 8land-Stompy, Sligh cause I love aggro mode. And losed.
Then TnT arised.
I started play TnT and started to win?
No.
Look at the stats: here in Italy we have T1 tourneys of 130+ players, more than 60% of them powered every tourney, every week and did you see TnT or Madness win? Or finishing 2nd? No.

If you want to play aggro, even powered, even workshop/bazaar, it's difficult to win.
And then what? All the Magic community shouts to restrict workshops...

Then, why not restrict FoW? or ban dragon?
So unpowered players can start to win tourneys and you can easily restrict dark ritual...

Back in 1994 there was only 1 Type, and was T1.
Then wizards invented T2 to avoid power shortage problems, and we are here to discuss to become all EXT/T2 players for the sake of T1?
To discuss how to stop decks that doesnt win to make place to other decks that cant win?

I think that's not the way.
The answer is in people, and in our community that thinks all the day a way to make better decks.
I think we will see later this year a Modular/Affinity T1 deck make some top8 around the world.

Like Darth Wader once said: "Dont underestimate their chances"

[jpmeyer]

Affinity Top8'ed at Eindhoven already.

There ARE decks that are viable without power.  The difference is VIABLE, not OPTIMAL.  Fish is one example - without Ancestral, Walk, and the power mana you'll still be able to compete with a deck that's at least 90% of it's full capacity.  I managed to build a deck just now (still in development, but will be at Columbus) that's roughly in the same arena.

Budget decks still do exist and some of them are quite fine, but don't come whining to me when you just get wrecked by a broken start.

[Phantom Tape Worm]

I voted no, which i'm sure is contrary to what most people would expect since I have championed a "budget deck" for so long.

If you (the reader) want to create budget decks for whatever reason, I encourage you to do so.  But you cannot expect the best vintage magic minds on this site to devote their time and resources to such an endeavor.  There are no professional magic players in type 1.  We make decks only because we enjoy playing this game; we play type 1 for fun.  For many of the most experienced members of this community budget decks (creating them, playing them etc) are just not any fun, and it's really as simple as that.  And all the "for the good of the format" mumbo jumbo comes secondary to fun, as it should, since having fun is really the ultimate goal.

I personally, have no aversion to budget decks (obviously), but when I build a deck I am concerned not with its price tag, but its ability to win (and obviously its fun factor).  If I create something that happens to be budget, it is not because budget was the intent.  This is what happened with fish.

ALSO, and this is very important, budget decks ARE competitive.  RG beatz, fish, FCG, even sligh, sui and stompy are all much better than the more experienced members of this site would give them credit for.  The fact that they are looked down upon by those with great credibility on this site often skews public opinion and prevents these decks from showing up in large numbers (or by good players) at tournaments.

And one more thing about type 1 and this is going to sound incredibly snobbish but, the simple fact is that if you want in on our elitest type 1 club, then you have to pay your dues.  Though a side effect of the rarity of the cards, the prices are high for entry and that mostly keeps out the little kids and thusly keeps our community comprised of young adults (this is a good thing).  If you fit the demographic and you really love type 1, then you can nut up and buy power.  

OR YOU can devote your time and resources to building your own "budget deck".  And though you may not have the help of most of the adepts on this site, you won't necessarily be alone; the budget forum exists so that budget deck builders can help eachother.

[eddavatar]

I personally experienced the transition from being a budget player to powered. Let me explain it in both view point why i voted NO.

I had success with sligh. Not to say it's a bad deck, but as time pass by I realize that it just doesn't work. It's too narrow. It's not optimal. So i start to get power (i got an emerald and Jet)

Then i play B/g Void. It's a good deck and all, but it still lacks the brokeness to beat the true decks. (so i started to get 4 drains and full power)

Now i play hulk/GAT. It's powered so it's a viable deck in any tourney.

Anyhow, the whole thing is, if you are not even willing to shell out for things like Void or Drain, you don't really have much choices. The whole thing about T1 is about being broken. It's kinda tough to go without the power or even the $20+ cards.

More, asking for a bunch of powered people to develop decks that they will not play is just asking for trouble. It's hard enough to see people post about tier 2 decks like GAT and rector trix, much less unpowered crap. Rancor/Centrioles, the world really doesn't revolve around you unpowered players (much less un-$20-cards-ed players). The mission statement of TMD is "Vintage magic at its best." How can you play at its best when you handicap yourself?

Be grateful that decks like Fish exist. It's quite hard to get better. If you come up with something i'm sure people would look into it.

P.S. Let me put it in an analogy. Being an expert in budget is like being a carpenter extraordinarie with stone tools. You at the best it still worse than another carpenter with better tools, why bother to develop a better stone hammer when you can get a way better iron hammer already?

[kl0wn]

I have a simple, straightforward solution to your problem here. Just follow these simple steps:

1) Learn how to play Magic. More specifically, learn how to play Type 1.

2) Use this knowledge to build your own budget decks that can beat powered decks.

Being a powered player with most Type 1 staples, I have no desire or motivation to develop budget decks; that job is for those who NEED to.

Basically, instead of wasting your time begging for handouts, be more productive and just get cracking. There are plenty of undiscovered viable budget strategies out there and plenty of cheap cards that can be used to wreck us tyrannical Mox-wielders. As a budget player, it's your job to find them. Superman didn't send a care package full of kryptonite to Zod and his minions, so why should we? Get to work, whiner.

[Vegeta2711]

*sigh* Why the hell should we bother making unpowered decks? I mean people already provided you with like 3 somewhat viable/viable versions of budget decks.

Bebe/PTW gave you Fish
Wasp gave you good R/G Beats
I gave you FCG (Which in turn you should thank the Japanese and the one guy who put Food Chain in)

And if you can manage to afford Bazaar or Drain on your *sniffle* 0.04 cent allowances every year.

O. Stompy
Landstill
Spoils Dragon

That's a total of 6 decks and assuming you can buy one set of expensive, but non power cards it opens your options past aggro to control and combo. You want a hint in devloping new budget decks? Borrow from 1.x, esp. during the more broken periods of existence, see what did well and what you can transfer over.

I'm unpowered, but the first competive deck I went around to create was Stacker 3.  Noone wants to work with an artifical handicap in place when creating decks.

[wuaffiliate]

Whats the point of playing budget when there are so many better decks to be built? With the time you waste building budget decks you can be working to get cash to buy power, drains, shops, bazaars and so on.

No.

[slighguy]

i was a budget player for along time and i know how fustrating it is to try to build a deck to compete with all the powered players.All i can say is dont go out and build budget decks and test them just right down your ideas and put them on the mana drain for all the budget plyers to see cause its really hard since the only real budget decks that are even somewhat competative are sligh,sui,and gayr/fish builds which basically limits the budget player to 2-3 decks if they wanna play real type 1 and cant afford the power.
                         

thats my $0.02

[Moridar]

Build a deck that you like to play.  Modify it so it will compete.  Then if you still can't get it to win then build something else...

Wayne "Voted No."

[Triple_S]

I started off unpowered when I started playing the format...saw p9, wanted p9, then shopped/traded intelligently and got my p9.  Prices have gone up since then but there is no reason for the best players/deckbuilders to artificially constrain their creativity to help out a minority of the community. (In minority I mean those who are illiterate and can't use a sharpie to proxy up decks for playtesting.)  Restricting things due to cost of the card is absolutely assinine.  Remember, M:TG is a CCG...Collectible Card Game.

[Ifflejink]

I voted no. (I accidentally voted for yes. Damn crap computer!)

If Type 1 was made up of mostly budget players and we didn't have proxies, then it would be good to actively create budget decks. The thing is, most Type 1 players can at least afford Level 3 cards (Mana Drain, Bazaar, Mask, etc...) and quite a few large tournaments allow proxies. A competetive budget deck can come arround in, in my opinion, just one way: a powered deck has the power removed, and is affected very little by it. 99% of decks designed to specifically be budget (cough*Easter Tendrils*cough) simply aren't competetive in a powered environment. It's simply an inherent flaw of those decks.

One thing I'd like to say though, is that the Type 1 community should start looking at ideas that originated in budget decks. It could end up adding quite a few decks to the list of competetive ones, and create a whole new dimension for Type 1.

[JACO]

JPmeyer and nataz, you're wrong. Go back and scan through rasko's old articles.

I was around well before TnT. I remember all the old decks around back then. There were as many back then that did well as there are now.

There were as many weak decks back then as there are now, but there are FAR more viable decks now, whether powered, semi-powered, or unpowered.

There was grow, academy, land still, goblins, trix, parfait, white weenie, mask, and a whole bunch of other decks you left off.

You obviously aren't as much of a historian as you claim to be, and I will cite a few examples why you are talking out of your ass.
1. Trix, in its PRE-TnT days, had 4 Necros in it, and is nothing like it is today (aside from the Illusions-Donate engine).
2. Parfait, White Weenie, Goblins, old Academy, and a bunch of other decks were around back then, but not in their current form. Goblins, for example, isn't even close the the Food Chain Goblin-style decks today, in terms of both efficiency and the flexibility of the deck.
3. Gro, in its Type 1 form, first made it's appearance at GenCon a couple of years ago when Pat Chapin won the $250 tournament with it, and began to help turn Type 1 into what it is today. The variants with White or Black, as well as the original Gro-A-Tog variants, all sprouted from this. I was at that tournament, and TnT was definitely in vogue before that, and Mask was starting to make its appearances that summer as well, only after it had been errataed.

Truly, just about every deck we play now except for workshop was around back then too. The decks just changed with the new cards that came out. And a few new decks came out as a result of new cards and combos (Tog, Tendrils, and Dragon come to mind).

This is BS as well. Decks like Workshop Slaver, Control Slaver, Madness, Dragon, Vengeur Masque, Gay/R, Mad Dragon, Charbelcher, Oshawa Stompy/GPR2, TPS, and LandStill were ALL NOT PRESENT BACK THEN. Please do your homework before you go out to play.

But many of the old decks were killed off by TnT as well. And I think that an argument can be made that there were actually more viable decks around back then than there are now.

While I will agree with you that TnT killed off many of the old decks, decks that adapted and were built to combat TnT (as well as the host of other new decks developed over the past 3 years) have made for a much more balanced environment. There are at least 15-20 viable decks now (albeit some are variants of others, or are in or near the same deck family), and I don't consider the handful of playable decks in 1999 to be remotely comparable to that.

The only new decks that came out tps, slavery, rector trix using cabal therapy, dragon, madness, tog are ALL the results of cards that came out after TnT.

This is patently false, as I have already shown above.

The format was as innovative as it could have been back then.

This isn't true either. Decks (and the metagame) were not advancing nearly as quickly as they should have been. When a pro like Pat Chapin brought Gro to GenCon and basically schooled everybody with it, it was a classic example of how narrow-minded people were when designing their decks, and typically only basing deck construction on what they had already seen before. I will grant that some of the newer sets (Masque through Odyssey block) have added many essential cards to the Type 1 pool (fetchlands, for example), but cards like Survival of the Fittest, Bazaar of Baghdad, and Mishra's Workshop were not broken nearly as fast as they should have been.

[TJ-Whoopy]

I'll keep this short, I don't post overly much and I don't own power, (I got drains and a LOA) and I don't care about budget decks they (and all threads pertaining to them) belong in the budget forum.

[kirdape3]

Since he's mad been banninated, this one's closed.[/b]