[Discussion] How necassary is red in GAT?

[Ultima]

As most know by now, I'm an avid GAT player.  Lately though in my conversations with fellow GAT player and good friend Dave Hernandez, he has insisted that red is a must for GAT.  

I have tried various red builds with GAT in the past.  My problem with it now is that I feel that adding red weakens the manabase and takes away some the consistency.  There have been many times when i couldn't get a 1st turn dryad because of volcanic islands.

Admittedly however, a SB with red is alot better than the 3-color board, that is certainly true.  So how many would sacrifice a little consistency for another color and better board?  Is it really worth it?  Do you feel they balance out equally or not? Can anybody relate to the days when GATr came out and was dominating over everything(including GAT), but what were the notiable changes when playing? Does this metagame need the red?

Discuss please, your thoughts.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I sort of pioneered the 4-color build after GAT's rebirth, and I'll be the first to argue against going with an extra color right now.

Last november, when I top 8'd at Waterbury with splashing red, the format was largely combo-based which made a more controllish (blue) deck appropriate.  Now, the format has shifted back towards a more control-combo and aggro-control metagame (at least where I am), which makes these builds sub-optimal.  Also, null rod and wastelands are in such abundance, that the benefits are not worth the amount of games you lose to mana or color denial.

The exception to this rule is if you play in an environment similar to Columbus.  Here, where possibly 2/3 of your matches will be against Workshop Slaver and Hulk, the added utility of red (or white) can be supported without fear of getting screwed.

In general, however, I think that the more aggressive builds that are performing well (Ultima) need to have the right mana at the right time to power their brokeness.  Tools such as oxidize, pernicious deed, and others should be sufficient for the short time your opponent will live.



edit: However, I'd obviously like to hear Dave's argument for a 4th color

[Ultima]

Dave argues for red because red improves the workshop and slavery matchs to such a huge degree without diluting the control matchs as well.  I have to agree that the red in the SB looks very tempting.

Its very hard not to agree with him on this though, because the ideal metagame - Slavery, Control Slaver, and Hulk make red look very good.  Moreover, I know i said this to both you, Steve and Dave that if GAT can find a way to reliably beat Slavery, its the best deck in T1.

Dave believes that is the route that GAT should take to confirm its presence as a tier 1 as i believe it already is tier 1.

However, i think that something should be said that the ideal metagame is not the real metagame for obvious reasons in which case the 3-color build looks more suitable.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Would you ever have room for an island with a 4-color build?  If not, I just can't see this going through a large tournament (6+ rounds) given the mana base.

[eddavatar]

The one major reason I've red is not really for the whole sideboard thing (even though it's the second biggest reason), and the name of the reason is Fire/Ice, MAIN. I've often found that having just one deed is not enough to handle some situations (eg random dreadnought/beats) and the whole kill target welder thing out of the blue is too tempting for me to pass when I can even pump the dryad with it.

I don't think the red causes any problem to the mana base since the right way to do it is just to throw in a couple volcanics instead of cutting other lands for it (I learned it the painful way but at least I don't autoscoop to wastelands anymore). It's never bad to draw another island unless you are down to topdecking. And if you maindeck stifle, which I do, the mana base is even more stable.

The true issue is, however, the reduced speed that results from the things needed for a stable mana base aka the extra lands and stifle. I do agree that GAT needs to be a little more aggressive now to have a good matchup against the field.

Cutting red is definitely do-able and is worthwhile. Artifact mutation is a lot less potent now that smokestack based decks goes into hibernation. Rack and Ruin and Fire/Ice are useful but its place can generally be replaced by damping matrix since it spell GG against slaver once it resolves. With the more comboish version of GAT we can probably kill aggro at one life or higher to not miss Fire/Ice.

Yet another thing i would like to point out is, what exactly is the optimal number of Deed, main and side? I'm advocating 2 and 0, just simply of the fact that Deed is like balance, with the lack of maindeck removal it's our best bet when things goes wrong and i'm almost never unhappy about drawing it since it at least pumps the dryad. While it's good, I don't think it's good in the sideboard since both the maindeck and the sideboard are naturally tight and is almost impossible to bring in.

PS. Just saw GI's post. In my personal build of GAT/r, I run 2 basic Islands (my meta was plagued with wastelands) There is definitely way to fit the basic, it's just the matter of if you want to be greedy and pack in more juice or if you want to be safe.

[DavidHernandez]

GAT needs the Red Splash.

Here is my current list:

Dave's GAT 04

3 Psychatog
4 Quirion Dryad

3 Misdirection
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll

1 Gush
2 Cunning Wish
1 DEEP ANALYSIS
1 FACT OR FICTION
3 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Brainstorm

1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

1 Black Lotus
1 SOL RING
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
2 VOLCANIC ISLAND
2 Island

Sideboard:
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Berserk
1 Magical Hack
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Coffin Purge
1 Stifle
1 ARTIFACT MUTATION
1 FIRE/ICE
1 Naturalize
1 Pernicious Deed
1 RACK AND RUIN
2 RED ELEMENTAL BLAST
2 DAMPING MATRIX

In the last tourney I played in, I had Fastbond in the deck instead of a second basic Island.  I recently replaced Fastbond because I felt it was dead in my hand too often.  The deck can definitely combo out when Fastbond is on the table, but that really only happens when YawgWill gets cast.  There were several games where I had 2 land on the table for the whole game, and in one case, I had NO land for several turns--just a Mox Emerald and a Mox Jet (this allowed for a first turn Dryad, and I had Force, MisD, Force, Brainstorm, Time Walk to back it up, so I kept the hand).

Also note that I modified Ultima's "GAT 04" build to include Fact or Fiction (in place of 1 Deep Analysis) and that I removed the Mana Crypt in favor of Sol Ring (in testing, I was dying to the Crypt so many times that I have decided it does NOT belong in this deck).  I am also running Mystical Tutor, which many TMDer's feel is a dead card now.  In general, I agree with them, except in certain decks.  Keeper needs Mystical, and I believe that GAT and Dryad Decks need it as well.

I was undefeated in matches.  

As G.I. mentioned, Red can be a bomb against Slaver.  In fact, I faced Workshop Slaver, Mana Drain Slaver, and Keeper, so the Red splash was a huge boon.

Here's a play-by-play from a recent game vs. Keeper:

1-- He attempts to Ancestral.
2-- I Misdirect
3-- He Red Blasts
4-- I mana Drain
5-- He Forces
6-- I Red Blast
7-- I draw 3 cards that win me the game.

REB is too good to pass up.

In a different match (vs. Control Slaver) I had the Artifact Mutation and double Force backup. Dryad got huge while I waited for a Platinum Angel or Mindslaver to hit the table. I rolled over him.

Red in the board offers tremendous flexibility, adding answers that can be Wished for and/or boarded in.  Honestly, the mana base doesn't suffer to the extent that you mention.  I dropped one Mox (Pearl) and a Basic Island (from 2 down to 1) in order to splash the Volcanic Islands, and I never had trouble getting what I needed.  

In games against Slaver, I pulled the 3 Togs and boarded in the 2 Damping Matrix's and a Red Blast, essentially converting the deck to my "She-Hulk" build (shown here for reference):

She-Hulk by Dave H

4 Quirion Dryad

4 Brainstorm
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection
3 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Cunning Wish
2 Stifle
1 Gush
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Ancestral Recall

2 Damping Matrix

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mind Twist
1 Skeletal Scrying

1 Pernicious Deed

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet

4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island

Sideboard:
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Berserk
1 Magical Hack
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Coffin Purge
1 Stifle
1 Artifact Mutation
1 Fire/Ice
1 Naturalize
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Rack and Ruin
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Null Rod

Prior to the restriction of Gush, GAT was the number 1 deck.  Remember that Red was splashed at some point (GAT/r) and that build was beating everything.  As I look for answers to the meta, I keep coming back to Red.  It offers defensive cards that make for a stronger OFFENSE (like Artifact Mutation).

If you are running into extreme mana-denial-hate, you should probably modify your GAT build to include 2 or 3 Stifles in the main deck.  I've been considering that too, but I'm having a hard time finding space for them.

In my opinion, the bottom line is that Red is too strong NOT to play.

EDIT:
Wow, you guys are responding faster than I can type!
@Ed: The Red Splash doesn't slow the deck down.  You only lose an off-color Mox.  Regarding your point about playing aggressively, I absolutely agree.  This deck needs to be played in an aggresive way so that your Dryad grows and your Tog can be fed.  In one game vs. Workshop Slaver, my opponent had 2 CotV out, with 2 and 3 counters on them.  I was casting my 2cc and 3cc spells anyway, because I had a Dryad out.  Since the spells were simply countered, the Dryad still grew.  AGGRESSIVE!!

--Dave.

[JACO]

Regarding 3 colors or 4 colors
From my experiences with this deck, both piloting it and playing against it, it obviously has a fragile mana base in any incarnation of the deck. 3 colors, 4 colors, or whatever, it is still susceptible to mana base issues. The abilility to play another 1-2 basic Islands doesn't really make up for the great cards the Red splash provides us access to. Rack and Ruin, Red Elemental Blast, Artifact Mutation, Gorilla Shaman, Shattering Pulse, Firestorm, and whatever other tech you've got rolled up your sleeve are too much pass up. Brokeness > Pseudo-Stability any day of the week in Type 1

Regarding the Mana Base

Here is my current list:
Dave's GAT 04
...blahblahblah...

1 Black Lotus
1 SOL RING
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
2 VOLCANIC ISLAND
2 Island

...blablahblah....
AGGRESSIVE!!

--Dave.

Everybody who has put any work into this deck knows that it should be played more aggressively, right? SO WHERE IS MANA CRYPT IN THE MANABASE? I see that Ultima ran it in New Jersey, and I think that it's an absolute must if you're not playing Null Rod (i.e. a slower version), as it speeds it up much more than any off color Mox (like the Pearl). If I were playing AggroTog this week, and splashing Red, the following is what I would use:
Mana Sources (23)
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Strip Mine

I'm not going to go into any depth about Strip Mine, because if you find losing to Library of Alexandria or Bazaar of Baghdad problematic, then there shouldn't be any need for discussion. It's a personal preference, so let's move on.

Creature Selection

Dave's GAT 04
3 Psychatog
4 Quirion Dryad

The List
3 Tog
4 Quirion Dryad

So if you guys are trying to improve the Slavery matchup in particular, why are we running 3 Psychatogs? A couple of months ago, some builds were playing only 3 Quirion Dryads and only 2 Psychatogs, for a total of 5 creatures. Granted, this was in a time when more controlling builds were neccessary, but why are you playing 3 Psychatogs now that it is the part that kills you the easiest in the Slavery matchup? If you are playing 2 Damping Matrix in the board, and are bringing them in against Slavery, then they should just be replacing TWO maindeck Psychatogs. Do you really need the third one for any particular matchups? Not really, especially since Dryad is your quickest kill condition against just about every deck, and (in my experience with the deck) is the main kill mechanism. In my opinion, the absolute most amount of Togs that should be in the deck right now are 2, and possibly only 1.

Regarding Draw Mechanisms
How have the Thirsts been working for you guys? They're obviously more expensive than Accumulated Knowledge, so it seems the mana curve of this deck is slowly creeping up to a Hulk like level (which I don't really think is a good thing). I think playing Fact or Fiction in the main (as Dave and I do) is better than not, because it is such a bomb, and is another Mana Drain sink. It is one of the best available options for accelerating the Psychatog kill and slicing through your deck. If you are concerned about Wishable draw power, stick a Skeletal Scrying in the sideboard. While this may seem counterintuitive at first, it is really another bomb if you do the math. As an example, let's say at the end of our opponent's turn we are going to cast Skeletal Scrying and remove 4 cards from our graveyard to attempt to draw 4 cards. We just invested 3.5 points worth of possible Psychatog damage; 1 from the Scrying in hand, .5 from it being in the graveyard, and 2 damage from the 4 cards in graveyard (worth .5 damage each). We then draw 4 cards, which comes out to 6 damage (1 point x 4 cards in hand, plus 2 points from 4 cards later in graveyard at .5 points each). So our investment of 3.5 points of possible Tog damage has ballooned to 6.5 points of possible Tog damage (6 from the 4 cards in hand + .5 from Skeletal Scrying in graveyard).

Debate...

[Ultima]

Well for starters, yes, Steve there is room for 1 basic island.  This is my suggestion for the optimal GAT manabase with Dave's thoughts as well.

1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Island
2 Volcanic
4 Tropical
4 Underground
4 Polluted Delta

Both me and Dave were looking more towards Sol ring lately but in the red base, because you lose the off-color mox there is a smaller chance of going first turn dryad which is what the ideal play is now.  Therefore i opted to put crypt back in.  Dave is right though, crypt can kill and has killed me in more games than i like to remember.

Regarding Deed, i am firmly standing on a single deed MD and 1 boarded for aggro-combo GAT.  I have never needed more than 1 in game 1 and never have a difficulty putting in the 2nd for boarding.  Its just a matter of testing the matchs and truly understanding the weak cards and what should go out.

Regarding Red, i'm still very unsure at the moment.  After testing against both prison and slavery, its a tough choice.  Red really can beat slavery down, but i am confident that 3-color GAT can beat prison consistently without red as my last tourny win confirms.  I just don't wanna weaken any other matchs with splashing another color as i'm already starting to see some weakening against combo playing red. Also like I said the likely hood of playing threats turn1-2 goes down with putting in red.

Regarding 3 togs, I firmly advocate 3 togs.  GAT has to bo aggresive right now and 3 togs are the way to go.  6 creatures are not enough to keep the beats coming.  Its true that dryads kill most of the time but they need that tog backup.  Additionally, you need that 3rd tog to be able to play the tog game at the right time.  GAT is incredible because of its inherent ability to play so many kinds of games in 1 deck, therefore each type of game you play should be at its highest degree especially the tog game which can just win. Example- Hulk Smash, period.  Besides, it tends not to be a good idea to cut key cards which are good against a whole field except one deck.


Regarding draw engines, thirst is what you want, trust me.  As i have said many times before, GAT canNOT effectively beat Hulk by playing AKs.  GAT has to be agressive in all its aspects, threats and draw.  Thirst draws cards now, ak takes time outside of intution.  FOF is a great card advantage card but thirst makes me play another DA for their synergy with each other.  FOF I see as more a SB card for a control meta and I feel its inability to be pitched sometimes makes it too expensive.

As for scrying, i would rather play FOF or something else first.  Simply because of the fact that yawg will is soooo important to this deck that scrying seems conditional.  With Fastbond, yawg wills are way more powerful in GAT therefore, i find scrying to be a card better suited for control GAT.

[Hi-Val]

I run Fastbond in my build to speed up the kill against opponents. However, I feel that to make Fastbond truly shine, I need Future Sight. I added it in, and while slow at times (keep in mind that you can drain into it in the third turn) the card practically reads "resolve Future Sight: Win Game". It ends up winning me games I have no business winning, and it pitches to FoW as well. It has been working out well for me, but time will tell if it stays.

On the issue of Red, my opinion is that the distortion of the mana base is only really worth it if you're able to spend Cunning Wishes to grab things. With the deck running only 2, I am sometimes loathe to grab card draw from the board, knowing that if my other Wish gets duressed or countered, I am in for a long fight without Berserk. In my mind, the only justification for running Red is if the deck can also run 3 Cunning Wishes.

One would need to work out the effective power ratio between 3-color and 4-color and which one killed faster. Three colors gives reliability and speed, which is what GAT really wants. But four also gives flexible answers and more speed (in the form of Artifact Mutation). Three-color seems to be more early-game centered vs. 4-color, which feels like a midgame deck.

And Thirst For Knowledge/Deep Anal is so good I will never look at AKs again for GAT. To make full use of them though, you really do need Psychatogs to make use of the juicy graveyard.

[BreathWeapon]

I can't live with out red in the SB for GAT or Hulk for that matter. So long as your willing to expand the manabase into some of your business spells you should be fine. Are the two Volcanics enough? I tried the exact same thing in Hulk and alway found that siding Red in vs Landstill and Keeper left me at a disadvantageous position because they would strip/waste the volcanics and leave me with dead cards MD. I don't think you can run less than 3 IMO.

[Ultima]

So far it seems that 2 volcanics and the ruby or lotus is fine.  The reason being that GAT now wins really fast so you only need to use your red business once.  More to it does the red actually slow down the kill a little and if so is it worth it?

[eddavatar]

@Jaco: The whole Red issue, i believe, as you have said don't really lie on the mana-base stability. But it does slow down the deck based on the fact that you need to stuff in a couple volcanics taking out either draw(which leads to win) or acceleration. So to play the extreme combo-GAT, red has to be out. Most GAT doesn't get enough space to fit

The whole psychatog issue is dead on. As i've mentioned 2 Damping matrix in the board against slaver swapping out tog is the best course of action.

I'm still not sold on the whole Thirst/DA engine. Deep anal is a burden in the slaver matchup. Without an outlet, DA cost 4 for 2 cards which is not all that sexy. I also absolutely abhor sorcery(a major reason i've always ran opt over sleigh of hand before). I still believe with dryads, we can afford to run AK without too big of a problem.

And moving on to Thirst. 3 mana is still 3 mana, Thirst just doesn't dig you out of the hole when you are mana light (i would hate to be mana screwed while dumping business spells just to keep the lands/mox) while AK can at least help you dig when you are stuck on 2 mana.

I still don't see the need of Fact maindeck. It is just too clunky. But it's worth testing out.

Ultima & Jaco: On Crypt: I don't know....I can so see myself getting killed by the crypt while just having a dryad that's undergrowing but having the board under control. It really depends on how many cards that's over 3 mana are in your deck. I wouldn't disagree on ultima's build or dave's build utilizing it.

Hi-Val: Future sight is too clunky and too much of a win-more card. Fact should do the trick if you are looking for the extra card drawing kick.

[Ultima]

@ Eddavatar

As I have already refered to in other posts, if run AK you lose to Hulk.  That's just the way it is, and all of us that know that match-up and have been playing AK know that.  Besides I without playing intuition, AK doesn't get you cards now, their more like expensive cantrips until the the 3rd and fourth.   GAT needs to draw cards NOW, that's what thirst and DA do.

[BreathWeapon]

Wtf, my last post just disappeared from this thread. Oh well, i'll type it again.

What do you guys think about Chains of Mephistophelese in the MD? If we can circumvent draw via Impulse and Sleight of Hand could we put the Chains to use in a similar manor as Eastman's Keeper? Just a random thought I had.

[Ultima]

It doesn't seem like a plausible idea it one your main kills is Tog.

[Jakedasnake]

I've really liked Red in GaT for quite a while. Sure, it obviously weakens some of your stronger matchups, but it does a LOT to improve your Slaver Matchup, which is just brutal. Having red in GaT weakens your strong matchups so marginally that it really isn't worth considering.

Plus, you're still able to run 4 Seas and 4 Trops, which is almost always plenty with 4 fetchlands.

[illuzion]

What's with the Magical Hack in the side?  Is it primarily for Blood Moon?  How much use do you folks get out of it?

[Grand Inquisitor]

I don't mean to sound harsh, but Chains of Mephistopheles is a terrible idea.  As Ultima mentioned, Psychatog needs card draw, and this deck can't exist without brainstorm.

Regarding red, I've been down this road before.  Much of this is probably metagaming, but a 4th color would result in me losing many more matches to Fish, Suicide and Landstill which I still see at tables.  

Additionally, I see it as a slow slide towards a more controlling deck, which is clearly not the direction the deck wants to go.

As for Thirst for Knowledge, the card has actually been pretty average for me.  Sometimes its ok, but sometimes its down-right lousy.  Ultima, you described AK as an expensive cantrip; Thirst fits that description even better in my opinion.  Dropping artifacts has no synergy with the deck, and their are only two other cards in the deck you may want to discard.

However, the results are persuasive that its the right call, and I know very well that AK-GAT can't beat Hulk reliably.  I guess its a necessary evil.

[Jakedasnake]

Well, the Red Splash definitely is a metagame call. It hurts the matchups you mentioned, but it really improves the Hulk, Keeper, and Slaver matchups. In a more 'ideal' metagame, I'd play with the Red splash.

Thirst for Knowledge has been nothing but excellent for me. I don't really ever not like drawing it, and at the very least it pumps 'Tog, but it also helps you filter through your deck EoT. Sure, it's slow, but with Mana Crypt it's really no big deal, and GaT plays enough acceleration to get it out when you need it.

[Ultima]

Really, the red doesn't improve the control matchs because they so easy anyway.  When playing 3-colors, Duress rips all those decks apart also.  GAT has a real easy time against control because it can be so aggressive and controllish at the same time.  Its ability to shift roles so fast is incredible.

Magical Hack was innovated against both bloodmoon and choke. Its Dave's tech and it can be amazing.  Often times against TNT, it just shifts bloodmoon to screw them instead of you.

[BreathWeapon]

Chains was just a random thought, good or bad, but its pretty damn amusing to watch Slavery go WTF? It really wasn't that bad, or atleast as bad as you would give it credit for. IMO, I haven't been really happy with any of the proposed Draw Engines for the deck. Thirst has been jank tastic, leading me to play around with Skeletal Scrying (No its not anti-synergistic with Tog).

[Ultima]

Scrying isn't good with GAT, not because of Tog but because of Yawg Will.  Will is so important to GAT, even in the early game because of Fastbond that scrying just ends up hurting more than helping alot of the time.

[DavidHernandez]

Random answers:

* Scrying is not good with GAT, but it IS good with Dryad Hate. More on this later.
* Red doesn't slow me down.  I'm actually a little surprised that this was a concern.
* 2 Volcanics and a Ruby are enough.  The Red Splash only requres one Red mana in the cc of all of the spells I use.
* Ultima answered the Magical Hack question.  A BEB might be better, but Hack is a personal pet project of mine..
* 1 Deed main is enough, though there are times I want 3 cuz it's such a bomb.

@JACO:
I had Mana Crypt in the deck, and increased my win percentage when I took it out.  Our environment plays a lot of control, which drags games out.  This means there are more turns available to die to the Crypt.  The night I swapped it out, I didn't lose a match.  

3 Togs are enough. I was running 2 (as you suggest) but agreed to run 3 to test with Ultima.  I agree with Ultima where he said:

Regarding 3 togs, I firmly advocate 3 togs. GAT has to bo aggresive right now and 3 togs are the way to go. 6 creatures are not enough to keep the beats coming. Its true that dryads kill most of the time but they need that tog backup. Additionally, you need that 3rd tog to be able to play the tog game at the right time. GAT is incredible because of its inherent ability to play so many kinds of games in 1 deck, therefore each type of game you play should be at its highest degree especially the tog game which can just win.

Regarding the Slavery matches, I take all 3 Togs out in favor of Damping Matrix and Red Blast (or Artifact Mutation).  I found that this worked great.  What I meant by aggressive is that you need to play GAT in an aggressive manner.  You mentioned Dryad being the main kill, and I agree with this.  Togs are a bonus.

As for Thirst's, they are surprisingly good!  You can rifle through your deck quickly, get cards you need, and then fill the graveyard for the Tog and YawgWill.

The 'fragile' mana base is exactly that.  This is why I advocate 22 mana sources that all produce color.  I used to run the LoA and the Strip Mine, but pulled them out in favor of on-color sources (about 2-weeks ago).  I have not missed them.  I've had 2 opponents drop 1st turn LoA against me, and in one case, draw an extra 10 cards, and I still won.  Dryad gets BIG.  FAST.

I was running 1 Skeletal Scrying in the main for a while, and really liked it. But, with Mana Crypt I was finding myself dead or unable to use it, so I pulled it.  Then I pulled Mana Crypt.  Now that you mention it, I may put Scrying in the side.  

I agree that FoF belongs in the main.  I swapped out one of the DA's for it, and have not regretted it at all.  What an amazing card.  However, Ultima's argument is good:

FOF is a great card advantage card but thirst makes me play another DA for their synergy with each other.

Back to the mana base, I'm considering 2 Stifles in the main to protect against Wasteland/Strip, or to gain tempo vs. Fetchlands.  It's also great against the Keeper players with DoJ.

@Eddavatar:
The Thirst/DA engine is working great.  

Also, you said:

Deep anal is a burden in the slaver matchup

I did not find this to be a burden.  In fact, the reaction I got from Nick (playing Mana Drain Slaver) when I went to cast the DA was "...ugh...".  DA is too resiliant to ignore.

You also said:

I still don't see the need of Fact maindeck. It is just too clunky.

Yet, when I played it against you, you said "!! You play that main deck!?"...and then you lost.  FoF is huge in this deck.  I used to keep it in the sideboard, but I dont like fishing for it at the end of the opponent's turn.  It's the same casting cost as DA and can net you more cards, or at the very least, give you exactly what you need to win.  Part of why I think I can run it in the main is because of the number of Misdirections I run (3-4) in the main.  I'm able to protect the FoF better.

and you said:

Ultima & Jaco: On Crypt: I don't know....I can so see myself getting killed by the crypt while just having a dryad that's undergrowing but having the board under control. It really depends on how many cards that's over 3 mana are in your deck.

..which I agree with.  I've gone back to Sol Ring.

@Regarding Chains:
Don't do this.  GAT needs to draw cards in order to operate.  Chains is a good card AGAINST it.

@Hi-Val:

I run Fastbond in my build to speed up the kill against opponents. However, I feel that to make Fastbond truly shine, I need Future Sight.

Yeah, I felt this way too, but with the light mana base, I couldn't get the 2UUU fast enough to make it work consistently.  Whenever FS hit the table, it was game, but it seemed like a 'win-more' play, so I took it out.

You also said:

On the issue of Red, my opinion is that the distortion of the mana base is only really worth it if you're able to spend Cunning Wishes to grab things. With the deck running only 2, I am sometimes loathe to grab card draw from the board, knowing that if my other Wish gets duressed or countered, I am in for a long fight without Berserk. In my mind, the only justification for running Red is if the deck can also run 3 Cunning Wishes.

Again, I don't feel that it distorts the mana base.  However, you make a good point about only having 2 Cunning Wishes.  For a while, I was testing with 3 CW's, but found that I would rather have DA or FoF or MisD.  The CW's are precious commodities, but 2 have been enough to get what I need (when I need it).

--Dave

[Blitzbold]

When browsing the forum for an inspiration for a deck to play at the April Dülmen's tournament I was really impressed by Dave H's 'She-Hulk'. In the expectation of a lot of Slaver-Decks a friend of mine, Chun-Wah Man (Hawk in these forums) and I tuned the list a bit and adapted it to our playing Style.

These are the modifications we made to Dave's list:

-1 Thirst for Knowledge
-1 Misdirection
-1 Mystical Tutor  
-1 Island

+1 Mox Ruby
+1 Strip Mine
+2 Fire / Ice

Swapping Mystical Tutor in favour of Mox Ruby seemed like a mistake to us, but we wanted another source of red mana when playing with 2 Fire / Ice main. Fire / Ice seemed a necessity to us to shoot opposing Goblin Welders. Strip Mine was added because Bazaars and Libraries are usually showing up in high numbers in Dülmen. The possibility to randomly disturb Workshop-Slaver's mana base also seemed attractive to us.

The Sideboard we used was:

1 Berserk
1 Oxidize
1 Naturalize
2 Ground Seal
1 Artifact Mutation
1 Firestorm
1 Rack and Ruin
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Coffin Purge  
1 Echoing Decay
1 Smother
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Pernicious Deed

Hawk went 3-3-1 with the deck while I played to a 4-1-2 record, playcing in the range of 17th - 19th place out of 128 contenders.
The only match I lost was against Keeper, who had 1st turn Library going in both games. He was able to keep me low on manain the first game with an aggressive use of Strip effects and wished-for Stifles and bet me down with Soldiers. In the second game my Ladies were about to finish him, but suddenly he pulled out an Oath of Druids - the only one he boarded in, as he admitted later - and finished me off with the Reclamation-Will-Combo. This was totally unexpected by me since he pitched an Morphling to a FoW earlier that game.
The two draws were against another Keeper and Hulk. Against the Keeper the games simply took too long, while the Hulk player failed to die by his own Mana Crypt in five consecutive turns when he was on 2 life before the 3rd game's extra turns ended.

After the tournament Hawk told me that he was rather often mana flooded but screwed despite only playing 22 mana sources. The same was true for me, being Mana screwed only two times against the Keeper mentioned above and against a Sui-Black.

The two Fire / Ice were very useful for me and earn maindeck slots in my eyes. The lone Strip Mine also prooved to be good.
Both of us sometimes missed the punch of the mighty Psychatog and maybe he should have been in the board as Hawk suggested before the tournament.

[DavidHernandez]

@BlitzBold: thanks for that report!  You did well with it.  I don't want to turn this thread into a She-Hulk discussion, so I'll keep this short.

My build only runs 21 sources because I found it worked fine that way.  Also, you simply have to trust that you dont need the LoA or the Strip.  On-color sources are too important when running so little mana.

I run fewer moxes because I run Null Rod in the Side, which is a total bomb against the field (it's THAT GOOD).

I think you will find that the deck works better with my original configuration.  Remember, the Damping Matrix will shut down Welders and Mind Slaver, along with Hulk's Togs.  The Fire/Ice is better in the SB if you really want to have access to it.

Don't remove the Misdirection from the Main.  It's too important in protecting your spells.  Try it.  Also, the third Thirst for Knowledge is required.  Mystical is normally something I could see pulling, but in Keeper, GAT, and She-Hulk (dryad hate) it's required.

Dave.

[Grand Inquisitor]

the Magical Hack question. A BEB might be better, but Hack is a personal pet project of mine..

What can Hack be used against besides Bloodmoon and Choke?  BEB (and naturalize) seem like much more flexible solutions for a tight sideboard.

I agree that FoF belongs in the main. I swapped out one of the DA's for it, and have not regretted it at all. What an amazing card. However, Ultima's argument is good:

Quote:
FOF is a great card advantage card but thirst makes me play another DA for their synergy with each other.  

So what are you saying?  In builds with two wishes, I love FoF main.  However, if you only have a single DA, Thirst becomes downright bad in my opinion.  I know Ultima has been testing Pulse of the Grid in its place, but I don't think we've found a suitable replacement for Gush with this deck.  I'm even considering going back to AK.

Whenever FS hit the table, it was game, but it seemed like a 'win-more' play

I am a huge fan of this card, but I even I came to this perspective eventually.  I'm mostly talking about more competitive metagames, but this really is just a win-more card most of the time.  The exception to this is if you play in an environment with lots of aggro.  If this resolves against Suicide, stompy, fish, gobbos, whatever, it just owns 'em in a way that no other card will in the early game.

you simply have to trust that you dont need the LoA or the Strip

The whole point of discussion is that you have to back your arguments up with reason.  Playtesting/tournaments should give you evidence which can explain why you don't need these cards.  So far I haven't been convinced.  I also play in a control-heavy metagame, and LoA is awesome, even for an aggressive deck like GAT.  The only reason why I can see it being weak is because you're throwing your hand away to Thirst, which I also think needs to go (or # of DA needs to increase) if this deck is to evolve.

The reason why I think LoA is good, is because decks like Hulk, can use their mana accelerants to 'catch up' with GAT and then kill the dryad, and decks like Landstill can win counter wars (7 pitch counters) to put their disk on the table.

I run fewer moxes because I run Null Rod in the Side, which is a total bomb against the field (it's THAT GOOD).

As well as damping matrix?  Is this in GAT or just she-Hulk?  Can we see an updated list so we can discuss in the entire context of the deck?

[DavidHernandez]

G.I.:

The comment about Null Rods is regarding She-Hulk only, though I started testing GAT with 2 Null Rods in the Side as well (per your request, see list below).

Re: BEB vs. Hack: Hack is really only good for Blood Moon and Choke.  In fact, it's mainly there for Choke.  I wanted an aggressive/offensive card that could hose the B/g decks that I've been seeing out here (specifically B/g Nether Void).  Like I said previously, it's a "pet" card.

I agree that FoF belongs in the main. I swapped out one of the DA's for it, and have not regretted it at all. What an amazing card. However, Ultima's argument is good:

FOF is a great card advantage card but thirst makes me play another DA for their synergy with each other.

 

So what are you saying?

I'm saying that FoF belongs in the main, period.  I wanted to give Ultima's quote because I respect his opinion on this (and he made a good point about Thirst having good synergy with DA), but I firmly believe that FoF belongs in the Main.  I find that one DA and the FoF are great together (though I don't like the sorcery speed of DA, and I'm probably going to remove it altogether).  You may not like the Thirst's as much, but I love them.  The ability to rifle through the deck and get what I need at instant speed (while pumping Dryad's) makes them worthwhile for me.  I almost look at it as a mini Fact or Fiction.  When you FoF, you're going to throw cards away, but I never hear anyone complain about that because you get what you need NOW.

The whole point of discussion is that you have to back your arguments up with reason.

No it's not.

 

...well, ok, it is.

After running the non-colored mana (LoA and Strip) with only 21 sources in GAT, I found that I wasn't pulling the colors I needed, and was getting mana screwed far too often.  When I put in on-color mana, the deck started working better, but was still a little land-light.  So, I added another basic Island and I like the way it draws now.  I don't miss the LoA or the Strip at all, preferring to have the on-color mana sources.  

The deck has enough drawing power to get what it needs.

Can we see an updated list...

Dave's GAT 04

3 Psychatog (considering 2 + 1 Stifle)
4 Quirion Dryad

3 Misdirection
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll

1 Gush
2 Cunning Wish
1 DEEP ANALYSIS (considering using a 4th Thirst for Knowledge or a Stifle)
1 FACT OR FICTION
3 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Brainstorm

1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

1 Black Lotus
1 SOL RING
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
2 VOLCANIC ISLAND
2 Island

Sideboard:
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Berserk
1 Magical Hack (or 1 Null Rod or a 2nd BEB)
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Coffin Purge
1 Stifle
1 ARTIFACT MUTATION
1 FIRE/ICE (or a 2nd Null Rod)
1 Naturalize
1 Pernicious Deed
1 RACK AND RUIN
2 RED ELEMENTAL BLAST
2 DAMPING MATRIX

--Dave.

[Ultima]

I do think that DA needs to go but here is the issue at the core that all us are thinking about.

What is the optimal draw engine for GAT?  

Whiile i know that Dave like the thirsts, both me and Steve are are not liking thirsts right now because they don't actually help gain card advantage but relly try to simply sustain it.

Its like the thirsts are great for keeping me at 7 cards in hand but if i got like 1 or 2 its sssssooooo  bbbbaaaddd.  Without DA, thirsts are really rough which is not so good right now as i'm steering away from DA altogether.

The once we see or find the right draw, can we effectively implement GAT with red?

At the moment, i'm willing to share what i have been doing with GAT.  Especially since my pm is filled with people asking, i fiugre why not?

Steve and Dave are already aware of this, and as Steve mentioned i have been testing Pulse of the Grid.  The reason for this was that it seemed that pulse had the dual nature of refilling my hand, pumping my guys, and staying around for more.  But the problem was the uu cc.  While it was amazing for TNT, it was too slow for Slavery.

Additionally, i expect everyone to say, well isn't bad against aggro because they dump thier hand fast.  Logically, this makes sense but in reality NO.  What actually happens and this came out of testing is that YOU dump your hand faster countering their threats and hate to stay alive, with pulse winning you the game by continually cycling thourgh your deck and coming back.

Then i dropped pulse because of the uu and tried thirst again but the drawback was hitting me so hard that i kept trying to find someting esle and not AK.

I then came back to pulse but this time centered the deck around comboing out and finding fastbond immediately.  Because with fastbond, the uu became far less of a problem.  This is thus far proving to be much better and i like where it is right now but i know its not as good as it can be and i'm only hoping that the 5th dawn will yeild some useable cards, as this scrying mechanic already looks really good for GAT.

Current GAT 04

3 Psychatog
4 Quirion Dryad

3 Misdirection
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

1 Time Walk
1 Yawg Will
1 Fastbond
1 Pern Deed

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Gush
1 FACT OR FICTION
2 Cunning Wish
2 PULSE OF THE GRID
3 SLEIGHT OF HAND
4 Brainstorm

1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
4 Delta
4 Tropical
4 Underground
2 Island

SB

1 Berserk
1 Smother
1 Coffin Purge
1 Naturalize
2 Oxidize
2 BEB
2 Stifle
2 Ground Seal
3 Duress

So this is my most up to date list and where GAT stands.

[Matt]

Has anyone tried "steering into the wind" and adding MORE Deep Analysis to go with the Thirsts? Replacing, like, the third MisD or Merchant Scroll or something.

[Ultima]

Yes, i have tried that as well.  The bottom line with DA is that its simply too slow.  There are simply too many times when they were just sitting in my hand because i couldn't play them and not leave counter open.  

Workshop has too many bombs that can turn the tide of a game single-handedly.