[Discussion] Gorilla Shaman, Crucible, and 4 Color Control

[Jhaggs]

For the past 2 weeks I have been steadily playing 4 Color Control (4cc or Germbus) after wanting to play something different than Hulk.  Exalted angel and Scrying are alot better than I had previously thought, especially scrying.  Draining a Trisk to then draw 6 is nice .  For the purposes of this thread I would like to focus on the two main deck slots reserved for Gorilla Shaman.  Here is a question that I would like to throw out:

"Is Gorilla Shaman in 4cc used primarily to hate Weld-able artifacts or is it viewed more as mana denial?"

I think the natural reaction to the question is that it does both.  However, in my experience Shaman plays a distinct role depending on its match up.  In match ups against Welder.dec Shaman's goal is more skewed towards making it harder to use Welder in conjunction with Thirst for knowledge by destroying 0 cc artifacts rather than denying mana.  Slavery decks are usually going to get their mana resources up and running regardless of what you do.  But taking out welding targets can be huge.  For the Hulk match up, Shaman is strictly denying access to more acceleration.  While on the surface Shaman is doing the same thing, it does appear that it is eating moxen for different reasons.  

So where is this all going?  Since I have been testing Germbus I have been looking at the leaking information from the 5th Dawn Spoiler for possible new tech.  Night's Whisper is interesting but scrying's instant speed is just too good.  I do keep coming back to Crucible of the Worlds.  Crucible is definitely test worthy inside 4cc because it does appear that it's functionality closely aligns with a lot of what Shaman is trying to do.  For me, my two toughest match ups with 4cc is the Slavery and the Hulk match up.  I'm sure my ability to win will increase with more testing but I am curious to see if adding a Crucible can improve my match ups.  In the MD I have been thinking:

1 Shaman
1 Crucible

I won't get into the ins and outs of crucible as several threads have discussed its ability already.  However, in a 4 color control deck I can see Crucible having alot of synergy with the decks overall control theme.  Also, I am still debating if the combination of Crucible/Shaman might be a more logical improvement for my tough match ups instead of just 2 shaman's.  Against Hulk, is it better to destroy the moxen or is it better to be able to consistantly destroy his lands?  Against Slavery, is it better to pack 2 shamans for maximum moxen hate or are you better served by consistantly hating his lands?

This is a purely hypothetical thread being as 5th D has yet to be released.  However, I do think we can still discuss Shaman's role to see if Crucible is test worthy in a Shaman slot.  If shaman's main goal is to deny mana then perhaps Crucible might be able to do this more effectively.  If Shaman's main goal is to deny weld-able artifacts than perhaps crucible's abilities are too limited.

[Zherbus]

It's not that easy because a turn 1 Shaman is a win against so much that crucible is not. I really think that Crucible would likely augment Shamans role, not replace it. My prediction for the card is that it will be about as useful as Isochron Scepter.

[paradigm]

In response to your question, the answer is that the one-drop Shaman is now used primarily to swing the Slaver matchup.

While it can play a role in mana denial, that remains a secondary effect - against Hulk, Shaman will only have an effect if the Hulk player keeps a moxen plus one land hand - and even then, they have time to draw out of it - Shaman will not prevent them from attaining the turn two Intuition on you which is the problem - although you could try to prevent their mana later on in the game, it doesn't prevent them from getting a boost out of that acceleration. It is for this reason that Hulk Smash will side out Shamans in the mirror - it does not achieve a large enough effect. It's currently all about Slaver.

Against Hulk it's far better to hate lands - particularly to stop green since most builds will only run two tropical islands (plus the mox and lotus). But against Slaver, not as much as the moxen hate helps you reduce the threat of Welders, which is integral in trying to stay in the matchup - having more Shamans - either pre or post-board becomes a big swing in the match.

However Crucible may yet have a role in 4c control, but that has yet to be seen. At this juncture the question is "what will you take out for it?" along with "will it provide a large enough swing as a 1-of to make it worth it" - as it is a card that takes time to work It's not great as a two-drop or three-drop ( unless you have Drain mana up).

My prediction for the card is that it will be about as useful as Isochron Scepter.

But for now, with Control Slaver being one of the decks to beat, of not the one, Shaman is the appropriate answer

[Phele]

What about exchanging one Wasteland with Crucible. Couldn't this help to improve both: Your mana denial route - for what you just need one wasteland or even better a strip mine with an crucible out - as well as your defense against mana denial by your opponent.

[PucktheCat]

My prediction for the card is that it will be about as useful as Isochron Scepter.

Of course, Scepter has fallen completely out of favor at least in part because of Null Rod, which doesn't affect Crucible.

The two cards do seem to be roughly comparable.  Both work in combination with a good chunk of already playable cards, both provide a fairly potent effect if you get them working.  Isochron is generally a stronger effect I think, but it costs mana to use and sets you up for a possible two-for-one.  Crucible may be weaker, but doesn't set you up for a two-for-one or cost mana to use.

This card does seem like it could find a place somewhere, but it may not do so for a while, possibly after the artifact metagame has died down somewhat.

Leo

[KSesler]

My choice would to use one Crucible and one Shaman.

Doing so enormously increases the land destruction aspect of Germbus/Keeper.

Against Control Slaver, the already effective strategy of attacking lands that are red mana sources becomes even stronger.

Against nearly any control deck, the increased ability to get rid of LOAs will help.

Against decks that are somewhat light on lands already, you will be further able to exploit an opponents weakness.

In addition to the Crucible, I think another worthy addition to the sideboard will be Beacon of Immortality.
This will increase synergy with the Scryings, and help in general in matchups against Aggro.

[AIcOPed]

I am currently running 5 color build w/ CoW proxied. I run 1 gorilla shaman (my only red maindeck card), and i did take out one wasteland and put in an extra fetchland (I run five). I run the CoW in place of one of my maindeck DoJ that I used to run. The reason I play green is to regrowth my DoJ if I had to cycle it early(or regrowth my ancestrall if not), and for fastbond.

[Matt]

Crucible is a lot more bomb-y than Scepter, especially in the control mirror. If one player gets Crux-Waste going, it becomes incredibly hard to lose, and every turn that goes by makes it harder and harder to break the lock. If a  Crux resolves, you almost HAVE to have the Disenchant (or Wish or whatever) right now, because each turn you're going to have one less mana to work with.

Contrast this with Scepter - it's very easy to just ignore Scepter-imprinting-brainstorm and run over it with your own draw spells (Tog's AK especially), and very easy to play around Scepter-imprinting-manadrain. Throw in the fact that Crucible is Rod-proof and that it complements the Shamans you should already be running and I would say that it's MUCH stronger than Scepter (it's not great versus aggro, but aggro usually runs Rod anyway so neither is Scepter).

[Zherbus]

I know the merits of getting a timely CoW online, Matt. I'm just saying I'm skeptical of it actually doing much more in the vintage metagame than Scepter did. I'm saying, albeit a potentially great card - utilizing it isn't going to be as simple as throwing it into 4cControl and calling it a day.

[Matt]

I wasn't trying to be pedantic, just laying out some of the non-obvious facets of playing with Crucible. Not everyone analyzes things as well as you!

it isn't going to be as simple as throwing it into 4cControl and calling it a day.

That's definitely true. The trickiest thing I've found is trying to balance the right number of Wastes to go with the Crucible - because if/when Crux hits play, extra Wastes are dead cards. On the other hand, if you get the soft lock going, you're doing so well that you can probably afford to draw a few dead cards. It's a puzzlement.

[rozetta]

Initial thoughts were that, what with CoW, you could cut a waste or two and just add more search/card draw (perhaps impulse-like search) to balance out the situation. You'd get to dig for a waste if needed (either because you desperately need to get rid of a specific land, or because you played CoW) or dig for a tutor/CoW if you're in a position where that interaction would greatly swing the game.

There's, however, a further dilemma which is that normally you want to see wastes pretty early in the game and probably don't want to tap out or spend time digging for them. This is another fine balance.

It seems to me that either Impulse or some sort of cheap digging cantrip would be worth running (maybe as a 2-of) as a complement to the CoW/strip plan.

[Dozer]

Eyes of the Watcher might fulfill this role and provide searching synergy, by being able to dispose of unwanted Wastelands. I have not tested something yet, so I'll probably call back later. However, Crucible might be the most potent sideboard card against Landstill I have seen so far, because it is not symmetrical.

Dozer

[MaxxMatt]

I think that the intriguing aspect of playing CoW in the side of a control deck, as another weapon to use in the control mirror ( any control deck can die to the CoW-Waste route ), is that the opponent have to add useless/subpar cards in a matchup where siding in/out dead cards is THE KEY to win.

Opponent can't easily rely on Wishing for Removals because, during  game 2 and 3, it may be too slow and too conuterable to be the right choice.

Opponent have to side in ReBs and Disenchants and "Bombs" ( if he have them in side ), and it take a lot of space to be done. Usually space is the only thing that I not have when deciding what I have to side In/Out.

Opponent can have MORE dead timed draws than before. And usually some tutors are sided out ( Mystical and Vamp ) because they produce card disadvantage; the last statement improve the randomness of adding cards that could be drawn, maybe.., too late.


Jayemdae Tome/Scrying Glass usually where used to produce permanent cards advantage.
CoW is Permanents Advantage that can easily be translated, in a middle-log term game, to a Cards Advantage if we count all the umplayble cards in the opponent's hand as "+1" for us.
And compared to the Old Tomes it is better because it DOESN'T COST any mana to be used once resolved.
So, in a different but MORE efficient way CoW achieve their same goal: With your better mana development you can be able to do more things than your opponent and it is usually a victory strategy.

This is one of the reasons because I'm doing some space in my side and trade for 2 foiled CoW

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I think that playing 1 Shaman and 1 CoW maindeck is a bad Idea.
Two Shamans are in for a specifc porpouse. To consistently stop the opponent's fast mana development.

If you resolve CoW when Slavery or Storm.dec try to win it couldbe useless. The Shaman alone could usually be the best play to do in this situations

-CoW requires that I have to Tap3Mana with Sorcery Speed agaisnt a possibly unknown opponent or agaisnt an opponent that can superpass his LD effect with ease.

-I have to stop artifact's recursion and fast mana to be able to deal with Storm.dec and with MW.dec. Shaman is the second best spell available for acquiring this thing. The first is Null Rod. In this situations CoW is one of the "so so" spells of the deck.
 
-Aggro and Combo can use lands OneShot and produce brokeness and lethal damage with great consistency, expecially thanx to their fast mana. So Shaman are great choices and cannot be replaced with CoW.

The last point underline ( IMHO ) that the nature of this card is GAME BREAKING expecially ( if not only ) for the control mirror matchup. Definitively a Sideboard Card, even for 4C-Control deck.

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The dilemma of the CoW-Strips rate is difficult to explain ( expecially with my english ... ).

I think that smart player can force you to lose land drops and use 2 recurring strips effects on his own Fetchland. This is a smart move IMHO that can be easily prevented if ALL the available Strips Effects are present in the Deck.

IMHO, 5 Strips and 2 CoW, in a POST side scenario, is the correct number to play.

I played, during this week, against 'Comboish' versions of CoW.dec. They are patetic because all your fast mana acceleration is ( at least for the versions agaisnt which I played ) totally untouched and this let you continue to play a bit.

Analyzing a possible 5Strips+2Shaman+2CoW scenario, I think that this handicap is easily superpassed. Until now, 4C-Control is one of the best ( only???) candidate to play this configuration, expecially because we doesn't need to create a different deck that can abuse of CoW.


I think that Draining a 2cc spell to try to resolve a CoW on your 3rd turn agaisnt control with some mana open for other tricks, is the best NOTbroken-NOTrestricted-involved play of this deck.

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There will be times and gamse when the complete set of FoWs could be sided out to do space for more useful and sinergic cards...

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