this might be overly ambitious, but here goes nothing

[jpmeyer]

Simply put, I want to know what decks beat what other decks.  I think this will really be the only way that anybody will ever be able to figure out which variants of decks are truly the best versions (note that I mean such as GAT vs. Tog rather than 3c Tog vs. 4c Tog.)  I think only after taking a hard look at what decks beat which decks will there be any way to consolidate anything.  It's also important here to use fairly standard versions, and this includes sideboarding.

Here's a start/example:

Tog:
Unfavorable: Fish, Dragon (maybe FCG, need to test more)
Neutral: Workshop Slaver, Drain Slaver, GAT, Madness
Favorable: all others

Hopefully this can be handled matter-of-factly and people don't have to have bruised egos because lowest common denominator language ("you say it's favorable, I say it's not, let's just say that it's even") gets us nowhere.

[Zherbus]

I think it's an oversimplification, but I'll play along. I think unfavorable means just that - anything worse than 50/50.

TehBus:
Unfavorable: Belcher, Tog
Neutral: Workshop Slaver, Mana Drain Slaver, GAT, Fish, EBA, Madness
Favorable: Food Chain Goblins, Dragon

[PucktheCat]

Perhaps this should be broken up into Gay/r, Fish, etc.  But this thread seems to be about embracing generalizations, so:

Gay/x
Poor: TnT, Madness, decks with fast fat
Neutral: ?Drain Slaver?, many other decks
Favorable: Tog, ?Workshop Slaver?

That is my experience anyway.

Leo

[Kowal]

Ninja Mask
Loses to:  TPS and Dragon (and pretty much any combo unless I get a lucky root maze)
Breaks even with:  Workshop Slaver, Hulk
Beats:  Everything else

[MixedkNuts]

Hey Jay PEA,

Do you Type Uno folks actually know how to playtest?  Like, not YOU, per se, but the general populace?  Maybe they need articles lika dis one, so that you can get useful results?  I dunno what j00 guys 'no, my man, I'm just sayin'...

--Knut, slummin

In general, nope! -jpmeyer

Also, Knut, thanks for the link! -Pip[/color]

[Triple_S]

In general I would say that the hardcore playtesting is centralized to the individual teams.  For instance, the Paragons last year intensive play testing that identified Hulk as the best deck and Vengeur Mask/Mono black mask as the next best contenders.  TSB has been doing similar work and 7/10 was the result of the pre-DC testing.

[rvs]

I think this is really impossible to comment on. Simply put, you cannot guarantee solid test results from everyone and his mom, especially since testing partners might have different skill levels. Also, since I assume sideboarding is an issue, every sideboard can be tuned to beat a specific deck/metagame. In short: there are too much variables to give a solid answer to any question.
The only thing we can truly say that in general the deck with the most broken cards / most card-drawing is the best deck, since it will either out-break the opposing deck or out-draw it, both resulting in more/better options to the player of the deck with the most broken stuff/most draw.

Did that make sense? If it doesn't, I'll try to clean it up and elaborate when I'm not so tired as I am now.

[Vegeta2711]

FCG
Favorable: All aggro decks, Tog, Control Slaver
Neutral: Dragon, GAT, BFD, Workshop Slaver
Unfavorable: Other Combo, Landstill, Bus

[waSP]

Mock all you will..

R/G Beatz
Favorable: Keeper, Landstill, Shop Slaver, Drain Slaver, Fish, EBA
Neutral: Tog, Madness
Unfavorable: All combo, FCG, TnT, GaT

Highly, HIGHLY tested.
(except FCG, which might be 50/50)

Not AS tested.

Land Destruction (Green, with Red splashed so they'll use their Wastelands)

Favorable: Combo (minus Belcher), Keeper, FCG, Shop Slaver, Fish, EBA
Neutral: Tog, Drain Slaver
Unfavorable: Belcher, TnT, Madness, GaT

It's inconsistent though, and not too popular.  Just inputting it for anyone who happens upon it and finds it interesting.

A question.. Are we listing versions with hate?  Because if you add a sideboard of hate, matchups change drastically.

I'm curious about the Belcher stats.

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

From my testing I have to differ on Zherbs results a little

GermBus
(with Null Rod SB instead of Matrix)
Belcher moves to Neutral (thx to Null Rod)
In my experience GermBus destroys (Shop)Slavery.

So for me it looks like:

GermBus:
Unfavorable: Tog
Neutral: Belcher, Mana Drain Slaver, GAT, Fish, EBA, Madness
Favorable: Workshop Slaver,Food Chain Goblins, Dragon

[Shades]

Here are my Belcher stats:

Unfavorable: Not found...

50/50:  Hulk, Fish, Stax, Workshop Slaver, Draw 7

Favorable: everything else...

I'm still not sure about the Draw 7 Matchup. It could be tough because both decks are nearly as fast as the other, but Draw 7 has the Force...

[bebe]

Belcher has a very rough time against Fish. They have Rods and FoW that hurt you. Not that it is unwinnable but it is not favorable. Control as a whole plays Belcher well. Game one is almost always favorable if they do not know what you are playing. Its game two and three that is a headache.
Draw 7 is probably the better combo deck.

[Rico Suave]

BFD
Unfavorable: Dragon
Even: FCG, Shop Slaver
Favorable: Belcher, Draw7, Tog, Fish, Control Slaver, GAT, Venguer Mask, Landstill, R/G, Madness

[Smmenen]

Someone should have started this along time ago.  the Type one community seems unable to start up this kind of dialogue because of the paralyzing fear of endless argument.  The dialogue is reallly the important idea here - not the accuracy of the assertions.  

I tried to start this dialogue in my most recent article by highlighting strengths and weaknesses of various decks.

Steve

[Gabethebabe]

For Belcher EBA should be unfavourable.

[Wollblad]

There is a huge amount of different build of Stax and Lock & Stock, but I'll try to sum it up for those versions using Trinisphere:

Unfavorable: Workshop Slaver, TnT, Stacker, Control Slaver
Neutral: Dragon, Keeper, Ur Fish
Favorable: ToG, GAT, Belcher, Draw 7, Rector-decks

Dependeing on how the decks are build, Dragon might move to Unfavorable, and Fish to Favorable, but I'll think this will do for some kind of  "Standard builds". Not tested or porly evaluated: EBA, Landstill, FCG, Madness, Big O, Mask-decks.

[FireFall26]

Here's a start/example:
Tog:
Unfavorable: Fish, Dragon (maybe FCG, need to test more)
Neutral: Workshop Slaver, Drain Slaver, GAT, Madness
Favorable: all others

FCG is DEFINETLY unfavorable.  I have been palying tog for a while and taking it to many tournamnets like waterbury, and have tested vs fcg.  When at waterbury my only losses were versus fcg, and big O.  Big O should defiently be in the unfavorable.  Once you've dedded their board and think you've gotten control, they just bazaar squee back into more threats.  Good aggro like fcg and big o are ard for hulk.

[Dwarfinat0r]

@firefall

Against FCG , if you have FoW for a first turn lackey the game gets a lot easier from there especially if you are running deed. This is not my favourite match-up but if played correctly I wouldn't call it unfavorable.

[Tristal]

January Keeper (No Exalteds, 3-4 Decree, no Iso)

Unfavorable: Tog, FCG
50/50: Affinity, "beats" decks not as fast as FCG (IE, 3 color madness), IsoKeeper, TnT
Favorable: Anything else with Workshops, Draw 7, Dragon, Black Mask

I haven't tested Fish or Gay/R, but I'd guess they're both around 40/60 (and thus unfavorable)

[MuzzonoAmi]

Ravager Affinity

Unfavorable - U/G Madness (budget), Drain/Workshop Slavery, Fish, Combo(Non-Dragon)
Even - Madness (3c Powered), Ninja Mask, TnT
Favorable - everything else

[Fishhead]

I'd like to add these results to the Belcher discussion:

Unfavorable:
Fish (Null Rod, FoW, Stifle, Daze!)  
Trinisphere.dec (can mull aggressively for Trini.  Odds of finding = 60%)

Neutral/Slightly Unfavorable:
Control (FoW or no?  Can't mull as aggressively as Trinisphere decks)

Favorable:
Dragon (Me faster!)
Sligh (Me faster!)
FCG (Me faster!)

And to 'Tog v. FCG:

Against FCG , if you have FoW for a first turn lackey the game gets a lot easier from there especially if you are running deed. This is not my favourite match-up but if played correctly I wouldn't call it unfavorable.

FCG has a solidly winning record against Tog right now at C&Js.  FCG is generally played by good players and the 'Tog players have been a mixed bag, but still there were some good ones among them.  Just data points for people to chew on.

[Thug]

Monobrown MUD

Unfavorable: Gay/R, Dragon, Stax (pretty close to even though)
Even: Germbus, Workshop Slaver, U/G Madness
Even to Favorable: Drain Slaver, Draw7, Tog
Favorable: FCG, A lot of stuff
Very Favorable: Belcher (you have 12 "I win" cards, so they need to win the die roll and pull 2 first turn wins)

[bebe]

JPs Madness deck is also a horrible match up for Belcher. Maybe worse than Fish - Touches, Oxidizes, Rods and FoWs -

[Dozer]

Ravager Affinity

Unfavorable - U/G Madness (budget), Drain/Workshop Slavery, Fish, Combo(Non-Dragon)
Even - Madness (3c Powered), Ninja Mask, TnT
Favorable - everything else

According to my experience, Germbus should appear in the "even"-bracket, especially if you include sideboarded games into the equation. R&R, FTK and up to 4 Swords are not easily defeated when backed up by Angel lifegain.

Dozer

[wuaffiliate]

I would say gay/r is as such, a little more specific:

Gay/r
Poor: FCG, Madness, BigFat/710, RG Beatz
Neutral: Exalted Keeper, Draw7, GAT, Big0, Landstill, WTF
Favorable: Tog, Workshop Slaver, Control Slaver, Dragon, Belcher, Venguer Mask, Ravager

[Grand Inquisitor]

***Are we even supposed to be questioning what gets posted here?  If not, please delete***

Gay/r

Favorable: Dragon

I was wondering what the rational for this is, for those who have tested it heavily.

I know the Strip effects and stifle are solid, but in games I've played, Dragon's redundancy can get through what Gay-R has to offer so long as it can develop its mana base.

[dicemanx]

I know the Strip effects and stifle are solid, but in games I've played, Dragon's redundancy can get through what Gay-R has to offer so long as it can develop its mana base.

This match-up is pretty much 50/50. Gay/r's best shot is mana denial, because despite its great card drawing its otherwise a bit thin on answers. The match-up is worsened if Dragon is running Xantids, unless gay/r is running the pingers. Who knows if 4 Razorfin Hunters shouldn't be standard with all the Welder decks and FCG.

[Fishhead]

I was wondering what the rational for this is, for those who have tested it heavily.

I would also put it at neutral, maybe even slightly favorable to Dragon.  (I watched people playtesting this last week, but haven't tried it myself.)  The Fish player was one of our strongest players, but certainly if the Bazaar engine got going he would get swamped.  OTOH, I didn't see him draw any Wastelands when they mattered.

Amazingly enough the dice roll seemed to be quite important in this matchup.  

[wuaffiliate]

It really depends on the ammount of stifles, dazes and the creature mix.
Spiketail just makes their combo slower, daze has the same effect.
Stifle is huge and is so very good when trun in 3-4s in dragon heavy environments.
Pingers + sigil works is another aspect of gay/r that can deal with dragon.
Crypts are also important, more so than rods in my experience.

I run more pingers+sigils.
Usually 3-4 sigils so my dragon match has been pretty good to me.
I always seem to take the majority.
In testing and in actual practice.

If there was a selection between Neutral and Favourable.
Dragon would be there.
Although it really is dependant on the build.

[JACO]

I was wondering what the rational for this is, for those who have tested it heavily.

I would also put it at neutral, maybe even slightly favorable to Dragon.  (I watched people playtesting this last week, but haven't tried it myself.)  The Fish player was one of our strongest players, but certainly if the Bazaar engine got going he would get swamped.  OTOH, I didn't see him draw any Wastelands when they mattered.

Amazingly enough the dice roll seemed to be quite important in this matchup.  

My experience has been the opposite, with Dragon (3 different builds, UB, UBG, and UBGR) losing about 60-70 percent of the matches. The UR/Gay/Homo Fish build that we have conconted and been testing runs 4 Lavamancers, 2 Razorin Hunters, and 3 Rootwater Thief main, among other disruptive things like Wasteland, Stifle, Force of Will, Daze, Null Rod. Xantid Swarm is pretty much worthless in this match, and dies a horrible death in quick fashion. Most Fish variants are running them, but an unchecked Rootwater Thief will end this match in very short order. Post sideboard it gets even worse for Dragon, with Blue Elemental Blast, Tormod's Crypt, and Sigil of Sleep coming in for Fish.

I know the Strip effects and stifle are solid, but in games I've played, Dragon's redundancy can get through what Gay-R has to offer so long as it can develop its mana base.

This match-up is pretty much 50/50. Gay/r's best shot is mana denial, because despite its great card drawing its otherwise a bit thin on answers. The match-up is worsened if Dragon is running Xantids, unless gay/r is running the pingers. Who knows if 4 Razorfin Hunters shouldn't be standard with all the Welder decks and FCG.

Not to turn this into discussion of the GayR/Fish archetype, but Razorfin Hunter is amazing in the deck right now. In light of the massive quantities of Goblin Welders in the format, as well as things like Goblin Lackey, Gorilla Shaman, and Xantid Swarm, coupled with the fact that it is ridiculous with Curiosity, I highly advocate anybody testing builds of GayR to be including at least 2-3 Hunters in the builds they test against everything.