Crucible Control - Let's forget combo and go for control

[ump]

Why does everyone insist on breaking Crucible with a combo deck?  I feel that it is fairly strong in a control deck.  This is the version that I have been testing out and results are very good so far.

Mana - 11
4 Volcanic Island
4 Island
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus

Utility Lands - 15
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Barbarian Ring

Creatures - 3
3 Gorilla Shaman

Counters - 12
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Red Elemental Blast

Draw - 10
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
1 Time Walk

Removal - 3
3 Fire/Ice

Hate - 6
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Null Rod

Sideboard - 15
3 Flametongue Kavu
3 Rack and Ruin
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 ?

Card Choices

Gorilla Shaman - An answer to an opponent's Welder along with it's familiar role as mana denial.  It also serves as the secondary win condition.

Null Rod - Normally, you would see this only in an aggro deck.  However, it is here because other decks break artifacts far more than this deck can, even if I were to put a full set of moxen on my side.  If it wasn't for Slavery decks or really fast combo decks, this might not even be necessary with the Mox Monkeys already there.  Time and testing will tell if this can safely be removed.

Red Elemental Blast - Take a look at the top decks in the format.  They all run Force of Will.  If they have any draw engine, it is likely they are running blue.  Why not just bring them in early in the first game?  This deck is trying to beat the tier one decks and will worry about the tier two decks in the second and third game.

Library of Alexandria - This is NOT in the deck because I don't want to drop this first turn and I would rather go for Wastelands, REB, Brainstorm, or Shaman.  Besides, the draw engine is not reliable enough to get back to seven cards anyways.

Flametongue Kavu - Two for one answers for aggro.

Blue Elemental Blast - Answers for Welders, Blood Moons, Goblins, and possibly dragon (more testing necessary).

Rack and Ruin - Two for one answers for most workshop based decks.

Tormod's Crypt - This may not be necessary because BEB answers dragon and if you cut down the engine (with REB) of Tog or Slavery, you don't have too much to worry about the graveyard.  However, it may be insurance in an unknown metagame.

The last spot in the sideboard is still up for grabs.  I didn't test ALL the matchups enough to figure out what needs more help.

Synergy

Mishra's Factory/Standstill - It's not the best draw engine, but it's still a decent one.

Fetchlands/Brainstorm - A lot of people realize this as another draw 3.

Fetchlands/Crucible - A way to thin your deck to increase the chance of getting more business spells.

Mishra's Factory/Crucible - Short of Swords to Plowshares, you always have the option to revive your win condition.

Barbarian Ring/Crucible - A tertiary win condition or even a Welder controller in the late game.

Strips and Wastes/Crucible - A decent way to take control in the mid to late game.  Don't count on getting this combo going too early in the game.  In fact, outside of a Mana Drain, in most cases you probably don't even want to play it early saving mana for counters.  If you can resolve one in the midgame, it's usually game breaking as your opponent starts to lose almost all of his or her lands.

Game Play
The early game is about tempo.  You want to deny your opponent mana early through strips/wastes.  You want to deny your opponent card advantage early through your counters.  If you have an opening, play a Null Rod or Shaman if appropriate to further the mana denial.  In the mid game, try to get the Crucible into play, but don't force it through, but rather wait for the appropriate moment.  Then, recur the strips/wastes to shut down their mana.  Follow that up with attacks from Shamans and Factories.

[Matt]

Since your win condition is basically unkillable with Crucible out, do you really need to run all four Factories? I would think two would be enough.

[pox_reborn]

4 does seem like alot. Only in heavy dragon and slaver metagames where graveyard hate will hit you could I see running a full set of 4

[BreathWeapon]

You can't build a control deck around Crucible, it has to augment the Deck. Its probably best to just drop 2 into Keeper, where it looks like it would be really interesting.

[PucktheCat]

Have you considered running Intuition + DA or AK?  That is a savage draw engine, obviously, and Intuition is quite good with Crucible.

Leo

[Justinsane]

What does this deck do if they drop a first turn threat like most workshop decks can do now?  
I would reccomend
-3 fire/ice
+3 cunning wish
also maindeck reb might not be necessary

also maybe splashing white to this for Stp,balance, and doj

[xrizzo]

Would it hurt anything to include fastbond and zuron orb in here?  I know you want to go a control route, but fastbond is begging to be added.  (and crop rotation for barbarian ring)

I think this build will probably suffer from the moxes and other mana accelerants being played in other decks.  (i know mox monkey is there, but it wont stop drain mana)

Anyway, I don't want to discourage innovation - just wanted to make a couple suggestions.

[Fastbond]

Here's another possibility for a control Crucible build.  The deck might not be optimal but perhaps some of the card choice can lead to an epiphany for card choices.

Engines(12)
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mulch
4 Standstill

Control(13)
4 Force of Will
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Gorilla Shaman

Damage Sources(16)
X4 Mishra's Factories
X4 Treetop Villages
x4 Barbarian Ring
X4 Faerie Conclave

Tutors(6)
X4 Brainstorm
X1 Ancestral Recall
X1 Time Walk

Mana(14)
X4 Gemstone Mine
X4 Undiscovered Paradise
X6 Lomoxen

[xzero]

This just reminds me of a bad Shining deck.  You could take a Keeper skeleton, and add the Crucible combo, totally dilute the manabase, and waste slots, or you could just play regular Keeper instead.

[Machinus]

I said this in the other Crucible thread, you need to make a U/G turbo control deck with exploration and fastbond. I don't know but Horn of Greed seems too slow, it may just be better to run good draw like Intuition, TFK, and brainstorm. Put in fetchlands, two or three of those lands that make you sac an untapped basic when they come into play, the manlands of your choice, DEFINITELY LoA and a coliseum, and you could run gemstones with no adverse effects. I was thinking about putting in a discard engine so that I could abuse undiscovered paradise. What do you think?

[Gabethebabe]

You can't build a control deck around Crucible, it has to augment the Deck. Its probably best to just drop 2 into Keeper, where it looks like it would be really interesting.

Agree. Almost. I think Crucible will end up at a useful tool in Keeper and various other types of control decks. But as a one-of.

[johnstown713]

I really don't see how this deck can function properly with only relying on lands for the win condition.  What happens if somehow sui black or something pushes out a withered wretch?  Don't you lose to any graveyard hate that you can't counter?  Maybe it is me but this deck seems pretty risky.

Johnstown713

[ump]

Since your win condition is basically unkillable with Crucible out, do you really need to run all four Factories? I would think two would be enough.

True you only need one, but you want to increase the likelihood that you will see one early enough.  Plus, you can almost go aggro/control in some ways with early pressure.  If this deck were more than two colors, then I would say that less factories are possible, but as it is, the mana distrubution seems to work to allow the colorless mana.

Only in heavy dragon and slaver metagames where graveyard hate will hit you could I see running a full set of 4

The only thing graveyard hate negates is Crucible.  If they are sideboarding in graveyard hate against this deck, then they are just being foolish.  The key to beating this deck is to overwhelm the counters with broken stuff.

You can't build a control deck around Crucible, it has to augment the Deck.

But that's what I am trying to do, to build an aggro-control deck that is augmented by Crucible rather than completely dependant on it.  True this deck is less aggro than most aggro-control decks, but usually a mid-game Crucible is game-breaking.

I'll reply to the rest of the posts later on, but for now I just want to reiterate that the top decks in the format are Tog and Slavery.  This deck aims to beat the top decks and worry about the other decks in the second and third game.  Sure a first turn Juggernaut uncountered will probably beat this deck, but what deck can beat every other deck first game?  In that scenario, even a Cunning Wish would be too late as the best I can get is Rack and Ruin and by then, I would be dead.

Also, please don't suggest turning this into a combo deck that relies on Crucible because you would want to completely revamp the deck to make green it's main color and add tons of accelerators to try for a first turn Crucible.

[Matt]

I think with 3 Shaman, you don't need Null Rod at all, and so could change those into Moxen, which helps you deploy the Crucible a lot faster, and also speed up your Wish-R&R to kill that Juggernaut that's got you so scared .

[ump]

I think with 3 Shaman, you don't need Null Rod at all, and so could change those into Moxen, which helps you deploy the Crucible a lot faster, and also speed up your Wish-R&R to kill that Juggernaut that's got you so scared .

Let's suppose I modified my deck to include Cunning Wish.  The Null Rods would become the off-color moxen.  I would trade 3 Fire/Ice for 3 Cunning wish or more likely 4 Red Elemental Blast for 3 Cunning Wish and one random card.  Then, I would make my sideboard wish friendly.  First, I would not modify certain non-wishable stuff so I would keep 3 Flametongue Kavu and 2-3 Tormod's Crypt.  Then, I would have my wishable creature removal - maybe 1 Fire/Ice or 1 Starstorm.  Then, I would have my wishable artifact removal - 2 Rack and Ruin so I could side one in and keep one in the sideboard.  Then, I would have my counters - 3 REB and 2 BEB again leaving one of each back when necessary.  Then, I'd have a draw card such as Gush.  Maybe I would have a catch all like Chain of Vapor.

Now that the deck is modified, what I am left with?  Game 1, I have no dead cards and a few answers from the wish.  None of these answers are the caliber of Keeper because I don't have access to all the colors.  The time spent wishing for an answer will leave me vulnerable for more threats that I again cannot answer.

However, if I don't use Wish, then games two and three, I can bring in all my best answers in 3-ofs instead of 1-ofs plus wishes.  I should be more able to consistently have the answers that I need.

You might be right about the Null Rods not being needed because the Shamans are there, but Shamans can't do much against the big artifacts such as Gilded Lotus, Mindslaver, Belcher, etc.  It also is limited in what it can do against a combo deck's artifact mana rush in the early game.  For now, let's just say that I am skeptical and more testing will determine if this is a sideboard card or a maindeck card.

As a final note, I want to point out that I am not afraid of first turn Juggernauts.  In the first game, I can give my best effort and then go to the second and third game.  Then, I have Flametongues, Rack and Ruins, and Annuls (because that is the currently the leading candidate for the last sideboard slot).

[Colossus]

Its probab ly best in a land destruction deck. . . just strip over and over again. . . run it green/blue so you have artifact and land fetch, splash white for fetch to get to the fastbond more readily.  Strip mine every land in they play.  Win the game however you want.

[Entropy]

I've been skimming these "control" decklists and I'm wondering to myself why I'm not seeing any cycling lands in these decks. Did I miss something about Crucible's wording?

Crucible of Worlds
You may play lands cards from your graveyard as though they were in your hand

Why wouldn't you want to use cycling lands. Basically, during your opponent's discard phase, you get to tap out and draw more cards. When we talk about card advantage, we're usually thinking that if we get to kill 2 or more cards with one of ours, we are in the advantage.

You bring some cards in from Mirrodin block and we get a card like skullclamp (when used in certain decks gives you 2 cards for zero). Right now, you guys want to make some sort of crucible deck, and I'm seeing some of that same advantage - you get to draw cards for nothing but mana. Furthermore, this works during your opponent's discard phase. Also, they can't really counter your cycling (they can stifle it, but that's still  card advantage for you since they used a card to stop you from getting a card?)

Anyhow, I don't want to ramble or anything, but can we start seeing some cycling lands in these decks? Who knows, maybe you guys can build a great deck around that huge card drawing mechanic.

Edit - fixed the wording on Crucible

[johnstown713]

I am not totally positive but although you can play them as though they were in your handm I don't think you can cycle them.  I think I heard that you can only use abilities if the land is in play.  I think that was wrong so you are probobly right.

Johnstown713

[Dr. Sylvan]

Cycling only works if the card is physically in your hand. You cannot cycle from the graveyard during a Yawgmoth's Will turn, nor can you cycle lands in the graveyard with Crucible of Worlds in play. The definition of "discard" in Magic prevents it.

There Ain't No Such Thing As Free Card Drawing. (TANSTAFCD) :)

[johnstown713]

Yeah that is what I thought it was.  Thanks for clearing that up.

Johnstown713

[ump]

Why did I bump an old thread that is over two months old?  I did because I have new information to report.

Why should people even care anymore?  I truly believe that this is a very viable deck with strong matchups against control and combo and decent matchups against aggro post sideboard.  I only regret that I don't have the time to attend any major tournaments in the near future (including GenCon) to prove its worth.  So, I figured I would show my latest deck list.  Maybe this may help someone else that is building a similar deck.

Decklist
Mana - 12
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus

Utility Lands - 15
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Barbarian Ring

Creatures - 3
3 Gorilla Shaman

Counters - 15
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Condescend

Draw - 6
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Brainstorm

Removal - 6
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Cunning Wish

Gamebreaker - 3
3 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard - 15
3 Flametongue Kavu
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Fire/Ice
1 Starstorm
1 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
4 Annul
1 Disenchant
1 Rack and Ruin

Adding white is the first obvious change made.  The answers it can provide against creatures are very necessary.  Replacing Fire/Ice with Swords offers a better solution to the larger creatures.  I was considering changing the Flametongue Kavus to Exalted Angels, but then came to my senses and realized most aggro decks play strip effects and there is not too many sources of white to enable an unmorphed angel.  I played this deck with a Shattering Pulse and second Hyrdoblast instead of the Fire/Ice in a recent power tournament.  I did not do well enough against aggro and not having enough removal really hurt.  Another card that could be tried in that slot is Maze of Ith, but I haven't tried it.

Despite removing the Islands, the mana base is just as good when I tested against decks such as 4c Control with all the strip effects.  I haven't tested this against decks that run Blood Moon, but I am not such who still runs that.

I removed the Standstills for Condescends.  They similar purposes.  They offer a bit of control and card quality.  I am not sold on either one of them.

On a related note, I went to my first tournament in over 9 months in order to test this deck out.  I won't bother posting anything in detail because I did not take good notes, and the decks I faced weren't exactly the decks you would see on a "Decks to Beat" list.

In the first round, I faced a Stompy deck that run Crucibles.  I don't run enough solutions for this type of aggro, so I didn't stand much of a chance the first game.  The second game was winnable, but I made crucial mistakes that cost me that matchup (tapping lands to play a Crucible with Mana Drain mana floating costing me that ability to Barbarian Ring a lone Wild Mongrel without any card support).  I also couldn't counter a second Berserk later in the game.

In the second round, I faced a deck that ran Sundering Titan but also included duallands and many basic islands.  The Titan is annoying but bearable with a Crucible and blocking Factory, but an unanswered Welder turns the game around.  I also make more countering mistakes in the first game resulting in a turn two Titan.  In the second game, I can answer the first Titan with swords as I didn't Shaman his Mox to allow him to weld it in response.  It came at a cost as I wasn't able to answer the second one with the welder still active.  An active Crucible helped deal with the land problem, but not in time as the welder eventually did its thing to win the game.

In the third round, I faced a green Crucible combo deck.  Crucibles can be negated by my own Crucibles plus I have the ability to get rid of theirs.  I lose the second game, but win the other two.

In the fourth round, I faced a control deck running Standstills, Shamans, and Decrees.  In the first game, he has two shamans and tries a Standstill. We have a counter war which I lose and I swords one of the Shamans in response.  After about ten turns, I finally find a Factory and soon even an active Barbarian Ring.  I somehow force him to break the Standstill and I win various counter wars and soon end up with a Crucible.  I win both games.

I stopped playing after that round.  Quite honestly, I shouldn't have played because I didn't really have the time to stay the whole time even if I did well.  Anyways, I hope even a little bit of my work can be passed on.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

The condescends seem kind of janky, so I'm not sure about them.  Library manipulation is great, but you need SOME kind of draw engine in the deck, otherwise you will get steamrolled when you run out of answers.

Without the standstills, the mishra's factories aren't really that good, even though they can be protected by crucible.  Another win condition might be superior, or you could just go monkey beatdown.  Withe the factories gone, there would be no reason not to splash black for the addition of yawg will and demonic.

[HuntedWumpus]

you need SOME kind of draw engine in the deck, otherwise you will get steamrolled when you run out of answers.

I agree totally here. When I saw the first draft it, I thought it had great potential because of a strong draw engine such as standstill. This build lacking such an engine is likely to loose control once the game progresses into a late game state. Additionally you cannot count of the crucible to maintain total control, It can be dealt with, and since your kill is fairly slow your opponent has a large window to do so.

Im not feelin' the love for the 4!!!!! mainboard REB's

I would think . . .
-2 REB
-1 Brainstorm
+ 3 Standstill
 . . . would be really helpful. But I would additionally  . . .
-1 wasteland
+1 standstill
. . . but that is just me.

[Dozer]

Counters - 15
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Condescend

What I do not understand is why you play Condescend in this slot. 12 counters would already be a lot, and Condescend is conditional. These are the slots I would re-open for either a stronger draw engine (like it has been mentioned before) or another win condition besides Shaman + Factory that helps you shore up some of the deck's problems:

I did not do well enough against aggro and not having enough removal really hurt.

The main reasons I see for this are the lack of card drawing that has been adressed below, and the low threat density combined with insufficient answers in your deck.

One solution would be a win condition that shores up the weaknesses of the deck. The immediate suggestion, of course, is Exalted Angel. I think it would not fit into your deck, though, because it is sharing the 3-mana-slot with your key card, Crucible, and you do not have the mana support for it. This could be changed with a little tweaking, but it would practically make your deck into a bad Crucible-4cControl.
Likewise, Decree of Justice is a card that usually helps to win the control mirror, which your deck already is supposed to do.

So, the other way to improve your aggro matchup is in your removal choices. In place of the three Condescends, 1 Balance, 1 Mystical Tutor, 1 Fire/Ice is a strong play. Even if you say that Fire/Ice is not good enough against the bigger aggro creatures, it can buy you a turn and draw a card. It is just never dead.
The lack of Balance strikes me as odd - do you have any special reasoning against it, or was this an oversight? Seeing that Crucible offsets any land-loss you might have and thus breaks the symmetry of Balance, it is an automatic inclusion in this kind of deck, especially since you say you have trouble with the aggro matchup.

/edit: Oh, and cycling lands are still fine since you can play them as your land drop from the graveyard. EOT draw a card, play the land from the graveyard next turn is a strong play. The problem is that you have to find a cycling land that does not come into play tapped, which is difficult - there is none, iirc.

Dozer

[Apollyon]

Try Sword of Fire and Ice over Condescend. It makes your Mox Monkeys really nice and large, plus it is reusuable with Factories.

I'd go:
-3 REB
-3 Condescend
+1 DoJ
+2 Sword of F/I
OR
+3 Null Rod

Null Rod helps the lock out immensely.

DoJ is an uncounterable win condition and combos somewhat nicely with Sword of F/I. In some brief testing, when the Sword hits play, I win.

[Dozer]

+2 Sword of F/I
+3 Null Rod

Made me laugh.

Seriuosly, Sword of Fire/Ice is a good card, but unless you draw a Mox Monkey to put it on, it is almost useless. Equipping a Factory with it each and every attack ties up too much mana. Remember that each time the Factory de-animates, the Sword falls off. Even for an effect that powerful, you don't want to Propaganda yourself every turn (pay 1 to activate, 2 to equip). Add in the fact that you can never block with an equipped Factory, and the Sword makes no sense here. If there were more appropriate targets, maybe.

Null Rod is probably a better choice, although I am not sure if you should lock yourself out like that, as the deck is pretty mana hungry and you will need the extra mana from the jewelery. In any case, having both Null Rod and Sword in the deck is bad, but that's obvious, isn't it?

Dozer

[Apollyon]

Forgot the OR. I can't type today.

I know that the Sword falls off the Factory, which hurts immensely. However, if this deck has problems with aggro, I'd add a few creatures and Sword to give the deck an aggro/counteraggro approach.

Null Rod should be a rather easy choice for a lock deck that runs light on the artifact mana like this. Null Rod kills TAL Control Slaver and even

Meandeck Control Slaver (+4 one mana cantrips to the list, -4 good cards)

.

[Cross]

why not just make it a semifish build and add lavamancers for  board control, and more creatures which the deck is light on. in addition to the lavamancers I would agree with the null rod camp because it helps the board control immensely. jewlery could then be replaced by land mana sources.
Is maindeck REB a great idea? I know a lot of decks run blue, but is maindeck going to be useful? in addition, why so many? It seems like you'd draw a lot of them in matchups where they might not be useful.