Landstill, taking a 2nd look.

[OPColby]

I've just done some playtesting, and although a maindecked maze of ith would help greatly against many matchups, it would also be quite a burden against many others.  Against Tog, the ability to pitch a fire/ice with a misdirection and duress the Tog player is extraordinarily wonderful.

Although, this does not rule out the possibility of maindecking a maze of ith, the question simply presents itself:  What do I replace?

My deck is as follows:

27 Mana Sources
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Faerie Conclave
4 Volcanic Island
4 Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lotus Petal

4 Removal
4 Nevinyrral's Disk

7 Core
4 Standstill
1 Teferi's Response
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

14 Counterspellishs
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection
3 Stifle

8 Burn
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice

60 cards total maindeck.

15 Card Sideboard
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Maze of Ith
3 Dream Tides
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

[jazzykat]

Against Tog, the ability to pitch a fire/ice with a misdirection and duress the Tog player is extraordinarily wonderful.

I don't get how you are duressing a tog player? Furthermore you will have matchups (like you and others stated) where maze of ith is a totally dead card. That is the reason I like red so much in standstill as I can always set my opponent on fire!(that is for another discussion though).

Best of luck.
Jazzy

[DEA]

what, you're using jedi mind tricks to make the opponent think he's playing against himself?
duress works on a target OPPONENT, colby

[Shock Wave]

What's good Tog sideboard, aside Maze of Ith and Red Elemental Blast?

Well yes, but remember that 90% of control mirrors are decided by who draws the most cards. That means that you'll want to cripple Tog's draw engine. You have Tormod's Crypt to do this, and it should *always* be boarded in.

[firebird365]

Regarding the mana base, would it be a mistake to use Shivan Reef over a fourth Island? I sometimes find myself lacking in red mana, but I suppose another Island is better for Back to Basics or Blood Moon.

Also, I'm left with 1 MD slot for a tournament (I have no Time Walk  )... what would be a good replacement for the card? I'm basically running the same list as OPColby, and I'm wondering how a 4th Stifle would work out in the MD, or if I should play Teferi's Response, Chain of Vapor, etc.

[Added]: I've been playing UWr Landstill in a local tournament, and it's been doing fine. Wastelands aren't especially popular here, however... is there a reason why everyone denounces 3-color Landstill? I still run 3-4 basic Islands, so I'd think the deck would perform the same under Blood Moon or B2B. As of now, the mana base looks like this:

x4 Tundra
x4 Volcanic Island
x2 Flooded Strand
x4 Wasteland
x1 Strip Mine
x1 Library of Alexandria
x3 Faerie Conclave
x4 Mishra's Factory
x3 Island
x1 Black Lotus
x1 Mox Sapphire

x28 TOTAL

Potential changes are:
+1 Flooded Strand (29 sources)
-1 Island +1 Mox Pearl
-1 Island +1 Flooded Strand

Are there any arguements that are more compelling?

[OPColby]

White, to me, seems like a weird color to go three on.  Even though I've experimented with it, the only thing it has to offer aside StP is decree of justice, and I'm iffy on that card.

I'd go with black and just throw in two tutors.  Can't go wrong with a tutor for ancestral recall, nevinyrral's disk, or another standstill.

You also get to put Perish in the sideboard, and tutor for that as well.

[Machinus]

White is used for balance, enlightened, doj, stp, and sometimes chant. I think it is viable, but red has fire and sides REB...

[OPColby]

Balance wipes out your lands and cards in hand, Decree of Justice is almost always a dead card, unless you drain them for a crazy amount and then resolve it next turn, Enlightened is great, but having two tutors instead of one is much more acceptable in my own sights, StP is crazy useful sometimes (like vs. Tog,) but usually Lightning Bolt or Fire/Ice is better because you can burn your opponent in addition to the creatures - so you don't really need to add in white for creature removal, and chant is just well...I dunno.

To answer the question about why 3 color Landstill isn't usually cool is that you honestly get mana-screwed alot of the time.  I have no idea why, but when I tried it, it almost seemed as if I couldn't get either a volcanic island or a tundra down when I needed it for the StPs or the Fire/Ice.

Take this for an example.  Your opening hand:

Standstill
Stifle
Mox Sapphire
Mishra's Factory
Polluted Delta
Fire/Ice
Swords to Plowshares

What do you use the Flooded Strand for?  Either way, if you don't draw either a Tundra, or a Volcanic Island (whichever one the opposite of that which you use the fetchland for), you're going to have a dead card in your hand for a while.  However, if that Swords to Plowshares were a Lightning Bolt, you would have no problems whatsoever.

I think is the reason that I got frustrated with my mana so much.

However, let's take this as an example:

Standstill
Stifle
Mox Sapphire
Mishra's Factory
Polluted Delta
Fire/Ice
Demonic Tutor (or Vampiric Tutor)

I would much rather have this hand.  After the Standstill goes off, here comes whatever I want in addition to the three cards I just picked up.

Theoretically, also, black is the color to play here.

Look at the color wheel of magic:  If we were to add in white, it would give blue an ally, but red an enemy.  While blue and red are already enemies, white does not work well with red, especially when competing for, (let's face it,) creature removal.

However, black is used in the deck solely to tutor spells of it's allied colors, and to kill off green creatures (Perish in the sideboard) which are a bane to the primary blueness of the deck.  White, on the other hand, is an ally of green, and not going to help your matchup versus Oshawa Stompy, unless you have disenchants in the sideboard for the Null Rods (and this can be solved by chain of vapor).  The only thing white will help you do is take out black (which this deck does not have problems with aside duress, and white can't cure that,) and make an enemy in your red burn spells.

Black, I believe, is the obvious color to use when making a three-color Landstill deck.  Two tutors MainDeck (which only use 1 black mana each,) with three Perishes on the sideboard.

Tell me what you think.

If I were to make a Urb Landstill, this is what I would have:

27 Mana Sources
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Faerie Conclave
4 Volcanic Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lotus Petal

4 Removal
4 Nevinyrral's Disk

8 Core
4 Standstill
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

14 Counterspellishs
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection
3 Stifle

7 Burn
4 Fire/Ice
3 Lightning Bolt

60 cards total maindeck.

15 Card Sideboard
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Maze of Ith
2 Perish
1 Chain of Vapors
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

From my MainDeck, I took out 1 Teferi's Response, and 1 Lightning Bolt.  I took out the Dream Tides from the Sideboard, and put in 2 Perishes and 1 Chain of Vapor.  (as I didn't have chain in there before, and now you can tutor it)

Of course, you are extremely susceptible to Blood Moon and Back to Basics now, but you were before, and disks (and the chain of vapors) can still remedy you of your problem, unless they have out some freaky chalice for 4.

I should also mention, it's rather cool to vampiric tutor, then ice something and draw the card.  Especially if it's a standstill, perish, chain, tabernacle, winning lightning bolt, or winning time walk.  The time walk is particularly cool, especially if your opponent is at a low life but has a huge creature out, because you just tapped it, and now get to attack for two turns!  A tabernacle will only take three mana to get out on the board from the depths of your deck, and only two with Demonic Tutor.  The synergies of vamp tutor and ice are wonderful.

Tell me what you think.

[Eastman]

Can we stop calling Stifle a counterspell? It's a misnomer that likely leads to erroneous interpretations of the cards function in this deck.

[TheRock]

OPColby: I have tried U/B Landstill, and I it does have some viable options for Landstill, but it did not the success that I wanted to.  Black was better off as a support color and thus, I feel that it is the best third color for Landstill to splash.

However, I don't see Yawgmoth's Will or Mind Twist anywhere in your list.  These cards are so sick[/u] in this deck and they NEED to be in there.  These cards offer Landstill the ability to make game altering plays that it never could do before.

Shock Wave is right, drawing cards is the key to winning control matchups.  Mind Twist and Yawgmoth's Will scream card advantage at the top of their lungs so bad that you can easily tip those scales.

[Arvid]

Hi everyone, I've played U/R for a long time now, for the moment experimeting with the U/W build. Here's my thoughts:


Psychatog, MaskNought and Big'O - improved matchup.

Sligh, R/G, any deck with small and a lot of creatures - not improved.

Fish - pretty much goes under the category "small and a lot of creatures" although Fish plays around Standstill which means DoJ might improve here. Possibly it compensates for the loss of F/I making it almost the same as before.

Control - possibly not improved because the lack of REB, although DoJ might be good here so I don't know yet.

The rest - pretty much unchanged.


Is this about right?

So, if this is right, what can I do about it? What can I sideboard to outlive the weenie hordes? Maze of Ith, Chalice of the Void and CoP:Red springs to mind.

Sideboarding against control with the U/W build seems .. hm, I don't know what to sideboard really, usually I had the REBs but now, what?

Against artefact heavy decks it seems to be pretty much the same, Serenity is probably even better than Rack & Ruin except against Tangle Wire 'cause then you would want an instant. Comments here?

Is Dismantling Blow worth it? Is it worth playing a 1cc more expensive Disenchant for the possibility of kicking it in the mid/late-game for two cards?

Thanks!

[OPColby]

For Yawgmoth's Will and Mind Twist, what two cards am I going to take out?  Two more lightning bolts?  Might as well just get rid of the one extra and make it a Badlands, and switch the Polluted Delta and Flooded Strand to two Bloodstained Mires.

The decklist would then look like this:

28 Mana Sources
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Faerie Conclave
4 Volcanic Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Badlands
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lotus Petal

4 Removal
4 Nevinyrral's Disk

10 Core
4 Standstill
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mind Twist
1 Yawgmoth's Will

11 Counterspellishs
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection

3 Misnomers That Likely Lead to Erroneous Interpretations
3 Stifle

4 Burn/Stall
4 Fire/Ice

60 cards total maindeck.

15 Card Sideboard
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Maze of Ith
2 Perish
1 Chain of Vapors
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

[Meddling Mike]

Can we stop calling Stifle a counterspell? It's a misnomer that likely leads to erroneous interpretations of the cards function in this deck.

It's really hard to put stifle into a category, I suppose it could be considered a counterspell in that it's a spell that counters something, however not a spell. It could also be considered LD for killing the fetch effect. I guess overall it'd probably fall under "disruption" although it's versatility allows it to be a number of things.

[OPColby]

While taking out 3 Lightning Bolts for Yawgmoth's Will and Mind Twist certianly improve your chances versus control (unless of course you need that burn real bad near the end,) it weakens you significantly versus aggro decks.

What else could we take out, aside Burn?

[TheRock]

Yawgmoth's Will is good against everything that has ever been created.  It's not an instant answer like Lightning Bolt is, but even aggro is afraid of it.  

I don't feel that Mind Twist or Vampiric Tutor are automatic maindeck inclusions.  They are absolutely fantastic, but we have a space issue to deal with as well and there is no way that you would ever cut a Disk, Drain, or FoW from your deck.  It's all if you have the space for it.  (I would want the Tutor more only because I can get Will with it)

You could cut the 3rd Misdirection for one of those cards (which I eventually did) or even the 4th Fire/Ice, but I wouldn't try to cut at anything more than that.  Still, two Lightning Bolts seem to be a minimum for now.

This is the list that I have been testing out for Urb, maybe this might clear things up:

Mana ( 28 )
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Faerie Conclave
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Strip Mine
2 Polluted Delta (threaten having a Badlands at all times)

Removal ( 10 )
4 Nevinyyral's Disk
4 Fire/Ice
2 Lightning Bolt

Counterspells ( 8 )
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

Utility ( 9 )
3 Stifle
2 Misdirection
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk

Raw Draw ( 5 )
4 Standstill
1 Ancestral Recall

Sideboard ( 15 )
1 Mind Twist
14 other cards

Total number of blue cards in maindeck:  23

Vampiric Tutor is in the deck instead of the 3rd Misdirection.  I definitely feel that this is a good call as using Vampiric Tutor to get out a Recall or Will is always useful.

Mind Twist is very weak against some decks, and I am out of space.  I guess we are stuck with it in the sideboard for now.  

Right now, I have all three on-color Moxen in this deck.  I absolutely love the speed and I don't mind Disking away a Mox, especially if I am going to get it back with Will anyway.

In short, I get to keep most of the aggressive aspect of Bolt and Fire/Ice, all while having some game-changing cards as well.  I think this can contend, the only concern is if the mana base can take the strain of your deck while fighting the mana denial of your opponents.

[jpmeyer]

Can we stop calling Stifle a counterspell? It's a misnomer that likely leads to erroneous interpretations of the cards function in this deck.

And people need to stop calling Standstill draw

[firebird365]

Balance wipes out your lands and cards in hand,

I agree, I REALLY dislike Balance in UW (or UWR).

Decree of Justice is almost always a dead card, unless you drain them for a crazy amount and then resolve it next turn,

I find Decree is almost never a dead card; I usually pack 2 in the MD, and worst case scenario, it cycles.

StP is crazy useful sometimes (like vs. Tog,) but usually Lightning Bolt or Fire/Ice is better because you can burn your opponent in addition to the creatures

It's true that burn could be more versatile, but if you're trying to speed up the kill, Decree works nearly as well.

To answer the question about why 3 color Landstill isn't usually cool is that you honestly get mana-screwed alot of the time. I have no idea why, but when I tried it, it almost seemed as if I couldn't get either a volcanic island or a tundra down when I needed it for the StPs or the Fire/Ice.

That's true, it does sometimes have trouble getting a color needed. I feel, however, that this situation doesn't arise nearly as much as people would think, and that the UR deck would have just as much trouble getting colored mana correctly (I run more fetches, and the same number of duals for each color).

Look at the color wheel of magic:  If we were to add in white, it would give blue an ally, but red an enemy. While blue and red are already enemies, white does not work well with red, especially when competing for, (let's face it,) creature removal.

I don't think this argument works here. First off, this isn't type 2, and enemy colors work well together (examples would be B/G - Dragon, U/R - almost every control deck including Landstill, U/G - Tog, etc). Second, I feel that they really aren't working for creature removal, although it is included. White is a stronger MD color, while red is stronger in the SB. I use white for STP (creature removal) and DOJ, and the occasional Disenchant in the SB. However, I only use red for F/I, but in the SB, it provides Rack and Ruin and (more importantly) Red Elemental Blast. It really is incredible.

However, black is used in the deck solely to tutor spells of it's allied colors, and to kill off green creatures (Perish in the sideboard) which are a bane to the primary blueness of the deck.

Perish is a great card to use against Oshawa, but black really doesn't do anything in any other match. The deck is built to be really redundant, so I don't think you need extra search.

Anyway, thanks for the response.

[Marco]

Food Chain Goblins is still my #1 deck, but I would like to try U/w Landstill (over U/r Landstill) on the basis that it reminds me of the old school U/W Control decks I used to play, and I've played U/r Phid lately and want a change. I also want to play with Decree of Justice.

Here's what I'm thinking of playing:

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Nevinyrral's Disk

1 Ancestral Recall
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Misdirection
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Standstill
4 Stifle
1 Time Walk

1 Balance
2 Decree of Justice
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Faerie Conclave
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
1 Strip Mine
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland

Sideboard includes Chalice of the Void, Tormod’s Crypt, Annul, Orim's Chant, Serenity, Maze of Ith...?

Has anyone compiled a list of what you should set a Chalice of the Void at against all of the major archetypes? (For example, two against Food Chain Goblins.)

I'm also intrigued by Humility. I understand the synergy between Decree of Justice and Humility, but how do Faerie Conclave and Mishra's Factory operate under Humility?

Forgive my ignorance, but has anyone tried Eternal Dragon or Shoreline Ranger? It seems like they might be good in Landstill...

[Ifflejink]

It's really just meta-dependent on which build of Landstill you choose. I prefer U/r, though, partly because red adds so many sideboard options and partly because the burn adds the consistent, early game creature removal that Landstill so dearly needs against aggro. If aggro is played little in someone's meta, I'd say U/w is the better choice simply because Decree is a beating, and StP is good against just about every deck ever made.

[xzero]

As others have stated, the 3 color build is obviously not going to work in the face of every deck playing 5 Strips.

I think the UR version has generally better matchups than the UW version.  Fire/Ice is simply that good.  There is no doubt that Plow is the best spot removal spell ever, but in many matchups it can simply be a dead draw.  Fire/Ice either gives you a turn and cycles, kills a d00d or two, or does 2 straight to the dome.  Plow removes creatures from the game.

[OPColby]

The Rock, I think that decklist is simply amazing.  The only drawback, of course, is having two less bolts.  Fortunately, though, the will and tutors are much more useful, as well as having perish as a nice sideboard card.

I might have to switch builds.  :)

[TheRock]

Perish is a great card to use against Oshawa, but black really doesn't do anything in any other match. The deck is built to be really redundant, so I don't think you need extra search.

I have to disagree with that statement.

Perish is a great addition to the deck with the imposing threat of Oshawa Stompy.  However, that is certainly not everything that black has to offer.

Yawgmoth's Will is strong enough to splash for all by itself.  Yet, at the same time, we get to use Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Mind Twist, Duress, Skeletal Scrying, and a hefty chunk of removal spells that was previously unavailable.

And even if this deck were to incorporate Cunning Wish like iamfishman did, black would give it a much stronger drawing spell than Stroke of Genius and a much more general answer than Dominate.

I have complete confidence that if a URW Landstill can compete and thrive, any two-colored Landstill deck with a black splash added can do the same.  And why wouldn't you want to do this when you have a new opponent in Control Slaver to worry about?


Tank:  Humility can do some very nice things in UW Landstill.  If you expect to see a lot of Madness or Oshawa Stompy decks, it is amazing.  

Eternal Dragon is nice but it is not a good finisher at all.  Even though it has the ability to come back over and over, by the time that you get it to really work, you will have already won or are about to win thanks to your manlands and Decrees.

[ctthespian]

Tank:  Humility can do some very nice things in UW Landstill.  If you expect to see a lot of Madness or Oshawa Stompy decks, it is amazing.  

Humility would leave you solely reliying on decree to counteract their 1/1 via Humility.  Humility changes your man-lands into 1/1 non mana producing lands remember.  Moat is by far the better choice over humility, however with O-Stompy running zealots now that's also a problem.  

Cursed totems are another way to hurt many top decks.  O-Stompy loses Zealot, Rootwalla leaving wurms the only large threat.  TOGs can then be taken out by a factory and Slaver looses the welding of artifacts that it needs so much.

-Keith

[xzero]

Damping Matrix > Cursed Totem

[Azathoth]

I'm a little confused to see Chain of Vapor missing from the lists I see.  I've been playing U/r Landstill for several months, and in my experience Chain of Vapor is the best removal the deck packs. Here is my List(missing Lotus, UMox, TWalk, and LoA because I don't own them):

Card Drawing
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Standstill
1 Fact or Fiction

Counters
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection
3 Stifle

Removal
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
3 Nevinyrral's Disk

Mana
1 Lotus Petal
4 Faerie Conclave
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Petrified Field
2 Polluted Delta
3 Island

Has anyone done extensive testing both with and without chains? I would like to hear the results.

[xzero]

Chain of Vapor is either a Boomerang for half the cost, or lets you Disk again.  I don't think that the card is versatile enough to be a 4-of.  It is fairly good, but only in a few (2-3) copies.

[Machinus]

Are people really running lotus petal? If you structure your manabase properly and have sufficient blue sources, it seems like a jet or pearl would be just plain better in this space. This deck needs a lot of colorless mana every turn, I really think this is worth consideration.

Is the idea of resolving response being given up on in favor of the versatility of stifle? I agree that stifle ties up a lot of loose ends and can take advantage of many situations like fetchlands, gorger, etc., but it pushes response out of the deck. Saving a factory and drawing two isn't worth the space?

[jazzykat]

The petal is often better than an off color mox because it can give you 2 blue on your first turn. That is very powerful!

[FireFall26]

Cursed Totem is great. Damping matrix shuts down your disks and cost 1 more, which can be a pain, and usually prevent 1st turns.  Who ever is saying plow is good vs tog is wrong.  Generally tog isnt cast until they have total control, or they know what is in your hand so they can respond as needed.  Many of games I sat with 2 plows in my hand and they winded up being twisted before tog comes out, or just countered from the card draw.  Hulk is a pretty tough matchup, when I played vs it I over SBed.  Mazes are good, but I brought in a moat, and 2 cursed totems which was too much SB.  I wound up loosing good cards in the matchup like misdirection and stifle.  Crypts are not bad too, but once again you start to loose your good cards like stifle and mis-d.  For the 3 spots that people run different cards I ran mana leak as well. I though the matchup vs hulk would be in my favor, but i lost to it twice, beating slaver multiple times.

[Prism]

has anyone considered psionic blasts over bolts? it does less damage for its casting cost, but being able to do 4 points of damage lets you take out threats that you wouldn't otherwise be able to, namely:

su-chi
platinum angel
arrogant wurm
karn
myr enforcer
autumn willow
iridescent angel
urza's science fair project

ok, the last few are obviously jokes, and that list isn't as big as i'd like it to be, but i think it has enough merits to be pondered upon.