[T1]Keeper-Oath - what can I improve?

[MatzeXXL]

What can I improve in this deck?
What do you think about its strategy? I think especially vs Aggro it is very strong , the sort of decks of which most control habe problems with.....

Its basically a Keeper with a few Oath elements what should solve the big Problems against all Aggro decks (apart from Affinity but i have a sideboard)

The biggest problems are against no-creature control decks, so I have to focus on this. So Put in mandlands, Questing Pheldas to trigger my Oath, Morphling against StoP.

I put in only hard-castable creatures to be able to go against control without Oathing.


4 City of Brass
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
1 Gemstone Mine

1 Strip Mine
1 Library
3 Mishra's Factory

1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet ---->26 Mana

4 Oath of Druids

4 Force of Will
2 Mana Drain
2 Counterspell

4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Skeletal Scrying

1 Mind Twist

1 Gaeas Blessing

1 Cunning Wish

1 Yawgmoths Will

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor

1 Balance
1 Swords to Plowshares

1 Pernicious Deed

2 Questing Pheldagriff
1 Exalted Angel
1 Morphling


SB:

1 Stifle
1 Funeral Pyre
1 Counterspell
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Berserk
1 Hurkyls Recall
2 Tsabo's Web
2 Tormods Crypt
1 Disenchant
2 Arcane Laboratory
2 Null Rod

[goober]

I think that you should use Duress over Counterspell, because it is a lot more helpful versus the combo decks, because you might not get a chance to get to UU.  Also I would trade the Morphling and StP for a second and third Cunning Wish, then stock up the sideboard with utility.  but then again I am no expert at Keeper.

[xrizzo]

Duress over counterspell.  MisD over counterspell.  

Why run oath?  Exalted angel is not hard to cast normally...  Neither is Tog.  The colossus is really the only creature you want to be oathed out...

I would play a more traditional keeper build, or a more traditional Tog build.  (i know that isnt oath - but there is a reason oath isnt played)

Good luck.

[MatzeXXL]

What is to say against the Oath?
It gives me the creature I want very fast and without paying a casting cost (if the enemy casts creatures).
I have Mana Free for other things like countering.

So it makes the deck much more effective against Aggro.

And the full grave (through Oath) makes my Atog a real killer

[MooSE]

Since the creature you get is pretty random, i would think you would only have one creature in there (one creature, more than one copy).  I would go with the tog, since you can kill the next turn with it.  Then, go with a SB funeral pyre to wish for, and give them a creature.  Of course, with those changes, what would make it any better than a tog or hulk deck?

[paradigm]

More likely than not, it seems the best thing you can do is to take a long, hard evaluation of this deck and decide whether this is better than 4C Control (which this has the skeleton of) before you decide to stick with the Oath concept and tweak that.

[Loci]

I think you should go dedicated with just the Colossus and another win, like Decree of Justice. This frees up slots and takes out the random factor of the creature. Two Colossus should be enough since it shuffles back. You could up the Cunning Wish count and put Berserk in the Sideboard and finish it off quite nicely once you get one into play.
Off course, if you go this route, you would probably want to take out City of Brass as well since they probably hurt too much combined with Skeletal Scrying and without Exalted Angel. But since you have no red anyway this should be much of a problem.

I like the strategy (I have somthing simular) but I think you'd want to play more like control in most non-aggro match ups and this might be difficult with your current list. Versus aggro it is a killer.

Good luck.

[MatzeXXL]

Funeral Pyre is a good Idea.

The Strip mine and Kor Haven could improve my matchup vs. Control (kill Library, stop manlands or fatties)

And the problems in the mirror match can be resolved by putting out the Oaths vs. Landstill and vs. Normal control they can stay inside.....the normal Keeper plays Decree or Exalted and that will make me Oath.

I played a few times with the deck (maybe 15 or 20 games) and it is very well also against Landstill (with Tsabos Web and more StoP from the SB out in).

Most unsure i am about the creaturebase but what i will definitely NOT go for is only Colossus because then I have to rely too much on my Oath.

Morphling is very good against control (StoP), Colossus vs. decks with Diabolic Edict and Angel can save my ass.

Maybe I throw the Tog out, i dont like him too much anyway mostly when i cant Oath my grave will be too empty to make him a real killer.

Decklist modified.

[Daniel_112]

Morphling is very good against control (StoP), Colossus vs. decks with Diabolic Edict and Angel can save my ass.

If Colossus is your only creature you still need to sac it against a diabolic edict. Anywayz, which deck do you see often on tournaments that plays edicts?

And why don't you have any red elemental blast in your sb? I think you really haven't got a good matchup against control. And you could improve that with REB.

[MatzeXXL]

Colossus reshuffles that did I mean.

vs. Control I think my deck has good chances because its nearly like a normal keepr with some modifications so this will be a mirror match. Side out Colossus and Oaths, REB in (i can add it to SB) and a few StoPs.....
Why should my matchup be bad, explain me that!

I dont play on tournaments I want to build a deck which has good matchup against most number of decks.
And against aggro its very good (Madness, TnT, WelderDecks etc.) the only problematic decks are like Masque (have to counter the Mask or Disenchant or Deed it), Landstill (Side Web in) and Control (which is a mirror nearly).

And even Control plays creatures so Oath is not not useful.....

And BTW each Atog deck has the same problems like Swords, Edicts or something. Dont know why Atog decks dont play Oath......

Its a blast against Aggro and the grave is full.....

[Timewalker]

Wow great thread! Just to share some ideas out there, here is the current keeper-oath i am running, its gotten me 3 t8 finishes at a few tournies.

3 Wastelands - hate those manlands
1 strip mine - see above
4 Flooded strand - Gotta have that right secondary color
2 Polluted delta - See aBove
4 Tropical islands - Hmm, i think oath needs green to cast
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic - for my Sb (but am considering dumping this color)
2 Underground seas - Gotta Tutor for those answers!

4 Brainstorms - Great with all the reshuffle in the deck
4 oath of druids - I eat aggro decks for lunch!
4 Force of Will - never leave home w/o 'em
4 Counterspells - don't own drains, otherwise would play pure keeper
2 Gaea's blessing - For that wonderful reshuffle!
1 Akroma - The BABE! Will race most aggro in my experience
1 Darksteel 11/11 Monster of a beatstick! - nuff said, 2 turn clock ( used to be morphling but he was too slow a clock)

2 Cunning Wish -  this is a keeper deck ain't it?
2 Iso Scepters - Shades from old iso-keeper builds, not bad
1 Balance - Hmm.. i'll be left with Akroma and you'll be left with what?
1 Enlghtened T - Gotta find those oaths
1 Ancestral recall - Duh!
1 mystical T - gotta find that ancestral!
1 Regrowth - gott regrow that ancestral!
1 Fact or fiction - Hey it's not bad!
1 Vampiric T - Gotta find whatever, too bad it hurts, (am thinking of moving it to the SB like other Keepers)
1 Demonic T- Gotta find whatever w/o the pain.   :lol:
1 Swords to plowshares - Best removal in the game (am thinking of adding 1 more MD)
1 Fire/Ice - FUN fun fun with the scepters. Will have to go though, if i dump red
1 Sol Ring - Great for times when i had to hard cast Akroma
1 Lotus petal - Gotta smoothen out that mana
1 Zuran Orb - sometimes i need a little time to out race aggro, i normally tutor for it right after i get the oath on the board when Life is low.

SB: (Haven't fixed it up after replacing maindeck morphling yet)

1 Swords to plowshares
1 Hurkyll's recall
1 Sphere of law
1 Heoroes' reunion - gotta love it when it's on a stick!
1 Blue E
1 Coffin purge
1 Stifle
1 Disenchant
2 Red E
2 Rack and Ruin
1 Woodripper - i used to lose to MUD, he's new
1 Ray of revelation
1 morphling

Here it is. Just thought i'd share my build.  

[paradigm]

Dont know why Atog decks dont play Oath......

Its a blast against Aggro and the grave is full.....

On an aside: While aggro my be the threat in your meta, it's important to remember that control slaver, the mirror, and fish are the matchups Tog decks must consider. Oath looks good only versus Fish, and to even say that is untrue - they can the capability not only to play around it but to smash you with it as well. Against aggro the strongest thing to do for Tog to hit the board, get mad and swing, and there really isn't such thing as an aggro metagame right now in a powered field.

If you're going to stick with Oath, why not use the Landstill formula (RGU) with manlands? Otherwise if you drop an Oath and nothing happens, well, it's going to be a long game (you have nothing to force them to play creatures - and it's difficult to get one out early consistantly as well - it helps reduce dead cards to have the manlands available as opposed to drawing a creature than having dead oaths. Time Walk also has been disrupting that strategy - thus if one is to go for it, you must either dedicate more, or none at all for it to be effective, even versus aggro (remember that Madness has Wonder, FCG has its combo, TnT has Duplicant (which simply owns here), as do Welder decks, and Landstill does have have to counter Oath, so it can expend its energy with your Tsabo's Web)

And remember that it's not as simple as dropping Oath early - you simply can't gurantee that, and it becomes obsolete should you stick with the 4C plan and drop an Angel - creating dead cards, as opposed to just Landstill-Oath.

 Just a thought, since you seem to place a high reliance on Oath.

[Covetous]

So, remind me why you don't want to play either keeper or oath?  Yes, an Oath can help you to power out uncastable creatures, but what do you do against decks which do not need creatures to win?  Where does your pressure come from?  Do you think the lone cunning wish will be able to fetch the funeral pyre from the board in time to save you versus a deck that can win turn 2-4 consistently?  If you are running exalted and morphling or whatever why not just hard-cast them?  Is that really so hard?  You don't need colossus to win--it's just as susceptible to STP as anything else (except morphling, ravenous baloth, etc...) and can't be hard-cast.  I guess I don't see the point of running this version over a more standard UG or UGB oath deck using only creatures that can disappear (morphling, ravenous baloth, spike weaver) and gaea's blessing to re-cycle your deck (hmmm I wouldn't mind casting ancestral recall 6 times in one game, would you?).  The argument for the UG version, which is obvionsly less broken, is to run MD back to basics to whoop up on decks packing manlands.  You can still run powder keg to sweep the board.  Also, it allows for a more stable manabase, which is very good for a deck that likes its waselands and hates opposing ones.  

But anyway if you really want to continue with this deck (and if it's working for you, why not?) then one suggestion I would make is Phantom Nishoba.  It's on-color and eats aggro decks for lunch.  It's not hasty like Akroma, but a 7/7 trampling lifegainer is pretty good once it hits the table I hear.  Also, I would try to up your cunning wish count to 3 to enable you to get and use one to funeral pyre without using up your only wish.  Kor haven might be neat, but the deck needs colored mana so I think it must go.  Running more STP (at least one more) would also be good.  I think you should consier running the gaea's blessing engine as well.  And city of brass + skeletal scrying is not your friend.  I'm not sure if you need 26 sources, so you might consider cutting 4 CoB for 2 duals and 2 more useful cards (inexpensive ones).  Yawgwill is also not helpful if you intend to run blessing, which by the way is excellent vs. dragon if they pack laquatus as their main/only kill.

[MatzeXXL]

The Manlands are THE idea ive looked for !! Hit like in Landstill and no creatures to block them.....

Standstill could also work well!

But i dont really get the problems you are talking about.
When I put in the Manlands and my enemy plays Tog-Deck, its fine, I can beat him or he plays Tog and i can Oath.

Fish: Youre joking? If he plays his creatures i can Oath and maybe drop Balance or Deed.
Madness: Oathing for sure.

Aggro is not my threat my threat are mostly controlish decks like Keeper and Lanstill and Decks like Affinity.
But against all these types Oath is good imo.

Why should Landstill counter Oath??

Please give me some real situations in which my strategy could be bad!!!
I dont see real problems for this deck because against all Aggro dropping an early Oath IS the way to go and against more controlish decks the strategy also (could, if i draw no bul*sh*t) pay off because the enemy MUST drop a creature to win , if not i can manland him.....

On an aside: While aggro my be the threat in your meta, it's important to remember that control slaver, the mirror, and fish are the matchups Tog decks must consider. Oath looks good only versus Fish, and to even say that is untrue - they can the capability not only to play around it but to smash you with it as well. Against aggro the strongest thing to do for Tog to hit the board, get mad and swing, and there really isn't such thing as an aggro metagame right now in a powered field.

If you're going to stick with Oath, why not use the Landstill formula (RGU) with manlands? Otherwise if you drop an Oath and nothing happens, well, it's going to be a long game (you have nothing to force them to play creatures - and it's difficult to get one out early consistantly as well - it helps reduce dead cards to have the manlands available as opposed to drawing a creature than having dead oaths. Time Walk also has been disrupting that strategy - thus if one is to go for it, you must either dedicate more, or none at all for it to be effective, even versus aggro (remember that Madness has Wonder, FCG has its combo, TnT has Duplicant (which simply owns here), as do Welder decks, and Landstill does have have to counter Oath, so it can expend its energy with your Tsabo's Web)

And remember that it's not as simple as dropping Oath early - you simply can't gurantee that, and it becomes obsolete should you stick with the 4C plan and drop an Angel - creating dead cards, as opposed to just Landstill-Oath.

 Just a thought, since you seem to place a high reliance on Oath.

[Timewalker]

Manlands in the deck is a good idea, but the oath deck will no longer be able to sustain a lot of colors.  What colors do you recommend? (aside from UG of course). There's an oath-still thread in the budget forum for some reference if anyone's interested. i feel it needs a lot more work though.  I really believe in gaea's blessing in an oath deck. There's nothing better than renewable resources.  :lol:  How about the SB, any suggestions?

[xrizzo]

When I put in the Manlands and my enemy plays Tog-Deck, its fine, I can beat him or he plays Tog and i can Oath.

Or he drops Tog, casts timewalk, and 'just wins' the next turn.

How does this deck handle belcher, draw7, dragon, or TPS?  Or does it just roll over?  I see you have 8 counters, which is good, but your win conditions don't seem playable outside of oath...

[MatzeXXL]

When I put in the Manlands and my enemy plays Tog-Deck, its fine, I can beat him or he plays Tog and i can Oath.

Or he drops Tog, casts timewalk, and 'just wins' the next turn.

How does this deck handle belcher, draw7, dragon, or TPS?  Or does it just roll over?  I see you have 8 counters, which is good, but your win conditions don't seem playable outside of oath...

Tog: He has no trample i will block it.
        Ok you can say Cunning Wish for berserk but then I can say   "Counterspell" its an endless game. Or Swords. There are some things I can do about this.


Against Belcher : Counter the Belcher maybe ?   Or use his Welders for my Oath. Stifle SB?

Draw 7: Feldons Cane? Counterspells?

Dragon: Counterspells, Tormods Crypt and Maybe playing some Duress.

TPS: ????lol, counter the Tendrils? Use Angel to get more then 20 life?

Dont want to sound arrogant but this deck can provide a lot of answers imo

[xrizzo]

Countering Tendrils stops 2 damage.

Your gameplan against these decks seems a bit weak.  You have shown examples of how you might slow down the decks mentioned above - but your measly counerspell isn't going to do it alone.  You have to be able to get a win condition on the board - and actually win.  If you can't oath, which none of these decks will let you, then how do you cast colossus?  Wait 7-8 turns for 11 mana and double counter backup?  You just don't have that kind of luxury.

Take this deck to a tourney, write a report, and we will see how it goes...  in an aggro heavy meta, I don't doubt this deck is solid...

[MatzeXXL]

double post, sorry

[MatzeXXL]

Ok, so what would be your suggestions against these decks??

More Manlands? Only Psychatog as creature? Or Angel? Acrane Laboratory vs Tendrils? Questing Pheldagriff as the main creature?

Other hints?

[Bobduh]

You should have creatures that are castable outside of oath, but much accelerated by the oath (such as the angel... although that's really fast anyway. But hey, we're sticking with the oath theme here). Against any of those combo/control decks, you need to be able to control the combo and aggro the control- meaning more disruption, and more realistic offensive stuff. Drop the collosus- there's no way you'll be able to cast that in any realistic match.

[kirdape3]

How about playing a good deck, like 4c Control (without Oath - it's basically 'I have an Exalted Angel backed by mana denial').  Oath of Druids is a wasted draw against a control deck piloted by anyone even remotely competent at the game of Magic.  Not to mention the combo decks that do exist and will just eventually realize that you're mana limited and just blow you away.

Oath was good in Extended where there weren't any real control decks otherwise.  It however doesn't translate.

[Loci]

Most unsure i am about the creaturebase but what i will definitely NOT go for is only Colossus because then I have to rely too much on my Oath.

And that is the problem. You want a Control deck with an Oath stuffed into it. IMHO your list has too much of both, so you'd need to dedicate more of your deck to either.

I do not understand why you would have to rely too much on Oath if you would runs just Colossus? If you would leave out things like Decree of Justice, than yes, but it is not what I suggested.

[MatzeXXL]

@Timewalker: Where is this Oath thread i cant find it?


I want for sure a deck WITH Oath in it no matter what you say about it.
It works extremely well and apart from the 4 Oath cards its a completely normal Keeper so come on if this deck cant handle a Problem Keeper also cant.....

Against all control decks (WITHOUT CREATURES, normal Keeper MUST play a creature to win) I have either to hardcast them or forcing them to have creatures.
And for this i will put in the Questing Pheldagriff.
It is a very strong creature in Oath, against normal Aggro its a not so good creature, i could imagine better ones because i WILL Oath but against any non-creature control decks it is very good.

Apart from this I have Funeral Pyre in my SB.

Some Manlands main, this all should be enough.

I am not saying its the best deck in the world now , maybe it is....  <--honour over me but its very strong against all Aggro and the Vs-Control-Problems should be solved the best a Keeper can.

So dont tell me about the weaknesses of Oath in every fuc*ing case but give me hints how to improve it!
Not all theory, some real hints please!

Decklist actualized

[Dozer]

MatzeXXL wrote:
When I put in the Manlands and my enemy plays Tog-Deck, its fine, I can beat him or he plays Tog and i can Oath.

Or he drops Tog, casts timewalk, and 'just wins' the next turn.

He does not even need Timewalk - he can let you Oath, then go for Berserk and trample over anything you might have Oathed up. (And yes, I know you have counters, but so has he, and he draws more cards.)

Against all control decks (WITHOUT CREATURES, normal Keeper MUST play a creature to win) I have either to hardcast them or forcing them to have creatures.
And for this i will put in the Questing Pheldagriff.
It is a very strong creature in Oath, against normal Aggro its a not so good creature, i could imagine better ones because i WILL Oath but against any non-creature control decks it is very good.

Apart from this I have Funeral Pyre in my SB.

I had brought up the suggestion of a Keeper-Oath-Hybrid in my team a while ago, but we dismissed it after a few initial thoughts.  I had not thought about Funeral Pyre, which surely is a idea, but still. We decided that dedicating 6-8 slots to an engine that works only against certain decks and win conditions that cannot be hardcast is worse than playing straight 4c-Control.

However, you wanted suggestions for improvement, and I'll give you one that has been hinted at before (and you did so yourself): Play Psychatog as sole win condition, maybe in combination with one Colossus. After Oath, Tog is a one-hit win as long as you can remove all blockers or give him Trample, which can be achieved either through Berserk or through (don't laugh) Vorrac Battlehorns. Sadly, there is no flashback spell to give Trample. This also gives you the possibility to go with an early Tog. (Again, the question arises why you should play Oath when you can go Hulk, but you want them...)

I am not saying its the best deck in the world now , maybe it is....  <--honour over me but its very strong against all Aggro and the Vs-Control-Problems should be solved the best a Keeper can.

Actually, no. Against Control, "Keeper" has way less dead cards, which is a MAJOR problem for an Oath deck. 4cControl only has 4, maybe 5 slots for their win condition, whereas you have 4 (Oath) + 4-5 (creatures) + 1-2 (Funeral Pyre). Drawing an Oath which could have been a counter or a draw spell or a tutor or whatever reduces your chances of winning. You must realize that you don't need to Oath up a creature against Control because it makes no difference if you cast it instead. Yes, Oath spares you the casting cost. That is about the only thing it does.

If your control opponent just sits back and lets you do your thing, you will have spent a lot of resources (cast Oath, cast Phelddagrif or Funeral Pyre), only to have the creature you oathed up negated by one card (StP, Balance, REB). Also, if you spend the effort to make a creature via Oath, your opponent might just lay an Angel afterwards and race you, which he can do with every creature apart from an immediately lethal Tog.

And he will most likely win the counter war over his Angel, because he has spent less resources than you did at this point. I think that Oath is no better choice versus any aggro-deck than 4cControl is, but it is worse against Control decks. I ask you to make a comprehensive list of all advantages KeeperOath has over 4cControl (or Hulk, if you will), so that we can debate further. I just don't see the point of playing a suboptimal deck with the same core as a better variant.

Also, after the first game, your opponent will play around the Oath with ease. A transformational sideboard might be in order...
In an earlier post, you mention that you would side out your Oaths. The problem is that this leaves you in a worse position than 4cControl, because then they will have the better hardcastable creatures unless you transform into Hulk and build your maindeck accordingly (AKs, Intuition, maybe Deep Analysis), which might actually be the best way to use Oath at the moment.

I dont play on tournaments I want to build a deck which has good matchup against most number of decks.
And against aggro its very good (Madness, TnT, WelderDecks etc.) the only problematic decks are like Masque (have to counter the Mask or Disenchant or Deed it), Landstill (Side Web in) and Control (which is a mirror nearly).

This (taken from an earlier post of MatzeXXL) contradicts itself. You say Oath is good against aggro (which we all agree to) but bad against aggro-combo, aggro-control and control... and you want a good matchup against most decks?

Summary:
- If you want to play a good Oath-based deck, go with Psychatogs and one Colossus.
- I value your opinion, so please tell me clear and pointed: Where is Oath superior to 4cControl (which it is based on)?

Dozer

[stallymcstallstall]

how do you own tog or keeper?
i have a lot of problems even though i have 9 counters.  i'm currently boarding 4 chains, and i still get owned.  pretty much let's face it, you have no draw engine vs keeper (brainstorms and FoF vs brainstorms and scryings) and the same vs tog (brainstorms and FoF vs brainstorms and ak and da and duress).  again, what do you do?