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Author Topic: [deck] Crushing Chamber-Mono Brown aggro  (Read 25159 times)
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« on: July 26, 2004, 08:56:00 am »

About a month ago JDawg13 and I began working on a deck based on the synergy between Arcbound Crusher and Type one decks.  I guess I should be more descriptive.  In type one people are very likely to play lots of artifacts.  Arcbound Crusher gets bigger when people play artifacts.  It tramples too.  Think of it as a Gro deck with cheap/free artifacts instead of cantrips and Genesis Chamber-Scullclamp as an engine.  So the deck’s primary goal is go drop a Crusher early and get it big as quickly as possible.  Then you turn fat men sideways.

Without further ado here’s the list.

//Mana (26)
4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 Mishra’s Factory
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy

7 Solomoxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault

//Creatures (16)
4 Arcbound Crusher
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Ornithopter

//Lock (6)
4 Sphere of Resistence
2 Crucible of Worlds

//Engine (7)
3 Genesis Chamber
4 Skullclamp

//Other (5)
4 Cranial Plating
1 Memory Jar

We’re still looking at the sideboard.  There are obviously a lot of options for a workshop deck in Type One so it should be tunable to your meta.  I generally use something like this though:

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Tormond’s Crypt
3 Triskelion
5 Metagame slots (I’m experimenting with 4x Sundering Titan here for the 4 color matchup.  Another option was Juntu Stakes to shut off opposing Welders and Fish)

About the cards:
Mana:
The mana base is fairly basic.  Workshops and Tombs help speed out the early fat and disruption elements.  Strip effects have tremendous synergy with Crucible as I’m sure everyone on these boards has noticed so once we added the Crucible those went right in.  Jacob Orlove recommended Mishra’s Factory to us when we showed him the list without it.  How we missed a card with that much synergy with the deck still amazes me but that’s why you include people outside your design team at a certain point in the process.  Factories store counters, build affinity, pump Plating, apply beats and chump block with a crucible in play.  Yeah, we were dumb.

Creatures:
The Creatures are a little more interesting, but not much.  The Clamp-Chamber engine dictates that we play a lot of creatures and the Crusher dictates that they be as close to free as possible.  Given this affinity seems like a natural choice here.  Ornithopter seems like the only strange choice.  One major turn in our design process was the Star City Games Power 9 tournament at which I took an inferior build of this deck to 14th place.  I say that the build was inferior because of the presence of Arcbound Ravagers in the deck.  Testing had already shown that with the exception of a few corner cases (artifact mutation) Ravager was clearly the worst creature in the deck.  Replacing them with Ornithopters was a big improvement.  Ornithopter flies over other aggro decks allowing you to take to the sky and race them, blocks cloud of fairies forever, costs nothing and puts counters on the Crusher.  Also how cool is it that replacing Ravager with Ornithopter actually helped the deck? :lol:

Lock Parts:
Lock parts are necessary to hold off combo decks and help enormously against control.  Holding off Drain for an extra turn or stopping storm combo/belcher is very important.  Getting your turn two Enforcer drained isn’t good.  Strips also help you keep back the dreaded face up angel  Sphere of Resistance beat out Trinisphere because Sphere does not Nuter affinity.  Spheres add one and then subtract one for affinity purposes so they simply don’t count as an artifact.  The synergies with Crucible of Worlds are mentioned above and I’ll just mention here that apart from the Wasteland and Mishra’s Factory synergy Crucible also has a fantastic stabilizing effect on the mana base.  Playing with Workshops means that you are playing 5 lands that just cry out for destruction.  Crucible helps to alleviate that problem.

The Engine:
Unlike Dryad decks this deck does not get to draw cards off the things that give the Crusher counters.  Instead it needs an engine that is both synergistic with the deck and at the same time powerful.  Genesis Chamber provides incredible synergy with a deck built solely to abuse the number of artifacts either in play or coming into play in any game.  Tokens from the Chamber pump the Crusher, pump the Plating, make your affinity stuff cheaper and clamp to draw you cards.  Notice that the Crusher gets a counter off the Chamber regardless of the order in which they come into play.  Skullclamp helps protect you against the random board sweepers that can be a problem for this deck.  With the Chamber it also turns all your creatures into mini ancestrals.  The Clamp also makes your creatures better blockers in the rare event that they are forced to block.

The Other Stuff:
Memory Jar is broken.  Nothing about this deck makes it not broken.  Cranial Plating is insanely good.  This deck contains 43 artifacts.  Only 5 of them cost more then 3 mana.  3 of them exist only to pump out free artifacts.  All of this leads to the Plating adding +5/+0 or better in almost all cases by the end of turn 2-3.  When coupled with a Crusher it just gets better.

Matchups:
4cControl: The 4 color matchup is close to even preboard but they get Rack and Ruin out of the board and we’re still looking for our sideboard answer to this deck.  If we get a quick opening hand they generally need balance to stabilize but that generally requires them to pitch their whole hand and you have more threats then they do.  Drain into an Angel can be a big problem, but strips can help to keep them off white and if you resolve a Plating that Angel may be put on guard duty before long.  Speed and redundant sources of damage are the keys to this matchup but that isn’t always enough.  I’d call it 60-40 them over all at this point but we’re looking for ways to improve this one.

U/r Fish: Your creatures are bigger then theirs.  Your blockers stop their fliers.  You are resistant to Null Rod and also to Strip effects.  Remember you have time in this matchup.  Build up your artifacts, play some big guys for free if possible plate something before Null rod hits.  Remember that the Crusher is totally unaffected by Null Rod.  With all that said Fish still isn’t a walk in the park but it’s still a favorable matchup.

Draw7: Get a sphere down first turn.  Fear the EOT Hurkyl’s Recall for the win.  That’s basically all there is to say about this match.  If you can slow them down with spheres or they stall out and get left with very little in hand you can pull off the win but those cases are still pretty rare.  The best plan is to go Suicidal.  Tap tombs for all they’re worth.  Your life total is largely unimportant in this matchup so the main point is to reduce theirs as quickly as possible.

Belcher: Win the die roll or get a sphere before they get enough mana go to off.  Strip their land if you see it.  That’s basically it though since we can’t run Force of Will.

Dragon: Hold them off for one turn and you win.  You CAN race them if you are playing first and have a good hand but it’s generally not the best plan.  Use that strip/sphere to slow them down and you should be able to make the turn 3-4 kill.

Stax/Mud: These matchups are extremely favorable.  You play enough permanents to render their lock parts largely ineffectual and Crucible pwns Smokestack when you don’t want to use it to draw cards off a skull clamp.  When they play artifacts your Crusher gets bigger.  They don’t play enough creatures to stop you.  Keep your artifacts away from graveyards and remember that Tormond’s Crypt can target you as well as them.  Keep your yard clean or fear the Welder.

Tog: Play the aggro with your redundant beatsticks and go after their mana base.  Try to drop an Enforcer before they get a Deed into play.  Ornithopters can fly over Tog’s head while he snaps his teeth in frustration all day for all you care if you are really worried about this matchup Forcefield in the sideboard is just brutal for tog.

GaT: Be aggressive.  Attack their mana base with strips and spheres.  Dropping an early Crusher can make them somewhat leery of dropping Moxen to help support their mana, but as always against GaT, Yawg’s Will can send a Beserked Tog or Dryad crawling up your ass before you can make the kill.  Once again Forcefield is a possible sideboard option, chalice of the void is probably enough when added to the spheres/strips-crucible though.

7/10: This matchup is interesting.  Generally attacking their mana base and dropping Ornithopter+Plating means you win.  They play enough artifacts that an early Crusher can be turned into a win rather quickly as well.  The only match I’ve lost to this deck in tournament play was when they hit me with main deck Artifact Mutation in game one allowing them to weld out my plating. This made my Lethal Ornithopter somewhat less so.  They also play the Crucible-Strip lock most of the time and you should worry about that if you see it too.  Once again keep your artifacts away from graveyards and remember that Tormond’s Crypt can target you as well as them.  Keep your yard clean or fear the Welder.  It’s close but you should win it most of the time.

So there it is.  Please discuss and offer any criticism/suggestions you may have.  Jaris and I will do our best to answer them.

Hale
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« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2004, 09:44:53 am »

First, it was a pleasure meeting you this weekend Hale at the Pittsfield power tourny (I was the kid in the Iron Man hat who you let look through your deck right before top 8). Congrats on getting that far. I have tossed around a couple builds involving crusher before, but never really stuck with it the way you have.

Second, this deck looks like a beast. I understand taking out the arcbound ravagers (although it seem quite insane) as they do not have the greatest synergy in the world with cranial plating. Personally I would look to possibly putting some in the board, as I'm sure they increase your goldfish and are pure gems in matchups where your opponent doesn't SB or MD null rods. Would it be possible to fit another Crucible into the SB, as three gives you a better chance to see one early (which I am assuming this deck does liek to see)?

Triskelion looks like a strong choice for the SB; could it possibly become a MD candidate? As for other SB options, the sundering titan seems *kind* of weak. Yes, it is very good against most control decks, especially 4cControl, but you have no way to "power it out" via welder unlike 99% of the other decks that play him. He's definately worth the 8 mana, but from looking at this deck, how often would you have 8 mana and not *already* have board position? I think it is a win more card here, unless you're specifically considering him for late game situations, but this deck doesn't look like one that wants to get into the late game with control decks.

Juntu Stakes looks like a TOTAL bomb against fish and opposing welders; It is totally out of left field and would always be unexpected. The only forseeable problem I see with it is that it battles with Chalice for 2, which is a renown play against fish. The lacking sideboard options stem from the MUD manabase, which brings us to the next question....

Is this better WITHOUT a single-color splash? Is this better WITHOUT multiple colors?

At first glance the multiple colors answer seems like a no go, as it will greatly reduce your artifact count, thus making your major kill card of crusher alot weaker. So strike that option. A singular color splash (while not necessary) seems like it would do this deck a whole lot of good. The basic choices would (in my opinion) be red, blue, black. Red gives you access to welders, another draw 7, and some cards that are damn good at blowing up opposing artifacts like null rod. Blue gives us tinker, ancestral, and time walk (all exceeding broken spells) and other draw engine possibilities (which probably will not be used, but it gives the option). Black gives us the tutors and disciple of the vault. I personally believe that weighing the MUD version vs. a 1-color splash will result in favor for the splash, simply because sacrificing a couple of artifacts MD for utter brokenness will yield a better outcome 9/10 times.

Seeing as this is your brainchild, and you may have likely tested all three of these colors in this deck, I hope to hear what your thoughts were on them and if their brokenness outweighs the loss of several artifacts.
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« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2004, 10:07:22 am »

Quote
7/10: This matchup is interesting. Generally attacking their mana base and dropping Ornithopter+Plating means you win. They play enough artifacts that an early Crusher can be turned into a win rather quickly as well. The only match I’ve lost to this deck in tournament play was when they hit me with main deck Artifact Mutation in game one allowing them to weld out my plating. This made my Lethal Ornithopter somewhat less so. They also play the Crucible-Strip lock most of the time and you should worry about that if you see it too. Once again keep your artifacts away from graveyards and remember that Tormond’s Crypt can target you as well as them. Keep your yard clean or fear the Welder. It’s close but you should win it most of the time.


Yeahhh....that was me with the evil, evil artifact mutation maindeck. Wink

You're right about keeping your graveyard clear when facing welder decks. Once I was able to kill that crusher game one I was able to swap all sorts of things on you with my welder, it shut you down pretty hard. I'd almost go so far as to say you want to crypt yourself to avoid it.

In spite of that, the game 2 17/1 ornithopter wins you some serious style points. I would have survived the hit had you not activated the factories, giving the sucker an extra 4 power. I was sitting there thinking "Please don't activate the factories, Please don't activate the factories, Please don't activate the factories....s***, he activated the factories  Crying or Very sad ."

It might be better to splash red for your own welders. The welders also synergy with the crushers, getting artifacts in and out of play to build them up, and even work with genesis chamber to pump out more myr weenies and get even bigger crushers. They also let you dick with other artifact decks, kind of like how I hosed your 7/7 frogmite game 1.
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« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2004, 10:20:59 am »

Hale you forgot your FCG matchup (heh). Another creature to consider would be the 3/3 flying indestructible. A beast for fish to deal with and at 7 mana that is a 2/3 turn critter. One of the problems with this is the fact that it screams counter me or die to cranial plated flying thing.
http://www.wizards.com/magic/autocard.asp?name=Darksteel%20Gargoyle
It also helps in the fish match.
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« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2004, 10:23:05 am »

Actually our problem wasn't the lack of brokenness but more the succeptability to null rod.  Adding colors means you have to play either basics in those colors or adding artifact lands in those colors.  The Ancient Tomb slots are where I would begin this type of expiramentation.  We looked at artifact lands and decided that they make you too succeptable to null rod and you frequently need the extra mana from a first turn tomb to power out your fat.  I also tried glimmer void in this slot and ran into the same issue.

You hit most of the major points for adding colors but I just want to add that Black also would give us Yawg Will, which I think should be huge but random, similar to memory jar in the deck, and also has alot of synergy with cranial plating (instant speed equip is MEAN). Phyrexian Tower would be a good land for black mana as well because you can use it to power your card draw by saccing clamped creatures if you don't have like 5 tokens just sitting there waiting to be sacced.

Aether vial would be an option for adding red if you were only going to put in welders but that's 7-8 slots and the main deck is pretty tight.

Blue is only 3-4 non mana slots but it's problem is the Artifact land issue mentioned above.  Originally we tried this using Time Walk, Ancestral and Tinker.  This was prior to the addition of Strips, Factories and Crucible of Worlds.  The only part of this plan I didn't like was the succeptability to nullrod issue.

If I were to add a splash at this point I would go with either Black or Blue even though welders are SO tempting.  I may end up replacing a tomb with the tower anyway and then looking at the splash as -2 Tomb, +2 vault of Whispers is no where near as bad.  I'll certainly have to look at this again though.  Sideboard options are also a good thing.

Hale
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« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2004, 10:31:47 am »

Interesting deck. I'm working on something similar, but my men are totally different. I use Arcbound Ravagers and Sliths, and Sword of Fire and Ice as a way of drawing cards and killing Welders.

I really don't like Ornithopter in this deck. I know you say Ravagers are weak, but that's because Triskelion is not maindeck. These two together are SUPERB - sac everything to Ravager, sac the Ravager, put all the counters on Trike...thank you, that's about 15 damage or something. You don't need Ornithopter - Trike pings their more dangerous creatures (e.g. Warchief, Welder, sometimes an early Dryad, and a morph). Ornithopter (and, to a lesser extent, Frogmite) is a mis-assignment of your game role. You are the beatdown against almost anything except combo and FCG - this includes Fish. Having a creature that blocks some curious Faeries must be suboptimal, when there are bigger creatures around.

Oh, and the obvious point that having bigger creatures means you don't give two shits about Null Rod, realistically; you're too big for anything short of Madness creatures to beat you.

I'm also unsure about the Genesis Chamber/Clamp engine. Granted, it's a lot of cards - but I'm not sure if it's the right way to play. In this deck, with Frogmites and Ornithopters, it's fine, but a better plan is to play with Juggernauts and other larger creatures; it makes it almost unnecessary to have a powerful draw engine, as your creatures are big enough that it just doesn't matter. The only realistic way to play against it is to Balance (which only 4cControl runs, so I pack Clamp in the SB to deal with that and Welders) - Deed won't get big enough fast enough, unless you walk into a Drain.

Lastly, have you found Sphere of Resistance to be better than Trinisphere? It doesn't affect you too badly at all (especially if you were running Metalworker, which is something that gives some seriously broken plays), but in particular the threat of a turn-1 sphere is enough to force decks to mulligan more aggressively; they need a Force for it, and Forcing a 3Sphere means they can't counter one of your real threats.
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« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2004, 11:07:35 am »

@ combo_dude:
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the game 2 17/1 ornithopter wins you some serious style points.

I mostly use my Ornithopters offensively.  Plated ornithopters aren't a side benefit in this deck, they are the plan.  This deck has two main kill methods:
Plan A: drop a turn one crusher, follow it up with cheap artifacts
Plan B: drop a Ornithopter, plate him up and turn him sideways.  This is routinely how I kill 7/10.

Flying over togs, dryads, titans, karn, etc. is better then tapping of a bajilion mana once.

You don't need the metalworkers if you are going to play affinity.  This deck plays it's whole hand by turn two or so anyway.

I agree with your assessment of the who's the beatdown question for this deck though.  It's pretty simple.  I'm the beatdown.  I'm actually the beatdown against FCG in game one as well.  They can combo you out, but there's not much you can do about it game one except kill them before they can.  Your beatdown plan is better then theirs.  I've tested the FCG matchup extensively and it is favorable because you cut off their beat down plan.  They HAVE to combo you out, which means they have to sit there holding a green source, or not breaking a fetch until they get a food chain.  Durring that time you can just go for the kill.

Your point about Null Rod though is not true.  Decks packing a full compliment of Strips as well as Null Rods maindeck (FISH) used to beat us up.  A turn two nullrod can shut off your access to the bigger creatures in your deck if you don't have the affinity guys and your 1/1-3/3 Sliths look kinda dumb when they are being held off by a mishra's factory.  Affinity makes the Fish matchup much better and doesn't hurt your other matchups.  Also Affinity has more synergy with the Crusher and with the Plating.

I'm well aware of the synergy between Ravager and Triskelion, but I don't think it has a place in this deck.  It's a cute trick, but it's not really good enough.  There's a TON of dissynergy between ravager and plating.  Plating is clearly better in my testing so it gets the nod.  Trikes are cool, but I'm winning the games where their utility is helpful pre board anyway.  Post board they allow me to add another trick to my deck, but they aren't necessary.  Also 6 mana is alot when faced with a deck like Fish or Stax.  I have hugely favorable matchups against those two decks right now, which I imagine your build has more troubble with.

@Frappie: See point about 6 mana being too much for Trike.  7 is way too much for a 3/3 even if it is an indistructable flyer.
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« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2004, 11:56:48 am »

I just want to note that the sphere of resistance did more to me than trinisphere would have. Running 7/10, a lot of my deck is already expensive, and the sphere did hold off some of my big stuff for an extra turn or two. It's also going to come out turn one more consistently than trinisphere (land + mox or even a single sol ring/mana crypt, etc.) and his affinity count just needs to be one higher to ignore its effects. Trinisphere would make his frogmites and enforcers cost 3 no matter what.
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« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2004, 12:48:40 pm »

I played against you this past weekend at the Pittsfield, MA tourny.  I was using 4cc and it was a very interesting match.  I think your analysis of the 60-40 is correct.  You appeared to have the advantage but just the small fact that there is no colored mana is what gives 4cc the edge over you.  It was also odd in the second game how Sphere of Resistance was hurting you more than me.  I would definetly play it over trinispere in your deck.  The trinisphere is good but the sphere of resistance is just so much better for you.  

Crucible is definetly the card that lost you our match.  If I can power it out first then I just destroy your mana base.  With your lack of counters I don't have to worry about resolving my own threats.  I just have to worry about yours, ex. Crucible of Worlds.  It is just to good and it is insane in this deck.  For the sideboard I feel the Sundering Titans are a good choice.  It is not hard for you to get them out.  I noticed you always had so much many and always had Mishra's Workshop when they were required.  The 4cc match looks to be a difficult one and Titan seems to be a good choice.

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« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2004, 08:11:46 am »

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@ combo_dude:
Quote
the game 2 17/1 ornithopter wins you some serious style points.

I mostly use my Ornithopters offensively.  Plated ornithopters aren't a side benefit in this deck, they are the plan.  This deck has two main kill methods:
Plan A: drop a turn one crusher, follow it up with cheap artifacts
Plan B: drop a Ornithopter, plate him up and turn him sideways.  This is routinely how I kill 7/10.

Flying over togs, dryads, titans, karn, etc. is better then tapping of a bajilion mana once.

You don't need the metalworkers if you are going to play affinity.  This deck plays it's whole hand by turn two or so anyway.

I agree with your assessment of the who's the beatdown question for this deck though.  It's pretty simple.  I'm the beatdown.  I'm actually the beatdown against FCG in game one as well.  They can combo you out, but there's not much you can do about it game one except kill them before they can.  Your beatdown plan is better then theirs.  I've tested the FCG matchup extensively and it is favorable because you cut off their beat down plan.  They HAVE to combo you out, which means they have to sit there holding a green source, or not breaking a fetch until they get a food chain.  Durring that time you can just go for the kill.

Your point about Null Rod though is not true.  Decks packing a full compliment of Strips as well as Null Rods maindeck (FISH) used to beat us up.  A turn two nullrod can shut off your access to the bigger creatures in your deck if you don't have the affinity guys and your 1/1-3/3 Sliths look kinda dumb when they are being held off by a mishra's factory.  Affinity makes the Fish matchup much better and doesn't hurt your other matchups.  Also Affinity has more synergy with the Crusher and with the Plating.

I'm well aware of the synergy between Ravager and Triskelion, but I don't think it has a place in this deck.  It's a cute trick, but it's not really good enough.  There's a TON of dissynergy between ravager and plating.  Plating is clearly better in my testing so it gets the nod.  Trikes are cool, but I'm winning the games where their utility is helpful pre board anyway.  Post board they allow me to add another trick to my deck, but they aren't necessary.  Also 6 mana is alot when faced with a deck like Fish or Stax.  I have hugely favorable matchups against those two decks right now, which I imagine your build has more trouble with.


I think that we're disagreeing because we have totally different takes on the deck. Your Ornithopter plan is useful because you don't have Ravagers (which make the idea of blocking useless, as they still get their damage through); Sphere of Resistance is better for you because you have the Affinity creature base whereas I accelerate into creatures with Metalworker; and I use Juggernaut as my most dangerous beatstick, as opposed to Crusher or Enforcer.

As a slight aside, as I'm based in the UK, Fish is not the force it is in the US, so there's less need to take the deck in a different direction in anticipation of it. It still isn't too great though - Standstill can hurt, as can Null Rod, but their creatures are not things I worry about at all. The deck that hurts more is Dragon, but I tend to split about 50-50 with it post-board (they almost always win pre-board, barring a Crucible lock; even then I need to get lucky) due to Crypts and an attack on their mana base.
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« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2004, 08:26:09 am »

In further testing last night I have once again discarded black as a splash color for this deck.  The only way I could see fitting it in at this point would be to cut the clamps and add 4x chains of mephistopholes and totally rework the mana.  I guess that's do able, but I don't really like it as I think it will put too much strain on the overall power of the manabase and the deck's ability to lay a turn one threat.

EDIT:  RE: Ravagers vs Thopters and blocking.  Ravagers get their damage through once.  Thopters allow you to deal damage = to artifacts in play MULTIPLE turns in a row without costing yourself your board.  They are clearly superior in my mind as a beater because of that.  Also you can Doubble plate a Thopter and still be assured the damage will all go through thus getting 2x artifacts in play damage which is impossible with a Ravager.  Having played extensively with both I am positive that the Thopter is better in this deck.  Ravager is good in corner cases like vs. Artifact Mutation, Thopter is good against decks with life totals.

I'm currently 6-2 in games against dragon in tournament play.  I've only lost one game 1 in three matches.  I went on to win games two and three of that match.  I view Dragon as a slightly favorable matchup for the current configuration because you only need to slow them down by about one turn, which this deck generally does without missing a beat.  I've acutally forced Dragon players to use necromancy on my dead/countered creatures to generate blockers.
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« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2004, 12:13:44 am »

Metalworker?  With so many artifacts it could be a serious mana engine.  What about Myr Incubator?  I dunno. . . I play mono brown sometimes, but I basically play it as aggro (workshop, metalworker 2nd turn Darksteel colossus, swing.)

What about glimmervoid to allow the splash(es)?
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« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2004, 07:13:36 am »

The problem with glimmervoid is that it only produces one mana.

The problem with your metalworker-->colossus plan is that it requires you to play the colossus which, without tinker, will never come out early enough to avoid Mana Drain.  If I was going to play something that costs 11 it'd be microsynth golem.  Metalworker just doesn't do enough for this deck.  I've tested this idea for a long time.  The deck goes off without metalworkers, so why waste a turn casting one?
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« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2004, 04:16:11 pm »

I've never seen the deck play so I can't say.  Just thought it might be a way to abuse the abundance of artifacts in the deck.
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« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2004, 03:35:55 pm »

What do you think, can this deck be played on a budget without workshops and p9? (ignore null rod and play artifact lands)
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« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2004, 03:53:17 pm »

EDIT: Removed guess about budgetability of this deck.

inserted the following:

This deck basically requires workshops and power to be fast enough to be viable.  Jaris and I talked about this tonight and have come to the realization that Null Rod just destroys you if you don't have the shops.  Also the removal of the Workshops and the moxen means that you take a full 2-3 extra turns to get the Crusher on line.  I think if you are on a budget and want to play an aggro deck you should go with something else.  I Do recomend this deck for 5-10 proxie environments though because outside of the 5 moxen, the lotus, and the workshops the deck costs all of about $20 to build since virtually the entire thing is uncommons from current sets.  If I were building this deck for 5 proxie I would proxie 4 workshops and a mox, play lotus petal, mox diamond and up the land count by adding Ancient tombs and Cities of Traitors.

I did test LED as a possible mana source.  It isn't bad.  If I were really on a budget I would definately consider it.  Also if you don't have a Mana Crypt I would definately proxie that before a mox.  I think the Artifact mana probably goes in this order:
Mana Crypt
Moxen
Lotus

Sorry about the mistaken budget claims. Embarassed

Hale
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« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2004, 04:35:13 pm »

this deck seems really strong. i have played variations, and to me it seems as if this is the next 4 LED madness deck, or much like a FCG. the fat is huge, the combo aspect of this deck is easy to reach, and in general you can out combo aggro, and are capable of racing with combo. i have played and lost many times to this deck, and a turn 2, turn 3 win is highly probable, especially when cranial plating suddenly appears. if this deck is as strong as i think, maybe workshops will get restricted again =)

just way too much stuff to counter...
do you the 4x clamps? the crusher? the free insta fat enforcer?
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« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2004, 08:46:22 pm »

Quote from: effang
if this deck is as strong as i think, maybe workshops will get restricted again =)


Thanks for the high praise, Hale and I have worked really hard on bringing the deck to where it is today.  However, regardless of how strong this deck might be, I really don't see Workshops getting restricted any time soon.  The metagame right now is incredibly healthy with a vast quantity of viable archetypes, Workshop decks included.  And on a more personal note, I'd rather you not go asking for restrictions before I get a chance to play the deck in a tournament. Smile
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« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2004, 03:56:18 am »

This is an extremely interesting deck.

If you turn a Mishra's Factory into a Factory Worker will activate either Arcbound Crusher's +1/+1 or Genesis Chamber's token creation? (I don't know if it's considered as entering play) If it would, that's way mad.

I love the Cranial Platings, especially in conjunction with Ornithopter or Crusher. Plus the plating has uses with Mishra's Factory if there's nothing else on the board. Brilliant.

Obviously Crucible/Wasteland is good. I predict things may possibly degerate into every deck either running that combo or being fast enough to not worry about it.

Have you any plans about what/how to side against something like FCG which can, for one, outnumber you creature-wise and therefore take more advantage of Genesis Chamber (if you don't have a Crusher in play)? Something to tap the Chamber might be neat, like Lodestone Myr or perhaps something more like Silent Arbiter to prevent mass attacks. The Chamber has such good synergy, it probably doesn't want to be sided out.

Also, I'd be interested to see some tips on playing the deck with maybe some sample games Smile
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« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2004, 08:51:45 am »

Quote from: Purple Hat
Flying over togs, dryads, titans, karn, etc. is better then tapping of a bajilion mana once.


I just have to add this...  If you ever win a game with Karn on the table they are complete morons, or you got a lucky 4cc Artfact dude on turn 1, and managed to play every 0cc artifact in your deck.  One of the two.  All they have to do is spend 1 mana and your equipment UNEQUIPS because it's a creature.

FYI for ya...
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« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2004, 09:05:36 am »

Hey Hale, it's Austin, the kid who can't play draw7. We met at Speed's house Friday night.

I noticed that you discarded the idea of splashing black. Now I know this may sound cheesey, but if you splashed black, there is always the option of dropping in disciple of the vault. That appears to have amazing synergy with the genesis chamber and clamp combo, as well as any artifacts that just get hosed in the process of games. Also, you can clamp it and or make it a chump blocker. It's a minor detail, but it's something to toy with, but I'm sure you already have.

I like the deck, I watched it being played some in Pittsfield when I wasn't coming in ninth place with a 76 percent win percentage. Lol, good luck and I'll keep an eye on the forum and offer some input.
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« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2004, 09:53:16 am »

It seems to me like Disciple of the Vault would be a rather bad addition to this deck if we were running the black splash.  Disciple is generally at his best when in combination with Arcbound Ravager, which we don't run any more.  I mean, yeah, it might be good with Chamber/Clamp, but that seems way too situational to warrant an inclusion.  This deck wants to beatdown, fast.  Disciple wouldn't help in that respect, so it wouldn't make the cut in a black-splashed build of the deck.

@Rozetta: No, activating Mishra's Factories doesn't trigger Crusher or Chamber as it is already in play when you activate it.  Our general sideboarding plan against FCG is bring in the Chalices and some number of Triskelions, but it seems like Silent Arbiter could be a total house against them.  We'll see if it turns out to be good enough to warrrant some space in the board.  Thanks for the idea.
Hale and I think the only real way to see how the deck plays is to put it together and test it.  It's very unorthodox as far as Workshop decks go, so you really just need to play it a lot to see how it goes.
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« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2004, 04:10:59 am »

Why not play Engergy Chamber instead of Genesis Chamber?

You get aproximately the same amount of beatage (with your Modular dudes) and your opponent doesn't ever benefit from it?

Just curious.

(EDIT: Just re-read original post, and I think the SkullClamp thing answers my question. However, the question sill remains...)
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« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2004, 04:23:46 am »

Quote
Why not play Engergy Chamber instead of Genesis Chamber?


Skullclamp becomes far worse.  
You only get 1 +1/+1 per turn instead of a lot.
Genesis Chamber triggers the Crusher to get larger.
Helps affinity.
Makes you less vulnerable to artifact destruction.
Harder to chump block.
Less artifacts for Cranial Plating.
You will be playing more creatures than your opponent.

I might have forgotten a few other things, but that is all I can get for now.  Seriously, did you even look at the other cards in this deck before you made that suggestion?  Genesis Chamber has synergy with almost every one, while Energy Chamber is just a horrible card.
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« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2004, 10:43:55 am »

To Goober- My question got a good response from you-aka why Genesis Chamber is better in this build. A nice, easy to read list of reasons. So my question, however stupid, was justified.

All the artifacts in this deck are suceptible to artifact hate, and under Null Rod, Skullclamp will not always be useful.

Energy Chamber could be some sideboard tech against Chalice for whatever. Very Happy and does make your critters grow if nothing else, while working under Null Rod/Damping Matrix.
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« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2004, 11:44:45 am »

Quote from: LotusHead
All the artifacts in this deck are suceptible to artifact hate, and under Null Rod, Skullclamp will not always be useful.


Under Null Rod, we still have the ability to play our affinity men or grow a Crusher by playing free artifacts, either of which will apply serious pressure on the Fish player (the only other deck that I know of that runs Rod is U/G Madness, and not many people play that around here).  Not to mention that Genesis Chamber still works under Null Rod.

Quote from: LotusHead
Energy Chamber could be some sideboard tech against Chalice for whatever. Very Happy and does make your critters grow if nothing else, while working under Null Rod/Damping Matrix.


I'm not sure what kind of deck would board in Chalice against us, as we aren't 100% reliant on our moxen, and all of our threats cost 4 or more.  Yes, Energy Chamber grows our men, but VERY slowly.  I just don't see it being all that useful.
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« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2004, 04:34:02 pm »

I'm not sure how well Ironworks would work in a colorless Affinity deck, lacking Yawg Will and Timetwister, but you might want to try slipping one in for testing purposes.  It fuels Skullclamp quite well (works great with Genesis Chamber, too), giving you the ability to totally combo out and zip through your entire deck.
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« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2004, 09:25:25 am »

about Karn: yeah, true, true.  I haven't won anygames like that, I was just thinking of common T1 creatures that don't fly.

Against other aggro decks like Food Chain this deck preforms quite well generally.  The Food Chain player is basically REQUIRED to combo you out.  While this is certainly possible it does make life interesting for the little red men.  If they can't find a Food Chain you just destroy them.  Your aggro is just faster then theirs.  Also spheres can mess up their game plan while yours remains intact.

Explaining how to play this deck is a little more difficult then it would initially seem.  My first answer is do what the deck wants to do, but that's clearly not good enough.  So here are some hands I goldfished for you.

A point to note is that you generally want to use your first main phase with this deck rather then your second which is fairly counter intuitive for most type one players.

Hand:
Workshop, mox, crusher, frogmite, ornithopter, cranial plating, genesis chamber.
Turn one: Workshop, mox, crusher
Turn two: draw wasteland, play wasteland, Chamber, thopter, froggy, plating, plate the crusher, attack with 15/7 trampling crusher
Turn 3: draw myr enforcer, play myr enforcer, send the team for the win.

Had the Crusher been countered I would have continued on this plan winning on turn 4 rather then turn 3.

sorry, my break is ending, I'll edit more in later.  Embarassed

EDIT: Ok, I'm back

Hand: factory, frogmite, strip, waste, ornithopter, skull clamp, skull clamp.
I probably mulligan this, it's ok, the deck can do better.
Mulligan: Workshop, mana crypt, mana vault, Crusher, Enforcer, ornithopter.
See what I mean?
Turn one: play shop, Crypt, crusher, vault, thopter, enforcer
Turn two: Draw Factory, play it, swing for 8.
Turn 3: Draw skullclamp, Play it, equip crusher, animate factory, swing for 12.

Basically anything with a turn 1 crusher leads to a turn 3 or better gold fish.  Back to work.  I'll put up a turn 2 goldfish on my next break.  It's possible but the hand has to be all kinds of broken.

Definition: all kinds of broken: broken draw, broken mana, broken creatures, broken enablers. All in play at the end of turn one.

EDIT: back again
the Turn two wins all go something like this.  You'll see why they are so rare.
Hand: Crusher, workshop, mana vault, lotus, Jar, crypt, ornithopter

Turn one: workshop, crypt, crusher, vault, lotus, jar, thopter
Turn two: blow Jar, draw some frogmites or thopters, chamber and plating.  Play chamber, free creatures, plating.  equip plating, swing for the win.

You can come pretty close with the right draws off a clamp too, but it's really rare.  This would clearly be the IDEAL hand, but it's more then a little unrealistic.  The mana is obviously doable other ways but it's still virtually impossible to draw the god hand.

Hand: Academy, plating, thopter, thopter, crypt, sphere, factory

Turn one: Academy, thopter, thopter, crypt, plating, equip, sphere
Turn two: Draw waste, play waste, waste something
attack for 5
Turn 3: Draw sphere, play sphere, activate factory, attack for 7
Turn 4: Draw Chamber. Play chamber, animate factory, attack for 10

Hand: Plating, clamp, clamp, crypt, waste, crucible, crusher

Turn one: crypt, waste, crucible
Turn two: Draw Factory, waste something, play plating and clamp
Turn three: Draw mox, play mox, recur waste, animate factory, equp plating and clamp, attack for 9
Turn 4: Draw Jar, recur waste, activate factory, equip, swing for 9
Turn 5: Draw Waste, recur waste, animate, equip, attack

I think these goldfishes give a decent picture of how the deck wants to run with various hands.  You play your creatures/threats while at the same time attacking their mana base.  While the quickest wins clearly come from a resolved crusher early this deck is very capable of buying itself time.  It is important not to see the crusher in hand and decide to go for the crusher at all costs.  If your hand wants to play the mana denial game rather then the balls to the wall aggro game sometimes that's ok.  If you can establish some kind of lock as in the last example you are frequently able to sit back and slow play for the win.  Crucible really enables this strategy.  I am definately considering adding a third either main or in the board, I haven't decided yet.  They are just plain awesome, I wouldn't play workshop without them.
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« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2004, 02:53:57 am »

@Purple Hat: Thanks for the tips on playing this deck. I'm currently in the process of getting the cards to build this deck, since it looks very solid and if it made 12th place at SCG, that shows promise. Out of interest, do you remember what your matchups were and how they went?

I saw a card yesterday that caught my eye and was wondering, purely hypothetically, if you guys had given it any consideration:

Myr Servitor 1
Artifact Creature -- Myr
At the beginning of your upkeep, if Myr Servitor is in play, each player returns all cards named Myr Servitor from his or her graveyard to play.
1/1

I know this is mildly janky, but I can see some quite interesting synergies between Arcbound Crusher, Genesis Chamber, Skullclamp and this guy. Obviously it's main value would be as a draw engine with skullclamp, since if you have a situation where there are multiple available, you can stack the upkeep effects to draw a lot of cards with SkullClamp (and create an arbitrarily large Crusher or number of tokens). At the very least, it's a 1 drop and decent chump blocker. Dunno, just a thought.
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« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2004, 06:19:24 am »

I'm fairly confident that you can't stack the servitors in any way that would allow you to draw extra cards.  Equip happens at sorcery speed so you can't use it durring your upkeep with servitors on the stack the way you can use the servitor to give a ravager +12/+12.  I like the idea of using servitors but I just don't know what I'd cut at this point.

SCG matchups were:
Goblin Sligh, with maindeck bloodmoon (W, 2-1)
Dragon (W, 2-1)
Artifact Aggro-prison (W, 2-1)
Draw7 (L, 0-2)
BSR (W, 2-1)
FCG (L, 1-2)
Dragon (W, 2-0)
Salvagers.dec (W, 2-0)

Side event:
Turboland (W, 2-1)
Draw7 (W, 2-1)
Split finals
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