EBA, Consolidating Tech.

[BreathWeapon]

Over the past few weeks a handful of tournament reports have found their way to TheManaDrain on EBA. Instead of reading thru' numerous threads for deck tech, I thought it would be more managable to create one thread for the deck and stick with it ...  we don't need another Suicide Black Forum

Anyway, one thing i've noticed is a massive disconnect between posted deck lists. Some players are using Ophidians and DoJs, and others are using Skeletal Scryings and Exalted Angels. Some EBA players seem to think they can get away with 4 MD Angels and others like to skimp on the card draw, 1 Scrying etc. MD removal seems to fluxuate dramaticaly, ranging from 3 STP and a MD Vindicate to nothing at all. The presence of Cunning Wish also rarely appears in most EBA lists. Chains of Mephistophelese and Damping Matrix have cropped up quite a bit as well.

Hopefuly we can shine a little light onto the madness and reach a consenus on certain cards for the deck. EBA seems to have a lot of flexibility in various metagames and hopefuly we can capitalize on that versatility.

So, what do you think EBA should look like? What matches have you found it to be advantageous over Tog, Keeper and Landstill?

[wuaffiliate]

this is what i run for "EBA".

Basically i split on angels and decrees because of the amount of control here, angel is great but decree is just so good under standstill which i see alot of.

I like the wishes, it gives me the fexibility and the ability to leave my less flexible and often dead cards in the SB.

I dont like duress very much anymore, its lost alot of its usefullness to me, stifle is just stronger right now.

Its pretty basic its just a really strong control deck that can be metagamed for any metagame, EBA is so strong because of that.

//Name: Uwb Control
//threats
4 Meddling Mage
3 Ophidian
2 Exalted Angel
2 Decree of Justice

//draw and search
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Cunning Wish

//counter base
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Stifle

//misc
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will

//removal
3 Swords to Plowshares

//mana base
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal

SB: 2 Serenity
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 1 Dismantaling Blow
SB: 2 Damping Matrix
SB: 1 Moat
SB: 2 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Coffin Purge
SB: 1 Stifle
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Righteous Aura
SB: 1 Vampiric Tutor

[riggy]

I've been playing EBA since Spring of last year. Here are my thoughts. My meta was mostly aggro and control when I first started playing it, with no workshops and no dragon.

Recoil was great. Instant speed, anything-removal (if only temporary) was great. And they were forced to discard something also. Not necessarily great given the rise of workshop decks and the second coming of Madness, but still decent.

Shadowmage Infiltrator. I will always consider him to be far superior to the original card drawer of Ophidian. Built in evasion, plus he still does damage plus drawing a card.

I get harassed for this choice a lot, but I play Telepathy. It's a psychological advantage over your opponent. It allows you to use Black Lotus and a Tundra/Pearl for first turn Meddling Mage. It removes their ability to hide things from you and play tricks on your mind. I actually cut down to 3 duresses to include this card.

Most everything else in wuaffiliate's deck is similar to mine. I don't play wishes or decree, playing Mind Twist and 2 Vindicates instead.

the only other card I think should go in is Future Sight. I'm still a huge fan of that card.

So there's my tech: Recoil and Telepathy. Everything else is for the most part very standard.

[wuaffiliate]

i used to use twist but i wreck aggro as it is and i would rather be able to run a 2nd wish in its place.

shadowmage is hard to cast most of the time, there is no reason to play it. phid uses mana from your MAIN colour so its VERY easy to cast off drain mana.

[Hi-Val]

If you run Ophidians, your EBA is outdated. The cards that make the deck work are Angel, Mage and Matrix. Look for a primer-ish deal from Jon (Soupboy) and I in the near future that will explain all the choices.

[Jawman16]

Damping Matrix is THE card that makes this deck viable.  Otherwise there really is no advantage to playing EBA over say, Hulk.  Data has shown that at least 2 maindeck Matrices are a must in any EBA build.  Even if you play in scrub aggro metas, the card shuts down so many random ass things it is unbelievable (Cursed Scroll, G Shaman, Viridian Zealot, etc... I am trying to think of common aggro creatures).  

Phid and his buddy shadowmage have been proven to be too slow in the current enviroment.  Run Skeletal Skrying instead.  Phic cc = 3 mana.  You get no cards in return once you cast him.  It would take you 3 turns to draw two cards which you could get right away from the SS.  Plus the SS is sooo much more explosive off Mana Drain then a little snake ever could be.   Skrying also has the potential to draw more cards when you need them as compared to the Snake.  Sure, if Ophidian stays around for a while you will win but often times you are left wishing he was faster.  

-Jeff

ps.  Started posting before Hi-Val's post was up.

[wuaffiliate]

phidian draws cards, it adds consistancy to the deck and ive really never been sorry to cast it.

phids work quite well here, matrix is deligated to the SB because of the low number of togs and welders, i have wishes and drains to deal with problematic artifacts if need be.

scrying is indeed good, but then you might as well just add red and play keeper.

also, saying if you run phids you EBA is outdated can also easily mean that since you sun EBA your landstill is outdated

[spankweasel]

My creature base is slightly different than everybody else's.  I play Type 1 in Denver where there is very little power.  The store that holds Type 1 tourneys usually has about 6-10 people with powered decks, and the rest are usually scrub aggro (usually red and/or black)

For the scrub aggro, I added a pair of Masticores.  There's not much Sui or Sligh can really do about him, and he's good about surviving a Disk from a Landstill deck.

I also took out a pair of Mages as they tend to suck in a field of scrubby aggro.

Here's what I ended up running

2 Exalted Angel
2 Meddling Mage
3 Shadowmage Infiltrator
3 Phyrexian Negator (had to be really careful with this guy.  He was MD because I knew I could get past the scrubs and into the quality matches against other quality decks)
2 Masticore

SB:
2 Exalted Angel
2 Meddling Mage

The rest of the deck is pretty standard.  

I am a -firm- believer in Damping Matrix.  It's ability to shut off most decks is fantastic.  

I think that if you're going to run the Decree's, I would possibly look at Humility or Moat as additional hosers.  Humility will nuke the Mages, but the Mages can hold your opponent down in time for you get set up for a big decree.

[riggy]

@wuaffiliate:
I re-read your post and realized that you had cut all of the duresses. While I agree that Stifle is strong and I had 2 MD for a while, duress is what sets up the Meddling Mage. Given your lack of black in the deck, I can see why you'd not want to run them. How has this affected your use of the Mages?

I actually play 2 Scrublands in my deck to augment the need for White and Black in the deck.  It means using fetchlands a little more intelligently, but I can support the black and the white much easier.

Also, regarding Damping Matrix versus Stifle, the DM seems like it would be much better since it
a) you can still morph an angel under it.
b) will hit most of the things you'd want to stifle, save for fetches.

[Jawman16]

spankweasel

2 Masticore

I am a -firm- believer in Damping Matrix. It's ability to shut off most decks is fantastic.

There is a strong contradiction here my friend.  Masticore + Damping Matrix is not good.  I don't know what your entire list looks like but these two cards do not make good bed fellows.  You also say that you play in a heavy aggro meta.  If this is the case, Exalted Angel becomes that much more nutty.  Flipped up Angel against aggro....Pwned!

[jazzykat]

What I would like to see is a list of all cards that are viable and which ones are must haves like a fish thread that is floating around here. I understand this thread isn't just for me, but I can't take a lot out of the argument over phids having never played the deck.

When I got the itch to try this deck out it was under the assumption that I would get to play negators which no one seems to be running. I suppose I am thinking of a really bad and outdated version.

[riggy]

For reference, here are some decklists from the archives:

From late July, 2003

From early July, 2003

Neither includes Negators, but the second link includes Morphling in his kill, and most of the lists then included Ophidian. Perhaps it's helpful, since the discussion generated in those threads is still highly relevant (some of it, anyway), but it includes discussion relating to card choices.

The most important card being added to EBA since those threads were written is the Damping Matrix, which will be guaranteed to have a lot of discussion generated about it.

[CSeraph]

I'll repeat a question I asked in the other EBA thread, and BreathWeapon touched on in his thread-opener - what advantages does EBA have over Tog and especially, Keeper? Which important matchups are better?

HiVal says the deck works off angels, matrix and mage - and all but the last see play in Keeper. A theoretically better mana base (3 colour) seems counterbalanced in practice by heavy up front mana requirements - B on T1, - W on T2, WW on T4, etc. I'm as big a fan of mage as anyone, but I have trouble seeing EBA as something other than an awkward mash of sub-optimal control (-Balance, -Mystic, -good draw, -SB REB/Shaman/Rack&Ruin) and a sketchy, underpowered creature base (2/2s for 2? Who runs those anymore?).

What I'd actually like is for someone to thoroughly, intelligently rebuke me. Help me out =).

[proGaming]

The problem with this thread is that these lists will differ a pretty good deal as you go from meta to meta so I think we need to establish neutral ground to enhance this discussion and not have arguments over card choices because one person is in an aggro heavy field and another in a control field.

Note: my comments below are mainly directed to wu's decklist.

Damping Matrix needs to be in the maindeck over Stifle unless you play against Tendrils and Dragon all day long.  Stifle is a one shot deal and you need to keep mana open to use it.  Matrix is permanent and completly shuts down Welders, Slavers, Togs, etc.  The only problem is that it's an artifact and is prone to a lot of hate; however, I think the pros outweigh the cons and I think it should be run over Stifle.

If you stay with a creature card drawer like Phid I think it would be wise to add more black sources and add Finkels and Duress.  Finkel adds some evasion and deals damage while still being blue so it's pitchable to Force.  For this deck it's my strong belief that if you run Mages you need to run Duress, it just makes your Mages so much more powerful.

[wuaffiliate]

matrix is deligated to the SB because of the low number of togs and welders

...in my metagame

i guess i should have spelled it out for ya

[proGaming]

heh, yea, that was my mistake  

[doomhed]

the main reason that there are so many different EBA builds is because there are so many metagame considerations .

EBA SKELETON.dec

4x Force
4x Drain
4x Brainstorm
4/3x Phid/Finkle
4x DoJ/Exaulted
4x meddling mage
1x ancestral
1x time walk
1x demonic tutor
1x Yawgmoth's will
1x Fact or Fiction
3-5x pieces of removal/more drawing/wishes
2-4 metagame choices
5x strips
LoA (some cut this)
1x jet
1x pearl
1x sapphire
1x lotus
1x sol ring
a suitable manabase for yer build


that is pretty much EBA right there. all you do is look around and see what you are gonna play against and adapt the deck accordingly.
I do not see the diffuculty that requires a larger thread.

[CSeraph]

Wow - it's Keeper, with 4 mages, sub-optimal draw and missing SB options.

Or... prove (explain) me wrong.

[Zherbus]

Correction:

"Wow, it's Keeper with no red, one less mox, 4 Meddling Mages, and 4 Phids/hate slots"

[riggy]

Wow - it's Keeper, with 4 mages, sub-optimal draw and missing SB options.

Or... prove (explain) me wrong.

I'll take a stab at this.

From my understanding of Keeper, it looks to have a response to everything your opponent does and then only after the opponent had blown his initial wad, go for the kill. My reasoning behind this was watching Abe Corsent (sp?) play his Keeper deck for all of last Spring, followed by fellow TMDer Klep playing a metagamed version of Zherbus' "Clinger." The former would use his search and draw to get Swords, Abyss and Morphling. The latter would use it to find Swords, fire/ice and decree.

With EBA, the goal is to proactively remove your ability to cast threats with Duress and Meddling Mage, followed by beating you down with an Angel. It's far more aggro in it's approach to winning.

To me, the difference is that Keeper wants to hold you off ad infinitum and beat you down in xx turns with a Gorilla Shaman or soldiers, whereas EBA wants to stop you long enough for the player to drop an Angel and beat the opponent down in only a handful of turns.

[Apollyon]

The reason that Keeper's idea of controlling the board and slowly winning doesn't work as well as it used to is the fact that decks are much more explosive then they were. Dragon can win in one turn. Tog can play explosive cards like Yawgie's Win. To that end, many Keeper builds have played much more aggressive threats, and some have resorted to a combo kill, to my knowledge. I don't play Keeper to any great extent, and I'm not an expert in the history of Keeper, so my knowledge could be wrong.

The reason that this deck looks like Keeper and Tog is the fact that Keeper and Tog use the same idea: use FoW, Mana Drain, and other powerful cards to win. FoW is the best counter ever printed. Mana Drain is the best non-pitch counter ever printed. Ancestral is the most efficient card drawing card ever printed. Time Walk is 1U for another turn. Brainstorm usually ends up being almost an Ancestral. Demonic Tutor is the best tutor ever printed. Yawgmoth's Will is Yawgmoth's Will.

I like Damping Matrix MD. It shuts down most of the tier 1 decks.

Meddling Mage is effective at shutting down key cards, just as a Chalice is good at shutting down threats. Mage is more easily removed then Chalice, but it is still a 2/2, and can attack, and doesn't die to Mox Monkeys, or any of the myriad artifact destruction spells.

[LizardKING]

The reason that Keeper's idea of controlling the board and slowly winning doesn't work as well as it used to is the fact that decks are much more explosive then they were. Dragon can win in one turn.

I do not see the point here as Dragon has precisely its most horrible matchups against Keeper. For sure it is not Dragon that causes changes into Keeper builds.  
[/quote][/i]

[CSeraph]

Zherbus - Is that really a correction, or a clarification? By SB options, I did mean the red spells, and by bad draw, I did mean phid over scrying. Doesn't hurt to lay everything out I suppose  .

on topic -
The thing about the 'more aggressive' stance of EBA w/duress, mages etc, is that I don't see that the kill engine of the deck optimizes it. Duress is great in Tog because it takes something good that would disrupt Tog's plan, and then Tog draws lots of cards and kills you because you don't have it. This gameplan looks a whole lot worse when your game-winning package includes of 2/2s for 2 and 1/3s that may not actually deal damage. These guys get blocked and killed by Mishra's factory, for god's sake!

It seems as if EBA is a good/bad deck in the same way that many people feel Keeper is a good/bad deck - good, in that it runs lots of good cards, and sometimes those bring it the win - but bad, because its overall gameplan is not optimal. To me personally, EBA's plan seems even worse than Keeper's - Keeper at least knows what it wants, while EBA seems unclear on whether it is trying to control the game (drains) or just disrupt and beat (mages).

Another apparent difference is that Keeper does have matchups where it actually hold advantages over competitors like Tog and Slaver. Does EBA?

If it mostly doesn't, one direction I can see EBA taking to give it some real strategic advantages might be towards some U/W fish like build - Meddling Mage is still really good in Fish.

[proGaming]

This thread sparked an interest for me to start playing the deck.  After playing this deck around 30 games, i've been having a REAL hard time with my mana, It just seems that I miss my 3rd or 4th land drop most of my games and against a deck with 5 strips my mana base just gets crippled, anyone else having problems with the manabase instability?  For reference here is my decklist (I started with Wu's and made a few changes of my own).

// EBA

// Lands
    1 Library of Alexandria
    1 Strip Mine
    4 Wasteland
    4 Flooded Strand
    1 Island
    4 Tundra
    4 Underground Sea
    1 Plains


// Creatures
    4 Meddling Mage
    3 Ophidian
    2 Exalted Angel

// Spells
    3 Duress
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Lotus Petal
    2 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Damping Matrix
    1 Demonic Tutor
    2 Decree of Justice
    4 Brainstorm
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Time Walk
    1 Fact or Fiction
    4 Force of Will
    4 Mana Drain
    1 Yawgmoth's Will

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Damping Matrix
SB: 1 Moat
SB: 1 Aura Fracture
SB: 3 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Coffin Purge
SB: 2 Stifle
SB: 2 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 3 Dust to Dust

[wuaffiliate]

was it on apprentice? because apprentice sucks. built it and sleeve it its much better. 26 sources should be fine.

[Hi-Val]

Keeper runs answers. EBA runs threats that also happen to be answers. Meddling Mage weighs in at a 2/2, which is not bad at all. Combine that with the ability to shut down your opponent's deck for a significant amount of time for no additional mana, and you've got yourself a winner. Exalted Angel hits the table on turn 3 or before, thanks to Mana Drain, and has an additional side ability of totally wrecking any aggro deck it plays against. Every swing with it delays any tier-1 deck by a turn (Slavery needs another attack, Tog needs more cards, etc. to counter the life). This pseudo-Time Walk fits in with the deck's strategy.

The only dedicated hate that the deck runs is Damping Matrix, which singlehandedly wrecks too many decks to name. I don't think there's any dispute in why the card is in there.

[BreathWeapon]

I think EBA best rests as a far more disruptive Control deck than anything else the format has to offer. A lot of decks are not prepared to deal with Meddling Mage. Twister rolls to EBA and Slavery has a terrible time trying to deal with Mage->Goblin Welder. I think it goes with out saying that Phid and DoJ are terrible choices for the deck. Exalted Angel is the only win condition I would ever run, because unlike Decree the Angel will single handedly bring the game home vs Aggro. The deck plays more pro-actively than Keeper, which allows EBA to go beat down instead of worrying about what the opponent is doing.

Ultimately EBA is a strong deck in the environment because its threats and game plan are dynamic. The deck plays unlike anything else in the format and that essentially is its key strength vs the field.

At any rate, here is the list I have been the most happy with.

Disruption (16)
4xForce of Will
4xMana Drain
4xDuress
4xMeddling Mage

Draw/Search (11)
1xFact or Fiction
2xSkeletal Scrying
4xBrainstrom
1xAncestral Recall
1xTime Walk
1xDemonic Tutor
1xMystical Tutor

Kill (3)
3xExalted Angel

Meta (2)
2xDamping Matrix

Broken (2)
1xMind Twist
1xYawgmoth's Will

Mana
1xLibrary of Alexandria
4xWasteland
1xStrip Mine
4xFlooded Strand
4xTundra
4xUnderground Sea
1xIsland
1xPlains
1xCity of Brass
1xSol Ring
1xBlack Lotus
1xMox Saphire
1xMox Pearl
1xMox Jet

[proGaming]

was it on apprentice? because apprentice sucks. built it and sleeve it its much better. 26 sources should be fine.

Nope, I always use MWS.  Not sure if I want to make it IRL though (the only 2 pieces of power I don't have is a Sapphire and Pearl) and in my area, no proxies are a loud

[wuaffiliate]

ive been liking mages less and less vs slaver and draw7. they just chain the mage and win, or slaver can just duplicant it and win. they both have ways to deal with your "silver bullet" against them, ive used mages for a long while in uw landstill and ive been really disliking them.

when looking at your list there is really no reason not to just play more disruptive keeper, its basically a weak keeper build that runs over aggro and has a terrible match vs control and has an ok match vs combo.

you have nothing to give you the upper hand vs control at all, decree is money in the bank vs control, angel goes dead or farming vs control.

[Hi-Val]

I don't see how you think that the deck has nothing against control. It runs just as many counters, Duress, and a kill condition that simultaneously uses Drained mana and dodges Mana Drain. The deck runs eight threats, four of which can by themselves shut down the win condition in a lot of control.

How much have you playtested EBA to be making those claims?

(edited for spelling. Don't drink and post)