OPERATION SCORCHED EARTH

[nataz]

I think we all heart the TMD, and that is the reason why this thread is getting so much coverage. I saw Zherbus about 3 weeks ago at stokes tourney and was really glad I got to thank him face to face.

Imagine what the type one world would be like with out this place.

...

scary thought huh? I am fairly new to type one, and I got here only after going thought the living hell that is the brainburst, starcitygames, and mtgnews type one forums. I know I do not ever want to have to go back to that, and I would quite type one before I ever did.

Those are not places to intelligently discuss ideas. Those are places where 10 year old kids talk in net speak, tell me that bazaar is a horrible card in dragon, and talk about what they did at school that day in my thread on the color white in type one.


To all of you out there that have stable and healthy meta-games in your local area and therefore don’t really need TMD, be thankful, because there are a lots of people out there that do not. In order for us to even be remotely competitive when we leave our local store people like me need a place for good, tried, and tested tec. TMD creates the meta-game, and that my friends is a good thing.

So, this is to all of the Mods,
Do what you need to do to keep these boards running smooth and clean. If you have to be harsh, be harsh, because we are all just guests here. As far as I know, no one gets paid to do any of this, and its all volunteer work; so mad props for everyone who has kept this site going for so long. To everyone else who really doesn’t like it; before you bash it, try going somewhere else for a while and then tell me how you feel.

-Peace out

[Kerz]

I don't think that we should implement any new forums (as some people suggested), nor should we try to motivate users with giving more accounts VAship or Full Usership. The quality has dropped, but after this operation (<3 JP) the basic users should start to realize what and what is not acceptable, and improve on that. There are just some users who can't be helped, but this  should tell them to stop posting retarded stuff and just lurk the forums untill they can have something real to contribute. Many users have gone out of their way to make a "new user's handbook", a collection of articles and other things new users should know when starting- we should stress that they read these.

In the coming weeks i'll try and stimulate some more intelligent conversation in the open forums, and keep my eyes open for poor posting.

Aaron Kerzner

[Eastman]

At the risk of tooting my own horn, I found TMD in September and was promoted in December--before I started doing statistics articles, and without winning a tournament or innovating a deck. Those are not the only avenues, and like JP said in Tony's thread, membership is an e-penis thing often enough anyway. Even consistently asking the right questions to make the experts reconsider their assumptions is a worthwhile effort, and will get you respect.

Same here, I started posting late May and I was a member by the beginning of July. At the time I had not won anything or significantly changed any decklists.

What's happened is the t1 forum has drifted into a state similar to the old EV forum. SO many people read the site (my last keeper list has ~6000 views) that I'm hesitant to post when I'm not damned sure what I'm talking about.  

Also it's a down time right now. The content production of the site has always been somewhat cyclical. While we are busiest with our team work we generally don't find as much time to contribute to the boards.  As we get closer to the next TMD Open you'll see that change.

[Shadow Ninja]

Same here, I started posting late May and I was a member by the beginning of July. At the time I had not won anything or significantly changed any decklists.

What's happened is the t1 forum has drifted into a state similar to the old EV forum. SO many people read the site (my last keeper list has ~6000 views) that I'm hesitant to post when I'm not damned sure what I'm talking about.  

Perhaps this is part of the problem.  Sometimes you just have to suck it up and not be afraid to be wrong.  Even the best make mistakes, and how can we learn from them if you're afraid to tell us what happened, what went wrong, and what probably should be done about it?  

I'm not saying post stuff you haven't tested, but if you've been getting mixed results, post it, and maybe someone will pipe up with an outlook or an option you had not previously considered.  And as I'm fairly certain no one will lynch you for trying to inspire discussion and innovation, there's really nothing to lose.

[PucktheCat]

Diving back in after four months off the site . . .

Same here, I started posting late May and I was a member by the beginning of July. At the time I had not won anything or significantly changed any decklists.

The same thing happened with me, back at the old site.  It really isn't (or wasn't, anyway) impossible to get a membership if you are reasonably thoughtful when you post.

you can just read the forums or look at the post dates in the T1 forum to see what I am referring to. All the forums need some work - but the 'Open' forum seems to be the best overall forum for innovation, discussion, etc. I would like to see the T1 forum again become the flagship forum of this site so I can go and read insightful commentary and meaningful analysis without wading through unpowered Tog lists and infinite Keeper variants. (which was the original purpose of the forum) The successful implementation of this hinges on the adepts and mods to put forth an effort to post in the forum and contribute on a daily basis. I think that the attitude the T1 forum takes influences the tone in the other forums. An improvement in the T1 forum will quickly improve the entire site.

I have a thought about this that I haven't seen posted.  Does anyone else remember the last month or so of Extreme Vintage Forum posts on the old site?  I don't either, because there weren't any.  After that forum was restricted to Vintage Adepts the posting fell off a cliff.  Why was that?  There may be several reasons, including team secrecy as has been discussed, but it seems to me that a major one might be the simple fact that many (not all, but many) of the most effective people on the site know what the other regular posters think about most things they post.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if, for example, jp wants to know what Smmemen thinks about a topic it seems more likely that he will find it out via email/IRC/IM/ICQ/sexily whispering in his ear than by posting it here and waiting for his response.  In fact, most posts made by the better posters have responses from other good posters to the effect of "well, as we discussed, I think . . ."

There is absolutly nothing wrong with that, of course, but it does mean that the most selective forums naturally become simply posting grounds for primers and links to articles.  The less selective forums are where very spirited conversations, and innovation, can best happen because they are where people with fresh perspectives meet people with a solid understanding of the format.  For examples of this you can look at the old threads building Long.dec and updating BBS.

Unfortunatly, these forums are also where most of the garbage posting happens.  There isn't really any solution to this problem, because fresh ideas and energy come from the exact same source (first time posters) as garbage and flames.  The only thing that can mitigate the problem is aggressive moderation to seperate the sheep from the goats, either promoting enough people that the closed forum becomes innovative (and perhaps returning to the three tier structure of the old site) or banning the troublemakers so the open forums become readable.

Leo

[Ric_Flair]

@ Breathweapon:

To be honest, the ENTIRE site has been starved of quality material for some time, and that includes the T1 Forum. I don't think I have read anything of significant value in the T1 Forum for the past month, at best it moves 2 or 3 posts a day ... all of which seems to be dubious "ho hum" commentary at best. I can't see how you can justify placing the blame solely on the T1 Open Forum. With the notable exception of Steve, I can't say i've learned anything new from the lot of you.

This seems a bit flame like to me.  It also is entirely untrue and a great "red flag" indicating a lack of knowledge about the format.  Since TMD 2 began there have HUGE innovations and big changes in the metagame, inspired mainly by this site and people posting here in the closed Forums.  

Smmenen's stuff have been good, of course, but I think that a few other threads in the T1 forum have been worthwhile.  The fact that you don't realize this is, well, a sign of inexperience.  Jacob's Worse than fish deck is a huge innovation in my mind.  It has had an immediate impact on the format.  So has The Atog Lord's stuff on Control Slaver.  The GAT discussion has been pretty lively with good tech.  Oshawa Stompy has been a big deck and the thread on it has been good.  As has the Madness thread.  Samite Healer's Broodstarrunner deck is another great innovation.  The fact is that each of these decks has a real possibility of winning any major tournament and they were all openly discussed, improved, and teched out RIGHT HERE.  The comment that nothing new of quality has been posted is utterly without merit.  

The slow pace of posts there is because a) everyone assumes that posts will be read; b) everyone playtests extensively; c) all the people posting know what they are talking about, and; d) good posts on complex topics take a long time.  The other thing is that there is less bickering, which is what a lot of the "fast posts" are.  Finally, the good threads are less opinion based, which slows down the rate of posting.  In other words, innovation and quality take a long time.

I think your comments were not only wrong, but rude.  Read the good posts.  People put a lot of work into them.  More than anything I have seen in the Open forums.  

Finally, if you don't like the post quality, either post your own quality stuff or don't come here.  No one FORCES you to read TMD.

[Vegeta2711]

With the notable exception of Steve, I can't say i've learned anything new from the lot of you.

Our job is not to teach people.  Let alone teach ones that contribute nothing to the community in return.

[Milton]

When I read this yesterday I didn't know if it was real or just another April fools joke.

I guess I still don't know if this is the real deal, but I'll add my two cents worth.

What is the purpose of TMD?  I guess the answer to that question is different for everyone.   Beyond Dominia was a place to share information and build a network of Type I players.  This was really the time before teams, the time when information was murderously rare.  The time when people had a genuine desire to share, help and build the community.  At least that is my perspective.  BD slowly broke.  It broke because of ego, it broke because of petty arguments, but mostly it broke because the desire to share information, help and build the community died.  Teams, secrets, tech...  It killed BD.  The last two or three months of BD was a nightmare.  Petty bickering, no real good information...

TMD was founded, and for a brief while we regained that sense of community.  There was a true desire to help and share information and develop players.  Rather quickly, however, that sense was lost on the bulk of TMD, once again this was due to the rise of teams.  

The real purpose of a site like TMD is to share information.  The problem is that since teams have been created, tech is horded.  It isn't until the tech is unleashed at tournaments that it becomes public knowledge.  This means that a great many people are looking at the Tournament Forum, because it is the only real place where pure information is shared.  Everything else could potentially be filtered, bent and twisted to hide tech.  It is also the only place where individuals are really unafraid to share good info, although they do so ex post facto.  As such, if no one want's to share ideas, then the tournament forum is where it's at.

I really stopped posting here a while ago in anything but the Tournament forum for a couple of reasons.  First, I honestly don't feel as though I have anything to contribute.  I have tried, but most don't respond well to my posts.  If TMD is a marketplace of ideas, then I must assume most people don't really value my opinion.  I have come to accept that as being a natural consequence of not putting in the time to establish myself or to build a reputation or, of course, because I have genuinely bad ideas.  Either way, I gladly take a back seat to others.  

The suckyness of the T1 forum is simply a result of the fact that the people who can post in those forums are on advanced teams, with appropriate agreements about keeping things quiet.  This means that they cannot talk about radically new ideas, until those ideas are public knowledge following a tournament.  

I'm not trying to decry the team concept in Magic, but clearly there is a sharp relationship between the rise of teams and the decline of the free flow of information.  TMD requires a free flow of information to thrive.  What else is there to talk about?  Without new information there is no good dialogue.  I mean, honestly, we can only rehash the "is keeper dead?" thread only so often before people lose interest.

[jpmeyer]

People get waaaaaaaaaaay too uptight about teams.  Honestly, we don't hold anything back until like right before say, Worlds.  We just like to wait and make sure that it works really well first before posting it that way it's the most useful to everyone.

Occasionally yeah, I will pop a million boners about something and just spill it (like say, Firestorm) but usually we've found that it's better to wait.  A lot of this comes from our experience last year where we really plugged Tog a lot but nobody seemed to care until it put up good results at Worlds and at some European tournies shortly after Worlds.

[Milton]

People get waaaaaaaaaaay too uptight about teams. Honestly, we don't hold anything back until like right before say, Worlds. We just like to wait and make sure that it works really well first before posting it that way it's the most useful to everyone.

Occasionally yeah, I will pop a million boners about something and just spill it (like say, Firestorm) but usually we've found that it's better to wait. A lot of this comes from our experience last year where we really plugged Tog a lot but nobody seemed to care until it put up good results at Worlds and at some European tournies shortly after Worlds.

It's possible that I didn't make myself clear.  Tech is one part of the coin (and JP, I think you are underestimating the perception of Paragon tech).  The other part of the coin is the necessity of TMD to someone who is on a team.  How important is it for someone on an elite team to post or argue on the T1 Forum?  Why do so when they can log on to their own little team web log?

[jpmeyer]

Honestly, a lot of it is that while we're still working on refining a deck, we trust our own playtest results more than someone else's.

[Methuselahn]

Milton and JP, I think you both have valid points and there is truth in what both of you are saying.

I'm on a team now, and yes, I often see no reason to discuss the nuts and bolts of Vintage on the boards.  Why? Well here's an example:  Team Reflection was just recently working on a project deck that we've dubbed "STD" or "Show and Tell Day".  We put a lot of hard work into it, we post it, we get a few responses, (mainly JP himself (thanks btw)), and then it dies out.  The thread eventually gets buried in a sea of retarded suicide threads and "what should I do to my FCG deck threads."  So we do all this work and get virtually no feedback.  There has to be give and take here.  We build a whole new archetype, have the audacity to say it SMASHES HULK    and it doesn't even reach page 2.  How disheartening.  I think JP understands this all too well.

I can confidently say that our team dishes out far more information than it takes in from the general public.

All this being said, I really like the new ass kicking policy that is now in place and hope it will remove the spam but not instill so much fear as to prevent people from posting.  So I would say to have faith Craig.

[/soapbox]

[jpmeyer]

Exactly!  Because of the fact that posting decks now leads to like "I think you should cut all the Food Chains and Skirk Prospectors from FCG so you don't die to Slaver"-level comments, it kills threads before they can really provide anything useful (that and stuff getting lost in the sea of random Suicide threads.)  It gets bad enough that like I'd rather just directly send new decks or ideas to people and just talking with them about it since it ends up being infinitely more productive.

[Gothmog]

I think the essential thing lost from BDominia has been the friendliness.  Milton is right that BDominia was about building a network.  With BDominia, you could work on new ideas and a boatload of cool people like Razor & Bebe would be willing to help out and give card ideas.  You could start with a concept and people would be willing to help with building the deck.  Of course there were idiots.  There are idiots in every internet message board, that's just part of the territory.  

With TMD, you guys don't want to see decks without tons of testing and analysis.  That's understandable.  I personally think it leads to less interesting boards, but they're not my boards.  Note however, that it doesn't keep the idiots from posting, so if the goal is to improve the post quality, only so much can be done about that.  

I think it really comes down to the attitudes and rules as set forth by the Mods.

The rules make for a very competitive website.  Along with that competitiveness, you get the kids that want to be full members and you get a hoarding of information.  It seems we've reached the other end of the spectrum, a few years ago if you didn't find BDominia there was no information to find; now TMD is very well known in the community, so we have this forum most people know how to find, but people don't use it because they are afraid to either look stupid or give away an advantage.

My solutions:

I certainly don't think we need 3 seperate categories of members.  If you want to merge the Open and Newbie forums I don't see the harm in it, though I don't really see why it would be worth the trouble either.  Us low-life scum would appreciate you leaving the forum name the Open forum though.  

Add to the forum rules that Mods will take a dim view of people telling others they don't know Type I.  These statements have even happened in this thread and do nothing productive, they only start flame wars.

Decide if you want sporadic posting with little innovation of anything other than established archetypes or if you want more posts with some of them of dubious quality.  Where the site operators fall on this spectrum should determine how aggressive the Mods are in dealing with "dumb" ideas.

The ultimate example here is the stagnation of the Type I forum.  Very little happens there because people generally seem to not want to post anything innovative.  It occasionally happens, but even full members are much more likely to post an idea in the Open Forum.  The Type I forum is useful for finding builds of the established archetypes to test against.  Other than that, teams and fear seem to keep it from being as productive as it could be.

Personally, I don't think TMD is in terrible shape right now.  I don't think any major changes really need to be made.  In a community this large there will be idiots.  I think a more general emphasis on friendliness and less on competitiveness would lead to better boards and a better community.  We all need to remember its just a game we play as a hobby, we all want to win and play to win, but since its unlikely any of us are going to get very wealthy playing and winning in Type I having a decent attitude makes it better for everyone.

[Ric_Flair]

I have had it with criticizing the Type 1 Forum.  Lots and lots of good stuff goes up there.  It is slower to develop because, ready for this, quality takes time to develop.  Here are threads that I think are excellent representations of the high(er) quality stuff that goes up in those threads.  

Meandeck Slavery Thread:
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15814

Control Slaver Primer:
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15900

Kerz's Gauntlet:
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15851

GAT/Gro Thread:
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=42

Hulk:
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9264

Z's Keeper Thread:
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4

Eastman's Chains Keeper Thread:
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=14986

Toad's TNT Thread:
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=40

Madness Update:
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9210

Oshawa Stompy:
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9119

Food Chain:
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9100

Add to this a large number of different single card discussions and primers, as well as the most articulate discussion of various policy issues and I think it is clear that the Type 1 forum is the most important forum here because it has the best quality.  Every post, not just thread, is supported by extensive playtesting and that takes time.  

I am throwing down the gauntlet.  For every person that claims that the Type 1 forum is lacking, show me why.  I believe that this forum is not only the best here, but the best on any open access Magic site in the world.  It is quite literally the blueprint of the format, where important changes and updates are made public.  There is no comparison--the Type 1 forum is the best there is.  Furthermore, and more to the point, it is not the source of the offensive posts that led to the sorched earth policy.  Let's maintain a modicum of reality here--the Type 1 forum is not the problem.   Nor is its speed of development.

Finally, as a sidenote, if people are fed up with the pace of innovation in the Type 1 forum, get ready for this revolutionary idea,  INNOVATE FOR YOURSELF.  I find it absurd that people are complaining that the posts aren't coming fast enough for them to netdeck.  If your simply waiting for TMD to throw innovations into your lap, then you are really missing the point of the forum board.  The idea is to share tips, game play or otherwise.  Not for a small segment of users to hand free tech over to those that care not to work for themselves.

[jpmeyer]

Think of it like this:

Remove the ACRES of shit from the open forums and then compare the rate of quality stuff that shows up there vs. the rate of quality stuff that shows up in the Type 1 forum.

[Tempe]

I think the real complaints were that the Type 1 Forum feels like just an announcement board where proven decks get posted, rather than a discussion area where decks are being developed. Thats not completely true, as there are plenty of innovation there, but the threads are taking a proven deck and improving on it, instead of creating new decks. I do not support this argument, since I understand that Full TMD Members do not want to share anything that pops into their head, but instead rely on playtesting to see if a deck is viable first. That is one of the main differences between the two forums.

--Tempe

[MuzzonoAmi]

I think you're missing what Ric_Flair said. There are plenty of good debates and discussions on the Type 1 Forum - but as a general rule, the Full Members and VAs don't shoot off their mouths without testing an idea first. For example, I never like the Ornithopter in Ravager Affinity, but I wanted to be damn sure that it didn't work as well as something else before I said 'Hey, why not try it without them.'  That sort of thing doesn't happen as often in the Open Forums.

[Tempe]

But the question is whether that is a good thing or a bad thing. Sometimes, it is better to bring the idea to the community so you can all do testing rather than test by yourself to find your own conclusions. I don't think there is any harm in saying, without playtesting, "Have you tried this replacing Ornithopter with xCardx?" As long as you have a general idea of what you're talking about, and almost all of the full members do, it leads to faster development, since more of you are testing, and more innovation, since you may have an idea that you just didn't playtest right, and thus you found it not "worthy" to post.

Maybe I should get a clarification here. What exactly is the purpose of the Full Membership status? I was under the impression that it was there so that more experienced members of the Type 1 Community could discuss topics without the interference of so-called (and mostly rightfully) "dumb" comments.

--Tempe

[jpmeyer]

Pretty much

[Ric_Flair]

@ Tempe:

But the question is whether that is a good thing or a bad thing. Sometimes, it is better to bring the idea to the community so you can all do testing rather than test by yourself to find your own conclusions.

Lets look at results.  When was the last time an exclusively Open Forum deck won a major event?  When was the last time a deck first aired in the Type 1 won a major event?  That is my point.

The other issue is that many of the people posting in the Type 1 forum don't have use (as much use) for the random suggestions because they have people to playtest with.

[Eastman]

There's never been a really clear distinction between the open and newbie forum. Part of the problem is a mixing of the two that has started.

Can we(those with mod power in those forums) just start moving whole threads to the newbie forum? If we got all the flak out of open and set a standard for the sort of stuff that should go there, I think we'd see the wheels spinning a bit better.

[jpmeyer]

Yes

[defector]

I would like to the open type 1 trimmed, I have no powered people to playtest with, and I have no team. I benefit greatly from the advice of proven players.  I posted a deck design on the old tmd and I've posted a deck design on the new tmd.  The old one was dramatically preferable to the new one.  I aggresively monitor my thread, and have noticed a dramatic decrease in quality/quantity from the old tmd to the new one.
I hope this is just cyclical, and that the lack of response is based on bad timing, or perhaps my new idea is not as interesting to people as my last idea was.  
The debate around people gettng full membership/touting the full membership that they have, or complaining about the membership they lack is of no interest to me. I belive exploring it distracts from the problem.  Personally, I don't want to job of forum cop, and the people I most want to communicate with have PM accounts, and cruise the open type 1.  Good luck to you and keep up the good work.
defector

[chaosdjinn]

Well...if everyone had carte blanche to post, then maybe there would be more quality postings.  

Personally I don't post here anymore...well...except for this post.

[/b]

[Razer51]

Overall, I think TMD is not as sweet as it was a while ago, but I think that is mainly due to the rise in popularity of Type1, and the newbies that brings.  I think that the Type 1 forum is still a high quality source of info, yet I do see the impact of the so-called "team secrecy", but I still enjoy reading TMD.  However, I spend almost no time on the newbie/open Forums because I have found them to be mostly poo.  And I dont feel like farming through acres and acres of poo to read and post there.  This frustrates me, because I am interested in attaining Full Membership status, but I am unwilling to deal with the idiocy I have encountered in the newbie/open forums.  Once in a while I see an Oasis in the Great Desert of Poo, but they are few and far between.  This further frustrates me because I feel there is much I could contribute to the forums, but am unable to.  I am a DCI Judge, and I run type 1 tourneys here in Kalamazoo on a monthly basis (at least).  Ive been playing Type 1 for a few years now, and we have a diverse and healthy metagame out here, and Id like to share things and post decks, etc, but honestly, I am daunted by the idiocy.  

Im not sure what would fix the problem, but I do have an idea.  It would require more time from Zherbus/the mods, but I think it would result in a higher level of quality in each forum.  Here she goes:  Screen everyone who even applies for basic TMD membership.  If they are an idiot, then they can join.  They can still read the forums, but cant post, anywhere.  If they dont seem like an idiot, grant them basic TMD membership.  From there they go one of three places based on the quality of their contribution to the scene.  If they turn out to be an idiot, they get the boot.  If they are an average contributor, the retain basic privilages.  If they contribute and engage in thoughful discussions, they can ascend to Full TMD status.  

As you can see, this would require more effort from mods, and some people would be upset (as people allways are when there is change) but I think it would make TMD even better.

Thanks for your time.

Chris Hatfield

[jpmeyer]

Also, while I know that everyone wants to have the biggest e-penis out there, don't try to get famous.  I guarantee that if you're trying, anything you're going to say has either been done already and discarded or has been already explained and had been done better than you would've.

[Tempe]

Does that mean that if we don't try to be famous, we will run across things that nobody has done or do something better than someone else previously? Or that either way, everyone in general is relatively worthless, except famous people?

--Tempe

[jpmeyer]

It's more that people want the e-penis more than they want to get better despite the fact that getting better is a more reliable path to get the e-penis.  You end up getting lots of posts where people are trying to write random articles or random primers on topics that've been covered already...and if they had spent their time trying to use the search function or to read other sites and whatnot to learn about the topic first, they would've not only found this out, but become a better player for it.  Instead of being like "this person has a primer" or "this person writes for SCG" and seeing that they must be good in order to do that, people think that if they do that they people will respect what they have to say.

[Matt]

In other words, it's a cargo cult.