[Discussion] 7/10

[TrixR4Kidz]

I'm actually not netdecking, I've made my own version of 7/10, and it's running pretty well so far, i'm going to be taking it to a tourny tomorrow, so i'll let you know how I do with it, so don't assume that i'm randomly netdecking, that is of course, if you were directing it towards me.  I think your going a little overboard saying it's the worst arguement you have ever seen, apparently you haven't argued alot, cuz i've seen some stupid arguements.  Yea it makes me look so stupid, yet your ranting, taking personal shots at me, so how am I the one who looks stupid?

[Plognark]

Well, whatever the case is....i'll see you at pittsfield

And to add more content to this post, I agree that strip/wastes are practically a requirement in this deck. There are far too many lands that sundering titan doesn't touch, and this deck (at least the versions presented) seems to need a serious amount of disruption to get moving.

[Triple_S]

Sure, a decklist will be forthcoming in a month (probably the week after GenCon) unless SCG posts it first.

[Plognark]

Sure, a decklist will be forthcoming in a month (probably the week after GenCon) unless SCG posts it first.

Hehe....ok, fair enough  

[BreathWeapon]

How is Crucible>Blood Moon vs Fish and 4cc? 1 is a 2 Card Combo that takes 2-3 turns to be felt, and it's an Artifact making it more susceptible to removal. Blood Moon instantly hoses the opponent's entire Manabase no questions asked. There are far less BeBs in the environment than Artifact Removal.

Also, Wastelanding after Sundering Titan resolves seems like Over Kill. Trinisphere "should" prevent them from TDing a Plow etc. I can't recall too many of those situations popping up. Even if they some how manage to eliminate Titan, they are going to lose Land again. I really don't think that's a strong argument for the inclusion of Wasteland, what you do after Titan resolves isn't all that important usually.

@Wollbad

Vs Fish, not being able to Strip the opponent's Manlands isn't a huge problem. Once you resolve Titan, you neutralize the surrounding Mana Sources supporting them and move in with FAT. It's often a simple race to the finish line. I'm also currently boarding Tsabo's Web and Blood Moon, to deal with those situations.

Vs Stax or Slavery etc, the battle is won over Welders, The Manabase and Draw Engines. The Sundering Titan tends to be insignificant in these games. I'm really not concentrating on the Shop Mirror right now, because 4cc and Fish are Enemy #1.

Vs Landstill, Landstill just owns Workshop period. I don't think Wasteland or Gilded Lotus would make any difference. Disk SUCKS and Fire/Bolt is too much.

@Wu

The entire point of this thread was to simply open up some civilized discussion on 7/10. I never at any point said that my build was the best, so how can you sit back and reply to almost every point I've made with nothing more than "Wasteland is AWESOME," "Metalworker is ASS" and "Play my list and you'll see." Nothing you've presented is an actual argument in this thread supported by actual reasoning.

I haven't had enough time, in the span of half a day at best, to fully play test your list. I've had 4 games vs Keeper and some Gold Fishes, and I ran into the same problems I experienced before with Gilded Lotus. Vs Fow/Strip or Shaman/Strip the Gilded Lotus is incredibly difficult to resolve, and sends the entire deck into TD Mode. Here, Wastelands hopefuly buy enough time to TD a Shop or 2 Mana Accelerants to Hard Cast the Loti. This happend to me twice, and I'm almost certain that if I had replaced Waste with Tomb and Gilded Lotus with Metalworker I would have had a better shot. I didn't have the Draw Power to keep up the steam under a lock and strengthen my Mulligans with out the D7s in the 2 games I lost. With Tomb gone, I was almost entirely dependant on Shop to resolve 1st Turn Trinispheres and Chalice (2) v Control, in Gold Fish mode.

I think it's relatively childish of you just to say "You have no experience with this deck and it shows in spades." I just look at the Deck differently than you do, almost strictly in the terms of how 7/10 generates its Tempo. We are both trying to achieve the same effects through 2 entirely different ends of the spectrum. If one is better than the other so be it, but all I can do is post my list and share my experience with the deck. If that experience differs from yours, fine. I've had better results with Tombs/Workers than Wastes/Loti, generating more Mana has had provided greater consistancy. Other than that, you use Tutors where I use D7s and that's the only other significant difference between our lists IMO.

[Hi-Val]

These decks are terribly out of date compared to the recent technology unveiled at SCG.  While no straightahead 7/10 deck did top 8 (Short Bus had 2 members with our build get screwed on tie breaks and finished in 9th and 10th places going 6-1-1) the new deck is much more consistent, powerful, and gamebreaking than the lists detailed here.  I know SCG published the t8 decklists, I don't know if the entire field will be published or not.  If they are published, take a gander at what Short Bus ran and go from there.  I'm not tooting our own horn, but suffice to say we have probably done a LOT more testing with the builds than you have.

Also, it might be interesting to look at my deck at 7th place in the SCG tournament. I hear FOW, Mana Drain and Will are some good in decks.

[Triple_S]

I would agree w/ that...I think the decks are evolving to a more consistent and powerful force.

[BreathWeapon]

It's probably worth its own thread, but if you'd like to explain your card choices and how the deck plays go for it.

[Razvan]

Back in the days of Stax, I used to play with 3 Karn's in the deck. This allowed me to drop one very early, and go to town, and not care if he got StPed, or whatever.

Since then, my liking of him has fallen of drastically, primarily in Stax, and especially since Stax has evolved towards Slaver. As a kill condition, he is great, especially since he can win the game the turn he comes into play (a couple of Lotii, some 3cc artifacts, good game). Still, he does nothing in Slavery builds.

7/10, however, is vastly different. It's all about the mana disruption. It's not TnT, people. I, myself, run Gorilla Shamans maindeck at the moment, and they are fantastic. They can kill more than just moxen (barely), and are cheaper. If i wasn't running Shamans, i'd be running Karns.

And yes, without Wastelands, the deck loses a lot of its potency. A lot. I would never ever consider running any Workshop deck without 5 Strips. Even when I ran straight Workshop Slavery (during the Memnarch days, before the Smemnarch days), I still ran as many as I could (variable, 3->5, and it was a lot stronger with 5).

Mana disruption is the name of this game. Learn it well.

As for Lotus vs. Metalworker, wu is right. You need to enable Tap->Thirst for Knowledge or Tap->Draw 7. Metalworker doesn't do that. The extra colored mana is huge, especially after SBing, where you generally have 12-15 colored cards.

[riggy]

Still, he does nothing in Slavery builds.

I've been running Karn as a one-of in my slavery build for about 2 months. Recurring a slaver ad infinitum isn't always the most feasible possiblity. I will often slave once or twice and if things look good (which they usually do), I can then swinging with the Slaver and a Lotus for the win.

Mana disruption is the name of this game. Learn it well.

A second turn Karn is an excellent choice since by that point you likely can't activate a slaver or drop a Titan,  but you can drop a karn and eat a mox or two. Karn is more expensive than a mox monkey, but functions beyond a mana muncher, too.

In the mirror, he also blocks Sundering Titans, much better than anything else in the standard slaver builds (sans pentavites).

EDIT: The above line is irrelevant since I let my train of thought go towards the line about slavery. Sorry for the mismatch. Still, the point is valid since Karn can block Titans just fine.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Ok, so lemme start of by listing my deck:

3 Sundering Titan
2 Triskelion
1 Memnarch
1 Platinum Angel
1 Darksteel Collosus
4 Goblin Welder

4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Timetwister
1 Memory Jar
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Tinker

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Force of Will

4 Mishra’s Workshop
2 Glimmervoid
2 City of Brass
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Shivan Reef
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
3 Gilded Lotus

I know, I know....a net deck, but hey, it works. I'm LOVING the DC, it's amazing and just wins games by itself. Props to Godot for convincing me to run it. My question is this: Is it worth it to splash for will? Will is such a strong card, and in a deck like this, which can generate an ASS load of mana, Will can simply be AMAZING late game. I think I would cut a Memnarch/Platinum angel for it, or perhaps wheel......The manabase wouldn't change too much, however, up the city count to 4, and perhaps one more void (though it's probably unnecessary). I don't know if it's worth the splash, but I think it is. swapping 2 reefs for 2 cities shouldn't change much. Thoughts?

[BreathWeapon]

I strongly suggest you remove Brainstorm and Force of Will for Additional Mana Sources and Trinispheres. BS/FoW will do absolutely nothing to improve the Fish match up, Keeper match up or even Combo match up. Simply substituting Slavers for Titans doesn't work.

If you want to utilize Yawgmoth's Will, nothing is there to stop you. The deck can easily support a full compliment of City of Brass, and if you use Trinisphere GlimmerVoid very stable.

I suggest picking up Wu's build and playtesting it, with modifcations to the Draw Engine and a MD Duplicant for Exalted Angel. What it lacks in consistancey it makes up for in Raw Power. Trinisphere and Wastland win so many games it's ridiculous. I also got tired of getting Metalworker PWNed by Lavamancer, so I'm back to Gilded Lotus. I'm Mulliganing more than I'd like, but that's Magic for you.

[SpiritDeed]

In the 7/10 deck I was playtesting I used Winter Orb, 4 Glimmervoids, and I also ran Panoptic Mirror to use the spells like Tinker over and over again.

Just my input.

[wuaffiliate]

This isn't the casual forum.

[TrixR4Kidz]

Ok, I am playtesting around with my version of 7/10 which is so far producing really good results, except for a stupid tourny where I got killed turn 2 by foodchain goblins??????? and killed by draw7 on turn 1 and 2 both games... not cool, So I feel like I didn't really get to express how good I believe the deck is, here is a list of what i'm currently running, feel free to give opinions and suggestions of what you would do, it's a modified 7/10 build, that i've mainly tested against 4Cc, and fish, it handles fish fairly easily and 4Cc is about 50/50.


TST 7/10:

Mana: 29
7 SoLoMoxen
3 Gilded Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana vault
3 Shivan Reef
2 Volcanic Islands
1 Glimmervoid
1 City of brass
4 Mishra's Workshops
5 Strips
1 Tolarian Academy


Fatties: 10
4 Juggernaut
2 Sundering Titan
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Triskelion
1 Duplicant
1 Darksteel Colossus

Brokeness: 15
4 Thirst for knowledge
4 Joblin Welders
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Timewalk

The Glue: 6
4 Trinisphere
2 Cruicible



Discuss.

[Moxlotus]

Fish can deal with Juggies pretty easily-Mishra's Factory.  Su-Chi is harder for them to kill, but the risk of Fireblasting yourself is there.  Razormane Masticore is a house against Fish, it flat out wins games.

[Triple_S]

I'd run Synod Centurion over Su Chi

[TrixR4Kidz]

Juggies are alot better then su-chi like you just said you can get fireblasted for nothing, and he has smaller power, who cares if he dies to a factory, then it kills a factory....and you can weld him back in or play another threat, and about razormane masticore, he is a house and should definately be played maindeck now a days with all the madness and fish running around I think he's so pro, he also works nicely with welder on the board or crucible