(Single Card Discussion) Key to GAT in the 5th Dawn? Maybe.

[walkingdude]

I’m no belcher expert. But I’ve tested enough that I’m fairly confident when I say belcher doesn’t have the time to cast spells that only draw 2 cards. Particular if they cost two mana, and realistically will often mean breaking a sphere that could have been used for better things.

[Apollyon]

This is efficient drawing, and it looks good in GAT. The damage for Tog isn't incredible compared to Gush, but Gush was restricted for a reason, whether you agree with the restriction or not.

Honestly, this doesn't have the brute card drawing power of Scrying (which I had left out of GAT as too slow), nor the instant speed of Scrying. Could this be playable with Scrying in a 3 Whisper 2 Scrying fashion to get the early power of Whisper and the late game bomb of Scrying? I'll have to test once 5D comes out.

[DavidHernandez]

The life loss with 4 Whispers and 2 Scrying would be considerable.  Almost 14 points if you use the Scryings to pull 3 cards each.  This seems prohibitive to me.

dave.

[Apollyon]

David, I wouldn't play all that drawing. However, Whispers seems like a good replacement for either AK or TFK/DA (although I do like the TFK/DA engine myself, despite the fact that it's expensive). This might be the solution for good drawing that GAT has looked for post-Gush.

[xrizzo]

 
I think this new black card drawer is good - but the sorcery speed just kills it.  On turn 2, it is commong to have 2 duals, and a mox available.  If I pay 1B on my main phase to draw 2 cards, I can't drain the next turn.  If I were playing scrying, I could wait to see if I need to drain, and if not, scry for 2 instead.  If they play something juicy, I can drain, and scry for like 4-5 the next turn...

Realistically this not very likely because in the beginning of the game you almost never have any cards in the yard to make this scenario happen.

This spell is a first turn play while scrying is not regardless of much mana you have on the board.  Therefore, I'd rather play with the sorcery than the instant i have to wait for anyway.  Besides its not so bad to wait a turn to play another land while keeping drain up because it still ends up being faster than scrying.

On turn 2, I can almost always scry for 2.  (between fetch's, brianstorm, duress, and FOW, it is reasonable)  It is difficult, however, to drain/scry for more than 4 on turn 3...  

Scrying is not better in the early game, I think that is clear...  but you will be casting multiple draw spells in the game, and scrying has the potential to be much more powerful for the one card investment.  Just like Mind Twist, but with the benefit of being an instant.

For GAT, Night's Whisper may be a good addition (haven't tested yet) but Scrying is not outdated (as keeper will still run it).

[Ultima]

One thing about Night's Whisper is that it absolutely does not net the same amount of cards as Gush did. I'm surprised to see Ultima say that since as far as I know he's one of the more esteemed GAT players. Gush net 3 cards, this nets 1.

Actually in point to fact, gush only nets 1 card.  Gush grossed 4 cards with 2 drawn and 2 lands but only nets 1 because 2 are lands (tempo loss with out fastbond or tog) and 1 card drawn to replace itself than 1 additional which means it only really nets 1 card.

Therefore the the amount of cards between gush and whisper is the same, the difference is their speeds, costs, (instant/free-sorcery) and how fast they can make your men lethal.

[Tristal]

This doesn't pitch to Force of Will, which I think really hurts.  However, this card is wonderfully busted lategame, where after you've cast it once around 3rd/4th turn, you Will and cast it AGAIN... mm, I can't wait. :)

[Stupid_Newb]

This is by all means a good card. But is it the key to GAT? No.

There isn't much more I can say that hasn't already been said. AK is better (in most cases), Deep Analysis also has an advantage over it.

But, this is one of those cases where I feel I can be very wrong.

[DavidHernandez]

But, this is one of those cases where I feel I can be very wrong.

It's good that you can feel this way, since Ultima has won some major power cards with his GAT builds.

 

As for this card not being pitchable to FoW: neither was Skeletal Scrying.  There are still enough blue cards in the deck not to worry about that.  Remember, 18 blue cards is really the magic number for FoW, and GAT runs more than that.

Dave.

[Machinus]

I don't understand how DA could be better thain this in GAT. Whisper is cheaper, and works independently of other cards.

[Matt]

It's blue, and castable twice if you end up playing a slow game.

[DavidHernandez]

DA is also castable if it gets countered.  Very cool.

dave.

[Ultima]

The thing about DA is that its simply too slow for this deck.  DA is great against control but GAT beats control so well that it simply doesn't need it as Slavery(Workshop) and FCG are far too fast for DA.

When we started testing scrying in place of DA, i was a little worried that Hulk would be alot harder but it turned out to still be a very easy match.

Whisper on the other hand is a play online first turn most of the time, which is a huge difference to DA which is a 3-4 turn play at best.  Most of the time turns 3-4 have to be used for control though which makes DA feel almost conditional.  Its like, unless I drain something, DA is just gonna sit here which is aweful against Slavery because 2 cards can't keep up with thier speed and FCG is like ok you draw 2 and i'll swing for the game.

[Pest]

I think I want to try an engine of 4 AK, 2 Whispers. Here's my reason for doing so. TFK/DA was, to most everybody's knowledge, the optimal engine over the AK engine solely because Tog would horribly outdraw you if you played AK. True this may be, AK nets you more cards than TFK, and Whispers causes you to lose 1 less life than DA. Although it may be black and can't be pitched to FoW, as Dave said, it's no big deal. This engine is more mana efficient, and gets you more cards than the TFK/DA engine. The problem with the Whispers/Visions engine is that they are both sorcery's, so neither of them can be played at instant speed. With AK and Whispers, you can still cast an AK as an instant while still haveing Whispers for extra draw to aid you in the Hulk match-up a bit. This is my outlook on the whole thing, TFK technically nets you 0 cards cuz you draw 1 to replace it, then draw 2 which then causes you to dicard two more. On top of that it's 1cc more than AK. That's how I feel about it, although some of you may disagree with me.

EDIT: all of these comments are in regards to Aggro GAT, not combo GAT. I don't know much about combo GAT and I don't play it, just thought I'd clear that up.

[Methuselahn]

I think the real issue is: Scrying vs Whispers.

If you are playing a deck geared to go UnderSea, Mox, Whisper first turn in order to dig into Force/Misdirection then yes, Whisper may be a little better than Skeletal Scrying.  Being that Scrying is an instant and can draw you 3 cards off a Drain puts Scrying over the top.  

Who cares if Whisper is slightly faster?  It's only slightly faster if you get a black source AND a Mox turn 1.  If you get a land and a Mox, wouldn't you rather want to cast Dryad than Whispers?  In this case drawing after playing the Dryad is much more optimal.

During normal play, I'd rather save turn 2 for Drain mana than spend it to draw cards during my main phase.  Because of this, a third turn land drop into a scrying is much more powerful.

[TheFram]

Obviously, if someone were to run these over instant speed draw, they would be upping the number of pitch counters. With the new trend towards spot removal (Germbus w/ 4 plows between main and side, etc) , as well as most control decks running creatures and most good decks running 4 Forces, misdirection becomes much more powerful.

Therefore, I dont see the mana drain argument as relevant.

If a build were to run these, though, it would probably have to be very aggressive, since it would be playing heavily with it's life total, and using sorcery draw. This would be pretty similar to old-school GAT in play style.

I was thinking something along the lines of

Critters - 7
3 Psychatog
4 Dryad

Draw/Search - 18
4 Brainstorm
3 Night's Whisper
2 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Deep Analysis
2 Serum Visions
2 Cunning Wish
1 Gush
1 Ancestral
1 Demonic Tutor

Control - 11
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Misdirection

Randomly b0rken - 2
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk

Mana - 22
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Swamp
4 Moxen (on color obV)
Lotus
Mana Crypt


This deck has a very diverse draw engine, which can allow it to play both control and aggro. Serum Visions, and Whisper allow you to play aggro and see ALOT of cards. Brainstorm and Tfk can be control or aggressive depending, and Deep is a control card when coupled with drain, or an aggro card when coupled with Tfk.

[Rico Suave]

Obviously, if someone were to run these over instant speed draw, they would be upping the number of pitch counters. With the new trend towards spot removal (Germbus w/ 4 plows between main and side, etc) , as well as most control decks running creatures and most good decks running 4 Forces, misdirection becomes much more powerful.

Therefore, I dont see the mana drain argument as relevant.

How can you not see it as relevant?  Even with 8 counters, the fact that you run 4 Mana Drain means it's important.  

I don't see GAT using Whispers as long as Scrying is legal.  Not only is this not as great a first turn play as it could be, but Scrying has tons more synergy with Mana Drain not only in the fact that you can keep Mana Drain mana open, but also in the fact you can Drain into Scrying.

Scrying also has more potential.  You don't just limit yourself to 2 cards - you literally draw a new hand with it.

[defector]

GAT will use 2-3 copies of this, I think EBA could benefit from this as well, as the weakness there is a draw engine and the strength is life gain with Exalted.  I can't wait to add this to my Mind's Desire Deck.  This is a siolid and I think fair card drawer, less fair than concentrate, not as obviously synergistic as AK/DA, but give it a minute and I think we'll see something nice here.
defector

[BreathWeapon]

EBA wont use this card, it already solved its Draw Engine problem with Skeletal Scrying.

[Jakedasnake]

I don't see GAT using Whispers as long as Scrying is legal. Not only is this not as great a first turn play as it could be, but Scrying has tons more synergy with Mana Drain not only in the fact that you can keep Mana Drain mana open, but also in the fact you can Drain into Scrying.

Scrying also has more potential. You don't just limit yourself to 2 cards - you literally draw a new hand with it.

I think you're really missing the point here. GAT wants to play aggro, with the option of playing Dryad-Control against FCG and other straight aggro decks, plus combo. Most of the time, having Mana Drain mana open is really irrelevant, as you're not going to want to spend a couple of turns leaving UU open so you can drain into a spell. GAT wants to play threats FAST, and use lots of card draw to out pace it's opponents. Mana Drain is used mainly for the mid game, when you've possibly depleted your card draw and already have a threat on the board. GAT doesn't want to play the control mode unless it has to, the deck isn't built around slow-playing.

-Jake

[TheFram]

Thanks for backing me up there jake.

I think the main point is that without gush there needs to be room for both gameplans, control and aggro. Thus the massive number of two ofs. The thing is that two of's of draw cards arent so bad because they are all pretty similar in their effects, however it allows you to use multiple game plans depending who you are playing.

Against say FCG, you need to be the control player for the first few turns so they dont run over your dryads. When playing as a control deck, Drain is important and drain sinks like TFK and DA (4 total, which pretty much guarantees youll find one, then probably another after that). It's also important that DA and TFK pitch to FOW. In this scenario both whispers and scrying are not too great because you may be staring down a lot of goblins. While instant draw is better while playing control, Scrying neuters  Will some of the time, which can make comebacks more difficult. Against aggro therefor, the decision between scrying and whispers is about even.

However, say against Germbus, the GAT game is to play out a dryad turn 1 and back it with pitch magic. Misdirection is sweet in this matchup because keeper is now playing creatures to redirect plow to. Though we cant stop their draw engine with MisD, they will have trouble dealing with ours because it is so diverse and we have as many or more counters for a war. Against keeper, Drain will often get pitched to protect the early dryad that you tapped out for. In this scenario you will often not have the mana for Scrying, while Whispers into other draw will break the game open. DA is also good here because you can play it from the yard (psuedo uncounterable late game) and pitch it.

Basically, Scrying is ass in the FCG matchup in the same way that Whispers is (pain against fcg = not too good), while Scrying is also ass in the control matchup because you will never get the mana to use it for more than 3 cards in most scenarios. GAT is not really about pure card advantage. Its more about seeing the most cards possible in the course of a game. In this Whispers is really helpfull since it is the uber-cantrip.

-TheFram

[Rico Suave]

I think you're really missing the point here. GAT wants to play aggro, with the option of playing Dryad-Control against FCG and other straight aggro decks, plus combo. Most of the time, having Mana Drain mana open is really irrelevant, as you're not going to want to spend a couple of turns leaving UU open so you can drain into a spell. GAT wants to play threats FAST, and use lots of card draw to out pace it's opponents. Mana Drain is used mainly for the mid game, when you've possibly depleted your card draw and already have a threat on the board.  

Please, don't don't tell me I'm missing the point, considering I told other people months ago to play the deck aggressively.

Let's compare two scenarios.

1: land, mox, Dryad
2: land, Whispers, swing for 2.
3: land, something random, leave Drain mana open, swing for 3.

Btw, in case you would attack this example by saying you wouldn't leave Drain mana open here, then the question isn't Whisper vs. Scrying, it's really "why am I playing Mana Drain in the first place?"

vs.

1: land, mox, Dryad
2: land, swing for 1.  On their turn, Mana Drain something random.
3: land, Scry for a bare minimum of 2, do more things with the stuff you draw, swing for 5+

Hmm.  It seems that the second option ironically ends up being more aggressive.  Even if they didn't play right into Mana Drain, you can still eot Scry for 2 and go from there.

GAT doesn't want to play the control mode unless it has to, the deck isn't built around slow-playing.

How is accelerating your mana development by several turns slow-playing?  That's what Mana Drain does, am I right?

I think the main point is that without gush there needs to be room for both gameplans, control and aggro. Thus the massive number of two ofs. The thing is that two of's of draw cards arent so bad because they are all pretty similar in their effects, however it allows you to use multiple game plans depending who you are playing.

Um, you can do the same thing by just using Scrying instead.  You don't need specific cards to play aggro or control, it's inherent in the nature of the deck.

Against say FCG, you need to be the control player for the first few turns so they dont run over your dryads. When playing as a control deck, Drain is important and drain sinks like TFK and DA (4 total, which pretty much guarantees youll find one, then probably another after that). It's also important that DA and TFK pitch to FOW. In this scenario both whispers and scrying are not too great because you may be staring down a lot of goblins. While instant draw is better while playing control, Scrying neuters Will some of the time, which can make comebacks more difficult. Against aggro therefor, the decision between scrying and whispers is about even.

I disagree on a more fundamental basis.  You're playing that match from the wrong perspective.  You steal the beatdown role from FCG, and then you win.  Not that you can't do it by playing control, but that's not as good as having a better primary objective in the first place.

Also, the ability to use Mana Drain to steal a crapload of tempo from the FCG player means you can take the aggro role more often, but you can't Mana Drain very effectively if you use Whispers.  

Scrying does not neuter Will, unless you're playing it wrong.  If anything, Scrying sets up Will by giving you more useful things to fill your grave (as opposed to useless fetches and counters) and - this is key - more ways to find Will.  

However, say against Germbus, the GAT game is to play out a dryad turn 1 and back it with pitch magic. Misdirection is sweet in this matchup because keeper is now playing creatures to redirect plow to. Though we cant stop their draw engine with MisD, they will have trouble dealing with ours because it is so diverse and we have as many or more counters for a war. Against keeper, Drain will often get pitched to protect the early dryad that you tapped out for. In this scenario you will often not have the mana for Scrying, while Whispers into other draw will break the game open. DA is also good here because you can play it from the yard (psuedo uncounterable late game) and pitch it.

Playing Whispers will will break the game open as you put it, but only in their favor because you walk right into Mana Drain.  

I don't include pitch back-up here because it works regardless of what spell you're casting, whether it's Whisper, or Scrying, or whatever.

Depending on the state of affairs, I would not pitch to save a Dryad.  I would actually save the Drain, and then attempt to steal the control role in this match.  Notice how I like to play aggro against FCG, and I like to play control against Keeper.  That is very key to understanding where I'm coming from, because if you manage to take either of those roles you will almost automatically win, whereas your chances of success playing the opposite role is still very good.

Basically, Scrying is ass in the FCG matchup in the same way that Whispers is (pain against fcg = not too good), while Scrying is also ass in the control matchup because you will never get the mana to use it for more than 3 cards in most scenarios. GAT is not really about pure card advantage. Its more about seeing the most cards possible in the course of a game. In this Whispers is really helpfull since it is the uber-cantrip.

Not that Scrying for 3 at end of turn is bad or anything, but if you're going to use the life loss thing, then also keep in mind how terrible Deep Analysis is if you don't want to spend the life to flash it back.  Also keep in mind that if you want to hardcast Deep Analysis, they're not going to hold back.  They're going to go right at your throat because you can't Drain, and that will also result in more loss of life.

The life loss is fine if you understand that the cards you would get from Scrying will counteract the life loss.  Losing 2 life to Scry is insignificant in comparison to drawing 2 extra cards, even against goblins, because of your ability as a deck to just explode if you have enough resources.  

I agree in that GAT is not about pure card advantage, but it is not about seeing the most number of cards either.  It is about tempo.  I find it very ironic people are choosing to play this card despite the fact it interferes with Mana Drain, which reads "UU, gain a load of tempo."

[DEA]

1: land, mox, Dryad
2: land, swing for 1.  On their turn, Mana Drain something random.
3: land, Scry for a bare minimum of 2, do more things with the stuff you draw, swing for 5+

Hmm.  It seems that the second option ironically ends up being more aggressive.  Even if they didn't play right into Mana Drain, you can still eot Scry for 2 and go from there.

skeletal scrying requires the removal of 2 cards from graveyard
the problem is, are there 2 cards to be removed for a turn 2 eot scrying?

[Rico Suave]

You've got pitch counters galore, a lot of fetchlands, Brainstorm, and other things like Ancestral, Time Walk, Lotus, etc.  

If worse comes to worse, you can always save it for next turn and Scry for 3-4.  The cool thing is if the card isn't active immediately, it will grow in power and make up for any speed loss in the early game.

[eddavatar]

Rico: Wow. You really want to remove ancestral walk or lotus for scrying?
I personally believe that whisper is definitely a turn 3 play. I think i'm better off doing the whisper without worrying removing cards that I don't want to remove from the graveyard.

That's yet another reason I'm standing by the AK/Whisper plan. AK is the turn 2 play, whisper's the turn 3 play. This is close to automatic given that the mana base is not disrupted heavily.

[Ultima]

I think what it comes down to is several things that both have stated.

After tsting with both of these cards I might have hve to lean towards scrying.  The reasons being

1. Scrying is faster and you can leave coutner open which does make a huge difference in the FCG match.

2. Scrying can net more cards and with drain, has a sort of pseudo free ability to it which GAT wants.

3. Scrying is not however always easily casted as was stated, there are times when it can neuter will like Avi stated.

4. Whispers sometimes creates awkwardness in control matchs and can be overwhelmed by hulk's and slavers draw.

5. And the biggest reason really is that whispers doesn't give enough cards when it needs to.

After alot of testing, this is my conclusion thus far.

[SpikeyMikey]

Intuition and Mana Drain make DA better, not the other way around. This card is useful independently of what else you are casting. The versatility offered here is more beneficial than the incidental synergies that established powerhouses like mana drain have with a weak 4cc sorcery.

Yes, which is why people run Intution and AK, because great synergy isn't as good as independent worth...

[Rico Suave]

Rico: Wow. You really want to remove ancestral walk or lotus for scrying?

No, I don't really want to remove them, but I do want to draw cards.  Drawing cards will win more games than potentially weakening a card that is already game-winning when it resolves.

Although, there is a random benefit in that you can remove Ancestral and use Cunning Wish to get it back again.

[AggressiveDude]

sorry but in my opinion impulse is just better.

It is blue!
it has Instant Speed!
You dont loose any life
and drawing The Card you need>drawing 2 cards

just my 2 cents..

[DayWalker]

I have played many games with Night's Whisper and with Skeletal Scrying and I would prefer Scrying over the Whisper, because it has instant speed(would said quite often) and you can Drain in your round and you haven't to tap out yourself for two cards when you also can play Scrying for three wit drain mana and have to tap only one mana.
Instead of Impulse you can play Scryings, they are in my opinion better then Impulse and Night's Whisper.