Suicide GAT - Fifth Dawn's new monster

[Eastman]

Serum Visions - U
Sorcery
Draw a card
Scry: 2

Night's Whisper - 1B
Sorcery
You draw 2 cards and you lose 2 life


It's strikingly clear that the biggest benefactor of the new cards cycling in with Fifth Dawn is the Gro-A-Tog archetype.

Considering GAT's recent strong showings in tournaments and history of doing well in large events it seems that the suicide GAT build incorporating the new Night's Whisper and Serum Visions will be a monster in the summer convention meta.  Discussion in the Open forum has already demonstrated the intense community interest in the deck, and it is appropriate that a thread be opened in this forum.

I had not intended to bring my discussion of this archetype here, but I'm extremely encouraged by the quality of the discussion ongoing in the Hulk thread and the recent work with Germbus being unleashed on this site, so I'm hopeful that something can come of this conversation.


The new toys GAT receives are both sorceries, so the deck won't want to keep mana untapped into its opponent's main phases, meaning Mana Drain is out.

The number and quality of these cheap draw spells also means we can move down towards the number of sources used in 4-Gush GAT. In fact, I will take a 4-Gush GAT build as a starting point for this discussion.

THIS WILL BE BRAND NEW WORK, I'M LOOKING TO HEAR FROM ALL OF YOU.

As a group perhaps we can optimize this list.


Disruption:
4-Gush GAT had it's own debates on what disruption should be run. There's no question that

+4 Force of Will

should be included. Most of the old GAT lists also ran at least

+3 Misdirection

so we will start with that as well. The other thing people used were a combination of Daze and Duress. I'm not sure which way to go on this, so I'm going to use a few of each. Considering Keeper is a force in the meta and Duress is just stronger than Daze against Keeper, I'll start with

+3 Duress
+2 Daze

The Draw Package:
This will need a lot of testing as well. There's no doubt we're including
+4 Brainstorm
but as far as the new card drawers I'm not sure. It seems likely we'll want
+4 Night's Whisper
because the card is overtly powerful. I'm also going to start with
+4 Serum Visions
because it's new and past discussions seem to put it above sleight and opt. For now I will leave out Accumulated Knowledge, as it is weakest early when GAT needs to develop a lead.

+1 Gush
and
+1 Ancestral Recall
go without saying.

I went with exactly 14 draw spells because the old 4-Gush GAT lists ran with 14 (4 Gush, 3 Sleight, 4 Brainstorm, 2 Merchant Scroll, 1 Ancestral) and that seems to be the best starting point for this new archetype.

The Kill: is another question. We will definitely use
+4 Quirion Dryad
but there is some question as to how many psychatogs we want. Anywhere between 2 and 4 were used in 4-Gush GAT builds. We'll play it safe and use
+3 Psychatog

The Tutors
+1 Demonic Tutor
+1 Mystical Tutor
+1 Vampiric Tutor
+2 Cunning Wish

seem appropriate. This deck might want Merchant Scroll, I'm not sure. That needs to be determined. Room for Merchant Scroll could be found by toying with the draw package.

Broken:
+1 Yawgmoth's Will
+1 Time Walk

go without saying.

The Mana:
With Serum Visions backing up Brainstorm we can go to 20 lands or below with this deck (4-Gush GAT was often played with only 18). For now I'm going to play it safe with 20. I'll use
+5 Moxen
because the extra colorless now feeds Night's Whisper. The necessary additional lands are
+4 Tropical Island
+4 Underground Sea
+5 Blue Fetch
+1 LoA
which are also up for discussion. Then of course there is
+1 Black Lotus
which is not.


AGAIN THIS IS FAR FROM FINAL

with your help I see this deck becoming quite strong. So far in testing it has played very well.

This leaves us with an initial list of :

12 Disruption
4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection
3 Duress
2 Daze


13 Draw
4 Brainstorm
4 Night's Whisper
4 Serum Visions
1 Gush

5 Tutors
1 Demonic
1 Mystical
1 Vampiric
2 Cunning Wish

7 Creatures:
4 Quirion Dryad
3 Pyschatog

3 Broken:
1 Yawg Will
1 Ancestral
1 Time Walk


20 Mana
4 U. Sea
4 Trop. Island
5 Blue Fetch
1 LoA
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus

with a thrown together SB (It will need to be made after much testing) of the basics:
SB:
1 Berserk
1 Naturalize
1 BEB
1 Smother
1 FoF
etc.

HERE IS
What I'd like you all to do: go through my discussion and pick out pieces and argue about the logic, or perhaps expound on things. I'll edit good comments into the thread. Eventually we'll have some idea how we want the deck to look. Then we can work on the sideboard.

If I haven't made myself clear, this is a thread where I want to hear all your thoughts and comments on everything to do with Suicide GAT right now.

[Kowal]

If you're going for the early strengths GAT has, I don't think you can really go without a Fastbond.  Even with only one Gush, it allows you to do a lot of retarded things and grow that Dryad really, really fast/early.  In addition, it makes Daze not affect your tempo at all, and only screw with the opponent.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I don't think you can really go without a Fastbond

I would go further and say its almost as essential as time walk to this build.

Also, while many comparisons to early GAT can be made (its goldfish is perhaps a half to full turn slower), one glaring weakness exists that the original didn't have to worry about: susceptibility to strip effects.  Where as fetchlands and Gush were enough to protect a 3-4 color manabase with only 18-20 sources, the current incarnation really needs more if you plan on facing fish, 4cc, and aggro workshop.

Another reason why the current edition won't be nearly as broken, is that the past version didn't have to contend with trinisphere or chalice of the void, both of which heavily disrupt this deck.

I don't mean to rain on the parade, since I feel 5D will push GAT even further into the ranks of top decks, however, don't expect what happened last spring.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

While I like the idea of serum visions, I do kinda question Night's whisper. Is it really that much better than having accumulated knowledge? the first ak is pretty shitty, granted, but after the first, ak's are much stronger. The standard argument against ak is that hulk can use it better than you, but with dryads, you should have an advantage in that matchup anyway. graveyard hate would suck, but who cares? ak also pitches to force and misD, which may be relevant in this deck seeing as you have 7 pitch counters. Thoughts on this?

I also think fastbond is a must. It's really amazing even with 1 gush. I also think that cutting to 10 disruption spells is okay. I've never really liked daze, but thats more of a personal bias. That would free up 2 open slots, one for fastbond, and probably another for a fetch (AMAZING synergy with cantrips) or an island.

Anyways, I've been kinda tinkering with this deck with a friend and so far it seems promising.

-Bob

[MuzzonoAmi]

I was actualy testing GAT a bit as well, so I'll throw in my 2 cents.

I think that MisD is somewhat weak outside of the control match, because we don't have a huge number of MisD-able effects running around. With the exception of Deep Analysis and Ancestral Recall, all the draw spells are untargeted. Mind Twist also isn't as prevalent, as 4c Control has dropped off significantly since then, and its presence in Tog decks is suspect.  

I do, however, like Daze. I'd consider going up to 4, and cutting to 2 Duress, and adding Sleight of Hand or Opt to help making running fewer lands easier. Like everyone else said, Fastbond has a definate place here.

[Eastman]

The first spells you play in any game in Vintage will be the most important. That is also true of Night's Whisper and Accumulated Knowledge. The extra card early puts Whisper in the lead.

[rvs]

The first spells you play in any game in Vintage will be the most important. That is also true of Night's Whisper and Accumulated Knowledge. The extra card early puts Whisper in the lead.

Did you just say Whispers > AK?  :lol:

[Wollblad]

I agree with those who have questioned Misdirection. Good against control, but bad against virtually everything else. Daze is better since you can drop a first turn Dryad and then counter whatever your opponent wants to do. Misdirection won't stop your opponent from playing a Tangle Wire or a draw seven. Even against Fire/Ice, Daze is better turn one if your opponents splits damage between you and your 1/1 dryad.

When I look at your sidebaord, I wonder how often you'll play a Wish for FoF? I would say that Vampiric belongs there and that Fastbond is a better maindeck choice.

Your mana base is a little bit scarse. What will you do against Stax or Mud? Doesn't a basic Island belong here? The slot could perhaps come from a Tog. Three just feels like one too much. If you draw a Dryad early on, you don't want to spend three mana on dropping a Tog, you want to play one mana spells and draw cards. Decreasing the number of Togs also lessens the risk of drawing those starting hands which are mana and creatures only.

[FireFall26]

I think the mis-d's are very key.  They are usuall extra FoWs to resolving early dryads, which is very important in the deck.  Generally since you play on the offensive, the mis d's are key to resolving spells.

[MuzzonoAmi]

You shouldn't need to run more than 4 FoW + cantrips to make sure you can resolve an early Dryad, since you still have 8 counters + 2 Duress at that stage. The problem I have with MisD is that it's a dead draw in non-control matches, but you beat control anyway, so why waste space on making good matchups better? Against everything else, it's either going to turn into Tog food, pitch to FoW (which Daze does anyway), or sit there doing nothing. Increasingly, decks are running countermagic for non-control purposes, meaing that they won't be targeting your Dryad if they can help it. For example, many Ravager Affinity builds are running Force/Duress to stop Null Rod, and save their disruption specifically to stop that HUGE threat to their strategy. Granted, they still CAN stop your Dryad, but a single Daze/FoW should be enough to protect it at that early point in the game. The same holds true against Madness. Workshop doesn't generally run counters, and nothing they run is notably MisD-able.

On the Workshop topic, I think that 2 Oxidize SB is a MUST, because we need to be able to stop Slavers/Pentavus(es? i?)/Smokestacks, etc. after they hit play. I'd even give some thought to a single MD Oxidize or Naturalize so you don't have to waste a Wish getting it.

[Gabethebabe]

Here is the version that I did some limited testing with:

4 Dryad
2 Tog

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum visions
4 Night´s Whisper
4 FoW
4 AK
3 Daze
3 MisD
1 Walk
1 Ancestral
1 Gush
1 Demonic
1 Fastbond
1 Will
2 Cunning Wish

4 Moxes (UBRG)
1 Lotus
5 Fetches
4 Tropical
4 Underground
1 Island
1 LoA

During testing I noted that AK 1 is often a pain to cast.

Fastbond works really really well, because you draw like a mother and you want to continue casting spells.

I took out slow (Mechant Scroll) and card-disadvantage (Vampiric /Mystical) tutors out of the build on the idea that with so many drawing and digging, you would run into what you need. Whether this is correct I haven´t found out yet.

Night´s Whisper goes quite well. However, with fetches, Fastbond, Whispers and FoW you kinda take a deep dive into your life-pool. I did not test against randomred.dec but it could very well be a nasty matchup.

I wasn´t really sure about the Daze/Misdirection thing. Scott Limoges played Duress in his GAT and no Daze/MisD. I guess this decision is also depending on the meta you see.

[FireFall26]

4 AK
...
4 Moxes (UBRG)

5 moxen is necessary.  1st turn dryad or whsipers is wat the decfk is looking for.  I think AK is unnecessary with the whsipers and the search is good in the deck.  I like scroll a lot, its running 2 ancestrals and can find gush, which can be game winning.  Floating 2 blue then gushing is starting to combo off.  I like whispers better than AK still.  AK gets hit reb, and its annoying playing verus them in the hulk/ak gro mirror.

Don't quote long posts in their entirety, especially when there are no intervening posts since. -Dr. S

[Jhaggs]

I haven't tested post-5th GAT but I would like to pose this question to those that have.  Has the current enviroment made a red splash unnecessary for this build.  For hulk, red is critical in my opinion.  While some argue that these builds operate differently they do have many common elements.  I'm curious as to why GAT doesn't need a red splash.

Finally, does the aggro element by Dryad negate the need for any main deck utility?

[Grand Inquisitor]

For hulk, red is critical in my opinion. While some argue that these builds operate differently they do have many common elements. I'm curious as to why GAT doesn't need a red splash.

Finally, does the aggro element by Dryad negate the need for any main deck utility?

Red serves the same purpose in GAT that it does in Hulk.  In some cases, GAT has the same weaknesses to workshop decks that hulk does.

However, with 5D, GAT is approaching a play-style that is reminiscent of 4 gush GAT.  This means that it can race Slaver and TnT.  However, like the old version, it has a lot of trouble with Stax-esque builds.  I'd imagine 7/10 would be difficult too, but not much worse than TnT; I haven't tested against it yet.

[Windfall]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't 4 Gush GAT run the Duresses in the SB?  It already had a strong matchup against Control because of Misdirection and superior draw, and the 1 mana cost of Duress got in the way of early cantrips, Dryads, and Togs.  It was not very good against aggro either.  Thus, could we consider testing without Duress in the main deck for this exact reason?  If you're running Misdirection, which I think is a good idea despite it's dwindling power, perhaps Duress is not needed.

[Gabethebabe]

It is noted that my list is incorrect, there should be 2 Volcanics in there, replacing a fetch and a trop (or a fetch and the island if you prefer).

[Wollblad]

Red as a color will help the control matchup by adding REB, but as I understood it is mainly there for the Stax and Mud matchup. Honestly I don't know how much you need it against Slaver, so someone who knows could perhaps enlighten me. Adding another color will further destabilize the mana base so is perhaps Cruicble of Worlds a sideboard option rather than adding red? It is a reasonably low CC permanent that will more or less nullify all strip effects and lessen the effect of Smokestack.

[Ric_Flair]

I understand that this is Suicide GAT, but is there no room for even one Deed? Also I have had really bad experiences with Daze.  Is it possible to replace 2 Daze with +1 Misdirection and +1 Duress.  I realize Daze is a free spell but it is such a terrible card after the first turn.  Maybe I am wrong and maybe the focus of the deck IS the first turn, but unless your running combo I think it is a foolhearty to ignore turns 2 through infinity.  Also I really like 4 Misdirection.  If I get a chance I will try out the Dazes.  I love the deck idea though.  Good job Eastman and others.

[DavidHernandez]

This looks remarkably like Team Gro's current list!

We are still using Mana Drains, but Duress is on the list along with Serum Visions and Nights Whisper.

I still run Misdirections (x3) though other members have dropped them.

@Windfall: Some Legacy GAT builds ran 3x Duress main. Zhalfirin used that build (as did many from C&J's including Saucemaster [whose idea i think it was...]).

The only concern i had with Visions/Whispers is the sorcery speed, but with the new build it doesnt seem to be a problem because we are trying to 'combo out' on our turn and them swing for lethal damage.

We originally tried Skeletal Scrying in some of these slots but found Whispers to be superior.

Dave.

[Jhaggs]

This may seem slightly off topic but I think it does have some relevance towards the discussion.  I was goldfishing a GAT build last night that ran 4 Visions in order to evaluate it's performance.  My question concerns what is a more optimal play on turn one when holding a good hand but not holding Dryad (and an island in play).  Is it better to play Visions or Brainstorm on turn one when holding both blue spells in this senerio?

At first I quickly jump on the eot brainstorm play as the more logical choice.  However there were several cases where that turn 1 brainstorm did not dig into an anticipated Dryad.  In these cases, if I had Visioned first I could have dug deeper into my deck by placing the scry cards on the bottom.  On turn two,  a Brainstorm would seem more effective because I could now draw into 3 new cards with a better chance of digging towards my goal.

I'm sure other factors play a role in this senerio like the other cards that I am holding but I am curious to see what others have done with their first turn mana sources, socerey speed or the instant?

EDIT: This pm was sent to me by cssamerican:

I would say the right play is Vision first and Brainstorm second. The reason being is you do not run hard counters, so there is no real compelling reason to not tap out and dig deeper. The only time I might not tap out in this way is if I didn't have a FoW or a Daze to thwart any first turn brokeness of my opponent, and I was hoping to Brainstorm into one if they played anything of consequence. But if I had no Dryads and no counters I doubt I would keep the hand anyway. At least that is the way I see it.

[Saucemaster]

@Windfall: Some Legacy GAT builds ran 3x Duress main. Zhalfirin used that build (as did many from C&J's including Saucemaster [whose idea i think it was...]).

The early GAT builds--as in Roland Bode's original list, IIRC--ran 2-3 Duress in the SB.  I moved them maindeck because GAT was beating every aggro deck already and I wanted the extra help against control, combo, and most especially the mirror.  I posted about it here, and most people found that the increased SB real estate was invaluable.  The reasoning behind this was simply that old GAT was just super aggressive and really just wanted the extra turn of disruption while growing the Dryad to forestall any brokenness, and that the only real matchup it worried about was the mirror.  I think the consensus view by the time GAT ruled the earth was that the maindeck Duress was superior.

Whether that makes sense in a modern build where the goldfish is slower and you can't just make up the lost Duress by Gushing (and then Gushing again, and then playing two cantrips and then Gushing again and then YawgWilling...) is something I can't very well address, mostly because I dropped GAT for Tog after Gush got the axe.  I will say that I never, never liked Daze enough to run it even in old GAT, and I can't imagine there's not a better use for those slots; in Type 1 Daze is almost (though not quite) strictly inferior to Duress.

[MuzzonoAmi]

But then what should we run in place of MisD? I think that it is a very bad idea to play right now, with the only deck it shines against being Hulk, which you have a strong matchup against anyway. Could we work some other cheap counter into that slot? Maybe Disrupt is worth a shot, even. It's another cantrip, at worst. Granted, Daze would appear to be better, but I'm strongly opposed to MisD on the grounds that it is total dead weight in the 4c Control matchup, which is the deck that is most likely to be able to answer a turn 1 Dryad, because they run the best removal (Balance, StP) and against that removal, MisD is useless (unless they're going suicide-Angel, or you happen to have another creature in play). Could Mana Drain be used in these slots? What about Cabal Therapy?

[DavidHernandez]

Actually, I'm very surprised that Mana Drain is not on the list. Even a multiple of 3 would be better than zero.  

As for Mis-D, I know most people think it's inferior, but I think Ultima proved this to be false. He's won enough jewlery with GAT and maindeck Mis-d to make a good case.

I'll say this again: MisD will save you from Mind Twist, Hymn, FoW, Mana Drain, Counterspell, stupid burn, and more. Redirecting a STP or Dismantling Blow or Disenchant or whatever can also be game breaking.

Oh, and it doesn't hurt to steal an Ancestral either.

MisD = Underrated.

As for Daze, I understand it's usefullness. I've looked at it several times because it can be a free counter while acting like a small Gush, growing the Dryad and feeding the Tog.  But every time I've pulled it in favor of MisD or Duress or some other draw card.

Dave.

[Eastman]

Actually, I'm very surprised that Mana Drain is not on the list. Even a multiple of 3 would be better than zero.  

As for Mis-D, I know most people think it's inferior, but I think Ultima proved this to be false. He's won enough jewlery with GAT and maindeck Mis-d to make a good case.

I'll say this again: MisD will save you from Mind Twist, Hymn, FoW, Mana Drain, Counterspell, stupid burn, and more. Redirecting a STP or Dismantling Blow or Disenchant or whatever can also be game breaking.

Oh, and it doesn't hurt to steal an Ancestral either.

MisD = Underrated.

As for Daze, I understand it's usefullness. I've looked at it several times because it can be a free counter while acting like a small Gush, growing the Dryad and feeding the Tog.  But every time I've pulled it in favor of MisD or Duress or some other draw card.

Dave.

Well, there are a lot of questions about the disruption base. What are the thoughts, opinions, arguments of some other community members for and against Mana Drain, Misdirection, Duress, and Daze ?

[DavidHernandez]

Because I use MisD and it usually causes the removal of a card from the game, I've been looking at running more draw. Ultima's list used to run 3 Thirst for Knowledge. I've found that this card is fantastic.  Without 5th Dawn, I've been looking at the following draw:

4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Gush
3 Cunning Wish

1 Fact or Fiction in the Board.

This can help get around CotV (expecting to see this more and more with the growing popularity of DonkeyStaxx and 7/10 Split). With draw spells spread over a casting cost of 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 it's pretty secure in getting some answers.

I don't run Intuition because I want to hardcast all of the AK's (grow the Dryad) and/or use Hulk's AK's to my advantage.

I also think that Smmenen advocated the use of 1 Gorilla Shaman in the main, which I have seen in action and must admit is brilliant.

4 Dryad
2 Tog
1 Shaman

But then you're running Red (like me) and have to watch the mana base.  At this point, Duress may have to be dropped for better consistency.

dave.

[Gabethebabe]

IMO Mana Drain does not belong in the deck. You want to drop a threat and go cycling through your library, tapping out each turn. If you want to play Mana Drain, play Hulk. The synergy of this deck with Mana Drain is soooo much better. Leave UU open and if there´s nothing worth countering, you can do something EOT. Whispers and Serum Visions you can´t play EOT.

About Serum Visions, Brainstorm: I would play Visions first turn 100%. If there is a Dryad in your first four cards you can play it next turn. For Brainstorm you need the Dryad in the first three cards.

Also with Serum Visions, if you find a Mox in your top three, you can leave it on top and BS next turn and maybe play a Dryad off Mox and land.

[MaxxMatt]

I tested the 4C-Control vs. 5D-GroATog  matchup with a preliminary and not so streamlined build of GAT that Siral assembled during this week. We played 20+ preside games.

I felt pretty confident because of shaman/strips and the pair of Skeletal/Angel.
Instead the results stunned me a lot.

Siral played GroATog and myself 4C-Control. I won ONLY the matches during which I resolved a fast Morphed Angel ( fast= turn 1 and/or 2.)

All the other matches saw him resolving spell after spell and treating me in the "bad old way" with Dryads and after I stressed my deck for answers to his Dryads he won with Tog off Y.Will.

I didn't post the list because it isn't optimal at this moment ( even during the matches we changed to the maindeck by up to 7 cards) but I can assure you that it has more or less the same skeleton as the one Eastman proposed in the initial post, with some changes on the distribuition of creatures and disruption.

If I'm not failing on remembering the Cantrips configuration, I noticed 16 of them in the maindeck (S.Visions, N.Whispers, Brainstorms and Opts).

The distruption's configuration proposed by Eastman as reference IMHO is good, but, playing against Siral, I noticed HOW GOOD the Mana Drains are EVEN with only 1 maindeck Gush and with not so many spell to abuse of the Drained mana. It supports the Colorless aspect of N.Whispers, Dryads, Atogs, Gush and let you consistenly resolve Cunning Wish. I think that the disruption spells to use would be Drain, FoW and Duress in a number variable from 10 to 12. Mis-Ds would be less useful than Duress in the Post-5D meta, and it would become a perfect Wish target or Post-Side help for the mirror match.

I selectively Crushed ALL his Black mana ( 4-5 Fetch, Jet, Lotus and 4 Undergrounds ) but he seemed to be ALWAYS able to resolve some Crazy black spells or at worst to lose a turn on finding the needed mana to resolve them. Denying ALL the mana even with Shamans is difficult. He dug better and faster than me. Even with 1 or 2 mana sources the deck can dig up solutions or little/great threats that you have to stop fast or simply die. Being as much aggro as him is the only good strategy to support the mana denial plan.

Of course, it isn't 4Gush-GroATog if we analyze his speed, but it has at least 2 or 3 mana sources more than it, so I noticed that ALL my colored lands are nearly equal to his colored lands, with the difference that in the midgame he can topdecks 4-5 spells compared to my 4-5 excess lands. In those bad topdecks the game is decided and,  in that precise moment of the game, he usually win. If we take count of my possible screw with 4 color to support, all nearly important in this matchup, compared to his 3 colors, with pratically only 1 secondary color needed during the first 2 turns ( green ) and only the other in the remaining ones ( black ), his path to victory is not only SIMPLIER to achieve but even safer and faster than mine.


In this same week I played against another extemely good Hulk Player and I had the strange sense of Deja Vu about THE DIFFERENCES when I lose against him or agaisnt NEWGroATog. It seemed too strange to me to lose to a "Suboptimal" No-4-Gush-GroAtoG with a BETTER Control-Keeper-Dec. And it worried me a bit..

I think that this build can be considered a good one to use in this field. If you can be able to take care of Welders in some ways, I think that your Dryads and Togs can win faster than the Togs in Hulk. With the difference that Dryads can hep some Aggro matchups as well. The Mirror remains a great Goldfish IMHO. The one who starts going crazy first with brokeness will always win. And with the word "Mirror", I mean both the Hulk_vs._GroATog and the GroAtoG_vs._GroATog matchups.


Not using AK is a decision made ONLY because of the possible great number of mrror matches in our game area. Not being able to Intuition for AK is the best reason NOT to use them at all.
As Clown of Tresserhorn suggested some posts ago, AKs are FAR BETTER than Night's Whispers, because they draw you more cards ( 10 instead of 8 BUT with istant speed and NO life loss ),  but the lack of sinergies with tutors as Intuitions prevented/suggested us to use it. At least for now...

The side clearly is opened to a billion of possible cards. 2 Wishes are not enough to warrant a 10-12 pool of istants in our side. If 3 Wishes would be the optimum number to use, I think that the skeleton of the OLD GroAT's Side could be easily adapted to this new build. If I would use 3 Wishes maybe I will keep the lone Gush in my side to rise the rate of drawing-searching for it.


I don't know If I have been clear enough, with my "english",  but the results I obtained were full of facts to explain. More words have to be used and more problems/errors I have/do...  
(I tried to fix it up a little, for clarity, since there's a lot of good stuff in here. If I changed anything wrongly, I apologize.
-Jacob)

MaxxMatt

[Wollblad]

Mana Drain had a sertain value when the deck used Isochron Scepter, but now with both Serum Visions and Night's Whisper, both at sourcery speed, you won't be able to leave mana open for Mana Drain.

As I said above, I don't think red should be included, but still there is a need to take out small anoying creatures and I guess these cards have to be in the sidebaord. My suggestion is 2 BEB and 2 Smother. The first for Welders, the second for Tog and Metal Workers. Is this enough? What about angels?

[MuzzonoAmi]

If the angels are face down, then Smother works. Maybe Edict? Hell, even Terror works, but it doesn't kill fat artifact dudes, but we have Oxidize for that. So I think that running 3 BEB/2 Smother/3 Oxidize is a good call for a sideboard beginning. As far as Graveyard hate is concerned, would you rather use Crypt or Coffin Purge? I'm leaning Crypt because of its ability to wreck so many decks right now, but if Rector starts becoming popular again, my opinion may change.

[rvs]

Even though I think Edict and Terror are both acceptable, isn't Snuff Out the best option if you have wishes maindeck? Then they would not only kill Angels, but have the added bonus of killing a few Dragons here and there.