Control or Combo Slaver, Which one and Why?

[NoYuo]

It is my experience that Drain Slaver is more resilliant to maindeck hate than workshop slaver is. Many of the Drain Slaver builds I have seen (including my own) run Cunning wish to get sideboard answers to maindeck hosers (Blue Elemental Blast for Blood Moon, Red Elemental Blast for Back to Basics, Shattering Pulse/Rack and Ruin for Null Rod/Dampening, Coffin Purge for Dragon etc...). Also Smmenen mentions that one of Workshop Slaver's key control elements is undermined by Gorilla Shaman.

Slavery's problem is essentially that Gorilla Shaman negates Chalice of the Void, the reason to run Workshops - therefore the Drain version becomes superior.
-Smmenen

from this thread...'Incoherent' metagame

I wonder if its these elements that brought about this comment as well...

The important decks to beat are Drain Slaver and Fish. Focus on these matchups, and the deck will be a force. Drain Slaver is going to be the most popular, and possibly successful deck of the summer - it will be everywhere becuase it has a favorable matchup against all non combo decks that aren't prepared to beat it.
-Smmenen

from this thread... Smmenen's HULK SMASH 2K4, Part Deux: How to Beat up Slavers

[Thug]

Recently I worked on a different version of Workshop Slaver with Stefan (see the deck). He tested a lot with the deck and decided it was time to cut the chalice's. I couldn't believe him, and I actually did play with chalices last tournament, but they often forced me to mulligan hands, and there also were often the reason I bleeded death, left without any business spells.

The latest version includes black for Demonic Tutor and Will. And a maindeck Chain of Vapor has been added (MVP!!!). That card alone has won me games I shouldn't have. It turns Mindslaver into an even more deadly card and it's the best maindeck solution to Null Rods and simular cards (it also does the trick against Dragon btw.). Just yesterday I was sitting besides Stefan and saw him bounce a Null Rod eot, just to twister it away next turn and get a Slaver lock active.

Karn also proved a very good card, since it turn Gilded Lotusses into deadly beaters and meanwhile it also disrupts your opponents by destroying their moxes. But Karn still has to battle with triskelion for a slot, since Trike is amazing in the current metagame.

It might make you wonder why Workshop would remain playable after cutting Chalices, but I generally like the combo approach a lot more than the control approach. And once you settle for draw-sevens Mana drains make very little sence, which allows you to run Workshops because you won't need the double blue.

Also having workshop means you still have acces to better solution for the (IMO) hard matches against combo. With Trinisphere and possible Chalices sb you have a lot better matchup against most combo decks than Drain Slaver does.

Koen

[CMass]

Chalice hasn't been everything I'd like it to be in Shop Slaver lately, but I've been hesitant to cut them outright since sometimes a Chalice does just shut people down.  Instead, I've been picking up the slack with 2 Cunning Wish (in the FoF and Time Walk slots) to add much needed resiliency against hate.   One of my pet wish targets is Chain of Vapor, and I'm loving it as much as you seem to be.  Another gem, surprisingly, is Firestorm.  I'm amazed at how often I've been able to sweep the board of 3-4 creatures and simultaneously set up my graveyard for welder tricks.  The draw-7's in the deck minimize the disadvantage nicely.  A Cunning Wish in a Jar hand is just too good to be true; wish for Firestorm and dump cards you would've been dumping anyway.  It's very nice against Madness, in particular, and it happens often enough to be a real advantage.

That being said, I'm looking forward to trying your idea of splashing black.  Without Chalice set at 2 counters as a major part of the game plan, Walk will have to find its way back into my deck as well.  Adding Will, DT and Walk should up the broken play quotient nicely.  Either way, though, I plan on keeping the Wishes.  They've been really solid for me.  I recommend giving them a try if you haven't already.

[nataz]

I tried wishes initially after playtesting a ton of games against Fish and U/G madness when I was first learning how to play the deck. I was quite frustrated at that point and was looking for answers to improve my win percentage against those two decks that I knew were going to be at a local tourney I was prepping for.

Here is what I found.

on the positive side the wishes made the deck a lot more versatile and certainly upped my win % against fish, UG madness, and FCG. Firestorm, fire/ice, REB, Rack and Ruin, chain etc was awesome at getting me out of tons of sticky situations. I loved the fact that I could have an answers in my deck for null rod, force, Winnie rushes etc. for the bargain price of only two slots main deck.

Like you I also cut the Fact or Fiction and Timewalk.

Here is the problem though; I was using the wish as a crutch. No matter how hard this decks tries, it is not tog, or drain slaver. It is a control deck, but it doesn’t run Drain, and that matters.

I found that I really wasn’t using the wishes to their fullest potential, and often times they were dead cards in hand. Sure, wishing for a firestorm to clear the board against gay red is priceless, except the three mana (blue) for the wish, and the 1 red mana for the firestorm isn’t always the easiest to get. One of the things fish does well is kill your volcanics, and getting 4 non-workshop mana of two different colors in this deck can be hard.

Stifle, waste, nullrod, strip can go a long way to making that not happen. Funny thing is, FCG (at least the ones that did well against me) and UG madness can run many, if not all of those cards also.

After more testing, I found that if I did happen to have 4 non workshop mana down and the window to use it, I probably was getting it from a lotus. And if I had an active lotus out against one of these decks, the battle was half way done because I should also be dropping a fatty and just plain wining.  

Not to mention the fact that the wish bastardized the SB to the point where I was dropping the 7 man plan to try and cram more answers in (big two thumbs down).

In the end it seemed that the wishes were nothing more then a cute trick. It was great when you could wish for an answer and win, but more often then not I’d rather just use the walk or the fiction to go broken. Even if the FoF is hard to cast at times, it is at least as cheap as the cheapest wish->answer.

Just my two cents

-Carter

[Thug]

Chalice hasn't been everything I'd like it to be in Shop Slaver lately, but I've been hesitant to cut them outright since sometimes a Chalice does just shut people down.

IMO there are too few decks out there that still are disrupted enough by a chalice for 2 to justify the slots. Chalices for 0 and 1 can be quite decent sometimes too, but the cards do not really fit the role this deck is trying to play (IMO).

My most common uses for chalice were discarding it to thirst and playing it for 0 to have a welder target. Shaman gets played more and more to fizzle Welders so chalice really isn't all that mot anymore (unless off course you gameplan is to drop the chalice on 1, but this deck runs way too many 1cc cards for that.)

I have played with a single wish for some time, just so that it would pop up randomly and I could draw into it when I needed it. I wasn't bad and didn't force me to run any cards sideboard I wouldn't run without a wish. But too often I found myself hoping it was a business card. Wish is very expensive, since if you fetch a 1cc card with it, your spending as much mana as you would into a FoF.

Recently I tried the Chain maindeck and it has been nothing but amazing. When you play with it, it pops up in the most strange situations and I have to admit that it got better and better as I played with it. At first sight I was mainly seeing the card as an answer to hate, but it has a lot more uses. I saves welders from removal, destroy permanents when combined with Jar, wins games when combined with Slaver, bounces Togs, Deeds, Disks, Dragons, welderd-in fatties, etc.

Here is the problem though; I was using the wish as a crutch. No matter how hard this decks tries, it is not tog, or drain slaver. It is a control deck, but it doesn’t run Drain, and that matters.

Funny thing is that the card in trying now in spot #60 is a single Mana Drain. The slot was before occupied by Shaman, but I like shaman better as a sideboard card, so that opened up a slot. The Drain can be a real suprise your opponent will walk into, and UU is not all that hard to get, only against wastelands this seemed to be a real problem, but wastelands are seeing very little play right now.

Another thing I considered was replacing Workshop #4 with a Ancient Tomb, but I haven't got to tesitng this yet, and I don't really want to, since it's such a crappy idea, but it might just up the consistensy of the deck enough to make this a better "tournament" deck.

Koen

[The Atog Lord]

When considering whether Control Slaver or Workshop Slaver is the right deck to play, one clear flaw in Control Slaver has been its matchup against some Null Rod beatdown decks. As others have correctly noted, the ability of Workshop Slaver to power out large monsters has given it a considerable advantage in the matchup.

Recently, however, ELD has found a clever way to make Control Slaver better against these otherwise awful matchups: Flametongue Kavu. This card allows Control Slaver to attempt to do in matchups against decks like OStompy what Workshop Slaver has always been able to do: drop creatures and fight the aggro deck at its own game. This approach leaves many of the hate cards in the aggro deck itself less useful than they otherwise would be, and FTK is a great card against creature decks.

As for what sort of deck Workshop Slaver is, Smmenen himself has described the deck as both a prison-control deck and a combo deck.

Not only is this deck a hybrid Prison-Control deck (in the strict sense of prison and control), but it also is a combo deck - a hybridization trait of the best decks in the format.

Calling the Workshop build “Combo Slaver� is not incorrect, as it is more of a combo deck than Control Slaver. However, Workshop is a key card in the deck, and a card around which the deck is built. That, combined with the fact that the deck has historically been called Workshop Slaver or just Slaver makes those better names for the deck.

As for Control Slaver, calling the deck “Drain Slaver� is incorrect. This is not just because I wrote the Control Slaver Primer calling the deck Control Slaver, either. The deck is not based on the card Mana Drain. Rather, the deck is built around Goblin Welder and Thirst for Knowledge, and seeking to use those cards in a deck which is capable of playing the permission/control role in a matchup.

One can say that Workshop Slaver also is able to be a control deck. However, Control Slaver is much more of a controlling deck than Workshop Slaver. For example, Control Slaver uses Force of Will to disrupt the opponent’s plan much of the time; from my understanding, Workshop Slaver tends to use Force of Will to make certain that its own plan resolves. Further, even if Workshop Slaver can function as a control deck, no one will have any doubt as to which deck the name “Control Slaver� refers.

[CMass]

I have played quite a few games today with the black splash for Will and DT, and I'm not too comfortable with the manabase.  I was often drawing Underground Sea when what I really wanted was red mana.  A smart opponent running Wastelands can cut off access to red easily enough as it is, so cutting the number of red sources and then progressively thinning them out with fetches doesn't feel so good.  Given the speed of Workshop and the artifact fat this deck packs, Welder isn't quite as necessary in the Shop Slaver deck as he is in the Control version, but it's still good to be able to cast him, not to mention all the red goodies coming in from the board.  I've always felt the Shop Slaver manabase isn't as solid as I'd like to begin with, so I'm not thrilled with tossing in another color and disrupting it even more.  Since Gorilla Shaman is screwing with our Chalices, I say we screw with Gorilla Shaman and replace Chalice with another artifact  bomb:  Serrated Arrows, anyone?  

I have been playing Shop Slaver because I like the "go broken and just win with fat" back-up plan.  In fact, based on my history with the deck Mindslaver is probably the real back-up plan, serving as spot disruption rather than a kill condition.  I hardly ever "combo" anyone out with the infinite slave loop.  I have tested with Atog Lord's Control Slaver, and it has a very different feel that belies the number of common cards that the two decks share.  I found myself relying much more on Welder and Mindslaver with that build, and yes I did love the FTK's in the board.

[The Hamburgler]

Recently I was a bit off-track, and play tested with 710 (AKA my build, "lets go bowling") and have only since the last week recurred my interest in Workshop Slaver. It is funny how two weeks can entirely change a strategy or metagame call, for it wasn't but a few weeks ago I was flamed for adding black, and persisted to cut Chalice of the Void. It is especially weak now because Gorilla Shaman just eats it, and multiples generally suck. I <3 Chain of Vapor   , it saves your Goblin Welders and wins the game when played on an opponent (with an activated Mindslaver). I should be replying to your posts right now, once again, sorry to fall off track for a short while.

Thug:
Chalice of the Void can be a meta-gamed choice as well. Fish is absolutely hosed by Chalice of the Void for two, as it runs around twenty two casting cost cards. I find Chalice of the Void for one to be excellent against Control Slaver (in most situations) because it cuts off there draw, Joblin Weldars (with the ghetto) and most effectively Gorilla Shaman, a threat you don't have game one. I think it's a bit weird to run a single Mana Drain, as the spot could be filled with utility or tutorage to help get the broken, or maintain a lock on your opponent. I would appreciate a list. Recently I have entirely cut Ancient Tomb, as the two mana was redundant, as Workshops generally took care of any mana disabilities (void: Wasteland) and a good player would wait for the U/R mana source, as everyone knows the deck is very mana inconsistent. Not to be repetitive, but I would appreciate a list of your build of Workshop Slaver.

PS: Great job on MUD/wMUD, I played both when they were the mecca of Workshop control, and have persisted Workshop biased decks ever since.

Nataz:
All I have to say about the Fish match up is:
Chalice of the Void (2) > Fish. Cunning Wish is reactive in the deck, where as workshop slavery is a proactive based deck. Workshop already has a huge advantage because it can simply lay down threats (when a Null Rod has resolved) making the Null Rod not as effective, and gives you a threat-based main deck answer to Null Rod. Therefore Cunning Wish is not needed. Fact or Fiction is just a bigger Thirst For Knowledge, except it generally leads to an opponent conceding when played during an opponent’s turn (and they are Mindslavered). The sideboard is very important, and Cunning Wish does bastardize it. I have been testing Overload to much success, as it rids Null Rod, Damping Matrix, Gilded Lotus etc.

The Atog Lord:

Control Slaver uses Force of Will to disrupt the opponent’s plan much of the time; from my understanding, Workshop Slaver tends to use Force of Will to make certain that its own plan resolves. Further, even if Workshop Slaver can function as a control deck, no one will have any doubt as to which deck the name “Control Slaver� refers.

True, Control Slaver uses Force of Will as both a defensive and offensive counter, as it can clear threats or cripple production. Workshop Slaver is much more reliant on Force of Will on Null Rod, Energy Flux etc. It is played as a defensive card in workshop slaver, and very rarely treated differently.

When considering whether Control Slaver or Workshop Slaver is the right deck to play, one clear flaw in Control Slaver has been its match up against some Null Rod beat down decks. As others have correctly noted, the ability of Workshop Slaver to power out large monsters has given it a considerable advantage in the match up.

I don't find this difference overall dramatic in each decks success against the "Fish" archetype, or other beat down Null Rod based decks. Dropping down a resolved "timmy" is a lot harder than it sounds, Null Rod cripples production, Wastelands kill the Mishra's Workshops and they still have counter backup. I think that Control Slaver has more of an advantage, with the ability to Cunning Wish for on-spot answers, Mana Drain a big target and play a "timmy", which voids Wasteland and it can use Gorilla Shaman in desperate situations. (this includes eating the Null Rod and moxen then Weldering).

I had the same results with FTK. It is an amazing sideboard option, and clears multiple threats from the board. Firestorm is amazing as well, and in recent testing has cleared the board of Goblin Welder and Gorilla Shaman, meanwhile dumping a PentaBus and a Mindslaver in the 'yard.

Cmass:
I don't understand your results, as the deck with black runs more red sources than the original Slaver lists. Serrated Arrows < Triskelion, to answer your post in short.

Thank you for replying, sorry for not keeping as sharp and up to date as I normally am. Has anyone produced any new lists? Ideas? Spare food?
- The Hamburgler

[CMass]

As to the number of red sources, I tried the manabase in the link that Thug provided, removing Shivan Reef for Flooded Strand.  That leaves fewer red sources in the deck.

My Serrated Arrows comment wasn't meant seriously.  I assumed the emoticon tech made that fairly obvious.

[nataz]

@hamburgerler

Well, that was kind of my argument, that wishes were not needed. I thought i made that clear.

And yes, chalice for two is really good against fish, but having it in the deck certainly doesn’t make the match up favorable. I would say that GayR is one of WS slavers worst match ups. Maindeck grims, stifle, annul, mox monkey (which can kill chalice, moxen, and just be a general pain in the @ss) free counters (daze, force), waste and strip, plus a ton of SB hate make the match a losing proposition in the long run.  

Wish was an attempt to answer that problem, but instead just made the deck more reactive, when its best bet was to just go broken and beat down ASAP.

a warning to all WS slavery players when playing against fish, Chalice is not the end all solution. To assume you even have the mana to cast it, that it will resolve, and that it will stick around is very much wishful thinking.

-carter

[Thug]

Chalice of the Void can be a meta-gamed choice as well. Fish is absolutely hosed by Chalice of the Void for two, as it runs around twenty two casting cost cards. I find Chalice of the Void for one to be excellent against Control Slaver (in most situations) because it cuts off there draw, Joblin Weldars (with the ghetto) and most effectively Gorilla Shaman, a threat you don't have game one.

I almost never cast chalice for 1, unless I have a welder on the table, or have information about my opponent hand etc. The cards you take out against Control Slaver are the same you play yourself with, with the exception of Shaman (which some Workshop Builds play maindeck too) but you also got the Chain of Vapor, so this equals more or less.

I have little experience with casting chalice for 1 without much information against Control Slaver so I can't say much about thus, but if you say it works for you I might to try it again one day. For now I like Chalice more as a sideboard card (if I can find the room for it)

a warning to all WS slavery players when playing against fish, Chalice is not the end all solution. To assume you even have the mana to cast it, that it will resolve, and that it will stick around is very much wishful thinking.

It is funny that you say this, because I can not recall a single Chalice for two I played that resolves against Fish (In tournament play that is). And the number of Chalices (for 2) dazed (so annoying!!) and Fow'ed must be around the twenty already. This is mostly from MUD/wMUD though, so I had no FoW's to back it up. But I can agree that you can't count on the chalcie to win the game against Fish.

This shows another weakness of Chalice is this deck, while it is an artifact it cannot be retrieved with Welder, since it will then enter the game with zero counters.

Recently I have entirely cut Ancient Tomb, as the two mana was redundant, as Workshops generally took care of any mana disabilities (void: Wasteland) and a good player would wait for the U/R mana source, as everyone knows the deck is very mana inconsistent.

How can you say 2 mana that can be used on anything is redundant?? I think that Tomb are the best option to make the mana base more stable. Off course this does not include the colours, just the quantities.

I have very rarely had any colour problems, and I think I actually play less coloured sources than most of you. All my problems were based on quantities, not getting too 2U, or not reaching 6. In all this cased Tomb proved the best solution to the problem.

but I would appreciate a list of your build of Workshop Slaver.

I didn't want to post a list yet, since it was (and is) still in progress, since I only recently made the switch from Chalices to the black splash. I think that I can post my version now, since it's more streamlined and tested than it was before, note however that this list has seen far from enough testing and I have no tournament experience with it yet (since last tourney I wanted to prove MUD still excisted  ). I will post my version at the end of this post with my thought about it, but I first want to respond to a few more things.

PS: Great job on MUD/wMUD, I played both when they were the mecca of Workshop control, and have persisted Workshop biased decks ever since.

Thanks, I think I can say my ultimate goal is maybe to restrict Workshop, 'cause that would finally mean we have "broken" it enough for the DCI to take notice. On the other hand I would off course regret a restriction since Workshop is one of my favourite cards.

As to the number of red sources, I tried the manabase in the link that Thug provided, removing Shivan Reef for Flooded Strand. That leaves fewer red sources in the deck.

That what stefan came up with when he decided to splash black, and I have liked it alot, and have very little complaints about it, the only one is that you don't need 3 seas, 2 are more than enough, so this opens up a spot.

----------

Ok, So here's my last draft for those interested:

Lands: (16)

3 Mishra's Workshop*
2 Ancient Tomb*
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand/Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea

Mana Artifacts: (13)

5 Moxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Black Lotus
1 Grim Monolith*
3 Gilded Lotus

Drawing Cards: (14)

1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Timetwister
1 Windfall
1 Memory Jar

Baroken Black: (2)

1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor

Protection/Utility: (10)

4 Goblin Welder
4 Force of Will
1 Chain of Vapor (insane!)
1 Time Walk

Winnig Games:

2/3 Mindslaver*
1 Pentavus
1 Triskelion
1 Platinum Angel*

Sideboard: (?)

1 Shivan Reef
3 Red Elemental Blast
1/2 Gorilla Shaman
1/2 Shattering Pulse/
2/3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Memnarch
1 Triskelion
x Trinisphere
x Chalice of the Void


the card markered with a * are the most unsure things.
the sideboard is a mess, since I want to fit in too many things, but how to cut down to 15 depends a lot on your metagame.

----------

3 Workshop has been working for me, since it's one of the lands you can least rely on in the deck, backup up with the two Tombs i've have not missed the 4th one a lot.

2 Ancient Tomb they can cause a lot of damage, but there's no sligh anymore, and FCG often explodes into a rush which you either stop, or you die, 2 damage won't change a lot there. Tomb makes it easier to cast Thirsts, Draw-sevens and FoF ealier on, while at the same time acceleration into an early heavy artifact. Remember the first Slaver lists with 4 Tombs? well their sure was a reason for that, this cards are good. It just that the colour requirements have increased a lot, and there's little room for Tombs left, but room can be made.

1 Grim Monolith, without the Chalices I often wished I had one more artifact for Welder and Thirst, and this card fills that in. It also filters can be dropped with a Shop to finally be able to cast that Thirst/Draw-seven in your hand. It's not the best card in the deck, and I'm not sure about it yet, but for now it seems to be pulling it's weight. I wouldn't run this as card #61 though.

1 Fact or Fiction, Welders makes this card even better than Psychatog does, and with 2 Tombs and Grim in the deck, I can rely more on actually casting the card.

1 Windfall, it went in, it went out, etc. But I don't think it will leave again, it's anything you could ask for (it's blue, easier to cast and FoW fodder, it discards the cards), You just have to make sure you are able to play this card early on, and the Tombs help with this.

1 Time Walk, I cannot see why people ever cutted this card, it's soo good. That really all I have to say about it, oh no wait. This card gets even better when combined with Will!!

2/3 Mindslaver, I always felt that there was 1 fatty too much in the deck. By replacing 1 with a Karn I tried to remove this felling since Karn is easier to hardcast, but this didn't do the trick. Right now I'm thinking about cutting a Slaver, since it's by far the most mana intensive card. When I really was looking for one I have had little trouble finding one (when I tested with 2). I would like to hear more opinions about this, even it it's just ... "you'Re nuts"

1 Platinum Angel, some of you might know to I'm not the biggest fan of Memnarch. But my opinion on this card did change some, I learned to appriciate the card. But after a long time I feel that it needs to make place for a maindeck Angel, But this is mainly a metagame thing. Having a maindeck Angel improves the first game against dragon so much that it is worth weakening the first game against other deck a little IMO, but this is because dragon does get played in my metagame.

1/2 Shaterring Pulse/Rack and Ruin. I see very little reason to play overload when you can play with Shattering Pulse, which might cost one more when destroying a Null Rod, but also takes care of >5 Artifacts. The choice between Rack and Ruin and Pulse is a lot harder IMO, and probably is another one that must be made very metagame based.

I'm sure I missed an explanation on something, but I'm scared that I will hit a wrong button and lose this post, so that's it for now folks.

Koen

[The Hamburgler]

Here, and I will edit this in momentarily. This is my most recent build of Workshop Slaver, along with the card descriptions:

GobOwned!
4 Goblin Welder

Draw and Search:
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Tinker
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk*

Protection:
4 Force of Will

Utility:
3 Mindslaver
1 Memory Jar

Yawgmoth’s Will:
1 Yawgmoth’s Will (where else do you put it   )

"Timmy's":
1 PentaBus
1 Sundering Titan*
1 Memnarch

manabase:
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Volcanic Island
3 Shivan Reef
3 Gilded Lotus
2 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring

I use Sundering Titan to some extreme success. It makes your Control Slaver and actually any dual-control biased deck much better, and is such a threat. As you can see, I run no Ancient Tomb, as I have found two fetches to make the deck much more stable in their spots. I still run Time Walk, and am testing Chain of Vapor.
I will be writing a primer type deal on my build of workshop slaver over the next couple weeks, and it will include a tournament report.
I don't like Timetwister and it's bad synergy with Goblin Welder and Yawgmoth's Will, and how it fills my opponent's hand full of answers.
By saying the Ancient Tomb mana is redundant, I meant that the two mana was utterly pointless, and could be better served as a usual land. I would give more, but I will save that for the primer, including the tech sideboard  :lol: .
- The Hamburgler

[Thug]

Replacing some of the fetches with Reefs seems like a good idea if your facing a lot of Fish, but haven't you had any trouble relying on black mana?

Sundering Titan is even more expensive than all the other "timmies", it does a cute effect though, and is 3 turn clock, I might have to test this, but haven't you had trouble with running it maindeck? against decks with only 1 target for your Titan aren't you destroying too much if your own lands?

I think Triskelion is too good not too include, it takes care of welders, shamans, pingers (those are really called timmies btw  ) and can be great in the FCG matchup. Aside from that 6 is so much easier to get to than 8.

Not running Timetwister sounds very odd to me. Too often you are able to play it first turn and create 2/3 card advantage right away. And after a slaver activation this provides your opponent with a full grip for you to abuse. On top of that it can even be pitched to FoW.

By saying the Ancient Tomb mana is redundant, I meant that the two mana was utterly pointless, and could be better served as a usual land.

I understanded what you said, but didn't understand the reasoning behind it, mainly because you're lacking one. As said before Tomb speeds up all >2 card in your deck, which is a huge part of your deck, really the only reason not to run it is the damage, but saying that 2 colorless mana in utterly pointless is just ... wrong.

I have cahnged the sideboard a little, it now includes BEB, which can be sideboarded in against Slaver, FCG, Keeper, 4c Tog and probably even more decks but these are the main targets.

It takes care of Welder, Shamans, Rack & Ruins/Pulses, REB's, Fire/Ice and other random red cards control decks sometimes play. It can also be used against Dragon, but you can't count on this, since only some dragon players keep the combo in after sideboarding and most switch to the verdant plan.

The BEB's have taken the places of Shamans, since they double in function and BEB has more uses and is blue. This also made the Shivan Reef less neccesairry since you have less red cards to board in.

Finally I need to find a way to fit Memnarch back into the maindeck, but I don't want to cut any of the other three creatures. Staying on 2 Mindslaver makes the "big" count not too high, so all I really need is a open spot, any idea's? suggestions?

Btw. I look forward to your primer, but are you sure you are already settled with your version? How did you do in the tournament?

Koen

[The Hamburgler]

Replacing some of the fetches with Reefs seems like a good idea if your facing a lot of Fish, but haven't you had any trouble relying on black mana?

I don't know what you mean, you don't really have to rely on black mana, seeing as you run only two black spells and Gilded Lotus as a back up plan. If you meant something else, edit it for readability, then I will happily answer it .

Sundering Titan is even more expensive than all the other "timmies", it does a cute effect though, and is 3 turn clock, I might have to test this, but haven't you had trouble with running it main deck? Against decks with only 1 target for your Titan aren't you destroying too much if your own lands?

Sundering Titan is the best thing for the deck against control. It is generally a Tinker target, but it is possible to hard cast and (most times) be discarded then weldered back in. A resolved Titan generally wins the game, it has obvious synergy with Trinisphere (you board it in against control) and even if it kills one of your own land, it will hit at least one of your opponents, so it is even (besides that little fact where you have a 7/10 beat stick  :lol: ). After this resolves, your own land doesn't generally matter.

Triskelion:
I received a lot of criticism about my decision to give it the axe of the main deck. The only thing is, Sundering Titan is generally a better answer to aggro, as it cuts production and is an enormous wall and I would rather Memnarch something than kill it. If my opponent has a Goblin Welder in play, I will Mindslaver him, find a Triskelion, kill his Goblin Welder (after using it to my advantage) then kill the Triskelion itself. The difference in casting cost between Sundering Titan and Triskelion hasn't proved to be so dramatic. Either an eight casting cost that wins, or a six casting cost card that clear threats.

Not running Timetwister sounds very odd to me. Too often you are able to play it first turn and create 2/3 card advantage right away. And after a slaver activation this provides your opponent with a full grip for you to abuse. On top of that it can even be pitched to FoW.

This was a hard cut to make, but activating a Mindslaver and Timetwistering all in the same turn was virtually unrealistic. I hate filling my opponents hand full of answers, and stopping a constant Goblin Welder recursion.

I have changed the sideboard a little, it now includes BEB, which can be side boarded in against Slaver, FCG, Keeper, 4c Tog and probably even more decks but these are the main targets.

This is so good, and I am glad to see someone else catch on. The real reasoning between the BEB > REB plan in the sideboard is the lack of hate blue actually has. Blue Elemental Blast stops Goblin Welder, Gorilla Shaman, Rack and Ruin, Red Elemental Blast, Shattering Pulse and Dragon. REB interferes with what the opponent is playing, to stop productivity and tempo. BEB clears nuisance to the deck, and hates the hate.

Memnarch is way to good to miss out on, and I think the third Mindslaver wouldn't hurt. Lack of room in the deck is it's worst quality, as there are so many things that need a slot in the deck. I even forgot to post something that has an insane importance in the deck; Library of Alexandria.

I will be testing, the primer doesn't come out for another month, and it will be based on a power tournament where I played a lot of hate (even if I do bad) because I want to show how the deck handles the hate, which is everyone and their mom's biggest worry. I may be going out of the limb here, but I am convinced that adding black was a good move for most metas, and although my build is still being tested, I will be testing EVERYTHING viable. So far I have put some play testing into:
Deep Analysis, Intuition, Gorilla Shaman (md), Mana Drain, Misdirection, Vampiric Tutor, Windfall, Timetwister, Triskelion, Duplicant, Cunning Wish, Trinisphere, Wasteland effects, Mind Twist and Ancient Tomb have all been cut or changed into other cards. Some cards may look crazy and weird, but are actually good depending on where you play them.
- The Hamburgler

[Thug]

I ment:

Replacing some of the fetches with Reefs seems like a good idea if your facing a lot of Fish, but haven't you had any trouble relying on having black mana?

Since you run less fetches don't you even have problems cating Demonic 1/2 turn?

Sundering Titan is the best thing for the deck against control. It is generally a Tinker target, but it is possible to hard cast and (most times) be discarded then weldered back in. A resolved Titan generally wins the game, it has obvious synergy with Trinisphere (you board it in against control) and even if it kills one of your own land, it will hit at least one of your opponents, so it is even (besides that little fact where you have a 7/10 beat stick  ). After this resolves, your own land doesn't generally matter.

I will try it, since it can also be decent against Dragon, which is one of the main decks i'm scared of.

Triskelion:
I received a lot of criticism about my decision to give it the axe of the main deck. The only thing is, Sundering Titan is generally a better answer to aggro, as it cuts production and is an enormous wall and I would rather Memnarch something than kill it. If my opponent has a Goblin Welder in play, I will Mindslaver him, find a Triskelion, kill his Goblin Welder (after using it to my advantage) then kill the Triskelion itself. The difference in casting cost between Sundering Titan and Triskelion hasn't proved to be so dramatic. Either an eight casting cost that wins, or a six casting cost card that clear threats.

The good thing about trike is that it is alot cheaper than all other solutions you have. If you want to deal with your opponents welder's by slaving them you need a whole lot of mana, where getting just 6 often isn't all that hard.

Same thing against aggro, this comes out soon enough to disrupt there setup (goblin lackey, etc). I like trike alot, since it's never dead. It's also always a 4 turn clock as opposed to the 3 turn clock of Titan, but if you take in mind that trike often comes out a lot earlier, this almost evens up.

This was a hard cut to make, but activating a Mindslaver and Timetwistering all in the same turn was virtually unrealistic. I hate filling my opponents hand full of answers, and stopping a constant Goblin Welder recursion.

It might be because of the Tombs I run, but I never had trouble with this. I often have the mana to twister in the same turn, and it almost always wins you the game. Also often you have the ability te weld a Slaver back in before casting the twister, but even if you cannot I found it isn't that much of an gamble to play it anyway, since there are soo many good thing you can draw.

This is so good, and I am glad to see someone else catch on. The real reasoning between the BEB > REB plan in the sideboard is the lack of hate blue actually has. Blue Elemental Blast stops Goblin Welder, Gorilla Shaman, Rack and Ruin, Red Elemental Blast, Shattering Pulse and Dragon. REB interferes with what the opponent is playing, to stop productivity and tempo. BEB clears nuisance to the deck, and hates the hate.

Thanks, but I'm not sure about the right sideboard plan against a deck like control slaver yet. REB is very valuable since it can stop the opponent from acceleration with a mana drain. And BEB takes care of all there hate. So I would rather would board both of them in instead of just BEB'S, but making 5/6 spots isn't all that easy.

So far I have put some play testing into:
Deep Analysis, Intuition, Gorilla Shaman (md), Mana Drain, Misdirection, Vampiric Tutor, Windfall, Timetwister, Triskelion, Duplicant, Cunning Wish, Trinisphere, Wasteland effects, Mind Twist and Ancient Tomb

I have been over most of these cards too, and some of them are still in my deck.

Duplicant I had in my sideboard last tournament, but I cannot recall using it a single time.

Koen

[Covetous]

I want to start out by saying that I'm personally a huge fan of Workshop Slaver.  I disagree with the name "Combo Slaver" because the deck IS a control deck...Your game plan is to have control over the permanents in play and the spells that resolve.  That defines control for me.  Thus I also favor the name "Drain Slaver" although I'm sure someone will yell at me for using that name.  The way I see it is this--both decks are control/combo decks, but the main difference between them is MW vs. MD, resulting in an entirely different deck design and general game plan.  

Anyway I just wanted to drop my 2 cents in on that...But also, I wanted to get back to the original post by Hamburgler, who obviously put a lot of time and thought into it (which I appreciate).  I'm not sure if I agree with your assessments of how favorable certain match-ups are using Workshop Slaver.  You say that Tog variants are pretty easy matchups, which I think is not entirely true.  While I certainly believe that a decent slaver activation against Hulk is often game-breaking, getting to that point is NOT easy.  I see Hulk decks running MD Mox Monkey, who is truly the bane of your existence as a Workshop Slaver player.  

Also, I think you over-rate Oshawa Stompy and LandStill--both of these matchups can be very managable.  You compare LandStill to Fish, but there is a huge difference--Fish runs Null Rod (which makes you cry) and LandStill doesn't.  Thus, slavering Fish is pretty tough, but slavering LandStill isn't.  And when you slaver LandStill, they cry and often just lose.  Oshawa can certainly put the pressure on you with fatties and piss you off with Root Maze and Null Rod, but they can't force Null Rod through like Fish can, and nor can they remove your welders easily.  So, I often find myself stabilizing at a few life vs. Oshawa and then winning.  And Fish...I hate Fish.  It totally destroys Workshop Slaver and is definitely the worst match-up.  You think that a Chalice for 2 will stop them?  Well, it might...if you can 1).  Draw it 2).  Find the mana to cast it and 3).  Resolve it.  All of these are sketchy propositions at best and thus Fish will usually crush you.  This is even before they bring in all of their fun hate from the board to make you even sadder.  

I believe the only way to beat fish is the 7 man plan, which I am a big proponent of.  In fact, I switch to the 7 Man Plan so often that I decided to create room for another fatty main deck and 4 in the board (for an 8 man plan as originally prescribed).  It allows you to win a lot of matches post-SB.  I'm still not sure about which fatties to put in the MD and SB, and I might still cut one of the MD fatties to put in the Chain of Vapor, which seems like really good tech to me.  I currently have a (S)Memnarch, Trike and 2 Pentavus maindeck, plus an ever-changing repertoire of fatties in the board, including trike #2, duplicant (mmm Tog and Dreadnaught), Sundering Titan (the fattest of the fat) and Platinum angel (yes, it's a Timmy card but it can allow you to win games you should not have).

On the issue of Timetwister--yes, it may be the retarded stepchild of the Power 9, but it still IS part of the Power 9.  If you are already infini-slaving, it is irrelevant WHAT you draw, for the most part, and you have already won.  But the Twister is generally the best Draw-7 (well, it is certainly one of the 3 best) and you often need it to get to the point of infini-slavery.  Also, with the amount of raw card-draw this deck provides, especially after using Memory Jar more than once, you can come close to being decked, which the good ol' twister can prevent.  Wouldn't it be sad to rip through 95% of your deck, get down the slaver lock, but be unable to win by the time you get decked?  I have certainly come close before only to be saved by the Twister.  Twister is not Time Walk.  Walk can be cut from decks running Chalice.  Twister should only be cut from this type of deck if you do not run blue.  If you cut the twister, then cut Wheel of Fortune.  But then you will lose your explosiveness and that is what allows the deck to be good.  Or more importantly--remind me again what you would cut the timetwister for?  And how would that improve the deck?

As I said at the beginning, I like Woskhop Slaver better than Drain Slaver, and ironically, the reason is consistency.  While Drain Slaver may be less susceptible to hate, etc., is it also less likely to be able to Slave as early or as often.  I found that the drastically reduced artifact count makes it harder to recur your slavers, to the point where I have had 2 welders on the table, a slaver in the 'yard, and no artifacts to sac.  I like the idea of running 2 pentavus to increase your likelihood of infinite slavery, but without all of the other fun toys, it seems to me like you run out of artifacts mighty quick.  The lack of Draw-7's can also lead to this problem because you are less likely to draw a bunch of artifacts to weld.  Obviously Drain Slaver has put up the numbers--I have no doubt that it is a good deck, and possibly (probably) even better than Workshop Slaver.  Maybe my luck with it just sucks.  Okay that's about enough ranting for the time being.  I hope I didn't piss too many people off or demonstrate an extreme lack of understanding on this deck...

[Vegeta2711]

@The guy above me.

Paragraph breaks. Use them please.

Fixed. -Jacob

[The Hamburgler]

Thug:
Demonic Tutor never really has to be cast turn one or two, and if it is necessary I have six black mana sources to ensure it. I have been doing a lot of testing with the manabase, and will give you a glance in a couple of days (to make sure I don't have any mana flaws).

Sundering Titan is a bomb. It will just win the game, you will be surprised, as I was with Chain of Vapor, how consistently you win after resolution.

@ Covetous:
Your knowledge of the deck was provincial, but not so withstanding. It doesn't play like a control because it can rid threats, it plays like a control Hulk based deck, draw a lot of cards, then go broken and win all the sudden. Chalice of the Void for two isn't so hard to resolve against Fish, they only have four counters that will clear it (you should see a Daze coming). Sundering Titan is amazing here, as Fish runs few U/R sources, so chomping down on them is very effective. Oh, and right, it's a 7/10. All you need to do is dump a threat. Chalice of the Void for two has been proven to stop Fish in it's tracks, it may be hard, but it will  win you the game when resolved. I like the "bait" method, play silly things like Pentavus and things, then dump a Chalice of the Void for two and a Goblin Welder. The best way to beat control is to bait, lure and then besiege.

EDIT: Vegeta got at it first

Tog Matchup
I am getting annoyed with some of this (no offense). The best way to play the deck is just to get a random Mindslaver activation, then Deep Analysis targeting you, Intuition for two good things and a land, and (most favorably) pitch and remove their whole hand with Psychatog. Shamans aren't a problem, as after you Slaver them you can find an answer (see: Fire/Ice) and, with a Goblin Welder out counters are redundant.

Timetwister
I am still iffy on this, but for now it is out. My reasoning is the following:

1) In your example, you said Timetwister with an infinite slaver lock. I have learned through experience that there is NO NEED (as Kerz would say it). If you have a infinite Slaver lock, you have already won.

2) It fills my opponent's hand full of answers. If this is a control biased deck then a Timetwister would entirely contradict the decks sole base of control. You want to be ahead of your opponent, not equal.

3) It has no synergy with Goblin Welder, Yawgmoth's Will and Mindslaver. I hate cards that don't fit in the deck, and otherwise have no synergy.

Currently Testing:
+1 Library of Alexandria

-1 Chain of Vapor

- The Hamburgler

[nataz]

Okay, I realize that you have been testing the matchups quite a bit, but I am astounded by how you brush of G/red by repeatedly saying chalice for two. How in the world are you going to bait with a pentavs while holding a chalice for two early enough against fish where a chalice for two actually matters?

I've said it before, and I will say it again, if you manage to get 12 mana open (7 for pentavs, 1 for welder, 4 for chalice) against fish you are already wining. Screw chalice and just dump large creatures.

The point is G/red's entire game plan is to make sure a situation like that never happens, and it succeeds more often then not. The problem arises when fish goes turn one force, turn two null rod with daze back-up, turn three waste your shop after playing a grim.
   
If you do resolve a chalice against fish for two, that is a huge plus, but now you still have to worry about main-deck mox monkeys/heretics.

Really, the best way to beat fish is not chalice, or even attacking their mana-base, but just sheer huge fat. Don’t bother stocking up on threats in hand because if you do null rod and wasteland is going to make that plan completely moot.

On timetwister:
I have never tested with out it, but this is why. Its a draw 7, and thats good because in most match ups it can be a huge threat. turn two, I am almost always doing one of three things. 1 Welding somthing stupid into play, 2. droping a lotus, or 3 playing a draw 7 to refill my hopefuly empty hand.

Yes, it is true that the twister can give your opponent answers, but all of the draw 7's do that. the point of running them in any deck is to beak that equality in the card. Just as fish uses man lands to get around standstill, slaver (and many other decks) break the draw 7's by empting their hand and then casting it. Therefore when done on turn two-3, or even after an explosive turn one it is NOT equal. It is very much card advantage.

Not to mention the fact that twister can be used as an offensive weapon against Dragon, Rector, Madness and tog.

And as for not having synergy with welder and mindslaver, I would say that it does have synergy with explosive hands and fast starts (meaning often having a small hand on turns 2-3).

on chain of vapor:
I love that card, and am desperatly seeking a way to fit it into my build.

On tog and shaman:
their counters suck unless they nail your welder. This is of course except when they get out an early monkey. Its a lot harder to weld things into play when all your cheap artifacts are in the gaveyard. which then of course slows you down when trying to activate and cast a mindslaver. Still, overall I would certainly say that the match up is fav for slaver.

[The Hamburgler]

Nataz:
Thank you for the recognition of play testing. Gay red is not at all a "shrug" match. It has to be played without error, and when it is played with no fault, then you will win. It has a lot of threats (workshop Slaver) Chalice of the Void and Timmy creatures. It isn't very hard to out-draw and play too many threats as they have counters. I take this match up seriously, but with such bombs like Yawgmoth's Will, Sundering Titan and Mindslaver, you can't go wrong when played correctly. My techy sideboard takes care of Null Rod easily, and I only use four cards, as opposed to the "Seven Man Plan". A smart Fish player would hit the Workshops instead of the U/R mana sources, no matter what anyone says. This takes care of the threats and an early Chalice of the Void. Game two and three this can change, it depends on how erratic the build is. I will be playing in a tournament tomorrow, and will write something brief about how each card fulfilled or didn't fill it's role, when and why. Timetwister will be a highlight.
-The Hamburgler

[Thug]

Thug:
Demonic Tutor never really has to be cast turn one or two, and if it is necessary I have six black mana sources to ensure it. I have been doing a lot of testing with the manabase, and will give you a glance in a couple of days (to make sure I don't have any mana flaws).

It sometimes has to be casted turn one or turn two, not being able to cast it reduces the power of the card, and not being able to cast it because you lack black mana is a flaw in the deck. If you play with this card you IMO want to be able to play it as soon as you get to two mana. I'm not saying you can't since I didn't test with your mana-base, but if you can't provide that black mana early on wouldn't it be worth fixing the manabase for?

I want to start out by saying that I'm personally a huge fan of Workshop Slaver. I disagree with the name "Combo Slaver" because the deck IS a control deck...Your game plan is to have control over the permanents in play and the spells that resolve.

There are different versions of the deck and thus different approaches. The deck is a hybrid off aggro, control and combo. And often it depends a lot on your starting hand which way the deck will go. Myself however I like the combo route more than the other and this can be found in my cardchoices (more draw-sevens, more fast mana, no LoA). This is why I like to call it Combo-Slaver since I look as the deck as mostly combo. And calling in control-slaver confuses a lot of people since there is a Slaver version with Drains that plays control far more than this deck does.

You could call it Workshop-Slaver but I found Shop becoming a less and less relevant part of the deck, and naming the deck after a card that's not the backbone of the deck is weird IMO.

The lack of Draw-7's can also lead to this problem because you are less likely to draw a bunch of artifacts to weld. Obviously Drain Slaver has put up the numbers--I have no doubt that it is a good deck, and possibly (probably) even better than Workshop Slaver.

However Drain Slaver is also played a lot more, so the numbers can't really be the grade of how good the deck really is. I think people need just a little more time to adjust to Drain Slaver before the deck become's just one of many choices.

On Timetwister

I think Nataz covered the Timetwister really good, you should be having card/mana advantage by the time you cast it, not to mention that you should draw 7 more explosive card than your opponent should.

on chain of vapor:
I love that card, and am desperatly seeking a way to fit it into my build.

Glad to see that, I think this defenitly deserves a spot maindeck.

My techy sideboard takes care of Null Rod easily, and I only use four cards, as opposed to the "Seven Man Plan".

I'f you're reffering to some sort of artifact destruction I doubt how good this sideboard plan is, boarding in cards just to take care of 4 cards in your opponent's deck is not the way to go. I rather stick to the chain and the FoW's to take care of Null Rod and otherwise dropa  fattie to win.

If you were not reffering to Artifact Destruction ignore this comment and share your wisdom with us  

I will be playing in a tournament tomorrow, and will write something brief about how each card fulfilled or didn't fill it's role, when and why. Timetwister will be a highlight.

Does this mean you will be playing with the Tiwster? Since that way you can value the card the best.

Koen

[The Hamburgler]

I was not referring to artifact destruction for a singular purpose. Sorry, but this will all come out when my primer hits, and when I've settled on a list. I just want people to read it for a point, and so it won't be like I am just re-writing information. My match up analysis will be much more intense, and select matches will have play-by-play testing going on.

Demonic Tutor and the mana base
I think I will try and settle this now, but will have some information for everyone tonight. I don't think changing the mana base is so important, especially since it is only one card, and only part of the time. The mana base can change due to Wastelands or Stifle abundances in some environments, but besides that I think the manabase is pretty solid. The only case I would like to try to cast Demonic Tutor early is when I am playing an opponent with Fish or any Null Rod aggro-control deck. I want to dump a Chalice of the Void for two as fast as I can, and Demonic Tutor may become a dead card. Still, the odds are unlikely. If this event infers in tonights results, I will consider a revamp of my mana base.

Timetwister
Yes, I will be using it today along with Library and I am indecisive about Chain of Vapor. I like it a lot, I just don't like janky looking cards :lol: .

My sideboard is under HEAVY construction, and it will be released shortly.
-The Hamburgler

[The Atog Lord]

Thug,

I agree with you when you say this:

naming the deck after a card that's not the backbone of the deck is weird IMO.

Mana Drain is not at all the "backbone" of Control Slaver. Thus, Control Slaver should not be called "drain slaver."

[Covetous]

I apologize for my lack of forum etiquette re paragraphs.  I'm also sorry that my knowledge of type 1 (or at least Slaver decks) is "provincial."  I was just trying to share my experience with the deck.  Anyway when I referred to both basic slaver builds as control decks I didn't mean to say that they were ONLY control decks.  Sure, the workshop-based builds play more like Hulk or some other control/combo deck, but the point I was trying to make is that the name "Control Slaver" can be misleading because both decks are to some extent control decks, in much the same way that Hulk can play as a control deck in certain match-ups.  I certainly understand your dislike of the term "Drain Slaver."  The reason I favor the name is this:

In my mind, the major difference between the two decks, resulting in many other relevant card choices and different play style, is the inclusion of Mana Drain in one deck and Workshop in the other.  The reason I favor one set of names over the other is that the primary difference in the decklists is that one has MD and one has MW--sure, it's not all that each deck is about, but it is a simple way for people to distinguish the decks.  Feel free to disagree--I know you do.  But my point is that between the decks there are other differences in card choice, yet none is as central as the MD/MW distinction.  You could call one deck "Lotus Slaver" and the other "Wish Slaver" or something else, but that would simply be less accurate at describing the primary distinction between them.  That's enough out of me on that topic.

Anyway I noticed that no one commented on my experience that when playing Control/Drain Slaver, I find myself with a dearth of artifacts to weld.  Am I alone in that or does anyone else find the same problem as well?  And if I'm not the only one, is there an effective way to lessen the effects of such a problem?

Thanks.  Sorry for the giant paragraphs.

[jazzykat]

RE: the big o matchup

A properly metagamed big 0 will give drain/control (the one with mana drains) slaver fits. As a drain slaver player you either need multiple FTK's in the board. Hibernation, and a mass removal spell, firestorm or starstorm(suggested by someone else)

THey really only have null rod pre sideboard, and sometimes md oxidizes. Anything short of an infinite slaver lock is usually pretty useless as you can't really break much.

After boarding comes in such nasties as ground seal, good not only vs. welder.dec but dargon, or perhaps crypt(common tog, and dargon hate)


Workshop slaver has a better chance due to the savage beating provided by the man plan.

[Thug]

Mana Drain is not at all the "backbone" of Control Slaver. Thus, Control Slaver should not be called "drain slaver."

Right on, why can't we all be nice and settle with two names right here, right now. Let's just call the workshop version (damn, I did it again, I mentioned Workshop) Slavery and the mana drain version Control Slaver to stop all of this noncense.

But then again, I guess only half the people will agree with those names and we will still have the same problem.

I tried the Titan a little, but I hasn't convinced me yet, but maybe thats because it tends to show up when I'm already winning and then I rather steal their permanents than destroy them  

Had one crazy first turn against a Tog deck though, I went demonic, walk, twister first turn, and second turn I went gilded, demonic, walk. Thirt turn I tinkered out a Slaver and dropped a welder. Oh and I started, so he didn't have a single permanents on table. After I ancestralled myself with his ancestrall I didn't have much trouble going infinitive. I know this only happens once in 100 times, but because of these kind of start I like the deck so much. (I demonic for Time Walk twice btw, something I often tend to do with this deck, since it often gives you a nice mana boost and it makes welder/will a lot better.

Koen

[The Atog Lord]

Covetous,

the point I was trying to make is that the name "Control Slaver" can be misleading because both decks are to some extent control decks

Misleading? Do you honestly believe that there is a single person who will read the name "Control Slaver" and be confused about which build of Slaver is being mentioned?

Now onto something worthwhile....

I find myself with a dearth of artifacts to weld

I have found 14 artifacts in Control Slaver to be both necessary and sufficient. However, should more be needed, the cleanest way to add a few more might be to replace an Island or two with artifact land. I have considered trying to replace the Fire/Ices with Pyrite Spellbombs, but I have not tested this at all (just an idea).

[Bahza]

Pyrite Spellbomb may be worth testing over Fire/ice, but I am relucant to cut pitchable cards for Force of Will. Not that I have a problem having a card to pitch, but I would rather pitch a fire/ice over a Thirst or Wish if a threat comes down early. Also, in the fish match up I like to trade 2 for 1.

I also would be reluctant as it doesn't help against Null Rod or Matrix, although I do admit it could lead to some good welder tricks early game.

[glenchuy]

has anybody else done some tweaking on the manabase for *control-slaver*?

i played with this mana base in my tourney earlier, and the mountain saved my ass a lot of time from wastelands.

9-solomoxen, crypt, vault
1-academy
4-volcanic island
2-underground sea
3-island
1-mountain
2-flooded strand
1-polluted delta
2-bloodstained mire

[Bulls on Parade]

Although I don't claim to have any knowledge concering this archetype whatsoever, I like this manabase:

9-solomoxen, crypt, vault
1-academy
4-volcanic island
2-underground sea
3-island
1-mountain
2-flooded strand
1-polluted delta
2-bloodstained mire

...Because it effectively has 12 red mana sources without being necessarily more susceptible to nonbasic land hate. In the few games I've played and dozens I've been on the other side of, it seems like cutting off red mana was one of the easiest options presented to try to cripple my opponent's resources.
Since the conventional Mana Drain-based Slaver decks only have 10 red mana sources (correct me if I'm wrong, but I assumed 1 Lotus, 1 Ruby, 4 Volcanic, 4 Polluted Delta is the norm now.. I did check on this very thread but it seems to be something that fluctuates because the "ideal" build is still being searched for) running one basic Mountain will, at the very least, pressure your opponent into making a possible play mistake such as saving a Strip Mine for a basic land, possibly giving you the turn(s) you need to set up.