(Single Card Discussion) Key to GAT in the 5th Dawn? Maybe.

[Machinus]

If your objective is to play a dryad on turn 1-2, then the cards that dig deepest will support this strategy the best. Brainstorm and visions can dig three cards deep. If you play visions turn 1 in an attempt to set up a turn 2 dryad, you shouldn't be concerned with end of turn effects. FoW and MD are there to provide some cover in the early game. The only issue is that if the fourth card is a dryad, you have no way of knowing that. You draw seven cards, play a land, draw an eighth card, look at cards nine and ten. If NONE of those are a dryad, then the chance that the eleventh card is a dryad is eight percent. This seems pretty horrible.

Sleight of hand will dig two cards deep and give you selection over which one you take, and you are still in the dark over the tenth card. So it would seem that sleight gives you a slight (I know I did not intend to do that but I don't know what that is) advantage in terms of early game pressure, because with visions, you aren't drawing the cards you look at. I would say that choosing between two cards to put in your hand and burying the one you don't want is a better ability than putting the card you want on top of your library. With sleight, you don't know what you draw after, which is where you are if the 2 scry cards are not what you want. Even if they are what you want, you still have to wait a turn to get them.

Matt's analysis of these two cards is more relevant in the late game when you will cast several spells a turn and will have shuffling effects more often. The debate about the mid and late game drawing/countering actually is irrelevant here though, because this is an examination of how to resolve a dryad as EARLY as possible.

Examine these scenarios.

Dryad is card #1-7: You will play it turn 2, or possibly turn 1.

Dryad is card #8: You will draw it and play it turn 2.

Dryad is card #9: You will get it with sleight and draw a random card during your draw step on turn 2. If you play visions, you will draw a random card now, leave it on top, and draw it on turn 2. In this case the cards are equivalent to each other.

Dryad is card #10: You will not draw it with sleight, but will get something else, and draw it on turn 2 and play it. If you play visions, you get less selection over the card you draw, and draw the dryad on turn 2 and play it. Sleight is better in this situation.

Dryad is card #11: You will not draw it with sleight, but will get something else, and not draw it on turn 2. If you have a mox there is a chance that you could draw into it on turn 2 with another cantrip and play it. If you play visions, you will draw it in your draw step on turn 3 IF you scryed BOTH of the cards to the bottom of your library on turn 1. Basically it becomes a really horrible card if you do that. You draw a random card now, and your next draw is random. Why would you play that card? Whispers of the muse is that card except it has buyback and is an instant, and that doesn't come close to seeing play in GAT. Neither card really helps you get the dryad here, but in terms of card selection and quality, sleight definitely has the advantage.

[Evilkin]

I don't know what the optimal lists for GAT are looking like atm, but has anyone thought of giving Probe a try?  It appears to be a superior card then Thirst for Knowledge in a pro-active build like which has been suggested.  I'm sure the kicker will come into play and be quite nice late game from time to time.

[Mirificus]

I don't know what the optimal lists for GAT are looking like atm, but has anyone thought of giving Probe a try?  It appears to be a superior card then Thirst for Knowledge in a pro-active build like which has been suggested.  I'm sure the kicker will come into play and be quite nice late game from time to time.

Probe doesn't really compare favorably with Thirst For Knowledge in GAT. The sorcery speed on Probe hurts considering its a 3CC spell and without kicker it won't be any better than a 3CC cantrip. Thirst For Knowledge also gives you the option of discarding one artifact rather than two cards. As for Probe with kicker, for 3UB, you really should be winning the game rather than merely cantripping and making your opponent discard two cards. The fact that a number of decks can take advantage of the discards like decks with Goblin Welder and madness decks makes Probe with kicker look even worse.

Brian

[Jacob Orlove]

Dryad is card #10: You will not draw it with sleight, but will get something else, and draw it on turn 2 and play it. If you play visions, you get less selection over the card you draw, and draw the dryad on turn 2 and play it. Sleight is better in this situation.

Dryad is card #11: You will not draw it with sleight, but will get something else, and not draw it on turn 2. If you have a mox there is a chance that you could draw into it on turn 2 with another cantrip and play it. If you play visions, you will draw it in your draw step on turn 3 IF you scryed BOTH of the cards to the bottom of your library on turn 1. Basically it becomes a really horrible card if you do that. You draw a random card now, and your next draw is random. Why would you play that card? Whispers of the muse is that card except it has buyback and is an instant, and that doesn't come close to seeing play in GAT. Neither card really helps you get the dryad here, but in terms of card selection and quality, sleight definitely has the advantage.

I think you're underrating Visions here. If Dryad is card #10, Visions lets you KNOW that you're going to draw it, and you get to decide what to do with the other scryed card. With Sleight, you'll have to choose a card without knowing whether you'll draw a Dryad the next turn or not--which might lead to a suboptimal choice.

If Dryad is any further down, Visions lets you see more cards and control your next few draws with that information--which may put you in a much better position when you finally do draw the Dryad.

Basically, even when you're looking for the turn 2 Dryad, you can't discount the increased information and control Visions gives you.

[Machinus]

If you are going to play suicide GAT and go for the throat in the early game, I really think visions is too weak. I really don't think the lack of information would lead you to make a poor decision; at worst, you would grab a dryad and then draw another one, which would be great for suicide GAT. I don't think a GAT build that doesn't concentrate its power on the early game can dominate a tournament as well as hulk, so I am focusing on that build of the deck.

However, in the later game, visions + brainstorm and all the shuffling effects outdo sleight. If you are making a slower, "eot" build of gat, consider opt or visions.

[DavidHernandez]

Let's be very clear here. This is NOT "Suicide GAT". The deck Ultima is discussing here is absolutely superior to "Suicide GAT". Just test the 2 and you'll see.

Dave

[Ultima]

I'm not really understanding why people keep saying that Visions digs 3 cards down like a pseudo-brainstorm and that's why its so good.

That simply isn't true.  First of all, brainstorm digs 3 cards down because you get to DRAW them all now and can change things up then shuffle it all away.  That is what it means when a card goes down 3.

Visions however, ends up being conditional.  That is to say that when the card is played, you draw 1(average at the moment), then look at the next 2.  So say 1 card is decent and one is bad.  Ideally, you toss the bad card away then get your card NEXT turn.  Sleight goes take 2, choose average card or good card, you get the good card NOW or if its the bad card you take the average one and get the good next turn.  Either way, you have to wait but there's a 50% chance you get the card you need NOW with sleight and time is not a luxury you can afford in T1.  The other cases are irrelevant because then its just 2 good, or 2 bad.  2 bad means maybe visions is better here, but 2 good means your deck is staying put and both would be equal because visions means you dont' have to get rid of them but sleight might give the one you need NOW which i'll say is fair though the speed of sleight is probably better.  

To say that visions digs 3 down, I think is mis-leading because sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't.  Then the argument would be that when it doesn't. its because you get good cards.  But see then, you still have to wait that 1 turn which could mean the game.  Its turn however that visions brings more card control, its just more that this control takes too long.  I know that alot of people like the ability to see 2 cards down, but when you start losing games because visions was too slow(like i have), you might see what i'm saying.        

Also, there's a point that not alot of people talk about that applies here which roughly the same point as to why sleight is better than opt.  That is the "gray" decisions.  The biggest reason why sleight is better than opt is because of the gray decisions, or that is to say that its not always so straight forward as to what card you should keep with the cantrips.  Sleight was better than opt because it let you see through those gray decisions, whereas opt would simply make you make the decision blind-folded so to speak because you couldn't see both cards offered.  Visions is much the same sometimes because even when you get to see 2 good cards coming, they're still not as good as what is further in the deck everytime.  When I say 2 good cards, I'm not saying bombs but good cards like say a force and a Mystical.  Neither of those are bad but not as good as the recall you want.  See, sleight is always digging further towards those cards which is what you need to keeping the deck accelerating.  Visions puts you in the awkward position of deciding whether these cards are as good as what could be coming, then you have to wait to see.  Because not every card is a bomb and not every card that isn't a bomb is a bad card either, its very gray.  

This is all without factoring shuffling fetchs and tutors which makes visions jsut worthless.  Its like you visions and get a tutor but your top cards are good but you have to use the tutor now, and your set-up is just gone, or the same with a fetchland.

@Zelc

Virtually all GAT decks play 4-5 fetchs minimum, with some even hitting 6-7 in testing and each roughly playing 4 tutors minimum, which is Demonic, Mystical, Vampiric, and a Merchant Scroll. (Yes,there are teams that are testing these many fetchs, it is true.)

As well, merchant scroll is far from bad in this deck.  That's why this deck used to play 2-3 minimum.

[Setnakt]

I'm not really understanding why people keep saying that Visions digs 3 cards down like a pseudo-brainstorm and that's why its so good.

That simply isn't true.  First of all, brainstorm digs 3 cards down because you get to DRAW them all now and can change things up then shuffle it all away.  Visions DOESN'T do that everytime because you don't draw all those cards now, you draw 1 now (maybe good, maybe shit) then you SEE the next 2.

You haven't really made a distinct point about how Visions ends up being bad, or how it doesn't let you see three cards. You've proven it's not as good as Brainstorm, great, but we can't run 8 of those, so, this doesn't necessarily make Sleight better. "Brainstorm is better than Visions so Sleight must be better than it" doesn't work because you're trying to compare options without really using a consistent benchmark for every example.

That means that you could get rid off 2 more cards.  But what if their all good, then your not digging anymore at all and your waiting an extra turn.  At least with sleight, your always going down regardless and you could be getting that card now.  Visions is conditional and saying that it goes 3 cards down is more like, if my deck is bad it goes down 3 cards, but if its good then 1.  (This is not including the possiblity of shuffling which makes it even worse)

If they're all good then you're better off with Visions anyways because you get to draw them all. If they're good, but for some reason you don't want to see them all, I don't understand how this makes Sleight better because then they're not really good and with Visions you get to push them away. Maybe it's just the wording you used but I just don't understand what you're getting at.

There are instances where Sleight is better, but even just comparing these cards, much less realizing how often those situations come up, you realize it's pretty simple. Visions just gives you more options because it lets you control more cards. If you want to prove that the situation where Sleight is better comes up significantly often with this deck, please do, but until I see that I think I'll trust Visions. Especially with the topdeck tutors that you're talking about using, Visions ends up being much better than Sleight because in that situation it replaces itself with exactly what you want, then lets you set up card quality like you want it, and if there was another bomb below the card you tutored up you don't have to push it down like you would with Sleight.

Virtually all GAT decks play 4-5 fetchs minimum, with some even hitting 6-7 in testing and each roughly playing 4 tutors minimum, which is Demonic, Mystical, Vampiric, and a Merchant Scroll.

Who plays 7 fetches? Even in 1.5 we don't play seven.

[Ultima]

As i said this is being tested by various teams but which teams, i will not disclose as it is their business.

[Sean Ryan]

I have been following the development of neo GAT since Ultima started winning big with it and I am opening a few questions to those who are more experienced with the archetype.  

The first question I pose: is there a definitive build of GAT that is either proactive, reactive, or both?  Or, are there various builds that function differently and have success in different metas?  I beleive the answer is yes to both questions but I am most concerned with the first.

I was looking over Carl's recent list he posted from origins:
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=7560

I thought his mana base was a little heavy and the Fire/Ice MD looked like metagame calls but I liked his list for a few reasons: 1) he was not using Mana Drain as a sacred 4 of but rather more suplimental as a 2 of.  The other thing was he didn't bother with Serum Visions or Sleight of Hand.  When 5th Dawn initially came out I was testing both Serum Visions and Night Whispers in much the same way as other Manadrainers were doing.  

While I came to love Night whispers and found them better than AK in GAT, I recently dropped using either Serum Visions or Sleight of Hand.  The problem with those cards is they are less than optimal without a Dryad on the board.

At this moment I am unsure about the counter base and whether to MD Fact or Fiction.  While the SB needs some work I definitley think red is needed to improve weaker matches.

Here is the current list.

Neo GAT

Threats: 6
4 Dryad
2 Tog

Denial: 12
4 FOW
3 Misdirection
3 Mana Drain
2 Duress

Draw: 10
4 Brainstorm
4 Nights Whispers
1 Ancestral
1 Gush
1 Fact or Fiction (SB?)

Tutors: 6
2 C. Wish
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

Bombs: 4
1 Yawg's Win
1 Time Walk
1 Fastbond


Mana: 22
1 Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
5 Mox
5 Fetch
4 Sea
3 Trop
2 Volcanic
1 LOA

SB: In flux
1 Berserk
1 Oxidize
1 Artifact Mutation
1 Rack & Ruin
2 REB
1 BEB
1 Duress
1 Fire/Ice
1 Firestorm
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Coffin Purge
1 Skeletal Scrying/Fact or Fiction
2 Damping Matrix

Questions & Comments

7/8 - I edited the post with a few recent changes and questions.

The side board needs some work but I'm definitly keeping red.  I havealways used the 3:1 ratio for REB to BEB but I have such a good game vs. other control decks I went to 2:1.  I have more removal than normal.  The Firestorm is for FCG & the Edict is my answer for Angels/Togs A Shaman may take the place of a Damping Matrix.

I removed Deed after Grand Inquisitor pointed out the finer details of why it is not really needed and more of a security blanket.  I doubted fastbond until I started activley playing the aggro-combo role using a quick Will to set things up for a giant Dryad usually on turn 3.  I'm unsure if keeping Fastbond for the combo route is best.  

My counter base is so strong against control.  The Misdirections and Duresses are golden, allowing me to drop the Dryad and play Nights Whispers without batting an eye.  I recently added the 3rd Drain and droped the 3rd Duress.  

Closing questions:
What does everyone think of Fastbond and the combo route?  How do you think my counter base stands up against control, combo,  workshop?

 Should Fact or Fiction be maindecked with a Skeletal Scrying in the SB?  What do you think about using 3 Mana Drains and 2 Duresses MD is it sacreligous or techy?  If you were to add Serum Visions ot Sleight of Hand what would you cut?

Looking forward to hearing your remarks.

Thanks
Sean

[Grand Inquisitor]

I think pernicious deed is a crutch, and not particularly good in the current metagame:

Its doesn't 'solve' FCG
It barely races a morphed angel
It takes out your dryad if you're trying to hit tog
Its much too slow against fish, and doesn't hit man lands
It doesn't stop the slave or titan
its worse than powder keg against storm combo

the only thing that really leaves is Stax.  If you have 2 off color mana and 3 total mana during your mainphase against them, you're probably doing well already.

edit: oh yeah, and fastbond is a necessary evil if you're going to play combo.  it hurts, and its often dead against control if you have a slow hand, but its what allows you to kill turns 2-3 with a good hand.

[Evilkin]

Recently, I tried out a build of new GAT running this for disruption at the last tournament I was at...

4x FoW
3x MisD
3x Mana Drain
2x Duress

People have said this before and I agree that MisD is an underrated card.  I was even able to MisD a turn 1 Ancestral against Belcher...  I was also quite happy with having a big Dryad out and being able to beat down with it while leaving Mana Drain with back up FoW open.

Although some may say Mana Drain is kind of anti-synergistic to the deck, there are just times where you don't need to cantrip your Dryad any further and leaving the mana open for Mana Drain to protect it or yourself from combo is just too huge.  Leaving 2 open for Drain will end up making your Dryad bigger anyways if your opponent wants to cast anything on their turn.

I also ran...

4 Night's Whisper
4 Serum Visions

Serum Visions seems weak, but I think playing it turn 1 over Brainstorm is a very good play.  If you have no Dryad it lets you look at the same amount of cards and then allows you to remove 2 cards to the bottom of your deck if they're not Dryads.  On turn 2 chances are if you still have no Dryad, you have at least a Brainstorm and a Mox allowing yourself to look at another 3 new cards.  You should see a Dryad by now and be able to drop it.  That combination lets you dig 6 deep right away.  Visions helps reduce Mana Screw or Abundace just as well as Brainstorm if not better.  Quite often you draw then move 2 lands to the bottom of your deck.

I Would also like to add some sideboard suggestions for the version not running Red.

1x Berserk
1x Coffin Purge
1x Ebony Charm
2x Pernicious Deed
1x Snuff Out
1x Smother
3x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Naturalize
1x Oxidize
3x Xantid Swarm

Not sure if anyone has play tested the Swarms in this deck or not.  I gave them a try and so far I like them.  I was expecting to see 4cc and found they can be quite good in this match up.  

Not sure if this is Suicide GAT or not, or what the current builds of GAT are looking like atm.

[BreathWeapon]

Ok, putting aside the whole "Draw Engine" thing, how are you guys dealing with Combo, 7/10 and WTF? With out any form of Mana Denial or a consistant contingent of Counterspells, I don't see how you can stop Draw 7.dec from rolling you over. Dragon is arguably worse for GAT than it is for HULK, but atleast Ground Seals are an option. Sundering Titan's and Trinispheres are also more than a slight problem, and i've noticed that Dryad's don't like Boa's.

There are so many more important issues to tackle for GAT right now than the Draw Engine. I can't even find a reason to actually play the deck in a diverse metagame, let alone improve on it.

[Ultima]

Ok, putting aside the whole "Draw Engine" thing, how are you guys dealing with Combo, 7/10 and WTF? With out any form of Mana Denial or a consistant contingent of Counterspells, I don't see how you can stop Draw 7.dec from rolling you over. Dragon is arguably worse for GAT than it is for HULK, but atleast Ground Seals are an option. Sundering Titan's and Trinispheres are also more than a slight problem, and i've noticed that Dryad's don't like Boa's.

There are so many more important issues to tackle for GAT right now than the Draw Engine. I can't even find a reason to actually play the deck in a diverse metagame, let alone improve on it.

Some of these reasons are exactly why I stated before that the proper counterbase should be

4 Duress
3 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

This base along with the proper threat ratio is enough to improve alot of said matchs for GAT.  Duress is exceptionally good against combo.  7/10 is difficult depending on the buuild but gets alot easier after boarding and fish is even to favorable actually if you get a dryad early and beatdown or play the tog game.

I think the draw enigne issue is already resolved though in night's whisper.

[BreathWeapon]

I've had problems with Duress as a disruption element, in that Gorilla Shaman is just better at what it does. Vs Combo, instead of removing a potential bomb with Duress it almost always seems better to hit their manabase instead, and vs Prison Moxen/Chalice removal is obviously some good. A few other problems I've encountered are having excess sorceries in hand, Dryad, Night Whispers, Serum Visions (I hate this card to) and Duress all tend to stick together. Also, I seem to want to play Misdirection over Duress a lot, despite being awful vs Prison Misdirection is very key for resolving Dryads vs Control. If the opponent can manage to Counter your first Dryad, it almost always seems like the match is all down hill from there. I guess Manadrain vs Counterspell isn't a big issue, atleast not one worth addressing.

At any rate, I've been thinking about Wastelands quite a bit. Their Tempo power is so tempting, and buying even a little time vs Combo is critical.
Oh, where do you stand on 2 Volcanics for Red? IMO, REB is awesome vs Draw 7 and HULK for GAT.

[Sean Ryan]

Please check my previous post for reference.  

How about this counter base:

4 FOW
3 Mana Drain
3 Misdirection
3 Duress

Moving Fact or Fiction to the SB.  This would be the strongest counter base in the metagame and would improve the match against combo and Workshop.

@ BreathWeapon
I'm testing Gorilla Shaman in the SB as I think it is better than Deed against Welder decks.  As far as Wasteland is concerned, it could be possible in the U/B/G version but not if you are running red and I think red>wasteland.

LMK what you think.

Sean

[Ultima]

The thing is that you don't need that many counters to get the job done.
You just want to stunt your opponent long enough before you go off with fastbond or beatdown.  You could have lots of counters but the right counterbase will achieve the same goals using less slots.

I tested wastelands in the past, and they just didn't do enough for me.  If the meta was as dragon and stompy infested as it once was, then maybe.  But right now, the gameplan against the top decks (Tog and 4CC) doesn't need to have wasteland to win.  Much the same reason why Tog doen't play wasteland anymore either.

If your so worried about combo, play the duress/drain/force counterbase and board REBs and shamans.  Shaman are a SB option but not really a MD choice because the deck is too slot tight.  This deck is more aggro based, its not like Tog in that respect with can run shaman MD over other control cards like deed or twist.

[alvin6688]

What exactly is Duress's role in GAT, besides against combo? Is it used to force through Dryads? It provides no real tempo in that, unlike countermagic, it doesn't force the opponent to use mana to cast the spell first.

Additionally, what are advantages and disadvantages between the two different styles of GAT (mainly sorcery-filled GAT with free counters, and instant card-draw GAT with Mana Drain)? In what type of metagame (control dominated, combo dominated, etc) would you use which GAT build?

Finally, a card that has recieved little mentioning is Cunning Wish. Back in old GAT's days, people (Smemmen, specifically) encouraged the use of only 1 Cunning Wish, assessing it as a "necessary evil". Most old GAT builds used 1 or 2 Wishes. Nowadays, most decklists have 2 or even 3 Cunning Wishes in them. How can a deck that is running on 20-21 (or sometimes even less) mana sources consistently cast Cunning Wish? Add to the fact that so many decks are using mana denial (Wasteland, Shaman, etc), and Cunning Wish just seems clunky many times.

For example, if an opponent successfully resolves a turn 1 Welder, and the only way to remove it is Cunning Wish --> something, how can you expect to be able to deal with that Welder in time, without either losing lots of early game beatdown opportunity or losing outright to Mindslaver or 7/10's fat? Against decks like Fish, how can you expect to resolve a Cunning Wish through barrages of land-kill and Daze and Spiketail Hatchling? Finally, what if you don't run Mana Drain?

My question is, at three mana, is Cunning Wish a great card, a necessary evil, or a crutch? And if it's one the last two, then why run 2-3 copies of it?

[Ultima]

Duress's role in GAT is exactly that of what Misdirection was in GAT.  Disruption to your opponent so that you can beatdown or combo out.  The format has adapted well to mis-d which is why duress is superior now.  If you compare the number of top decks duress is good against to something like mis-d, you'll see an obvious difference.  Duress gains tempo by debilitating your opponent 's tempo thereby allowing GAT to accelerate itself without interuption.

Cunning wish has always been a staple card in this deck just like Hulk.  The deck (at least ours) has never cut mana drain and cunning wish is not that difficult to cast.  The correct number is 2 though.

[Sean Ryan]

@ Ultima,

So, have you dropped Misdirection altogether?  I want to be able to run both Misdirection and Duress while not exceeding 12 counters.  I'm alternating which I want to run as a 2 of and which as a 3 of, keep in mind that I have been leaving an extra Dureess in the SB as well.  I don't need to preach to the choir on the streangth of Misdirection, especially in a metagame that has 4 hybrid control decks at the top half of the tier.

The other slots that have been bugging me are whether to MD Fact or Fiction and whether to run Mindtwist at all.  With 4 Night Whispers, Ancestral and Gush I feel a little light on powered draw.   I see alot of control so I like the Misdirections and Mindtwist but I'm questioning how optimal these choices are in a more diverse field or the "ideal" meta.  Although if I dropped down to a 11 counter base and then fit both Fact or Fiction and Mindtwist MD.

Oh yeah, I've been testing the Draw 7 match and its not as bad as some of you make it out to be.  Misdirection has actually helped me prevent an early Draw 7 from FOWilling through my defences.  Interestlingly, the games were either fairly quick with one of us comboing out or, they went a long time with GAT coming out on top due to superior draw.  Keep in mind though, these games were tested with the 13 counterspell base I proposed earlier, which enabled me to almost always win the early counter war.

I would love to see what some of your lists are looking like, and if your to paranoid about team secrecy PM me, I live in Seattle a T1 wasteland.

Thanks
Sean

[Ultima]

I think misdirection is an amazing card, but I just don't think the metagame is situated for it right now.  If you really want the 12 counters with mis-d's then i think they should be the 2 and duress the 3.

Personally as I said before, I think the right counterbase has 4 duress, 4 FOW and 3 mana drain.

I don't either FOF or Twist belongs in GAT, but I'd choose FOF first because I sb it all time and wish for it often enough.  Because GAT is more aggro-oriented, I think twist is not really a choice for this deck.  Other cards like regrowth are far more potent.

[Pest]

I agree whole-heartedly with Ultima, except for 1 thing. The meta most certainly is situated for Mis-D. It helps IMMENSELY in trying to get you to win counter wars, and with so many decks in the format playing Ancestral right now, you can never go wrong with a Mis-D on an Ancestral. I play a counter base of

4 FoW
3 Mana Drain
3 Duress
2 Mis-D

I think that is the the correct counter base. Duress is a wonderful card, but it's not worth taking out Mis-D altogether for 1 extra Duress.

[Ultima]

I actually ran this counterbase, above in the last tourny I played.  I did this in expectation of alot of Tog and 4CC.  The reason why I returned to my previous base, was because I found that this counterbase just wasn't consistent enough for what it was trying to do.

That is to say that 2 misdirection was not enough to make sure I got the recalls or twists thrown back for me or that duress was a consistent turn 1 play with 3.  Seeing as how duress is more situated for this metagame, I opted to go back to my previous counterbase.

[alvin6688]

If you compare the number of top decks duress is good against to something like mis-d, you'll see an obvious difference.

Ultima, in which matchups do you side out Duress (or in other words, which matchups is Duress not so great in)?

The problem I have with Duress is that it doesn't make your opponent lose a turn of mana. If you Daze or MisD something, you just bought an extra attack phase. With Duress, you nab something, and they still get to cast another threat/answer on their next turn, which you have to deal with. Do you find this a problem?

[Sean Ryan]

@ Pest,
I agree on your couterbase, it is what I have settled into.

@ Ultima,
Your right about 2 Misdirections not showing up enough but I have opted to run a 3rd in my SB mainly  for the control match.

Regrowth is taking the place of MD Fact or Fiction which is back in the SB and it is looking great so far.   GAT wants to use and abuse Ancestral Recall as quick and as many times as possible, Regrowth accomplishes this.  

Here is the SB I'm working on

1 Berserk
1 Oxidize
1 Artifact Mutation
1 Rack & Ruin
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Deed ???
2 REB
1 BEB
1 Misdirection
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Fire/Ice
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Coffin Purge
1 SECRET TECH !!!

I may cut the Fire/Ice for Firestorm if the FCG match becomes a problem.  Edict is there for Angels and Togs.  I question the Deed, its just such a warm cozy blanket I have a hard time letting it go but it may be better as a 2nd shaman or somthing else.

LMK what you think.

Thanks
Sean

[Ultima]

Duress is good

against-

Tog  
4CC
Control Slaver
7/10
Fish- (you can't mis-d their standstills which is where it really matters)

Bad against

FCG

Then there's the gray area where match ups like Stax, Workshop Slavery, Madness, and other things where duress is decent/bad but its better to have duress than misdirection.  You can even still duress FCG and take its first turn lotus or acceleration and have it be gamebreaking but misdirection is absolutely and totally dead versus some GAT's worst matchups like Stax, Slavery, and FCG where its not worth ir trying to mis-d that one ancestral while having 3 dead cards that could have already won you the game.