(Single Card Discussion) Key to GAT in the 5th Dawn? Maybe.

[Ultima]

I run 3 togs and haven't had any problems.  4, I think though will clog up your hand with guys and most of the time you only need 1-2 threats for the whole game.  Running more togs isn't about controlling your ard or running aks, its about winning because you can make either dryads or togs lethal ASAP now.

[AggressiveDude]

OK maybe this is question belongs to newbie forum but however why does no GAT verision run strip-wastelands.
Like Keeper it is a 4Color Deck deck.Is it because the Togs Casting Cost?Are Wastelands with Shamans a good possibility?

[Ultima]

I tried it in the past.  It just doesn't fit what the decks wants to do.  GAT is at that point where it can just go off and win in a turn, so why use slots on unnecassary things when you can just win the game.

[AggressiveDude]

My thought was that you play a dryad waste his mana base and play your 1-2 Cantrips and win.

You dont always win the game with Dryad dont you?

[eddavatar]

GAT is a colored mana hungry deck. Running anything more than Library+Strip Mine is going to screw up your game because you will be drawing into more colorless mana sources than you would like.

[Moxlotus]

My thought was that you play a dryad waste his mana base and play your 1-2 Cantrips and win.

You dont always win the game with Dryad dont you?

Why go dryad+waste+cantrip+win when you can go dryad+cantrip+win?

The deck is seriously colored mana hungry and does not need colorless sources.  Some don't even play Strip Mine.

[AggressiveDude]

My thought was that you play a dryad waste his mana base and play your 1-2 Cantrips and win.

You dont always win the game with Dryad dont you?

Why go dryad+waste+cantrip+win when you can go dryad+cantrip+win?

The deck is seriously colored mana hungry and does not need colorless sources.  Some don't even play Strip Mine.

But Germbus is also a colored mana hungry deck which plays colorless mana sources and it is far more succesfull then GAT at the moment.
I dont get it but Dryad+Cantrip =/= Win. If that would be true then GAT would probably be the best T1 deck.
Dryad+strip+cantrip=Win is much more common

[goober]

Germbus is also a far different deck than GAT, it plays the control game, with the inevitability of an Angel to the dome when it has full control.  This deck is more go hard and fast and hopefully the FoWs and little disruption will buy me enough time to get 20 points in.

[Gabethebabe]

Funny how some guys say that GAT can´t make use of colourless mana and other guys that play Mana Drain

[goober]

Theres a difference between being able to use excess colorless mana when you have at least UU on the table, and when you need to trade colored mana for it.  Most of the spells which use colorless cost 1C, so it is still very color intensive.  I personally do not run Mana Drain for the same reason I don't run Strip Mine.  This is not a control deck which eventually stabilizes the game and plays a 4/5 or 20+/11 trampler.  It lays an early threat then hopefully swings for lethal damage before control stabilizes, and before Combo can fight though the FoWs.  Time is its enemy, not its friend.  Leaving UU open on your turn is bad, because you can't end step cantrip or Duress.  There are too many sorceries to leave it open.  Why make it hard for them to cast powerful spells when you can just end the game before they come online?

[Moxlotus]

My thought was that you play a dryad waste his mana base and play your 1-2 Cantrips and win.

You dont always win the game with Dryad dont you?

Why go dryad+waste+cantrip+win when you can go dryad+cantrip+win?

The deck is seriously colored mana hungry and does not need colorless sources.  Some don't even play Strip Mine.

But Germbus is also a colored mana hungry deck which plays colorless mana sources and it is far more succesfull then GAT at the moment.
I dont get it but Dryad+Cantrip =/= Win. If that would be true then GAT would probably be the best T1 deck.
Dryad+strip+cantrip=Win is much more common

Proxy up the deck and play literally 2 games and you will see how colored mana hungry the deck is.  The deck only plays like 20 mana sources so it can't cut down on colored mana.  Adding wastes would mean replacing cantrips which would suck.

[DavidHernandez]

GAT is a colored mana hungry deck.

I totally agree with this.

Funny how some guys say that GAT can´t make use of colourless mana and other guys that play Mana Drain

I understand your point, but there are enough spells (that can use colorless mana in them) to facilitate the inclusion of Drains.  However, to cast those spells you need color.

Some GAT players are running as few as 18 mana sources. If one of those is a Library then you only have 17 color sources. Even with fetch lands this makes it difficult to guarantee that you will get what you need.

Thus the lack of strip effects and the inclusion of Drains.

dave.

[Ultima]

Tempo acceleration isn't the only reason to run drains.  Testing has slao shown that the GAT decks that don't run hard counters lose to those that do in the mirror, Hulk, and Germbus also.  The suicide GAT counter base is too weak for this metagame.

Those are good reasons to run drain but the strips are still unnecassary.

[Pest]

so, has anybody had any new breakthrough's on the NW/Opt engine? I have been testing with it and it is surpriseingly really good. I really had alot of doubt in my mind about how it could be good, but I love it so far. It gets me the answers I need or a way to get those answers almost every time. I'm still debating on that or AK/NW. AK is really good sometimes, and in the long run, I can get a shitload of cards from it, especially after a Will. The only problem I have with AK over Opt is that it costs one more.

[JACO]

I'm always under the impression that the Night's Whisper/Serum Visions engine would run out of gas fast. My goldfishing shows me that it's actually not the case. It's resembling 70% of old-GAT.

However, once force of will/real opponent sets in, I found myself in some trouble. Having no pure instant speed drawer/cantrip other than brainstorm leaves me short-handed against control, be it germbus or Hulk.
I'm often reluctant to cast Visions/Night's Whisper in turn 1/2 respectively because that would leave myself absolutely vunlerable unless I got a force in hand. That relegates visions as a turn 3 play, which is horrible.

Playtesting last night with a new version of GAT, with 4 Serum Visions and 4 Nights Wispers reveals that this deck is indeed 70% of old GAT; the draw part. Unfortunately, the other 30% that this deck lacks is the speed of old GAT, even using Fastbond.

Ultima: I'm interested in what you think the optimal disruption base would be. For me, It is really dependent on the draw base.
...
4 FoW
4 Mana Drain/Counterspell (for Night's Whisper/AK and Night's Whisper/Opt respectively)
1 Misdirection
1 Stifle (maybe 2)

I firmly advocate that the proper counterbase right now should be:
3 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Duress

In our testing of this deck, with the ton of sorcery speed draw (i.e. the suck), ideally you want to be casting either a first turn Dryad, Serum Visions or Night's Wisper. You don't want to be casting Duress first turn (I don't, at least). My testing has revealed that Duress and Stifle suck, while Daze has been AMAZING. In the spirit of Chapin-Gro (i.e. what this deck is based on), you really want to win counter wars in the first couple of turns, and Daze does exactly that, while not forcing you to pitch your whole damn hand away. After this, Mana Drain has been decent to help fuel things like Cunning Wish and Night's Wisper. The counter base we've been testing is as follows:
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
2 Daze
4 Mana Drain

2-3 Duress in the sideboard

Daze is absolutely amazing in here; I encourage you all to test it, as it especially helps you cast numerous Serum Visions in the same turn if you are low on mana. We'll probably be adding another Daze to the main and dropping one of the mana sources.

One thing I'm QUITE curious about though, is everybody's apparent need for 2-3 Psychatogs in the deck. Psychatog is almost never a card I want to see early; it's just a card I want to see one turn before I can kill my opponent with it. Now Dryads, on the other hand, I want to see very early, and all the draw and manipulation of the deck enables me to do that. For this reason in the GAT builds we've been testing we've played a configuration of 4 Dryads and 1 Psychatog, and it has been a high enough threat count. This also helps not auto-losing to Slaver. Let's hear your arguments...

[Ultima]

My testing has revealed that Duress and Stifle suck, while Daze has been AMAZING. In the spirit of Chapin-Gro (i.e. what this deck is based on), you really want to win counter wars in the first couple of turns, and Daze does exactly that, while not forcing you to pitch your whole damn hand away. After this, Mana Drain has been decent to help fuel things like Cunning Wish and Night's Wisper. The counter base we've been testing is as follows:
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
2 Daze
4 Mana Drain

2-3 Duress in the sideboard

Daze is absolutely amazing in here; I encourage you all to test it, as it especially helps you cast numerous Serum Visions in the same turn if you are low on mana. We'll probably be adding another Daze to the main and dropping one of the mana sources.

One thing I'm QUITE curious about though, is everybody's apparent need for 2-3 Psychatogs in the deck. Psychatog is almost never a card I want to see early; it's just a card I want to see one turn before I can kill my opponent with it. Now Dryads, on the other hand, I want to see very early, and all the draw and manipulation of the deck enables me to do that. For this reason in the GAT builds we've been testing we've played a configuration of 4 Dryads and 1 Psychatog, and it has been a high enough threat count. This also helps not auto-losing to Slaver. Let's hear your arguments...

In regards to Daze, I don't understand how only playing 2 daze does all the great things in question.  Daze is a very situational card and outside of the early game has no real application.  Duress is far more versatile in suppressing an opponent's early early game and giving you vital info as how to play the roles.

As to visions, I don't know how you haven't seen that visions sucks with whispers, sleight or opt are strictly superior for this deck.

To togs, I won't play less than 3 because this deck want a guy down ASAP, and whispers with cantrips can almost always make togs as lethal as dryads immediately.  Dryads are great in the beginning also, maybe even more than togs but this deck loves to have different gameplans and options to justify why its the best aggro-control-combo deck right now.  Having the ability to play the tog game, gro game, or just control with either is what makes this deck stupid and only playing 1 tog doesn't give you ability to play the tog game at will.

[UnCmn1]

Daze is an awsome card but as ultima said it is situational(It is reactive rather than proactive). I would suggest putting the Duresses back in because it not only allows you to see thier hand you can strip them of a card they need to go off.  To protect yourself, duress also lets you plan out your moves adding only a few cards to the mix every turn. Also on another note for JAco i would suggest taking out the misd due to the fact of non targeted draw.

[Zelc]

One thing I'm QUITE curious about though, is everybody's apparent need for 2-3 Psychatogs in the deck.

The other thing I'd like to point out is that you can side the Psychatogs out games 2 and 3 against stuff like Slaver, perhaps for Damping Matrixes or Null Rods or something.

As to visions, I don't know how you haven't seen that visions sucks with whispers, sleight or opt are strictly superior for this deck.

Could you please elaborate on this point?  I can see how Opt may be better than Visions due to its instant speed, but what about Sleight?  Sleight of Hand is better than Visions only if the top card stinks, but the second one is good.  This advantage diminishes greatly if the third card stinks, or if both of the top cards are good.

Daze is an awsome card but as ultima said it is situational(It is reactive rather than proactive). I would suggest putting the Duresses back in because it not only allows you to see thier hand you can strip them of a card they need to go off. To protect yourself, duress also lets you plan out your moves adding only a few cards to the mix every turn.

Daze helps protect you when you're tapped out, say to play a turn 1 Dryad or something.  Duress will generally compete for the same mana as Dryad, Whispers, and cantrips.  That makes Duress a later game play, which weakens it significantly.

Also on another note for JAco i would suggest taking out the misd due to the fact of non targeted draw.

Winning counter wars = good stuff.  Besides, he only has two.

OT: Mozilla doesn't seem to handle the text boxes very well

[DavidHernandez]

i would suggest taking out the misd due to the fact of non targeted draw

Dont take out the Misdirection's. In fact, up the count to 3. I've said this seemingly forever, so I won't bore you by repeating the various reasons.

MisD is underrated.

dave.

[defector]

David is right, I hate playing against Mis-d.  It's not just for counters.  I run workshop slavery and Mis-D is one of the first cards I get rid of on slaving someone.
defector

[goober]

I upped it to 4 and haven't been dissapointed.  I think you need the free counters for resolving that early Dryad, so the redundancy is great.  Snagging an Ancestral every now and again isn't too bad either.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Regarding the creature base I think the 4/2 set up does a nice job of balancing between Jaco's and Rico's comments.  On the one hand, I don't want to see tog early, on the other hand, I don't want to bust out of the gates, and not be able to press my advantage by not having a threat.

As for the disruption/answer base, this is difficult.  I've had very good experiences with Daze, but its biggest problem is that its a card you hate to topdeck.  If you play in a metagame where misdirection is good (ie heavy control), then this decision becomes easier since you want to play aggressively and Daze and MisD do this better than Duress.

I think the problem some of you may be having with Duress is that you want to cast it early like in other decks.  I usually spend the first 2-3 turns setting up and laying threats so that when I want to 'go off' I have the duress as a cheap pre-emptive counterspell to lead my yawgwill/ancestral/whatever.

I seriously doubt that we'll know what the best combination of whispers/ak/visions/sleight will be for some time.  I think its obvious that the deck has gotten to a point where DA and thirst are just too clunky.  Also, while skeletal scrying is a great card in a control version of this deck, a control version of this deck really is like bad tog.  In an aggressive version of this, it isn't that scrying doesn't draw you more cards, its that scrying doesn't allow you to use those cards right now.  Often Whispers will find you something that will progress your gamestate this turn, and you don't want to have to wait.

All that being said, I think its obvious that this archetype does have the most to gain from the new cards; that doesn't mean it should necessarily play them.

[Ultima]

On the issue of daze, the fact of the matter is that if you look at GAT's matchups and the metagame, Daze doesn't cut it because against Workshop, daze is aweful and Hulk/Keeper can just control to the mid-game when daze becomes irrelevant. I could see it being useful against FCG but only against the first turn lackey then becoming irrelevant like before.

Duress is the proper megame choice for a tourny like Waterbury, but in a control meta, Mis-d is the best.

@Zelc

To elaborate, Visions is aweful in this deck for several reasons, each being why sleight(#1) and opt(#2) are just better.

1. GAT loves its 4 tutors and brainstorm/fetch engine, both meaning that the deck shuffles alot.   If you have to shuffle alot, visions is a waste of time becuase its a set-up card.

2. Whispers is not as much a draw spell as it is a tempo and combo accelerator.  It gets what you want NOW to keep going such as GI said.  Both the other cantrips are of the same nature while visions can often be a turn too slow.  

3. Visions is a great set-up to optimize card drawing but this deck doesn't really have solid drawing like AK/Intuition and Scrying.

4. The format is too fast and time is not a luxury this deck can afford.  GAT is fast and aggressive and wins NOW, not next turn when I know what i'm gonna draw.

Sleight is still the best cantrip of all of them IMO, because between sleight and opt, there aren't always straight forward decisions as to what to put to hand and sleight is the best for those gray decisions.  Also, sleight always goes 2 cards down while opt goes 2 down only 50% of the time.  That's also a huge difference.

[JACO]

Daze is absolutely amazing in here; I encourage you all to test it, as it especially helps you cast numerous Serum Visions in the same turn if you are low on mana. We'll probably be adding another Daze to the main and dropping one of the mana sources.

In regards to Daze, I don't understand how only playing 2 daze does all the great things in question.  Daze is a very situational card and outside of the early game has no real application.  Duress is far more versatile in suppressing an opponent's early early game and giving you vital info as how to play the roles.

On the issue of daze, the fact of the matter is that if you look at GAT's matchups and the metagame, Daze doesn't cut it because against Workshop, daze is aweful and Hulk/Keeper can just control to the mid-game when daze becomes irrelevant. I could see it being useful against FCG but only against the first turn lackey then becoming irrelevant like before.

As I said, Daze has been great, so I am most likely going to 3, to increase the chances of seeing it. The main benefit of Daze is to win the early control wars (i.e. resolving a Dryad, Time Walk, or other tempo card early in the game). Duress slows you down at this time, when in fact I want to be dropping a Dryad first or second turn (if I Brainstorm or Visions first turn). The mid or late game should not be as relevant against Control, because you should already be winning, or in the position to win. Against Workshop, Daze is the most surprising card of all, and if they play around it, that is just great, because they've already slowed themselves down by one turn.

As to visions, I don't know how you haven't seen that visions sucks with whispers, sleight or opt are strictly superior for this deck.

To elaborate, Visions is aweful in this deck for several reasons, each being why sleight(#1) and opt(#2) are just better...

1. GAT loves its 4 tutors and brainstorm/fetch engine, both meaning that the deck shuffles alot.  If you have to shuffle alot, visions is a waste of time becuase its a set-up card...
Sleight is still the best cantrip of all of them IMO, because between sleight and opt, there aren't always straight forward decisions as to what to put to hand and sleight is the best for those gray decisions.  Also, sleight always goes 2 cards down while opt goes 2 down only 50% of the time.  That's also a huge difference.

OK, out of the two sorceries available to us (I hate sorceries), you say that Sleight is good because it goes down 2 cards. What if those two cards are bombs and you don't want to send one to the bottom? Visions does the job much better, and has the potential to dig 3 cards deep (as opposed to two with Sleight or Opt), and massages your deck much better, almost like a sorcery speed Brainstorm and Impulse together. It's insane. The mana cost is the same, and the abilities of Serum Visions are just flat out better than Sleight of Mind. I'm not sure exactly what you are formulating your theory on, but let's take a look at an actual example of how the two cards play out.
[Begin Example 1]
First Turn Sleight of Mind - the top two cards are Tropical Island and Quirion Dryad. If I don't have a Tropical or Polluted Delta in my hand, the Dryad is pretty weak at this point. If I take the Tropical and don't have a Dryad in my hand, that also seems like a weak play. Let's look at what the result might have been had we used Serum Visions.
First Turn Serum Visions - I draw the top card automatically (Tropical Island) and Scry the next two, which turn out to be Quirion Dryad and another land. In all likelihood I would keep the Dryad on top as my second turn play, and then send the other land to the bottom so I wouldn't be drawing another dead card. To me, the difference between Visions and Sleight is pretty obvious.

I know that this is just an example, and there are tons of variables that go into playing the cards and particular matchups, but to me, Visions is just flat out better, and digs deeper through my deck. I love the ability to massage the cards and use it as an enabler, which Sleight of Mind doesn't allow me to do. This (and playing intelligently) is how you win counter wars.

[Ultima]

In regards to daze, NOT every deck is about early counter wars.  More so, workshop doesn't become a turn slower becuase of WORKSHOP, junk loads of artifact acceleration and welders.  My experience in playing daze against workshop is, they play a workshop, then a mox, daze is now dead.  There is nothing slower about that either and your a turn slower for bouncing your land should you try to daze.

At least with duress you can see what's going on first and drop the first turn chalice rather than make them pay an extra 1 for it.

As to sleight and visions, if your example said instaed said, delta and dryad, maybe you could see my perspective.  Visions is aweful when you have to shuffle your deck, and is a turn slow at best.  When you factor in how often you have to shuffle your library then you see its only worth playing about 60% of the time.

And if your example was reversed, and dryad was first then you can see that visions only gets you the card you need NOW 50% of the time.

So i'd rather play sleight which is always good as opposed to visions which is conditional at best.

[Zelc]

A while back, Matt did an excellent analysis of Sleight vs. Visions.  You can find it here.
The conclusion was that Visions is better than Sleight, but it does not take into account shuffle effects.  I'll do it briefly here (All these can be followed by "Otherwise, no change from Matt's conclusion").

First turn cantrip:

Case 1:
Subcase A: TIE if you play an instant speed tutor during upkeep.
Subcase B: TIE if you cannot play the good card on turn 1, SLEIGHT if you play an instant speed tutor during upkeep.
Subcase C: VISIONS if you really need that third card and would otherwise have played an instant speed tutor during upkeep.

Case 2:
Subcase A: VISIONS if you really needed that second card and would otherwise have played an instant speed tutor during upkeep, TIE if you didn't really need that second card and would have played an instant speed tutor during upkeep.
Subcase B: VISIONS if you really need the third card and would otherwise have played an instant speed tutor during upkeep.
Subcase C: VISIONS if you really need the second card and would otherwise have played an instant speed tutor during upkeep, SLEIGHT you would have used a shuffle effect on the second main phase.

Case 3: TIE if you would have used a shuffle effect before the third turn and the first and second cards are not both you need.

Case 4: TIE if you use an instant speed tutor effect during the second turn upkeep.

I'm not going to do a later turn analysis right now.  However, later turn cantrips are less likely to be followed up by a shuffle effect.  However, it seems from this that shuffle effects have very little impact on Matt's analysis for cantrips played on turn 1.  There are only two instant speed shuffle effects, and I doubt someone would play more than 6 shuffle effects, meaning that not every cantrip will be followed up with a shuffle effect all the time.

As to sleight and visions, if your example said instaed said, delta and dryad, maybe you could see my perspective.

Assuming the 3rd card was bad card, i.e. land, and you did have mana to play Dryad:

Visions:
Turn 1: Land, Visions (draw Delta, keep Dryad on top, stick bad card on bottom).
Turn 2: Draw Dryad, play Delta, break Delta, play Dryad.

Sleight:
Turn 1: Land, Sleight (draw the Dryad and put Delta on bottom).
Turn 2: Draw bad card, play land, play Dryad.

Conclusion: Sleight has a very slight advantage, but only if you could play that Dryad on turn 1.  Sleight drew you the Dryad one turn earlier, but you couldn't play the Dryad that turn (baring Mox Emerald + another Mox, or Lotus, in which case Sleight would be slightly better).  Additionally, while Sleight does dig deeper sooner, it didn't matter as the third card was bad.  Note that the shuffle effect of fetchlands did not come into play until after the second turn draw.

If the third card was a good card, it would be a tie if the second land in your hand was not a fetchland, and it would favor Sleight if it were.

If you didn't have enough mana in hand to cast the Dryad, then Visions would be better, for reasons JACO has pointed out.  Even if the top card was a fetchland, the shuffle effect would happen after the land was played, which would be after the Draw Step.

they play a workshop, then a mox, daze is now dead.

By the way, you could always Daze the Mox, but that may not be such a good play.  Also, Daze is still good if they're short of "normal" mana and play non-artifact spells.  Additionally, against Workshop decks, Duress may well dump that Mindslaver into the graveyard for them to weld back (although this doesn't happen that often).  It seems that Daze is better against proactive strategies, and Duress is better against reactive strategies.  They seem to be equally good against combo in general (although one may be better than the other in specific instances).[/url]

[eddavatar]

If daze's purpose is to win early counter wars, wouldn't misdirection do the same job? Daze's early game tempo drawback is too much to handle at a lot of times unless you are having an early time walk. And obviously daze is absolutely horrible mid to late game. Misdirection is just superior to daze in most situations. Personally, before running 2 dazes main deck, I'll run 3 misdirecitons first. Duress is always an option but I usually prefer blue instants over black sorceries in the disruption department.

I don't understand why is there even a debate between Serum Visions and Sleight of Hands. Serum Visions is superior because it fundametally digs deeper. And if you have a fetch in hand, you would usually play Brainstorm over Serum/Sleight anyway.

The true debate in my eye is really between Opt and Serum Visions. I believe everyone is putting too much focus on the first turn cantripping issue. It's quite important to look at the midgame and the late game also. Options are very important. Opt gives us the most options in the long run as it allows us not to tap in main phase. It's digging ability might be the worst among all three, but it's just so much better in place of EOT tricks and counterwars because it gives your the OPTION to dig at instant speed. The biggest problem of running serum visions is that when used along with night's whisper, it might be hard to keep mana open to use hard counters. Opt alleviates the problem a little. I would hate to be the one who's tapped out in a control mirror. Options win games.

If i'm to play with 4 Night's Whisper/4 Serum Visions, there would be no question that I'll play at least 3 misdirection, if not 4. But the question would come down to if I can replenish my hand enought to support 7 pitch counters.

[Ultima]

@ Zelc

Actually in point to fact, most GAT decks run a minimum of 8-9 shuffle effects.  

4 Tutors and 4-5 fetchs minimum

@ Edavatar

Like I said duress is a metagame choice, but mis-d is want i want to play but can't due to the metagame here.

As far as the cantrips, I 've said this many times and why. IMO, sleight is the most optimal.

[skecreatoR]

I think people have to raise the bar a little and come with some facts instead of the ever-pleasing "IMO".

First, to use the best, and forgotten?, analysis of the two sorcery speed (three, actually, but Opt wasn't used) 'Tripdiggers', Matt concludes that Serum Visions is better than Sleight of Hand because:

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16840&highlight= (The winner is of course in parenthesis)

Case 1: one of top 3 cards is the one you want to keep - Winner: Tie

Sub-case A: Top card is the one you want, next two are no good. (VISIONS)
Sub-case B: Second card card is the one you want, top and third are no good. (SLEIGHT)
Sub-case B: Second card card is the one you want, top and third are no good. (SLEIGHT)

Case 2: two of top 3 cards are ones you want to keep - Winner: Tie?*

Sub-case A: Top two cards are the ones you want, third card is no good. (VISIONS)
Sub-case B: Top and third card are the ones you want, second card is no good. (TIE)
Sub-case C: Second and third cards are the ones you want, top card is no good. (SLEIGHT)

Case 3: three of top 3 cards are cards you want to keep - Winner: Visions

Case 4: none of top 3 cards are cards you want to keep - Winner: Visions

*** combined with Brainstorm ***


Case 1: Brainstorm, putting two bad cards back. (VISIONS)

Case 2: Brainstorm, putting one good card and one bad card back. (VISIONS)

Case 3: Brainstorm, putting two good cards back. (VISIONS)

CONCLUSION: Any deck that would run Sleight of Hand should be running Serum Visions first. It is assumed that all such decks will be running four Brainstorm as a matter of course.

I strongly suggest people read the entire analysis, as it actually explains all of the examples, I just shortened to make it easier to read.

But for the discussion of Opt / Visions, I personally decided on the first because of the reason that I think we are building two different GATs here, and to make GAT the best possible deck, one of those paths has to be followed.

Pro-active GAT

The first of the builds is pro-active and is basing its draw base in the main phase, leaving very little mana open. The force of old-GAT was apperently that it could run 4 Gush, the absolutely most broken card-drawer in the deck. I think that way of running GAT is quite the right way, with free counters. Daze, Misdirection, Force of Will is what this deck shall be based on, my own build is 3/3/4.

The draw here is widely going to be used in the MP1 and therefore the counters has to be free to be of must use. The draw, as well, have to be cheap and efficient. I would run:

4 x Night's Whisper
4 x Serum Visions

Brainstorm + essentials are required here as well. This deck would also benefit the most, I think, from 5 fetch lands, as it rather want to see business spells. A lot of this seems irrelevant to say, but my point will come later.

On other side of the river we have

Reactive GAT

This build focus s more on EOT tricks and card manipulation. This decks counter-base is equal to P-A-GAT, except 3 Daze should  be replaced by 3 Mana Drain, if not 4. As well shall Serum Visions be replaced by Opt to give the deck 10 EOT draw spells.

The point of all this is to say that we are currently taking GAT in two directions, REGAT and PAGAT, and I'm not saying one is viable and another isn't, I'm saying its time to make one distinct build that differs from the other. I up until recently toyed around with 4 Drain, 4 FoW, 3 Mis-D, 3 Daze and found it to be efficient enough, but often I had the feeling that I wanted to focus on one game winning strategy instead of going "hybrid" between the two of them. MADdarg0n, fx., was dismissed by a user because: It isn't Dragon and it isn't Madness. That is quite the same way I feel about many GAT builds we have right now, as the deck is still so early in its development phase.

The old GAT was a streamlined killing machine with a draw engine as powerful as 4 Ancestral Recalls. To achieve something in the same league we need to use synergy in a even more advanced way before, and the key to synergy is following the same game-plan every time. I think it parallels with "Saying NO to cute combos", as the deck needs one way to control the game, not two, very-non synergistic counter/draw engines that sometimes wish a Mana Drain was a Daze and the other way around. It has to make up what it had in the past of raw power with synergy today. And before people realize it, GAT won't be as effective a deck, neither PAGAT or REGAT.

[Zelc]

@ Zelc

Actually in point to fact, most GAT decks run a minimum of 8-9 shuffle effects.  

4 Tutors and 4-5 fetchs minimum

I can see the 4-5 fetch, but where are the four tutors?  Most will run Mystical and Demonic, and some runs Vampiric, but what's the fourth tutor?  Merchant Scroll is pretty awful.  Most do run Cunning Wish, but that doesn't shuffle the library.

Additionally, most of these are used early on, meaning you may not have one later.