Control Slaver

[Frankie]

hi y'all!
i recently have been testing with control slaver, both U/R/b and U/R w/4strips and found it a little too inconsistent since i have been getting either mana screw in both version or mana flood in the U/R version.
In this respect i decided to change something to the main deck.
My testing is based on few selected archetipes
Hulk smash: favorable pre-board ,split post board
Rector tendril: 30/70 pre, 45/55 post

so i for this reason, i thus decided to change the main deck and Sb to this, considering also that here in italy Hulk and artifact prison are costant presences and there is some aggro:

Mana:
8 SoLoCrmoxen
1 mana vault
1 Mountain
1 bloodstained mire
4 Delta
5 Islands
4 Volcanic Islands
3 Ancient Tomb*testing
Creatures:
4 Welders
1 Shaman
1 Pentavus
1 Plat Angel
Spells:
2 Cunning Wish
1 Time Wal
1 Ancestral Recall
4 FOW
4 Mana Drain
2 Mindslaver
1 Tinker
1Memory Jar
4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Future Sight
1 Fact or Fiction
SB:
3 REB
2 BEB
2 Fire/Ice
1 Echoing Truth
2 Rack and Ruin
3Trinisphere/Chalice of the Void*still undecided
2 Blood Moon

Sme of the not streamline card choices:Future Sight,FOF,Ancient Tomb all deserve testing because the first 2 spell doom for opponert unless i'm very unlucky.
Ancient tombs speed me up consistently since plenty of times i found myself with 4 or 5 lands and slavers or fatties in hand not being able to be cast.

so i would like some feedback from all those people who are a little open minded and would like to help me out!
Thx in advance.

[Daniel_112]

1 bloodstained mire
4 Delta

5 Islands
4 Volcanic Islands

You run only 14 blue lands, I think you really want to have UU turn 2, so I prefer to run 15. Cut a mountain or a ancient tomb. You should play shivan reef when you see loads of stifles and wastelands instead of fetchland.

Future sight is a real bomb, you only need to be carefull against decks that bring in REB's, make sure you have got counter back up, and your very likely to win that game, I really love him.

Were is your Chain of vapor? It's a bomb! A one sided armageddon when you slaver your opponent, it can bounce null rods, its very very usefull! Run at least 1 side, and maybe one main.

[The Atog Lord]

True, Control Slaver is not the most consistent deck in the format. However, if built properly, consistency should not be too great a concern. I’m not convinced that cutting the number of blue sources in the deck, cutting the number of cantrips in the deck, and then adding Future Sight will do very much to improve consistency. If consistency has been an issue, you may wish to consider maindecking Fire/Ice and more blue sources.

Also, a brief word on running black in the deck. I know that I have said this before, but Yawgmoth’s Will is an integral part of Control Slaver. I can see removing Demonic Tutor, if you were so inclined. Yawgmoth’s Will, however, is a card which single-handedly ends the game when resolved in the midgame or beyond. Even if it does nothing more than allowing you to cast a Welder and a Time Walk, it has justified itself. The other thing to note is that your version of the deck in particular could easily splash black because you run five fetchlands which would find an Underground Sea.

Here is my current build of Control Slaver. If I expected Control Slaver itself to be a commonly played deck in the metagame, I would consider one maindeck Gorilla Shaman. Perhaps a maindeck Fact or Fiction could be justified, but for now it is in my sideboard. If I had more room in the sideboard, I would add two Blood Moons; right now, I have removed them to make room for Flametongue Kavu, which is excellent in otherwise difficult aggro matchups.

// Creatures
        1 Platinum Angel
        1 Pentavus
        4 Goblin Welder
// Counter
        4 Mana Drain
        4 Force of Will
// Drawing
        4 Thirst for Knowledge
        4 Brainstorm
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Memory Jar
        2 Fire/Ice
// Other
        2 Mindslaver
        1 Tinker
        1 Time Walk
        2 Cunning Wish
// Black
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        1 Demonic Tutor
// Mana
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Black Lotus
// Land
        1 Library of Alexandria
        2 Underground Sea
        4 Flooded Strand
        4 Volcanic Island
        6 Island
// Sideboard
SB:  1 Shattering Pulse
SB:  1 Echoing Truth
SB:  1 Fact or Fiction
SB:  2 Rack and Ruin
SB:  2 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  3 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  2 Gorilla Shaman
SB:  3 Flametongue Kavu

I hope this helps. Good luck.

[Maze]

Control-Slaver is a great deck in a specific metagame.

It's designed to win against the Big deck ( Tog, Landstill, RectorTrix, Draw7, etc. )

It's not verry efficient against aggro ( even With FtK and Fire/Ice ).

Like Atog Lord said you Should splash Black.

Blood Moon will oftenly save you, use it in SB.

[Frankie]

ok, so i will cut a mountain for a fetchland and try to fit an undeground sea or 2 and yawg's will but still that version of the deck , the one Atog Lord suggests, is the one i have been having problems with: not draw enough cards,mana flood,or getting stuck with slavers pentavus angel and not having mana to cast them.

[Wollblad]

There is a sertain risk that you'll get stuck with costly artifacts in you hand and just cannot find a Thirst. That, and that Tinker is the most broken card in this deck, is the reason for running Mystical Tutor. You can much well cut one Fire/Ice for Mystical. One Fire/Ice and two Cunning Wish is enough to handling oppoisng Welders, Gorilla Shamans and Withered Wretched. As a matter of fact, you don't really need that last Fire/Ice either. If you expect a lot of mirror matchups, you might be better of with a Gorilla Shaman there.

I don't understand why people persist to play Memory Jar. It draws you too few cards in relation to how much resources you need to spend to get it into play. Sure it draws you a lot of cards, but of those, perhaps only one or is non-mana, non-counters, non-card drawing. In my oppinion, FoF is a better choice.

@Maze
I don't know how you play the deck or what the Rector builds you play against look like, but a properly built Rector Trix will just wreak havoc on Control Slaver unless you have lot of Chalices and Tormod's Crypts in your sidebaord. You are though correct that aggro is a hard matchup. That's another argument that supports the inclusion of Mystical  Tutor. The best thing you can do against most aggro decks is to find Tinker, fetch Platinum Angel and just concentrate on defending it.

[Meddling Mike]

I know that I have said this before, but Yawgmoth’s Will is an integral part of Control Slaver.

I couldn't agree more, not running Yawg will would be a horrendous mistake, if will is broken in most type I decks, in control slaver it's just that much better.

Because you can control opponents turns, you can often cast will assured that no counter war will ensue. Also, many times when I have a "soft" slaver lock and I'm running out of artifacts, after I've sent my last one to the yard to slaver my opponent, the next turn I can cast will and bring it all back, recast the powerful spells in my graveyard (Ancestral, Demonic, Time Walk) and once I proceed to my timewalk turn it's often a hard lock.

The strength of Demonic Tutor in this deck should also not be underestimated, in some ways control slaver is a combo deck, using the amazing synergy of cards like Pentavus, Goblin Welder, Thirst for Knowledge and Mindslaver. So many times Demonic Tutor will get the last peice of the puzzle needed to set up an eternal slaver lock and of course it's always good to find other good cards.

I've also found that this deck quite comfortably supports a black splash, by changing to ancient tombs it kind of seems like you're just making a deck that falls somewhere between workshop slaver and Control Slaver.

Future Sight is of course an excellent card, however, the list is already pretty tight, I couldn't see myself cutting anything to include it.

I don't understand why people persist to play Memory Jar. It draws you too few cards in relation to how much resources you need to spend to get it into play. Sure it draws you a lot of cards, but of those, perhaps only one or is non-mana, non-counters, non-card drawing. In my oppinion, FoF is a better choice.

I whole-heartedly disagree with you on the matter of how powerful memory jar is. This deck runs such a large number of low cc or 0 cc spells that Memory Jar resolving and activating can turn the whole game around.

It usually covers your land drop for the turn, gets you the welder you may have otherwise been lacking, has a brainstorm to store some goodies for later, fat artifacts to drop into the yard at EOT, there are very few hands coming out of a memory jar with control slaver that I could see myself being entirely unable to work with.

The ability to recur it multiple times and keep whichever extra hand appeals to me is also a very nice bonus. It can even be used to negate a control players card drawing in certain situations if necessary. For example, I have seen memory jar welded into play and popped in response to an opponent casting AK for 4, causing the player to draw more cards than could reasonably be played with the mana available on the table, fully negating what would otherwise be devastating card advantage.

[Gabethebabe]

Control-Slaver is a great deck in a specific metagame.

It's designed to win against the Big deck ( Tog, Landstill, RectorTrix, Draw7, etc. )

It's not verry efficient against aggro ( even With FtK and Fire/Ice ).

Like Atog Lord said you Should splash Black.

Blood Moon will oftenly save you, use it in SB.

I bet that you never played a Control Slaver match vs Landstill or combo in your life. These are HARD matchups for Control Slaver. Please don´t make comments without any form of fundaments.

[Rico Suave]

Haha, how ironic.  

Are you going to say I don't know the fundamentals too because I know Control Slaver has a very good game against Landstill?  I don't know why you'd think Landstill is difficult for Control Slaver.

[Thug]

Maze wrote:
Control-Slaver is a great deck in a specific metagame.

It's designed to win against the Big deck ( Tog, Landstill, RectorTrix, Draw7, etc. )

It's not verry efficient against aggro ( even With FtK and Fire/Ice ).

I bet that you never played a Control Slaver match vs Landstill or combo in your life. These are HARD matchups for Control Slaver. Please don´t make comments without any form of fundaments.

Not only Landstill it harder than he makes it look, also Tog isn't all that easy for Control-Slaver, and I would call Draw7 a nightmare for the deck.

A question to all control-slaver players, has merchant scroll ever be tested? when testing with the deck I always liked the diversity of the card, since it can fetch ancestral, thirst but also fire/ice. Mystical also gets all those card, but is card-disadvantage and makes you even more vulnerable to chalice for 1.

Koen

[jazzykat]

I too have had trouble vs. UR landstill.

they have from 4-7 ways to kill your welders (bolts, and fire/ices)
they have more counters than you
they have excellent artifact destruction from the board (rack and ruin)
sometimes even crypts in the board
oh, and they play disk which wrecks all your perms
the only way I beat landstill was to screw them over with blood moon(but if they side in BEB's that doesn't even work) by baiting a counter over yawgmoth's will or something early.

[Rico Suave]

Merchant Scroll is bad.

Really, I don't get why Tog and/or Landstill are difficult.  The deck should do great against them.  What is going wrong for you guys?  What I mean to say is Thirst is better than Standstill and you have Brainstorms where they don't so you out-draw them fairly easily.  On top of that, having Welder is a lot better than having an answer to Welder, so that puts Control Slaver in the advantage.  Next we have the fact that Control Slaver has black and that means Yawgmoth's Will.  

Really, you shouldn't have problems.  You can practically out-control them, and you're not even the control deck here.

[Thug]

Merchant Scroll is bad.

Why do you even care to answer if this is all you're going to say? This helps no one, all it really does it drive me mad. A statement like this immediatly takes away the credibility of the rest of your post IMO, but hey, that's your problem

I have not tried Slaver versus Landstill so I cannot say much about that other than on paper landstill has the right tools to battle Slaver. Tog however I have played against multiple Slavers including tournament play and I have never understood all the excitement about Slaver being so fantastic against Tog. Tog can beat control/drain-slaver, and a good prepared tog build should beat control/drain-slaver. This has also been shown by the recent Eindhoven tourney, where Tog took first place in a field full of slaver.

Koen

[Vegeta2711]

Fine, I'll expand upon Rico's point.

It costs 2 mana, fetches like a whole 2 useful cards in the deck and is sorcery speed. The deck is already pretty tight and doesn't need a slow -limited- tutor.

Meanwhile I don't really know the specfics of control slaver vs. tog or whatever, I'll just wait for Rich to come and give an anwser.

[kirdape3]

Control Slaver's really annoying for Tog.  Tog is matched with equal draw power, superior recursion (Welder really is annoying for Psychatog, you all know that), and a win condition taken from their own deck.  If Tog isn't running Shaman maindeck for some reason, they're liable to not be able to keep up.  Even if they are, they need it early before the fast artifact mana gives Slaver a huge boost and allows their engine to come online faster.

Landstill can negate your Welders pretty well, and Disk is annoying, but for some reason I don't fear a deck that actually can't kill you before you reload with better threats and can break the Standstill at their leisure.

[Rico Suave]

Why do you even care to answer if this is all you're going to say? This helps no one, all it really does it drive me mad. A statement like this immediatly takes away the credibility of the rest of your post IMO, but hey, that's your problem

You are going to talk about my post lacking credibility when your statement about Control Slaver struggling against Landstill is backed up with this:

I have not tried Slaver versus Landstill so I cannot say much about that other than on paper landstill has the right tools to battle Slaver.  

?

I don't get it.  

The reason I didn't explain why Merchant Scroll is bad is because I figured no competitive deck has used it for months now.  

Nevertheless, the reasons are in Vegeta's post, although I'd like to add that the deck would rather fit in things like FoF, the full compliment of Brainstorms, and even additional redundancy in extra Fire/Ice before adding Merchant Scroll.

[The Atog Lord]

I'll just wait for Rich to come and give an anwser.

Here we go

Alright, I'll be the first to admit that a fast combo deck can be difficult for Control Slaver. With less maindeck disruption than Hulk and a slower combo than most combo decks, Control Slaver is often at a disadvantage. While a quick Platinum Angel or Mindslaver can certainly secure a win, this matchup is not easy. If any particular combo deck is popular in your area, I recommend sideboarding appropriate hate.

The vast majority of the time, Control Slaver has quite a favorable matchup against Hulk. And while I believe that a Hulk deck can be tuned to make the matchup somewhat closer to even in the first game, things become even more favorable for Control Slaver after boarding.

In this matchup, a single Mindslaver resolution often results in the game ending. Further, while Hulk enjoys the AK engine, Control Slaver can match that card drawing with Thirst for Knowledge. Moreover, while Hulk has only its Psychatogs for threats, Control Slaver has for threats not only its expensive artifacts but also its inexpensive Welders, which oftentimes can be resolved despite Hulk's strong counter base.

One of Hulk's most powerful weapons in this matchup is Duress, which can turn a good Control Slaver hand bad. However, with its higher threat concentration and very strong draw engine, Control Slaver is generally in a good position. If this matchup is something that you fear, you may wish to bring Fact or Fiction into the main deck.

Now, as for Landstill. Perhaps I fail to grasp the "fundamentals" of Control Slaver, but in my experience, the matchup against Landstill is rather favorable. Yes, Landstill can annoy you with counter magic, and it can destroy your Goblins.

However, this matchup comes down to your superior card drawing. What typically happens in this matchup is that the Landstill player plays Standstill with perhaps three or four power on the table. You and your opponent spend a while playing land and passing the turn. Then, when you feel that it is to your advantage, break Standstill during your opponent's end step with something like a Fire/Ice or Brainstorm. The card advantage from the Standstill is negated by the subsequent discard step. At this point, because you have spent so long building up your hand, you are often able to become a combo deck during your next turn, and do some very broken things, often involving taking your opponent's next turn.

Those are my opinions on the combo, Hulk, and Landstill matchups. Control Slaver has no auto-win matchups, nor any real auto-lose matchups. Rather, it has many many skill-intensive matchups. That having been said, I'm not unhappy to sit across from a Landstill or Hulk player when I'm playing Control Slaver.

Hope this helps.

[Meddling Mike]

The good thing about control slaver is that it pretty much can beat anything with the right draw, but sometimes, you just get the shaft and you can lose to anything. Characteristics of a bad draw involve multiple Thirst for Knowledge that just end up card nuetral, a dearth of welders or high cc artifacts with no thirst for knowlege.

Tog based decks are particularly susceptible to Slaver particularly Hulk. Hulk just has so many cards that help slaver out, Deep Analysis targets, as does Ancestral, Dr teeth himself can allow the slavered opponent to make some terrible decisions with regards to discarding and removing cards yet forgetting to attack.

Landstill has some similar weaknesses, playing standstill and casting pointless spells to break it. However, I'd say fish decks are actually a much weaker matchup against control slaver, particularly the U/R version. I believe Pern said of his deck something along the lines of, "one half of my deck kills the other half and then itself". Think about it nearly any fish creature you can think of can kill itself and others, spiketail hatchling, Suq'ata firewalker, voidmage prodigy, in pern's case razorfin hunter.

[Thug]

It costs 2 mana, fetches like a whole 2 useful cards in the deck and is sorcery speed. The deck is already pretty tight and doesn't need a slow -limited- tutor.

It fetches 2 very important card aside from ancestral, thirst and drain. And it's a perfect first turn play if combined with a mox.

The reason I didn't explain why Merchant Scroll is bad is because I figured no competitive deck has used it for months now.

Multiple people have used this in Tog, and Carl even tried it in Workshop Slaver so this isn't totally truth, but yes most people think it' too slow for the current metagame.
I tried it and liked it in control-slaver, but I did not say it had too be included, all I asked was if it was ever tested and why it didn't make the cut.

You are going to talk about my post lacking credibility when your statement about Control Slaver struggling against Landstill is backed up with this:

I must admit that I was mainly leaning on other people's observations about this matchup, but I have seen slaver-struggle against landstill.
But my main point was that control-slaver isn't all that hot against Tog and Draw7/Dragon.

Control Slaver's really annoying for Tog. Tog is matched with equal draw power, superior recursion (Welder really is annoying for Psychatog, you all know that), and a win condition taken from their own deck. If Tog isn't running Shaman maindeck for some reason, they're liable to not be able to keep up. Even if they are, they need it early before the fast artifact mana gives Slaver a huge boost and allows their engine to come online faster.

Hulk has more drawpower and more disruoption/denial to force it through. In terms of acceleration slaver has a very slight edge, but It also relies on a slightly more expensive draw-engine.

The vast majority of the time, Control Slaver has quite a favorable matchup against Hulk. And while I believe that a Hulk deck can be tuned to make the matchup somewhat closer to even in the first game, things become even more favorable for Control Slaver after boarding.

Huh?, I would say the matchup gets better for Tog since it can bring in all the tools to handle your main engine (welder) in BEB and Shaman. And once Tog can stop the Welder Recursion it has time enough to outdraw Slaver before Slaver gets too hardcast any slavers/fatties.

Koen

[Rico Suave]

It fetches 2 very important card aside from ancestral, thirst and drain. And it's a perfect first turn play if combined with a mox.

It's not a bad first turn play, but anything you would cut for Merchant Scroll is a better first turn play.  After the first turn, Merchant Scroll is really just too slow.

Multiple people have used this in Tog, and Carl even tried it in Workshop Slaver so this isn't totally truth, but yes most people think it' too slow for the current metagame.
I tried it and liked it in control-slaver, but I did not say it had too be included, all I asked was if it was ever tested and why it didn't make the cut.

Carl also cut it immediately after the tournament, if I recall correctly.

I must admit that I was mainly leaning on other people's observations about this matchup, but I have seen slaver-struggle against landstill.  

To avoid any potential hassle, I'm not going any further into this.  For future reference, if you or anybody else has issues with my posts lacking "credibility" then try to PM me first.  It's better that way.

Hulk has more drawpower and more disruoption/denial to force it through. In terms of acceleration slaver has a very slight edge, but It also relies on a slightly more expensive draw-engine.

I'm not sure how Control Slaver's engine is more expensive.  If anything, it's a turn faster in most cases since Thirst acts now while Intuition just sets up your spell next turn.  

While Tog has more draw and more disruption, Control Slaver has more threats.  It is the very nature of those threats which make Control Slaver have such a good game against Tog, because a single resolved threat can make up for losing in the card draw department.  Take Welder for instance.  If that resolves Tog's gameplan goes out the window until it can answer the little dude, and in that time Tog is spending answering the Welder it gives the Control Slaver a window of opportunity to do other things - like outdraw the Tog player.

Huh?, I would say the matchup gets better for Tog since it can bring in all the tools to handle your main engine (welder) in BEB and Shaman. And once Tog can stop the Welder Recursion it has time enough to outdraw Slaver before Slaver gets too hardcast any slavers/fatties.

If Tog wants to SB in Shamans, BEB's, REB's, or whatever, then it's going to have to cut important spells.  How much can you cut before you dilute the deck?  In other words, what I'm saying is you either don't get all those SB cards, or you lose because your deck has no focus anymore.

Don't forget Control Slaver gets REB, which is a "total bomb" against Tog.

[The Atog Lord]

I have seen slaver-struggle against landstill.

Sure, no one is saying that Control Slaver will win every game against Landstill. Not at all. If you watch enough games, you will certainly see Control Slaver lose a few.

However, it remains my belief that Control Slaver will win more than it loses in this matchup. I hate to say it, but, remember to factor playskill into your observations of the matchups.

As for Merchant Scroll, I'd much rather fit a Fact or Fiction into the maindeck than this card. If I wanted more tutoring power, I'd try Vampiric Tutor over this, because it gets such cards as Yawgmoth's Will, Tinker, and Goblin Welder.

One final note. Yes, Hulk has more disruption than Control Slaver. But remember that Control Slaver has more must-counter threats than Hulk.

[Meddling Mike]

My only time playing vs. Landstill I ended up losing 0-2, I don't consider myself a poor control slaver player, certainly not the best, but not poor. My draw was sub-optimal, I had to pop a standstill earlier than I would have liked as lethal damage would soon have been coming my way. He also played around my fire/ice's only attacking with one conclave at a time robbing me of any two for one advantage. I didn't make any blatant play mistakes, perhaps I made a few that I simply didn't realize. As a result from my limited experience, I found that landstill isn't extremely weak vs. control slaver, but I default to those whom have played the matchup more than I.

[xzero]

I found that landstill isn't extremely weak vs. control slaver, but I default to those whom have played the matchup more than I.

Landstill's best matchup is the control mirror.  However, in this matchup, Control Slaver has to be the beatdown/aggressor.  Be aggresive with Thirst and Welders.

[cheeseman202000]

OK, guys.  What ever happened to Chalice of the Void as an important element in control decks such as this?  I think that it is a definite necessity.

[Godot]

OK, guys. What ever happened to Chalice of the Void as an important element in control decks such as this? I think that it is a definite necessity.

When was it ever actually played in control decks--especially in control decks lacking Workshop?  Keeper ran it for what, a week?  Furthermore, whats it going to do in this deck?  Drop it at 1 and shut off your Welders, Brainstorms, and Ancestral.  Drop it at 2 and shut off your Drains.  Drop it at 3 and shut off your Wishes, Will and Thirsts.  Also, Chalice limits your options when Slaving your opponent.  Chalice is worthless in here.

[Garth One Eye]

The only feasible change I have utilized in Rich's build is dropping one Island for a Mystical Tutor.  The land/mana base has been solid enough to absorb it; and I'm able to set up Demonic, Ancestral, Walk, Will, Wish, etc.

I tried Entomb for a while, and it wasn't working like I'd hoped.  Needing a Welder in play made it worthless sometimes.

I've also been siding in Memnarch in some matchups, but I'm still in the testing stage.