[deck] Crushing Chamber-Mono Brown aggro

[Purple Hat]

wow, that's almost exactly the opposite of what I've found.  I've found that a resolved Crusher on turn 1 or 2 almost always leads directly to a game win either the next turn or the turn after that.

Hale

[Vegeta2711]

Only against non workshop aggro has playing Crusher consistently won me games straight up. I do say vs. Fish, Crusher is superior threat, since it's not affected by Null Rod and grows rather quickly.

Against combo it wouldn't matter unless I resolved a sphere ASAP, in which case any sort of real threat would win me the game.

Against control, Plating always proved the best threat on the whole, turning any creature into a legit threat. Ravager was more effective, simply because it could move counters in response to a plow.

Finally vs. Workshop aggro, Duplicant made me curse the existance of Crusher. Though Welder's effectively netrualized all my threats equally, I do like that sometimes it was possible to move counters around with the Arcbounds. Actually this match is why I put this deck on the backburner. It flat out loses a good many of Workshop mirrors vs. a variety of variants.

[Purple Hat]

Duplicant dies if it targets the Crusher, and Welders are shut off post board.  I've found this deck to be very good in the workshop aggro quasi-mirror.  I generally beat 7/10 and it's kin by being careful about my graveyard.  Crusher is huge in this matchup because if you get it early all their mana and most of their spells gro him.  I just haven't had troubble with this match with the exception of the one match where I ran into maindeck Artifact Mutation in game one and Crucible lock in game 3.  With the Totems in the side Welders become a non issue post board and not using Ravager means they have to kill one of our threats in a way that doesn't RFG it in order to fuck with us with Welders.  That means a Welder deck with maindeck artifact kill.  those exist, sure, but they aren't particularly common yet.

[Methuselahn]

Against control, Plating always proved the best threat on the whole, turning any creature into a legit threat. Ravager was more effective, simply because it could move counters in response to a plow.

Finally vs. Workshop aggro, Duplicant made me curse the existance of Crusher. Though Welder's effectively netrualized all my threats equally, I do like that sometimes it was possible to move counters around with the Arcbounds. Actually this match is why I put this deck on the backburner. It flat out loses a good many of Workshop mirrors vs. a variety of variants.

I'll add something to this.  I think the crusher deck does well vs control anyway, because it has so many threats and is packed with acceleration.  I think Vegeta would agree here from the testing we've done.

The real issue is vs the Workshop mirror.  Shop decks with splashed colors such as TheManShow and U/R Titan decks just out perform, both in controlling other decks, avoiding Crusher's disruption, and standing toe to toe against Crusher decks.  Decks that utilize Titan, Platinum, Dupe, Trike, and Pentavus are able to utilize their creatures' impact, rather than just having a large ass beater.  Life total only really matters when it is less than one.  Also, relying on the match up success post-board is a losing strategy.

[Purple Hat]

Also, relying on the match up success post-board is a losing strategy.

Yeah, but when your only problem with the matchup is when they board in lots of artifact kill stating that post board you can turn off their most potent threat against you suggests that you should win the matchup alot more then you lose it.  I don't rely on my post board numbers to beat other Workshop aggro.  I rely on my large set of chump blockers (chamber tokens), the fact that I have flyers and they generally don't, the fact that I'm faster then they are and the fact that all their threats make my threats better.  Those are the things I rely on in the workshop aggro mirror.  The fact that they lose their welders post board is just bonus.

[virtual]

From my testing, and the tournament that I took this to yesterday, crushers can just win games that juggernaut can't.  It usually starts out as a least a 3/3, but it can be held back for defense if necessary (which is huge sometimes, juggies just run blindly into bad blockers sometimes), and other shop decks (who don't find their duplicant) can make it a beating.   I started testing the deck with 3 crushers, but testing against 4cc, upping it to 4 for another threat was what I decided upon.  I'll be posting a tournament report with my list soon.

Crusher also has great synergy with Genesis chamber.  Furthermore, it can usually get big enough that chumping with a lavamancer/shooting it won't take it out, where a juggernaut could be susceptible to that.  Also, a good amount of the time, if crusher dies, then he just makes another creature, or your nexus gigantic, in order to give the deck some staying power.   Given that Every non-land spell in your deck will pump the crusher's power, and probably 5 spells at least from your opponent will pump it, and that he is modular, I think that he's a far superior choice to Juggernaut.  Against control his is amazing.  I only played against stax as the workshop decks I faced.  In that matchup, welders are your real problem, so if you can deal with them, you win.  I think crushers stay.  You probably don't have a Horrible match-up vs 7/10 etc game 1, and if you need to bring in something else for game 2/3 (tbd), that can be done.

[TrixR4Kidz]

What did you do to stop scooping to Angel? Sphere makes it harder for them to get the Angel into play. That comment seems quite random. Every eck scoops to certain situations

Not really, not every deck just instantly scoops to things like that, platinum angel is not THAT rare in the metagame, and it's not even a situation it's a single card, not every deck scoops to a single card... infact hardly any deck scoops to a single card, thats why there are tier 1 decks, cuz they can actually do things. Sphere of resistance slows angel down if someone wants to hardcast yes, but A. Sphere isn't that affective against workshop decks, B. Tinker is still an option, paying 4 mana to win the game is pretty good. C. Sphere doesn't stop goblin welder, to just weld in an angel, so how is my comment "random" when it makes perfect sense....

[Vegeta2711]

Firstly for methu.

I'll add something to this. I think the crusher deck does well vs control anyway, because it has so many threats and is packed with acceleration. I think Vegeta would agree here from the testing we've done.

Pretty much, this deck does do a good job of providing a huge number of threats vs. opposing control decks.

Duplicant dies if it targets the Crusher

Dur dur.   This usually ends up being a -good- thing anyways, one of my fav. things is welding the Dupe over and over. Plating and Ravager can both be useful to other creatures though, in face of Duplicant. It also leaves them with a rather small Dupe.

and Welders are shut off post board

Relying on the Workshop player to have no ways to netrualize Cursed Totem seems like a risky strategy in of itself.

Here's the main issue I've had with the Workshop mirrors. Almost everyone simply has a better engine in the match-up. TnT can fetch Welders, artifact kill and Dupe/Platinum Angel all off SOTF. All they really have to do is stall for a little while and even a few critters or resolved Welder can do this nicely.

TMS and 7/10 can rely on their own Cruicble/LD strat with Welders, Dupe and PA. Against these decks your recommended strategy is more viable, but it's still risky.

Against Affinity... well affinity just flat out is faster and can abuse Skullclamp better. Plus it has Disciple, which is basically GG in the mirror.

[Purple Hat]

How is affinity flat out faster than Crusher?  A turn one Crusher wins this matchup every time.  They might be half a turn faster, but not more, and then theres the whole Null Rod issue.  Crusher is MUCH better vs Null Rod than Ravager Affinity because Null Rod doesn't turn off our whole mana base and our modular guy.

Claiming that Totem can shut down Welders is no more ridiculous then claiming that Duplicant+Welder is a problem specific to this deck or that Welder will always be able to mess us up when we frequently don't have anything in our graveyard.  Playing against Welder decks requires careful play but it really isn't that much of a problem.  Multiple Welders +Duplicant in the yard is a problem for any deck running creatures.  You have to kill them before it gets out of control.  Something this deck is entirely capable of.

@TrixR4Kidz: Read the thread.  We already discussed the addition of duplicant to the main deck to kill angels.  Infact I'm fairly sure we discussed this prior to your posting this stuff originally so I'm not sure why you're continuing on this line.

Hale[/i]

[policehq]

In testing I've found that the deck has a lot of problems against 4cc, Stax, and TnT. I made a lot of very serious changes to the deck and came up with this, which has been much more successful in those match-ups:

Mana Sources (25)
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Black Lotus
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland

Creatures (17)
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Ornithopter
1 Duplicant

Pump (4)
4 Cranial Plating

Card Advantage/Disruption (14)
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Genesis Chamber
1 Memory Jar
4 Skullclamp
4 Tangle Wire

Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Cursed Totem
2 Duplicant
4 Tormod's Crypt

I'm not completely set on Arcbound Ravagers yet, because I want to stand some chance against Null Rod, but currently they are in there because it is easier to get them out with Tangle Wire than it is an Arcbound Crusher. I'm still testing, as I'm sure everyone else is, different possibilities. Tangle Wire currently, though, seems like the best solution against a lot of problem decks. It is the absolute perfect answer to Trinisphere.

Barry

[Purple Hat]

Barry,
I don't see any major changes there.  I mean you've replaced Crushers with Ravagers and Spheres with Wires.  Other than that isn't it basically exactly the same?

I can see how Ravager could be better Vs. 4cc because of Swords, but I don't see how they don't hurt you vs Stax and TnT by giving them lots of targets for the Welders.


Hale

[policehq]

Well, it was a drastic change from the previous build I listed, anyway...

Stax and TnT are just problem decks. That's something that anyone wanting to play this deck (or any variant) has to accept. Stax will get plenty of Goblin Welder-targets into your graveyard simply by playing its game, and TnT has looping Duplicants and/or Triskelions that will keep either Arcbound Ravager OR Arcbound Crusher at 1/1. Because of this problem, I really want to replace 1 sideboard Duplicant with a fourth Genesis Chamber. That way I can hope to have more permanents versus Stax and ping away at the life of TnT (or at least chump block Juggernauts).

The benefit of Tangle Wires over Sphere of Resistance, though, is that TnT tends to have a low-permanent count on the board. Tangle Wires also turn bad hands into a lock on both players for a couple of turns to get you to draw into the cards that you need. Once you have a Cranial Plating and a good attacker, you can play Tangle Wire to make the opponent's loss inevitable. Tangle Wire helps prevent Cunning Wish -> Rack and Ruin just as well as Sphere of Resistance as well, AND your TPS opponents can't play a Rebuild or Hurkyll's Recall when their lands are tapped.

Barry

EDIT: And Hale, aren't you running an IntuiStax deck? Could I test this build against it sometime?

[MisterShark]

Stax and TnT are just problem decks.

We can add any deck siding in Energy Flux (Fish) to this list of problem decks.  
My Fish opponent was reliably able to hold off anything potentially threatening that I played for the first few turns and then plopped an Energy Flux down before I could afford a 6cc CotV.
 
With a Workshop in play that I couldn't use mana from to pay Flux's new upkeep costs with, a Mox that 'turned into' a 'upkeep-only Lotus Petal', and an Ancient Tomb that was murdering me to try and keep anything on the board, I was getting housed.

I realize that 2 consecutive Workshop drops and a CotV in hand would have prevented this tradgedy, but his Flux drop was much more dependable and inevitable since his FoWs kept me at bay easily.

It sucked to have this happen in duels 2 & 3 against my Fish opponent, for 2 consecutive matches.

Anyone have any suggestions or is this just the way the cookie crumbles?

[Purple Hat]

Ok, Here's the list I used at gencon.  I played badly so I wouldn't blame the deck for my bad record.  (4-4)  No seriously.  It was totally my fault I did things like animate a nexus when I knew my opponent had fire ice in his hand.

Mana
4 Workshop
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Wasteland
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Strip Mine
1 Academy
7 Solomoxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault

Creatures
4 Crusher
4 Froggy
3 Enforcer
3 Thopter
2 Ravager
1 Triskelion

Other
4 Skullclamp
4 Crainial Plating
3 Sphere of Resistence
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Memory Jar
3 Genesis Chamber

Side board
4 Tangle Wire
4 Cursed Totem
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Triskelion
1 Duplicant
1 Sphere of Resistence

I lost to TPS, 4cc twice, once when I played like a tool and once when I kept bad hands, and red burn when he was holding 10 or 15 points of burn and untapped and killed me when he was at 1 life.

Energy flux has never been a problem for me unless they have two.  I can generally keep enough threats on the table vs fish that I don't really mind loosing two or three moxen.  The game usually ends the turn after energy flux hits anyway in my experience.

Hale

EDIT: Right, sorry, I just woke up before I typed that list up.  Sleeping 22 of 24 hours will make your head wierd.  Fixed the 57 card deck list by adding the 3 Genesis Chambers which were missing somehow.  :lol:

[policehq]

Here's my latest build of the deck, after testing:

// Lands
    3  Ancient Tomb
    4  Blinkmoth Nexus
    4  Mishra's Workshop
    1  Strip Mine
    1  Tolarian Academy
    4  Wasteland

// Creatures
    4  Arcbound Crusher
    1  Duplicant
    4  Frogmite
    4  Myr Enforcer
    4  Ornithopter

// Spells
    1  Black Lotus
    4  Cranial Plating
    3  Genesis Chamber
    1  Lion's Eye Diamond
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Mana Vault
    1  Memory Jar
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    4  Skullclamp
    1  Sol Ring
    4  Tangle Wire

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Duplicant
SB: 2  Crucible of Worlds
SB: 4  Chalice of the Void
SB: 4  Damping Matrix
SB: 4  Tormod's Crypt

[I don't feel like cleaning up the Magic Workstation notification of the cards' sets.]

I choose to use Damping Matrix over Cursed Totem because of Zuran Orb, Mindslaver, and Goblin Charbelcher. These things could create auto-wins when they are cast that I did not want to deal with.

Crucible of Worlds was dropped to the sideboard against Stax decks because often you'd be playing other threats instead of having the mana to cast it and sacrifice tempo (your land drop) to take out one of their lands. Finally, Tangle Wire often ended up being Time Walk x2 in most games, so I think it is disruption enough, coupled with the Wastelands and Strip Mine. The Blinkmoth Nexus 'engine' is cute, but often times the two cards you net from the first sacrifice are enough to get going, without needing to recur it the next turn.

Lion's Eye Diamond is important for instantly equipping Cranial Plating, drawing six cards of Skullclamp (with Blinkmoth Nexus and/or Genesis Chamber), or announcing a spell and then casting it with the mana used from Lion's Eye Diamond (most people on Magic Workstation won't let you do that though because they are [misinformed]).

*Ravager was dropped from policehq's Trash Compactor list, and there was much rejoicing.*

Barry

[Jacob Orlove]

I choose to use Damping Matrix over Cursed Totem because of Zuran Orb, Mindslaver, and Goblin Charbelcher. These things could create auto-wins when they are cast that I did not want to deal with.

It also shuts down your own clamps and platings. That seems bad.

Lion's Eye Diamond is important for ... announcing a spell and then casting it with the mana used from Lion's Eye Diamond (most people on Magic Workstation won't let you do that though because they are [misinformed]).

LED has errata--it can only be played at instant speed. The one who is misinformed here is you.

Lion's Eye Diamond
0
Artifact
Sacrifice Lion's Eye Diamond, Discard your hand: Add three mana of any one color to your mana pool. Play this ability only any time you could play an instant.

[MisterShark]

I can't believe that you dropped the 3 Genesis Chamber, not to mention 1 MD Sphere.  On top of that, you added 2 of the creature that you had explained your dislike and dissapproval for multiple time: Ravager.

When playing the deck, it seemed to me that the Chambers really are necessary to grow your Crushers quickly and provide the Clamp fodder that is so vital to the deck's modest draw engine.  
How did things play out tempo/draw- wise without the Chambers?

Your inclusion of Ravagers really suprises me also.  You had been vehemently and adamently against the addition of Ravagers, citing dis-synergy with Cranial Plating, risking your board permanents, etc
What made you change your mind, and how did this work out for you?

[TrixR4Kidz]

Just out of curiosity, how many crushing chamber/variants were there?

Does anybody know the answer to that? if so what was the best record for one?

4-4 makes baby jesus cry

[policehq]

I choose to use Damping Matrix over Cursed Totem because of Zuran Orb, Mindslaver, and Goblin Charbelcher. These things could create auto-wins when they are cast that I did not want to deal with.

It also shuts down your own clamps and platings. That seems bad.

Lion's Eye Diamond is important for ... announcing a spell and then casting it with the mana used from Lion's Eye Diamond (most people on Magic Workstation won't let you do that though because they are [misinformed]).

LED has errata--it can only be played at instant speed. The one who is misinformed here is you.

Lion's Eye Diamond
0
Artifact
Sacrifice Lion's Eye Diamond, Discard your hand: Add three mana of any one color to your mana pool. Play this ability only any time you could play an instant.

Thank you for the correction of the errata, but the card's inclusion is still important for its synnergy with Skullclamp and Cranial Plating.

As far as Damping Matrix shutting down Skullclamp and Cranial Plating goes, I'd rather face a long game where I don't lose on turn one-three against a Goblin Charbelcher and win with Frogmites and Myr Enforcers than a quick win with a bunch of cards and a high-powered Ornithopter. Mindslaver and Zuran Orb are also very problematic. Sometimes, though rare, Animal Farm-style decks randomly open up with Crucible/Fastbond/Zuran Orb. If they get that game one, I really have to work to win games two and three.

I think it's obvious that Arcbound Ravager was included in the deck for anti-StoP, power-ups from opponent's removal, synnergy with Skullclamps, redundancy with Cranial Plating, and to power-up a Triskelion.

Barry

EDIT: And Hale's most recent decklist only has 57 cards. My guess is that the remaining 3 are Genesis Chambers.

[Purple Hat]

I'm pretty sure I was the only one at worlds but that record should have been much better.  I played badly.  The deck gave me the stuff to win, I just didn't use it right.  I know at least one person who over slept was planning on playing it and Top eighted the 250 tournament the night before the main event.

I didn't drop the chambers, I just missed them on the list, I'm gonna edit and fix it.

I added the Ravagers about a week ago, when I was convinced of the weakness of Enforcers and Ornithopters in certain situations.  I decided to play only two though because I still feel that it is weaker then either of those two cards.

Jacob hit the LED thing, but the saccing it to discard your hand and draw 6 is interesting.  I looked at that a while ago.  The addition of the nexus makes that a better play.


Hale

[Cavius The Great]

Purple Hat: Have you thought of running Darksteel Citadel? It not only ups the artifact count for your Crushers and Cranial Plating but it could also be the land to use when activating Mishra's Factories. Activating a Factory with an Ancient Tomb is not good. Other than Wasteland and Moxen your deck has no other way of activating a Factory. Maybe Darksteel Citadel can be beneficial in that sense. Plus it's indestructible.  

[Purple Hat]

One of the main considerations when designing this deck was to be highly resistant to Null Rod.  For that reason artfact lands have never made the cut.  I don't play factories any more.  It was pointed out that Nexus is better almost all the time in this deck.  I almost always have enough mana available to me to animate them though because I can use moxen or the Academy or themselves if I'm not planning on attacking or tombs if I don't care about the damage, which I frequently don't.

Hale

[negator0808]

When the original deck was built, it used the non flying Factories as manlands and needed Thopters for cheap flyers. Now that it uses Nexus, cant we rely on them for flying beats and cut the Thopters for something, well, better?

I really think Ravager deserves 2-4 slots because it solves a lot of problems... he lets you dump modular counters in response to a STP on your Crusher, lets you draw cards off clamped Frogs and Myrs, and stops Artifact Mutation from pwning you. He is also, you know, the Ravenger, making you less reliant on Plating for the win.

I've also noticed a dissynergy between Frog/Enforcer and Genesis Chamber. Every creature your opponent plays gives them a chumper for your non trampling Enforcers.

[MisterShark]

Every creature your opponent plays gives them a chumper for your non trampling Enforcers.

That's why it's essential that you always have enough creatures with some sort or evasion like trampling Crushers and flying Ornithopters.

Ravagers can help to throw the counters up to the flying Ornithopters also, which you really would not want to waste on a Nexus temp.

All this and the fact that you can play the Thopters for free after you've paid for everything you can in a turn, thereby pumping the Crusher as quickly as possible, tells me that these creatures are not to be cut.

[policehq]

A lot of times (too many to count), my deck has found itself without enough colorless mana to produce a large Blinkmoth every turn (one to activate the land and one to equip, then the land has to attack), so Ornithopters are not to be cut simply because in some instances Blinkmoth Nexus replace them.

Barry

[Purple Hat]

Ravagers can help to throw the counters up to the flying Ornithopters also, which you really would not want to waste on a Nexus temp.

I'm not sure what this means.  I think you're implying that the Nexus Loses counters when it becomes a land again.  This is not true.  The Nexus keeps the counters they just don't do anything when it's not a creature.

I wouldn't cut Ornithopters.  Having that free creature is just too important.  3 is probably as low as I'd go with them.  I think my creature mix for gencon was about right.  Like I said though, I played badly.  I need to win some power and redeem myself.  On the plus side the 4cc matchup went better then I anticipated with the current configuration.  I was really happy about that.

Hale

[virtual]

I think that any less than 4 ravagers is a bad idea.  

Ravager allows for some amazing plays:  he gives card drawing tricks, helps protect you from some of the damage that rack & ruin does, and gives you an out for STP.  I played 2 ornithopters in my lotus-winning build, and I found myself siding them out much more often than others.  Ornithopters can be fantastic with a chamber, or plating, but they are useless on their own.

   Ravager on the other hand is fantastic on his own.  Furthermore, ravager is almost like evasion because usually the opponent won't have enough blockers for everything;  If you're careful you can nuke them after blockers are declared.  It can also allow you to prevent that angel from gaining them 4 extra life.  Control sees a ravager come down and they will counter it;  control sees an ornithopter come down, and they wait to counter the cranial plate that it needs to be useful/good.  

Ornithopters or crucibles are definately the weakest portions of the deck.  Crucibles can be fantastic, and they provide another target that control must counter, but usually the wastes you draw is enough tempo to win the game.  

Ornithopters do 3 things:  Bump affinity.  Give an evasive creature for plate, or do tricks w/ crusher or chamber for some general artifact synergy.  Unfortunately, they are useless on their own, and running Ornithopter over ravager is a bad idea.  

A resolved ravager unanswered is game.  A resolved ornithopter doesn't need to be answered, unless you have a plate, in which case usually ravager is Just as good, or better.  

Ornithopters probably shouldn't be cut entirely.  At least not yet.

[negator0808]

Ravagers can help to throw the counters up to the flying Ornithopters also, which you really would not want to waste on a Nexus temp.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this... if you dump counters on a Nexus, the counters remain even when it stops being a creature. Any kind of counter can be put on any kind of permanent as long as conditions for being there are met upon targeting and resolution.

[MisterShark]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this... if you dump counters on a Nexus, the counters remain even when it stops being a creature. Any kind of counter can be put on any kind of permanent as long as conditions for being there are met upon targeting and resolution.

and as noted earlier by Hale:

I'm not sure what this means.  I think you're implying that the Nexus Loses counters when it becomes a land again.  This is not true.  The Nexus keeps the counters they just don't do anything when it's not a creature.
Hale

Umm, thanks again for correcting my mistake.  I stand corrected....twice.

[policehq]

I'm curious to know the responses of sideboarding Damping Matrix. Here are problematic artifacts (as in, game-winning) that it shuts down:
-Zuran Orb
-Illusionary Mask
-Mindslaver
-Goblin Charbelcher
-Opposing Skullclamps
-Opposing Cranial Platings

In addition to cutting off these artifacts, it shuts down Grim Lavamancer, Goblin Welder, Skirk Prospector, Siege-Gang Commander, River Boa, Psychatog, etc. and it is cast perfectly with Mishra's Workshop (no mana burn from Cursed Totem).

When siding in Damping Matrix, I always take out 4 Cranial Plating, 4 Skullclamp, 1 Memory Jar, and 1 Lion's Eye Diamond. This allows room for Chalice of the Void and Crucible of Worlds or Duplicant (if needed). Genesis Chamber, Affinity creatures, 12 hate cards, and Arcbound Crusher can still bring death to the opponent, even if it is slower (sometimes, though, it's the same speed).

I am also considering cutting Lion's Eye Diamond for a fourth Ancient Tomb if Mono-Blue becomes popular. Games two and three are nightmares against that deck.

Barry