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Author Topic: Updating Draw7 6.15.04  (Read 20702 times)
Smmenen
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« on: June 14, 2004, 11:56:06 pm »

Draw7

Draw 7s: (10)
4 Diminishing Returns
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Windfall
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Timetwister
1 Time Spiral

Setting up/Protecting the Combo: (9)
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Ancestral

The best Cards Evar !!!  (4)
1 Mind's Desire
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will


Lands: (11)
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Glimmervoid
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Underground Sea

Acceleration:

Non Artifact (10)
1 Fastbond
1 Crop Rotation
4 Dark Ritual
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
 
Artifact (13)
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Diamond

1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Chrome Mox
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault

Tutors:
Demonic Tutor

Finishers:
2 Tendrils of Agony


SB:
4 Xantid Swarms
(for LED, Fastbond, Crop Rotation, and Time Spiral)
1 Time Walk
4 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Hidden Guerrillas
1 Tendrils of Agony
XXXX

The new additions are Mox Diamond, a permanent addition, and tentatively Time Spiral.  

Mox Diamond is amazing with a hand of 1 land or 2 - and you probably couldn't keep a hand of no land.  If you have two lands, you have UU up immediately.  If you have one land, then you can Draw7 into more lands to play.  

Time Spiral is the weakest of the draw7s by far, but it is actually better than Returns on turn three and later - unless you have Academy, and is really nice to Desire into.   While I don't particularly like Spiral, and it is the most cuttable card, it's probably stronger than Walk or Vamp as it is genuine business.

By cutting Time Walk and Vamp, I've made the deck smoother and less decision intensive.  It is now as straightforward as it can be.  

This is the best build of Draw7 yet.  It is the simpliest, most redundant and consistent, and easiest to play.  It also has a maximum load of accelleration for maximum brokenness.  Finally, this deck is as fast as Belcher, but it has Force of Will.  

The plan of draw7 is something like this:

T1 Play something broken.  Turn two play something broken.  Turn three play something broken.

If stuff gets force of willed, you are fine becuase you have more on the way.

For example.  

Turn One: Land, Mox, Mox, Wheel, Force of Will

Turn Two: Land, Returns.  Mana Drain

Turn three: Land, Spiral, - resolves.

Your Force of Wills help resolve awesome spells, and some of the spells just say you win.

Thoughts, opinions, spare change?

Steve
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ctthespian
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« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2004, 01:26:32 am »

Steve the main deck is at 57 cards and is missing burning wish for the tendrils in the side.

I've tested 1 Krark-Clan Ironworks in place of the 4th spirit guide recently.  It worked wonders for mana production and allowed me to drop moxen again when I cast a returns or a twister.  Though the version I ran did not have either the Chrome Mox or Diamond.

-Keith
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« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2004, 02:09:01 am »

Quote from: ctthespian
Steve the main deck is at 57 cards and is missing burning wish for the tendrils in the side.

I've tested 1 Krark-Clan Ironworks in place of the 4th spirit guide recently.  It worked wonders for mana production and allowed me to drop moxen again when I cast a returns or a twister.  Though the version I ran did not have either the Chrome Mox or Diamond.

-Keith


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@Smmenen: I realy like your recent changes, Steve. Mox Diamond seems to fit in the gameplan really well although I think that you may become problems with its cost forcing you to dicard a land.

Time Spiral seems rather bad to me. But Vampiric and Walk as well, so I think you made the right decision here.

BUT is this really as fast as Belcher is? I don't think so, maybe I have to test more with it, but until now I didn't have as good results as with Belcher.
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« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2004, 02:37:13 am »

have you tried retract/hurkyl's recall/chain of vapor? hurkyl's recall/chain of vapor is great vs an opposing null rod. chain of vapor has the added capability or possibly providing even more 'spells counts' by bouncing your moxes and sacrificing the few lands you might have into play (so that each copy of chain of vapor adds 1 to sotrm count, plus putting back the moxes). All of theses 3 cards can also possibly give/fix mana.

i must say that I was quite surprised to see a build not using any chromatic sphere. most builds that I have seen uses 3 chromatic spheres.

The list sounds good. I just would probably cut the time spiral for one of the 3 cards mentioned above.
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« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2004, 05:38:38 am »

Hidden Guerrillas? Really? This deck doesn't look like it could even in a wild fantasy transform into an aggroish deck, why try to force such a strategy?
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« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2004, 07:42:24 am »

This deck MUST play Xantid Swarms maindeck. You cannot expect FoW's to keep stopping spells when you're casting draw-7's and drawing through your deck. Swarm does all of that, and more.

This ofcourse is only true in half-serious metas and above, where people actually know how to make blue mana.
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« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2004, 07:44:02 am »

I know people have tried Ironworks already and no-one really seemed to like it, but can't there really be found 1 spot for it?

To me the deck looks like a build for a metagame with quite a lot of control, but less aggro-control and prison. Is this right?

Losing all forms of bouce (I used to play Chain and H. Recall) leaves you very vulnerable to Trini/Chalice/Sphere/Null Rod. What made you make the decision to up the draw-seven count even more in favor of some hate-answers? your local metagame? the rise of control?

The only thing I don't really like is the Spiral, it's like a very bad Desire. I think it could be replaced with either Chain or H. Recall, and I think the latter wins this contest.

I know its often hard to fill the sideboard of this deck (hence, the Tarpan tech) but is there an explenation for the Tendrils, Walk? (I guess walk could come in together with the Guerrillas, which looks pretty funny, playing Negator for 1 mana is tech)

Koen
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« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2004, 07:46:31 am »

I have been wanted to add Quirion Dryad just for the hell of it,  because I have been playing GAT a lot and it is becoming a personal favorite.  I think it is a better addition than Hidden Gibbons, because even if you don't go off you can still play enough spells for it to be bigger than 4/4.

I think in the extra slots in the SB should be Chin of Vapor just because ever since September it has been saving my ass from Chalices, Trinispheres, Sphere of Resistance, Meddling Mage, Ivory Mask, and True Believer.  I know the last two aren't played much, but who wants to lose to jank like that?

Overall I love this build's speed with FoW backup.  Great job.
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« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2004, 07:49:09 am »

@Goober: you want to be 100% sure though to drop it turn 1. Also, Guerrillas  is the card played, not gibbons.

@Thug: Control-metas are more reasons to play Swarms maindeck. So I think Steve posts this as a "general" list.
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« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2004, 08:17:23 am »

I can't see the wisdom of playing 4 x Diminishing Returns with no maindeck Burning Wish - I know you are opting for less tutorability for more draw, but the games where you simply scalp your kill are ones that you could probably otherwise win had you another maindecked (albeit proxy) win condition.  If you dropped Burning Wish to open up the sideboard, add more blue for FoW, and dumb down the deck, I think that's fine, but a more optimal build includes Burning Wish for the following reasons:

1) Diminishing Returns is less risky, and you get to play 5 instead of just 4.
2) Demonic Consultation becomes an option (albeit bad with so many DR).
3) Sometimes a single Tendrils is not enough, but necessary to fuel Bargain/Necro (or you just don't want to waste a decent storm count) - so your kill card isn't completely wasted if it was cast under Will.
4) Your sideboard can hold situational bullet sorceries.

You are also underestimating the importance of Time Walk in a deck that also plays Necropotence, Memory Jar, Tolarian Academy, and potentially creatures that turn sideways.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2004, 10:48:25 am »

Quote from: MoreFling
This deck MUST play Xantid Swarms maindeck. You cannot expect FoW's to keep stopping spells when you're casting draw-7's and drawing through your deck. Swarm does all of that, and more.

This ofcourse is only true in half-serious metas and above, where people actually know how to make blue mana.


That's actually false.

Playing Maindeck Xantid Swarms slows the deck down SIGNIFICANTLY.  The speed compensates nicely through added pressure on turn one and two.  When I played with maindeck Xantids last March in the columbus tournament, I wondered why I never won a single game on turn one - that was why.  I didn't have Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond or even Crop Rotation maindeck - key elements for getting UU online.

This is not long.  In long you would play a swarm, and win next turn.  This deck is fundamentally different - you don't set up a "winning turn".  Instead the concept is to bombard your opponent with spells that they cannot possibly stop each and every one.  Then you try again the following turn if they have stopped one.  The draw7 disrupts their entire game plan and refills your hand with fresh awesomeness. Sooner, rather than later, you will win.  

Xantid Swarm should definately be in the SB, but I'm not so hot on the card as I once was.

In my testing against the Tooge (2G), this has held true.  You win by winning, not disrupting them with Xantids.  The Force of Wills are just nice as disruption and tempo, not to secure your position.

VGB: my original Draw7 list had one Wish md, but it was a mistake.  You will see it in the archives here or on SCG.

Steve
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« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2004, 10:51:14 am »

No way man, I will never play Draw 7 or Dragon with out 4xMD Swarms. Crop Rotation, LED, Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond only exist in this deck to speed up its gold fish. None of this speed is necessary, as I have learned from my many bastardizations of Dragon. It is MUCH more prudent to simply drop a Swarm and pass, instead of dropping Rotation/LED/Chrome/Diamond and trying to force a Returns into a FoW. By removing Swarms from Combo (Belcher is a Pile), you are effectively eliminating Draw 7's ability to become the Control Deck vs Control (You heard me right).

When did we become so fascinated with the speed of our Gold Fish rates that we forgot about actually winning? Haven't you said this before? Making such drastic changes to this deck to augment its turn 2 consistancey (Lets say by 10%) is meaningless, IMHO. It's not your Gold Fish consistancey that is important with Combo, it's achieving a psychological affect on your opponent. As long as your opponent KNOWS that your playing a Combo deck capable of atleast 20-50% turn 2 wins, he HAS to play accordingly. Think of it in terms of MAD, America has no intentions of ever using its nuclear arsenal, but it does everything it can to make sure the world knows it's there.

I'm sorry Steve, but when I actually saw Time Spiral in your list, I looked outside to see if "A Hard Rain Is a Fallin"
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« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2004, 10:52:08 am »

You just missed my post in the matter.  I explained why winning is better than disruption.  It is the relentless assault of Draw7s that make this deck good - not setting up a single combo turn.

The addition of more business spells makes this plan viable since each individual spell is then less important.

What you are all missing is what is occuring on one side of the board.  You need to constantly be aware of the affect your game plan has on your opponent.  When you hold back for even a turn, you give your opponent breathing room.  You must show them no quarter and you will win the game through tempo.

Consider: if your opponent has Forced twice in the first two turns - after you went first turn draw7, and turn two draw7 and they Brainstorm to see another FoW - you are winning that game - or at least you are executing your game plan well.  

They have likely lost a key tutor (intution) or a draw spell (AK) to protect themselves.  This puts them into topdeck mode (and possibly you as well), but at least you have severely stunted their game plan.  And if you follow it up with at third business spell, you will likely win.


I will post testing results here.

Steve
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« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2004, 12:51:55 pm »

Here's an absurd, off-the wall suggestion that may just be terrible: have you tested Dream Halls in here? It would bump you up to 19 blue spells, and provide all the mana acceleration you need. The real problem is potentially turning opposing drains into uber-forces, but casting all your draw-7s for free might be worth it.
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« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2004, 02:03:42 pm »

@Smmenen,

Have you tried Recycle?

It seems that now its cost  {4}{G}{G}  isnt´s as prohibitive as in previous combo decks, as Draw 7 is based around Dark Rituals and Elvish Spirit Guide.

You could include an Hurkyl´s Recall to both fuel it, and remove any Null Rod, or Trinisphere

@Jacob Orlove,
Dream Halls also turns provides a free use of the Intuitions in the Tog deck, to fetch more AKs, which draw more Drains/FOW´s...
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« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2004, 02:29:07 pm »

I can assure you, if you were to get Dream Halls into play you would have the advantage for several reasons.

A deck designed to abuse Dream Halls will only be using it to cast draw spells and up its storm count and win that turn. The defensive deck will will sucumb to the barage of spells that Dream Halls allows and lose, or it will win the counter war only to stall because it pitched all of its draw cards (You know the blue one it will need to pitch in order to cast its counters for free). Either way my money would always be on the Draw 7 deck in this senario; however, I not so sure that this is nothing more than a win more card. But if you were to go in this direction and feared the possibility of losing to "Free" counter magic then I would consider looking again at Xantid Swarm, though I am pretty sure if you landed a Dream Halls you would win the game in 99% of realistic situations.
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« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2004, 02:53:55 pm »

Hidden Guerillas are the Chain of Vapor in this deck, or more accurately, the Phyrexian Negator in Academy. The problem that Academy ran into was control, and went beatdown in the face of it. D7 has a problem with Trinisphere, so it boards in its negators against them, but these 'gators come out off ESG and cause massive TAMPO as your opponent reels for an answer to beats. Comboing out is nice as well, but the Guerillas create a definite clock that is independent of your opponent's lockdown components.



Edit: because Orlove isn't l33t.
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« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2004, 02:56:43 pm »

I really don't think I would enjoy running Dream Halls in the deck, if only because it isn't a draw7 and costs too much mana for something that isn't one (Bargain being the exception to this rule).  It seems like it could be beneficial to cast draw7s for free, but I think I'd rather hold other blue spells back to be able to Force back up my draw7, or to be able to cast them the next turn if my draw7 gets countered.  Either way, it just seems like a win more card, and not something that enhances your game plan of maintaining constant pressure with draw7s.
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« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2004, 05:18:36 pm »

I worked on decks with Dream Halls for a while, and I came to the conclusion that if you ever cast it, you wanted to have a Necropotence or Bargain instead.  There was almost never a situation in which you need the Dream Halls and haven't already won, but there are plenty of times when you want to cast Necropotence or Bargain before you've won.  (In other words, after you cast Necro or Bargain, you have won.  But if you're at a good place to cast Dream Halls, you have already won, and therefore you don't need Dream Halls.)

Steve, I don't entirely understand your speed argument.  Belcher can justify not running protection because the opponent will only have seen 8 or 9 cards before Belcher wins.  But if you're playing draw 7 after draw 7, they are going to see counters.  I understand that you can keep throwing threats at them, but if they counter, say, your first draw 7 of the turn on your first or second turn, you won't have the mana to cast another.  Then you have to wait a turn to untap (and the argument against Xantid Swarms appears to be that you don't want to wait that turn).  You also said that by the time you play your third business spell (presumably a draw 7) their game plan has been severely stunted because they've tossed tutors or card draw to protect themselves, but they're going to get those tutors and card draw and more counters back when that business spell resolves.

Carlossb, wouldn't you lose the cards you draw from Recycle with the first draw 7 you play?  You'll draw a whole bunch of cards by playing mana spells, then you'll play a draw 7 and have a hand of 7 again.
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« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2004, 05:44:08 pm »

Quote
Turn One: Land, Mox, Mox, Wheel, Force of Will

Turn Two: Land, Returns. Mana Drain

Turn three: Land, Spiral, - resolves.


I still dont get the advantage of playing spells until the opponent runs out of counters, instead of playing xantid swarm MD and simply win the turn after.
Especially i dont get your "tempo" arguement.


my 2 cents
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« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2004, 05:54:15 pm »

Quote from: theorigamist
But if you're at a good place to cast Dream Halls, you have already won, and therefore you don't need Dream Halls.


Not true.  Assume you have 3UU floating, and your hand is Dream Halls, Diminishing Returns, and some random blue card.  Diminishing Returns means you have to hope to topdeck mana; Dream Halls, Pitch for Returns is game over.
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« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2004, 06:25:53 pm »

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Quote from: theorigamist
But if you're at a good place to cast Dream Halls, you have already won, and therefore you don't need Dream Halls.


Not true. Assume you have 3UU floating, and your hand is Dream Halls, Diminishing Returns, and some random blue card. Diminishing Returns means you have to hope to topdeck mana; Dream Halls, Pitch for Returns is game over.


This type of thinking is what made me want to test Dream Halls in the first place.  Your statement is not true in practice.  If you draw into lands, artifacts, or different colored cards the game is not over.  Also, you enable the opponent to pitch Brainstorms to play Mana Drains without paying mana, or to play Force of Will without paying life.  And they'll draw 7 every time you do.  I'm sure you can think up situations in which Dream Halls is very useful, but that does not really help the discussion, nor does it change real results.
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« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2004, 06:26:50 pm »

I think instead of everyone saying I don't get it... I don't get it... please explain the xantid swarm thing to me one more time, wouldn't it serve your time better to go try his ideas? From what I can tell... he's played the deck, has loads of experience (since he built it hmmm....) where as you guys are theorizing, or at best have only tried YOUR versions and are trying to say this one won't work because it deviates from what you're playing currently.

I think your time would be better spent, getting the deck together and throwing it against some other decks and then come back with some constructive criticism, instead of just complaining over and over that you don't get it.
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« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2004, 06:43:37 pm »

When not spending time playtesting with some strange version of (Keeper) Best.dec, I hand over my time to combo testing, and find it an amusing getaway. Sometimes I wonder if it just has yet to proove itself as the best deck in the format.

I feel the deck is quite viable these days and way underplayed (at least in the Northeastern US).  Its problems seem more to be the dropping of a card that to combo seems like a lock (Null Rod, Meddling Mage,Sphere of Resistance, Platinum Angel for example..), As opposed to a draw7 being countered for endgame, which especially in your build does not seem like a problem to me (as you have so many).

I have only been doing this for a few weeks now, but in my testing I liked 4 Duress over 4 Swarm, Time Spiral over Windfall, and Glimmervoid over Gemstone Mine. My list runs much less mana than yours does but yours seems to try get to the draw 7 as quick as possible, where mine seems to let duress try to keep the game even so that when a draw 7 comes up I can get it in.

I'm tinkering with this (no pun intended)

1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Balance
1 Fastbond
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
2 Tendrils of Agony
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Mind's Desire
1 Time Spiral
2 Cunning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Memory Jar
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault                          
1 Lion's Eye Diamond                                                          
1 Sol Ring                                  
1 Black Lotus                          
1 Mox Sapphire                          
1 Mox Jet                                                    
1 Mox Ruby                              
1 Mox Pearl                                
1 Mox Emerald                                                    
1 Library of Alexandria                        
1 Tolrian Academy                        
3 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Glimmervoid

1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Oxidize
1 Naturalize
1 Disenchant
2 Swords to Plowshres
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Gorilla Shaman
2 Rack and Ruin
1 Stifle
1 Rebuild
2 Blue Elemental Blast



Your list has much more experience than mine does, perhaps you can tell me why you like Mine over Void.  Do you combo out before one is usually used up and/or have enough mana anyways?  This is pobably a stupid one, but with so much acceleration have you considered an Upheaval  Embarassed  ?How about Cunning Wish or Rebuild to stop the cards that say you scoop?  Are you comboing out more often than not before those things happen? Also, any comments on ways to better my list are appreciated.
                                                                   
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« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2004, 06:44:56 pm »

Quote from: theorigamist
Quote from: Xhad
Quote from: theorigamist
But if you're at a good place to cast Dream Halls, you have already won, and therefore you don't need Dream Halls.


Not true. Assume you have 3UU floating, and your hand is Dream Halls, Diminishing Returns, and some random blue card. Diminishing Returns means you have to hope to topdeck mana; Dream Halls, Pitch for Returns is game over.


This type of thinking is what made me want to test Dream Halls in the first place.  Your statement is not true in practice.  If you draw into lands, artifacts, or different colored cards the game is not over.  Also, you enable the opponent to pitch Brainstorms to play Mana Drains without paying mana, or to play Force of Will without paying life.  And they'll draw 7 every time you do.  I'm sure you can think up situations in which Dream Halls is very useful, but that does not really help the discussion, nor does it change real results.


Regarding Mana Drain: That's true, but specific to the control matchup.  It's possible the Dream Halls could be a sideboard card, or something to side out in control matchups.

Regarding getting a bum Draw7 hand: Fair enough, but near 100% of the hands that would fizzle with a Dream Halls in play would fizzle anyway.  The hands the deck tends to fizzle on are the all-mana and the not-enough-mana hand; the manaflood hand will fizzle no matter what, while the mana screw hand would almost never fizzle since you'll almost always have something to pitch to whatever random broken blue/black card you happen to find.
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« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2004, 06:53:48 pm »

Quote from: Mon, Goblin Chief
/edit:
Quote
Regarding Mana Drain: That's true, but specific to the control matchup. It's possible the Dream Halls could be a sideboard card, or something to side out in control matchups.

Against which deck besides Control do you really want to make a combo-deck better in a way Dream Halls can do?


If the Dream Halls makes the deck go off more consistently (which I'm assuming is why you'd even test it), that could mean less chance of fizzling and giving non-drain slaver workshop an opening to drop a 3Sphere or something.
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« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2004, 06:56:35 pm »

@ Jacob

If you have 3uu open in a combo deck,

a) It is pretty early (this is a combo deck, so turns 1,2, or 3)
b) playing that mana probably depleted your hand to 2-4 cards.

Assuming the median on each of those conditions (turn 2, 3 cards in hand), imagine the following scenario:

For to be usable that turn you need a blue draw7 (Diminishing Returns or Twister for arguments sake) and another blue card in hand. Assuming that that is the case, would you cast

a) Dream Halls
b) Diminishing Returns/Timetwister?

Given that the Draw7 would leave me w/ 1-2 mana floating and would not be setting my opponent up to Drain without UU (as Dream Halls would) I personally would choose the D7. Given that actually casting a D7 seems preferable to casting Dream Halls even in a scenario fabricated to make Dream Halls as attractive as possible given the constraints of the deck, I do not see how Dream Halls would fit.
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« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2004, 07:16:33 pm »

Quote from: LOLinger
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Turn One: Land, Mox, Mox, Wheel, Force of Will

Turn Two: Land, Returns. Mana Drain

Turn three: Land, Spiral, - resolves.


I still dont get the advantage of playing spells until the opponent runs out of counters, instead of playing xantid swarm MD and simply win the turn after.
Especially i dont get your "tempo" arguement.


my 2 cents

I also think this example is rather bogus, because it doesn't factor in Tog's Duress/Shaman at turn 1 or turn 3. I've gone this route before, which is why I'm so suprised Steve is advocating the "just win" build. At best, your reducing your opponent's hand size by one with your added speed. Swarm reduces their hand size to Zilch and allows you to take more aggressive Mulligans. It also solves the 4 Fow/4 Stifle Fish problem, which Draw 7 simply can't ignore. Swarms brake the symmetry of Draw 7's, and what's better than that?
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« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2004, 07:19:21 pm »

@whoever likes Dream Halls or Recycle
Recycle and Dream Halls both cost more than 4 and don't win you the game outright.  Bargin means draw 16ish and Desire means draw 6-20 and play them all free.  Recycle requires you to use mana after you dump a ton into it, where Bargin draws you the mana you need to refuel after you cast it.  Dream Halls requires you to pitch cards of the same color, which isn't always easy.  Often you get hands of a land or two, artifacts, acceleration, and a draw7.  IThat would fizzle if you cast Dream Halls but not if you just spent that on the spell.  Draw 7 doesn't have enough blue to be able to pitch draw7 AND pitch to FoW.  By giving your opponent 4 more free counters, and free  ways to draw counters you are justing making it harder on yourself.  You say that the other counter is specific to control matchups, but it is more along the lines of specific to a lot of tough matchups.  Stax and FCG are pretty much the only decks which won't be able to use the Halls to hurt you.


@Matrix
Library is not a good land at all, you will see one use of it, after a Draw7 before you just go ahead and win.  Chromatic Sphere is better because it doesn't cost you your land drop, and it is mana smoothing.  Often you need to get started off some land before you go off.  A cantrip and nothing more doesn't belong in this deck, or else there would be Onslaught lands up the wazoo.

Glimmervoid is too situational to have 4 of.  You do play artifact mana, but you want to save laying it until the turn you go off.  Gemstone Mine lets you play 1 first turn, pass, then go off next turn with the two land.  Glimmervoid needs you to play some artifact mana, lowering your storm count for when you go off, and have it not be destroyed.  Mox Monkey is seeing some nice play so turn 1 monkey with a mox/crypt/lotus can ruin your day.  Also you won't always have an artifact to play first turn if you aren't going off.  Gemstone Mine has no drawback because you almost never need to tap it 4 times.

FoW>Duress because it is able to stop the things that say scoop when your opponent is going before you, and it is free.  That 1 mana can be a lot when you are trying to cast your first draw7.  

Cunning Wish just takes up far too much time, and would only fetch Hurkel's 99% of the time.  Your targets are pretty much ripped straight from Germbus, and they serve a control deck's function, not combo.  The only creature worth StPing is a Meddling Mage, and they should be filtered out in the early rounds because the only deck that runs it sucks.  It costs far too much mana to use any of the Wish targets, and the slot could be better used with Windfall and other acceleration/draw.  The name is Draw7, keep the 3 mana ones in over the 4 at least, Windfall>Returns.  

The Colossus is interesting but if you can play him you can win, so why bother.  If you have 11 mana and him, then you should use that 11 to just win.  If you have tinker just use it for a Jar, and win.

Your whole sideboard needs revamping because it is Wish targets, which isn't effective.

@smmenen
I have been fooling around with replacing a DR with Burning Wish.  This allows for a Tendrils in the side to act as a 3rd, just in case they both get removed from a DR.  If you need to draw7 you can just wish for one, even though it will cost 2 more.  I am trying to see if that 2 mana more is worth it for the security it provides.  I know it is rare to remove both, but I hate how every DR is a chance to just autolose.
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« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2004, 07:35:11 pm »

Quote from: Xhad
Regarding getting a bum Draw7 hand: Fair enough, but near 100% of the hands that would fizzle with a Dream Halls in play would fizzle anyway. The hands the deck tends to fizzle on are the all-mana and the not-enough-mana hand; the manaflood hand will fizzle no matter what, while the mana screw hand would almost never fizzle since you'll almost always have something to pitch to whatever random broken blue/black card you happen to find.

First, don't claim percentages, especially ridiculous ones, without talking about your own playtesting.  It can only lead to flaming.

Second, the percentage of time that I fizzled with Dream Halls in play when I tried it was very low, but not insignificant.  The important thing I noticed, though, was that in any given situation with Dream Halls, if I had, for instance, Bargain in play (in addition to or instead of Dream Halls) I definitely would not fizzle.  Dream Halls, Necropotence, Yawgmoth's Bargain, and Future Sight are, in a way, comparable enchantments.  But Dream Halls is the only one there that really doesn't give you any more cards.  You are stuck with what you have.  If you are looking for another bomb enchantment, I would use Future Sight first, but I wouldn't use that either, because of the mana cost.  If you must have something, I'd prefer the Vampiric Tutor to make sure I get Bargain, because that's what you really want anyway.

@Smmenen, another thing I was thinking about with Swarms is that they are as much of a business spell as a draw 7 in that the control deck has to counter it or lose.  So if they spend their Force on the Swarm with the assumption that they must play under that, if you're playing Swarm, you have the stuff you need to win next turn, your turn 2 draw 7 happens in the same way as it would have if that Swarm had been a turn 1 draw 7.  They have still used one counter already on what appears a must counter or lose spell.  There are major differences, though.  

With Swarm you don't need to dump extra cards turn 1 to produce enough mana for a draw 7.  It is much better to force the opponent to operate on as little information as possible.  If you play land, Mox, Mox, draw 7 and they Force it, you've potentially got 3 seriously threats left.  If you play land, Swarm and they Force it, you've potentially got 5 serious threats left.  So they have to Force the Swarm and then they have to worry about possibly needing five more Forces in their hand.  So that two mana difference in casting costs means a two card difference in your hand size when the opponent has to counter.

There's also the obvious fact that you want as many must counters as possible.  Since all draw 7s but Returns are restricted, the next logical must counter spell to put in the deck is Swarms.  You say this deck doesn't want to set up the combo turn, but playing a first turn draw 7 that you expect to be countered just so you can bait the counter and force through a second or third turn draw 7 is also a form of setting up the combo turn.  You just spend more cards and mana to do it, and with less certainty than you would with Swarms.
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