Time to pop a boner for Staff of Domination

[Matt]

If Isochron Scepter isn't being used, then this has ZERO chance outside of combo, so don't even bother trying it in any other capacity.

[Hi-Val]

Two things I'd like to point out that people seem to be missing:

1. A combo that casts less spells to win ends up winning more. Look at the rebound qualities of Dragon vs. D7. Dragon actually has a midgame if counterspell is cast; D7 has much less of one. Dragon needs to cast one spell whenever to win. D7 takes ten spells on one turn. A two-card combo that is unrestricted and can be cast over more than one turn is not something to ignore.

2. In any workshop deck, the mana curve starts at 3. Either you open with Workshop or Tomb + Mox. The Staff's cost is irrelevant. It comes down whenever it needs to. There is no manascrew to talk about.

Re: Isochron Scepter-- The scepter requires that you invest a really good card that might not ever be cast. This one doesn't. We can safely call this "Apples and Oranges".

Oh, and the answer for Null Rod is simple. Cunning Wish for Echoing Truth/R&R and win. Cunning also grabs the Stroke from the sideboard as another kill in case your Magma Mine dies.

[DavidHernandez]

Oh, and the answer for Null Rod is simple. Cunning Wish for Echoing Truth/R&R and win. Cunning also grabs the Stroke from the sideboard as another kill in case your Magma Mine dies.

I totally disagree with this. Answers to Null Rod are not "simple", which is why Null Rod is such a house.

You can't Cunning Wish for ANYTHING when your mana supply is shut down on turn one.  

Beyond Null Rod is Damping Matrix, which most control decks would start sideboarding in if a combo ever came out of this new scepter.

Isochron Scepter with a Brainstorm on it seems much better (to me) than this card.  Looking at the amount of mana you need for Staff of Domination (5!!) means you will have to hold off on casting your spells in order to use it, and running Workshops doesn't help in this regard since you cant use the Workshop mana.

If you are looking for an infinite-mana combo, I still don't see how this card is going to be better than existing combo engines.  On the surface it appears to have potential, but I think it will be too easily hated out.

dave.

[Ric_Flair]

Phil, I did check out your numbers and they did not support my opinion definitively, so I omitted them.  Still given how much more difficult Draw 7 is to play than Dragon I think it is fair to say that Draw 7 is more powerful, but its numbers are lower due to complexity.  The fact that Draw 7 shows up as even with Dragon is a testament to how good it really is.

Next time make sure your numbers definitively support my bald generalizations.  

I hope this is very sarcastic.  

Anyway, regarding the strength of Draw 7, if good players are playing Draw 7, then it's obviously the same strength as Dragon is.  If the good players aren't playing Draw 7, what does that say about the deck?

Yes that was sarcastic.  I am sorry if I was misunderstood or impugned Phil's unbiased approach.

[Matt]

If workshop mana could be used for artifacts' activation costs (like [card]Vedalken Engineer[/card]), this card might have a future in T1.

[Morpheus31]

This card might be good as an alternate win condition but as the primary win it seems it would die a null rod or d matrix.  Both cards are gaining a giant amount of popularity because of workshop decks and because of control slaver.  Against all artifact decks null rod hurts a lot it is near impossible to win if you do not have an answere.  This card seems to be leaning towards workshopstyle or might be considered in a combo keeper deck (probably not).  
The problem is that Null rod and d matrix are cards that are being played in the main deck (the former more than the latter) and unless this combo is going to be insane this card better stay in the sb or in the binder.
I just do not like workshop decks but can anyone blame in an enviorment where Gay/r, oshawa and fish are all popular budget decks that see a lot play because there easy to build on 5 proxies.

[defector]

I thinkit's neat, I would build this as a storm deck and kill with tendrils, drawing your entire library without paying life is neater than bargain(another two card combo).  It's not house, but its interesting an dif you could run it in an adequate stall style mud deck, it may be effective.  I don't have much more to express than interest, but the null rod fux this deck doesn't impress me, because hate is part of life, ground seal fux dragon and my answer is sfw.
defector

[Thug]

You infer that MUD has made some sort of significant adjustments to the current meta, but nothing much has changed. That list from half a year ago is hardly what I would call "outdated" - that's much too strong of a term. Beefing up the number of Trisks is a wise metagame adjustment, but I've already been experimenting with that in all of the Workshop decks, MUD included.

f you have tested with old list of monobrown MUD not much has changed, but I thought you had tested with wMUD, since most people don't even know mono-brown MUD. And wMUD does run a full 13/14 cards that don't help with an early lock, where MUD runs only about 3.

You seem to believe that MUD always gets busted hands, and it just hopes to win the die roll to get its almighty threats up asap and just win. I only wish the deck worked that well and was that consistent.

What I'm trying to explain is that you don't need all that busted hands anymore, since decks have become more easier to disrupt. One of MUD's hardest matchups was Keeper which ran simply too much land, but there's no 21land.dec anymore, and this makes the lock a lot more consistent, since you need less pieces.

And the argument about bleeding death are also less relevant, since a single smokestack wins you games, a Karn does, and now Trike does too. And you still have Skullcaps to keep the deck going.

The Staff combo shores up that particular weakness - having a "mid game" after the early game plan fails.

By running the staff you must give up a part of your early game, which makes the lock more inconsisntent and makes sure you will enter the midgame more than your origionally, and if you dont understand MUD don't wants a midgame yet I don't think you ever will.

If the early game fails, you'Re in a bad position, but even if you might enter the midgame a card like winter orb is a lot better for that than the staff is, since it can also be useful in the early game and is part of a lock.

As far as the match-ups between MUD and Slaver/7-10 are concerned, I'd rather not continue any theoretical debates in this thread. Yes, you can stop any deck with Trini and/or Wasteland and lock them quickly with Stack, but you can just as easily plop down early Trini and Wires and just fizzle out.

I can post solid test results if you want me too, I ahve tested a lot with Workshop Slaver and MUD lately so about that matchup I can tell you it's pretty much even, and about 75% of the times a deck starts it wins.

If Slaver manages to win a game MUd started is often because of FoW followed by acceleration. For this reason it's hard too see why 7/10 would be any worse for MUD, especially since there creatures do nothing to you adn can just by blocked by karn.

Koen

I'm sorry if you feel offended by any of my comments, but I can't stand it when people talk about MUD incorrectly, and that's what you're doing IMO.

[dicemanx]

if you dont understand MUD don't wants a midgame yet I don't think you ever will.

There is seriously no need to be so condescending. It doesn't strengthen your argument to try to belittle me or straw-man me.
 
It's very clear that MUD doesn't want a mid-game. But, sometimes you enter that mid-game without any choice because MUD has difficulty seeing many cards early and lives off the top-deck, so it can sputter quite often.

Like I said, if I could get that deck to run as consistently as you seem to suggest it is, then I wouldn't have given up on it. Same goes for many other people I suspect, as MUD has all but disappeared.

What I'm trying to explain is that you don't need all that busted hands anymore, since decks have become more easier to disrupt.

All I will say to this is that I wonder if anyone else would agree with you on this point. I certainly don't. The necessity for having busted hands has *increased*, if anything, in the current meta.

I'm sorry if you feel offended by any of my comments, but I can't stand it when people talk about MUD incorrectly, and that's what you're doing IMO.

Well, that's your opinion. If you "can't stand it" you have to try to relax a little .

[Thug]

Like I said, if I could get that deck to run as consistently as you seem to suggest it is, then I wouldn't have given up on it. Same goes for many other people I suspect, as MUD has all but disappeared.

wMUD has mostly dissappeared, but MUD was never played by much people, so you can't say it wasn't given up by most people. A lot of people can't imagine playing the deck without welders, but they do not know of the roots of the deck, nor of the advantages of mono-brown MUD. This is why I'm trying to explain the deck is still very viable today, so that people will test mono-brown MUD and see it for themselves.

All I will say to this is that I wonder if anyone else would agree with you on this point. I certainly don't. The necessity for having busted hands has *increased*, if anything, in the current meta.

Well I will say to this it that you just have to pick up the deck and playtest ±10 games versus slaver and than come back and post your results and what you found. I understand I can't convince you with words, neither can I show you games I have played, so you will have to find this out yourself, if you choose to refuse so, so be it.

Let's stop this argument now, since the topic is drifting away from the original subject and there's little use on continuing this.

Koen

[skecreatoR]

Then post a MUD list and lets us with the time test it out and see if it is so viable as you say. You won't ever accomplish anything if you don't let some part of the community test your deck, especially when talking about such a old deck who haven't showed up in months.

You can just pm' me and I'll be happy to test the deck.

[Thug]

You could off course also read the whole topic and look up the information yourself, but whatever, I'll quote myself

To quote myself from another topic, where you should take a look at btw, since it has some information about a newer list of MUD. But that list it outdated already, since I have been testing some more against the current decks lately.

It's back! I swear, it coud be a metagame breakin' choice right now. Control Slaver decks run only 17 land, and recently some people even went do to 16. Thats just asking for some disruption.

The topic

In the list I posted there you should remove the brooches and 1 karn to make room for 3 maindeck Triskelions. Also the ports once against are replaced by Fields, although this can chage back again.

[Methuselahn]

If workshop mana could be used for artifacts' activation costs (like [card]Vedalken Engineer[/card]), this card might have a future in T1.

I disagree.  I think we'd still be able to find better cards than this if workshop mana could be used that way.  There are already many mediocre cards that would be insane if this were the case.  

[dicemanx]

OK, to turn this thread into something more productive again, here is my first pass at artfact-combo.dec. I'm starting with mono-brown, but a version with color splashes (for tutors, card drawing, or Welders) might ultimately be better. Here we go:

Combos:

4x Metalworker
4x Staff of Domination
4x Lodestone Myr
3x Lightning Greaves
4x Time Vault
-------------------
19

Disruption:

4x Defense Grid
4x Tangle Wire
4x Smokestack
--------------------
12

Extra slots:

5x ???
--------------------
5

4x Mishra’s Workshop
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
3x Rishadan Port
4x Ancient Tomb
5x Mox
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
 -------------------
24


Right now I'm attempting to incorporate as much synergy as possible into the deck. I've decided to unite the Time Vault and Lodestone combo with the Staff + Metalworker combo. The Lodestone works decently with Staff as well, getting +1/+1 for every mana youhave untapped. The Staff + Worker is essentially a two card combo, because it lets you draw out your entire deck, and you can drop all your disruption and combo off with Lodestone + Greaves + Staff. The Time Vault is a bit weak, but I decided to add more synergy in the form of Wires and Smokestack. I was also considering Howling Mines and/or Winter Orbs, as they go nicely with Lodestone. Relic Barrier would then merit a look. Alternately, it might be possible to squeeze in more disruption in the form of Chalice of the Void. One final consideration would be to run some Dust Bowls and add Crucible of Worlds to beef up the disruption element.

Yes, Null Rod is a disaster, but at least we have Smokestack as a way out, and maybe Chalice could be used as a pre-emptive measure (although that would cut off Time Vault and Greaves). Another possiblity is Culling Scales as a way to trash the Rod (secret tech!!).

OK, can we do something with this list?

[Erdrick]

Here is my 2 cents:

-1 Staff of Domination
-1 Time Vault
-4 Defense Grid
-4 Smokestack
-5 Extra Slots
-3 Rishadan Port

+4 Chalice of the Void
+4 Trinisphere
+3 Static Orb
+3 Crucible of Worlds
+3 City of Traitors
+1 Karn, Silver Golem

Reasons:
You don't need 4 Staffs or Vaults since multiples are not helpful.
Trinisphere works better for you than Defense Grid.
Static Orb has better synergy with Lodestone than Smokestack.
I see City of Traitors being better than Port.
Crucible of Worlds goes well with the City of Traitors and Stripmine/Wasteland.
Karn is an alternate win.

I hope this helps.

[Erdrick]

Sorry I missed this, where is the Black Lotus?

[DavidHernandez]

You don't need 4 Staffs or Vaults since multiples are not helpful.

Actually, you DO need the 4-of's because the deck needs consistent draws on the first turn.  Lacking a draw engine like Brainstorm/AK/Ancestral/TFK or Grafted Skullcap/Mind's Eye you need to run multiples.

@dicemanx: Do you think it would help to have Gilded Lotus to help pay for the Staff's activation costs?  Perhaps a mana base similar to Workshop Slaver could be considered.  It would also allow for future renovations to include a blue draw engine.

Dave.

[dicemanx]

Unless the deck starts running tutors or card drawing, 4 of each combo piece makes the most sense, as DavidHernandez states. And yes, I forgot to include Lotus in the original listing.

@David: The deck isn't so mana intensive, so I doubt Gilded Lotus belongs until we start considering splashing colors. However, to make the Staff + Metalworker combo work, the deck has to be very artifact intensive. I also view the Staff mainly as a combo piece - I don't expect to reach 5 mana and start drawing cards. The mana could also be useful to pump Myr via Staff, but that doesn't seem like a good enough reason.

Trinisphere works better for you than Defense Grid.

Trini is better disruption, but Grid protects your combo better vs countermagic and is faster. Drain costs only 3 under Sphere, 5 under Grid. Both deserve a look.

I see City of Traitors being better than Port.

You could be right. Port is still pretty decent though, as is Dust Bowl (especially with Crucible).

Static Orb has better synergy with Lodestone than Smokestack.

Stack is your only removal though, and it works well with Vaults. Still, like Winter Orb, Static Orb deserves a look as well. The options are exciting .

[Eastman]

Staff does not untap a creature that can't be targeted. Greaves is a no-no.

[dicemanx]

Staff does not untap a creature that can't be targeted. Greaves is a no-no

True, but Greaves works with the Myr, and it allows you to combo off if you top-deck either the Myr or Worker without having to wait a turn.

[Erdrick]

You don't need 4 Staffs or Vaults since multiples are not helpful.

Actually, you DO need the 4-of's because the deck needs consistent draws on the first turn.  Lacking a draw engine like Brainstorm/AK/Ancestral/TFK or Grafted Skullcap/Mind's Eye you need to run multiples.

I am sorry I disagree with you.  But, as previously discussed, Staff is probably best as a mid-game card.  And Vaults, along with their possible instant win with Loadstone, are there to help the lock keep going.  Neither card needs to be in your opening hand.  Also, nearly all the recent wMUD and MUD decklists I have seen only run 3 Grafted Skullcap/Mind's Eye. But, this will best be decided through actual playtesting.

In my opinion, the cards you want 4 of are those that would be good to drop first turn or those that are good in multiples (Metalworker, Loadstone Myr, Tangle Wire, Chalice of the Void, and Trinisphere).  The cards you want 3 of are those that don't fit the above requirement but, have potential by themselves or are good counter bait (Staff of Domination, Static Orb, Crucible of Worlds).  And really, you may be able to drop down to just 2 of Lightning Greaves and Time Vault. (I have played a Loadstone wMUD deck for a while and no one has ever countered the Time Vault.) These 2 additional deductions could make room for the Lotus and maybe a second Karn.

Staff does not untap a creature that can't be targeted. Greaves is a no-no.

This helps to support by above statement about lowering Lightning Greaves to a 2 of.  But hopefully, in that situation, you will have another creature in play so you can just Equip it back and forth.

[dicemanx]

I am sorry I disagree with you. But, as previously discussed, Staff is probably best as a mid-game card. And Vaults, along with their possible instant win with Loadstone, are there to help the lock keep going. Neither card needs to be in your opening hand.

The deck I posted is primarily a combo deck. Therefore, you *do* want to see a Vault or Staff early, so you can combo off quickly. Maximum redundancy is therefore quite important.

[Jacob Orlove]

I am sorry I disagree with you. But, as previously discussed, Staff is probably best as a mid-game card. And Vaults, along with their possible instant win with Loadstone, are there to help the lock keep going. Neither card needs to be in your opening hand.

The deck I posted is primarily a combo deck. Therefore, you *do* want to see a Vault or Staff early, so you can combo off quickly. Maximum redundancy is therefore quite important.

Then why not run 4x Serum Powder?

[dicemanx]

Then why not run 4x Serum Powder?

I was thinking about it .

It might make a lot of sense in this deck, but I don't quite know if Powder is that useful. Consider: if you have an opening hand with a Powder in it, and the hand is decent, you have, in effect, mulliganed to 6. This is equivalent to mulliganing once with a deck lacking the Powder. Now we can assume that more often than not, one of the two hands (your initial 7, followed by a mulligan to 6) will be a playable hand, so whether you see a Powder or not in your opening hand will be of little consequence.

Powder is slightly better if starting hands with Powder in it are poor. In that case, you can toss it away for a fresh 7. Assume that this hand doesn't have another Powder in it. Then you have just seen two hands (one six card hand with a Powder in it, and one seven card hand). This is, once again, just like seeing an initial 7 and mulliganing down to 6 with a deck that doesn't run Powder. And again, if we assume that only one mulligan is needed on average to get a playable hand, then the Powder isn't pulling its weight. In effect, Powder reverses the number of useful cards you see - 6 the first time, and then 7 the next time (assuming you don't draw another Powder again - probability of that happening twice is small). Compare this to non-powder decks that see 7 first, then 6 if a mulligan was necessary. Which is better?

There are some downsides to Powder to consider too: when it is top-decked, its as if you actually mulliganed for each Powder drawn. Furthermore, whatever card the Powder is replacing could possibly make unplayable hands playable, negating the need for a mulligan.

Of course, if the deck does *not* get playable hands after one mulligan on average, then Powder gains in strength, but then again, who would want to play such an inconsistent deck?

I hope that made sense. It's getting late and I'm on the verge of falling asleep .

[Rico Suave]

Then why not run 4x Serum Powder?

It might make a lot of sense in this deck, but I don't quite know if Powder is that useful. Consider: if you have an opening hand with a Powder in it, and the hand is decent, you have, in effect, mulliganed to 6. This is equivalent to mulliganing once with a deck lacking the Powder. Now we can assume that more often than not, one of the two hands (your initial 7, followed by a mulligan to 6) will be a playable hand, so whether you see a Powder or not in your opening hand will be of little consequence.

Powder is slightly better if starting hands with Powder in it are poor. In that case, you can toss it away for a fresh 7. Assume that this hand doesn't have another Powder in it. Then you have just seen two hands (one six card hand with a Powder in it, and one seven card hand). This is, once again, just like seeing an initial 7 and mulliganing down to 6 with a deck that doesn't run Powder. And again, if we assume that only one mulligan is needed on average to get a playable hand, then the Powder isn't pulling its weight. In effect, Powder reverses the number of useful cards you see - 6 the first time, and then 7 the next time (assuming you don't draw another Powder again - probability of that happening twice is small). Compare this to non-powder decks that see 7 first, then 6 if a mulligan was necessary. Which is better?

I've done a lot of playing with Serum Powder in another deck, so this is coming from experience but not necessarily perfectly relevant to this deck.

If you're keeping a 7 card hand with Powder in it, then you are keeping a hand you either know will win the game or is broken.  It's a win-win situation there, even if you consider yourself to have essentially mulliganed.  

Additionally, I don't consider it an actual mulligan for the same reason that Tog doesn't consider an extra land a mulligan - it fuels your deck via Metalworker.  Not only that, but you have Workshops to cast it.

There are some downsides to Powder to consider too: when it is top-decked, its as if you actually mulliganed for each Powder drawn. Furthermore, whatever card the Powder is replacing could possibly make unplayable hands playable, negating the need for a mulligan.

I don't think of Powder in terms of "if this was card X I would have a playable hand," but instead I think of it as "is this hand broken?  Ok, I win."

If your hand is unplayable because of Powder, then mull it.  You're going to see 7 new cards, which is the same exact position as a non-Powder deck, only better because now you removed a lot of chaff from your deck.  

Some people think of Brainstorm as making their deck 56 cards.  Powder really does make your deck 56 cards and then some without even a mana requirement.  Ideally, you'd run 20 cards if you could so your deck gets your broken cards more often, but you can't.

Obviously, topdecking a Powder when you don't need it is bad.  The same thing goes for excess land, too, or even a Metalworker.

Of course, if the deck does *not* get playable hands after one mulligan on average, then Powder gains in strength, but then again, who would want to play such an inconsistent deck?

On the other hand, with Powder in the deck you can oftentimes mull for free, and if you mull for free then why not mull more than once?  

The card is very deceiving.  It looks horrible on paper, but can do randomly amazing things.  This is coming from someone who bad-mouthed it before trying it.

[dicemanx]

The card is very deceiving. It looks horrible on paper, but can do randomly amazing things. This is coming from someone who bad-mouthed it before trying it.

It's good to hear some new perspectives on this card, since it is seldom discussed. I'd certainly try it out in the four empty slots to see how it performs - maybe it will work out well.

[DavidHernandez]

Does Powder work with Madness? i.e., I remove from game my openning hand, which consists of 4 Basking Rootwallas...do they come into play, or does the Powder have a Replacement Effect?

it also seems to me that this card can very powerful in a deck like Belcher, where you are looking for a specific set of cards.

It's weird, but has potential.

Dave.

[skecreatoR]

It have been tested in Belcher, and while it is very powerful, it isn't useful in the current build, as it is filled with draw and other stuff.

Madness: Doesn't it require to discard a madness card to play it for its madness cost? Serum Powder removes from the game, doesn't it?

[Jebus]

Serum Powder removes cards from the game, not discards.

Besides, the game hasn't started yet, so Madness shouldn't even be a factor (although that may fall under guru level rulings).

[Johnnymc]

The problem, in my opinion, with our new toy is that on its own it is quite inferior to any other card I would play in t1. Honestly. 5, tap, draw a card? WtF? I don't even use tower of fortunes. And you're telling me I should sink my 30+ mana into...5 cards. F that. I'd rather have a draw engine that goes off immediately when you need it, not when you have enough mana to do anything possible.

Well of knowledge is better in slaver, honestly. I'm considering testing with 2.