Yet another fish variant. / Is wtf/r really optimal?

[Jacob Orlove]

Animate Dead
1B
Enchantment
When Animate Dead comes into play, if it's in play, it becomes an enchant creature. Put target creature card from a graveyard into play under your control enchanted by Animate Dead. / Enchanted creature gets -1/-0. / When Animate Dead leaves play, destroy enchanted creature. It can't be regenerated.

Willbender can re-target the triggered ability, but Misdirection cannot retarget the enchantment, because the enchantment targets nothing as it is being cast. Sandster is correct.

[Zeylon]

Thx Jacob and Sandster.

I guess my deck won't have quite as good a matchup against dragon anymore.

Btw, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on my most current build Jacob. I managed to squeeze in 3 Moxen while keeping the mana count at 24.

Do you think Black Lotus deserves a slot as well, or do you believe it to be suboptimal for fish?

Do you think it was a poor idea to cut the Library of Alexandria. I reasoned that the deck really doesn't like having too many colorless sources. It didn't seem wise to cut a colored mana source to keep a colorless one. Would cutting a wasteland be a better idea? The library is even more unlikely to be used turn two on account of the moxen. So it'll only be useful midgame when you play first. And if by midgame, you drew enough cards to still be able to retain 7 cards, then isn't Library just a win more card anyways?

Edit: I just wanted to point out an error I made. I misspelled my user name when logging in and didnot realize the error I made. As a result of my internet browser having autocomplete, it completed my information and I was left with two usernames both of which are essentially identical but with a slight difference in the spelling. I'm still not sure how exactly this occured or why I didn't notice initially. But I am deleting this (my second) user name and will never post under it again. Sorry for any confusion this created. Thank you.

[Jacob Orlove]

I've been considering cutting LoA myself, to get down to 24 sources. It's good, but only in your opening hand, and even then, not against everything.

I don't think lotus has a place. This deck wants mana every turn, not a lot at once. And we don't have welders, will, or really expensive cards to abuse it with.

[EvilSirMark]

In your lastest build you are still running Standstill in the card drawing section, however in an earlier post you recomended using Brainstorms in place of the standstills if you were going to be using the Quirion Dryads.

Has your testing with Quirion main deck along side standstill proven that it is a better draw spell instead of brainstorm. It seems to me that using standstill as your draw spell in that slot is counter-intuitive to the Quirion dryad route to victory which is load up on as many spells as you can to make it large and in charge. Have you found this to be a problem?

Another question I wanted to pose: Has anyone considered adding a main deck copy of Crucible of Worlds? This card seems so very powerful to me that it might actually be worth adding a main deck copy? I've been playing around with a copy in my deck and I kinda like it. I have another in the sideboard because recurring the strip effects is some fun Anyone else have any thoughts about this?

[Tharkis]

I've been trying to squeze main deck cruicible (1 of) in my URg fish for a while, and where i'm currently putting it is in place of the 3rd main deck null rod.  I'm testing this based on the fact that i'm running 3 moxen now and sometimes, particularly with all the fish running around right now, i dont want to see a nulrod first game when i really could use the cruicible before sideboard. Now this may end up being a mistake, but so far it hasnt bit me in the ass.  and i can always side in the 2 null rods now in the board if i really need them game 2.  I do however think that it's a bit of a metagame decision, but sometimes having CoW just wins outright when in a not-so-favorable position.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

In a mana base with 3 moxen running the cruicble is more realistic, but in an 1-mox build it could end up being to slow.  3cc is alot for fish, but a resolved crucible can often mean winning the game.

[Zelyon]

In your lastest build you are still running Standstill in the card drawing section, however in an earlier post you recomended using Brainstorms in place of the standstills if you were going to be using the Quirion Dryads.

Very good question EvilSirMark. No I actually haven't ever used Brainstorm with Quirion Dryad. I've never throughly tested Brainstorm in Fish to be honest. I never liked the idea but I simply don't have enough experience with it to be able to make the judgment. What I can say with confidence is that Dryad and Standstill are not unsynergic though they might seem so at first glance. As I mentioned, this deck plays 29 spells that are neither green nor colorless. With the only exceptions being 4 Spiketail Hatchling and 1 Time Walk (which doesn't count since it gives you an extra turn anyways), every single one of these cards can be cast third turn along with Standstill. The probability is very very low that you if you cast the dryad second turn (or first turn with a mox) that you will not be able to cast another nongreen noncolorless spell prior to casting the standstill on the third turn. In fact, the odds are very much in your favor that you will be able to cast two spells after casting the dryad but prior to casting standstill.

This is type one. In type 1 where fast aggro isn't that common (yet), a 3/3 (and oftentimes a 4/4) dryad under a standstill is almost never a bad position to be in. Their life total will start disappearing rapidly and they will be forced to break standstill asap. And this is how fish wins, by forcing them to break a standstill and giving you the advantage. What this also means is that the turn after dropping the standstill, you will draw atleast 4 more cards (if they break the standstill immediately) and thus will likely draw two more cheap spells that will pump the dryad some more.

It's pretty easy to see how quickly Dryad can grow as a result of standstill and how effective a threat it is when used along side it. In fact, a turn one moxed out dryad followed by a daze or FoW their turn or something and a turn two cloud of faries (and possibly something else like a lavamancer or curiosity), standstill (thus giving you a 4/4 or 5/5 dryad along with three extra cards turn two) is about as broken a play as I've ever seen. And it's quite feasible, or atleast something along those lines.

As for the 1 copy of Crucible of Worlds, I really would like to squeeze it in. The current build uses 3 moxen so it's quite castable. I simply can't find the room however. I will try cutting a Null Rod for it as you suggested but I am VERY skeptical that this is a good idea.

As for the River Boa vs Quirion Dryad debate, it's entirely a matter of personal preference. This build of this deck can support Dryad far better than any other variant of Fish I have ever seen. That's because this build plays 29 nongreen, noncolorless spells (essentially half the deck). In addition, every one of these threats is synegetic with dryad. Lavamancer is a very easy to cast one drop and is great against aggro by itself thus giving the aggro player yet another creature they have to remove asap. Cloud of Faries is free allowing you to play many spells each turn. Spiketail Hatchling is disruption and thus can protect the dryad. The remainder of the cards are either very cheap draw spells (getting you more cards that help you pump the dryad), or disruption (help you protect the dryad till it's out of burn range). The dryad is an absolutely perfect fit. And considering that this is easily one of the most broken draw engines in type 1 (5 Ancestral Recall and 4 Curiosity), the deck abuses dryad as much as some of the old gro variants! But unlike the old gro decks, this deck does fine even if it fails to protect the dryad. What I do need to finetune however is the sideboard. Against Artifact decks, I find myself bringing in too many green cards that aren't synegetic with the dryad when the Dryad is absolutely critical to the deck to be able to soon grow large enough to take on Su-Chis and Juggernauts etc. I will need to find a way to replace the oxidizes and naturalizes with Rack and Ruins and Artifact Mutations without leaving this deck more vulnerable to artifact aggro's mana denial post sideboard.

[EvilSirMark]

I like the explaination you posed for the standstill, I can see how it might work that way. I hadn't considered a turn one dryad, I'm still stuck in the UR fish mentality where we cast the Lavamancer's first

My take on the crucible however is a little different. I LOVE my null rods. If I wasn't affraid of bending my perfect condition versions I would sleep with them under my pillow. Since this is the case I have never considered taking them out, even when testing your version with the 2 extra moxen. The card I took out to test with crucible in it's place was time walk. My reasoning being, time walk gives you an extra turn, while recurring waste/strip effects has a very similar effect on the game.

However I do have a couple problems with this, I was hoping I might get some discussion on from you on the boards here. The first is replacing a 2cc spell with a 3cc spell. The moxen I do believe will help some in this department, and the crucible is really meant to be played later in the game, not really in the first 2 turns or so. My second apprehension and the greater of the two that I'm concerned about is lowering the blue spell count. Time walk is one of the weaker cards in the deck in my opinion, unlike other decks like 4cc or Hulk fish doesn't really have a whole lot of back breaking plays it can setup to be executed during the time walk turn. Timewalk however does give you an extra spell to pitch to force of will, by lowering the count to 20 blue spells will there still be sufficient resources to cast FoW for free without problems? Will removing ONE blue spell make that much of a difference?

Personally I'm testing the crucible in the Time Walk slot, but is this a mistake?

Edit:

I'm not sure if this helps much but I use this sideboard and have been fairly happy with it so far.

Sideboard  
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Rack and Ruin
2 Artifact Mutation
2 Maze of Ith
2 Gorilla Shaman
1 Stifle

[Zelyon]

I've always been of the opinion that Time Walk is a card that MUST be played in any blue based deck, no questions asked.

That's because an extra turn is ALWAYs a good thing. Even if used as a cantrip, Time Walk makes it so that you are effectively playing 59 cards instead of 60. But just about every single time, Time Walk is a lot more than a cantrip. It gives you an extra land drop and an extra attack and if you have a dryad, a +1/+1 or if you have a curiosity yet another card! Just the land drop alone (thus allowing you to either waste a land, recover from using a daze, dropping or activating a lavamancer in addition to whatever else you would have done had you not cast Time Walk) makes it a lot more worthwhile than any cantrip, the other stuff is just gravy. This is a HUGE tempo boost in a deck that wins based on Tempo. Thus if it truly is impossible to find something to cut, I would rather play 61 cards in Fish rather than cut Time Walk. And I see no reason why anyone else shouldn't do the same.

In short, if you have to add crucible, there has to be something else to cut than one of the most broken cards ever printed. Perhaps a Cloud of Fairies or a Daze or possibly even a Null Rod. If not, just play 61 cards. You're still better off than cutting Time Walk.

I do like the sideboard.  Mine has a few differences though.

This is my sideboard (I modified it to not hurt the use of dryad much)...

1 Null Rod
2 Stifle (great against both control and combo and workshop's wastelands)
2 Fire/Ice (more versatile than Maze of Ith since they can take out Welders and also pump up dryad)
2 Artifact Mutation
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Gorilla Shaman (Was Crucible of Worlds for a while but I realized that Crucible of Worlds is good against too many decks to be played in the sideboard. It should be maindecked if at all possible.)
2 Rack and Ruin

I have a question to other fish players that frequently face Workshop decks. Is the additional 2 Rack and Ruin (bringing the artifact destruction count up to 4) absolutely essential to have a favorable match up against various Workshop variants if you are already running so much other artifact hate (Null Rod, Shaman) and welder hate (BeB, F/I) along with a lot of counter magic?

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I have a question to other fish players that frequently face Workshop decks. Is the additional 2 Rack and Ruin (bringing the artifact destruction count up to 4) absolutely essential to have a favorable match up against various Workshop variants if you are already running so much other artifact hate (Null Rod, Shaman) and welder hate (BeB, F/I) along with a lot of counter magic?

It should be meta dependant based on how many workshop decks you face.  I think that although artifact mutation is amaxing chalice for 2 is your worst enemy, which is where oxidise and R&R come in.  Mutation is also harder to cast because it requires you to have acess to both splash colours.  R&R is certainly stronger than oxidise under trini, also.  I think having both is nice.

[Fatty_Arbuckle]

I like oxidize better than r and r in this deck. 3cc can be hard to reach when facing a prison deck.

[wuaffiliate]

Who was it on here that initially suggesting using dryad in fish?

In this thread, about ten posts in, Jacob says "Edit: this was my response to a PM suggestion of Dryad, but it should go in the thread too:". That PM was from me, though his response seems to indicate that he'd heard it from someone before. Barring that, I guess you can give me credit if you want, but it's not important - Type One people care wayy too much about that sort of thing.

i also suggested it, i believe it was on the first page of his original thread.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I like oxidize better than r and r in this deck. 3cc can be hard to reach when facing a prison deck.

3cc is what oxidise costs under trini, so if it resolves you may as well play R&R.  My point was that all of the artifact destruction spells have their advantages and disadvantages, and thus a combination of all 3 would be the most effective.

[Zelyon]

I am not sure that artifact hate really does warrant so many sideboard slots especially considering that the blue elemental blasts, fire/ice, and even lavamancers all hate out welders.

So would three slots, one of each, suffice?

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

That would be a good solution, although the oxidise sb slot could be another R&R/mutation if the build mds the oxidise.

[wuaffiliate]

Oxidize should be maindeck, its great disruption and removal. Mutation is the best removal for artifact the deck has, i run 3 SB because they are so damn good.

For the record this is my current SB:

SB: 3 Artifact Mutation
SB: 1 Naturalize
SB: 1 Rack and Ruin
SB: 2 Stifle
SB: 2 Fire/Ice
SB: 2 Sigil of Sleep
SB: 1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Crucible of Worlds

[EvilSirMark]

I believe the reason the Oxidize are not currently main deck are because it increases the green spell count, lowering the number of spells that pump the dryads

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Upping the green count by 1-2 spells doesn't hurt the dryads that much, and is a poor excuse to cut oxidise.  I would only NOT run the 1-2 oxidises as an extreame meta consideration.

[EvilSirMark]

in your opinion are the main deck oxi's really needed? Like I've said before the majority of my testing is invested in UR, I've only just recently started playing Urg fish. The lack of maindeck artifact removal has made me cringe at times, but never to the point that I would consider adding it. Is it just a given that by running the green splash, we will be adding the oxidize?

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Oxidise is just reall, really good.  It get's rid of sundering titans, smokestacks, crucibles, sp3res if you get to 3 land, etc, ALL MAINDECK, improving any matchups against decks with artifacts immensely.  Even just to destroy a mox G is a good deal.  It can also kill opposing mishra's factories.  It's an incredibly versatile card that should almost always be played in any fish build running green.

[Zelyon]

MD oxidize is nice against certain decks, namely workshop decks. But I would much rather just run an extra null rod against any other deck. oxidize is not necceasry IMO.

[wuaffiliate]

I believe the reason the Oxidize are not currently main deck are because it increases the green spell count, lowering the number of spells that pump the dryads

That is a terrible reason for not running oxidize. Crucible is crazy against this deck, you need some way to remove it or you will lose. There are far too many artifacts out there that hurt to justify not running oxidize main because of dryads.

I know i want oxidize maindeck vs workshop decks, control slaver, modular/affinity. Not to mention that it's great cheap removal AND disruption.

Then again i think dryad is subpar in this type of deck.

[EvilSirMark]

ok so everyone is in agreement that whether you run Quirion Dryad or River Boa, if you're playing green you need 1-2 oxidize in this decks main. However nobody is really suggesting whatcshould be removed to make the space? I'll start by saying I really don't think taking null rods out is the answer. One of the deck's strong points are the 3 maindeck null rods that hose fully powered deck. Like I said numerous times though I could completely not understand what I'm talking about here so if I'm in err, please by all means explain. I welcome it. If you're not removing null rods, I think one Daze could be sacraficed for an oxidize, but where can we put the second? Do we need a second main?

[Lockdown]

Who was it on here that initially suggesting using dryad in fish?

In this thread, about ten posts in, Jacob says "Edit: this was my response to a PM suggestion of Dryad, but it should go in the thread too:". That PM was from me, though his response seems to indicate that he'd heard it from someone before. Barring that, I guess you can give me credit if you want, but it's not important - Type One people care wayy too much about that sort of thing.

i also suggested it, i believe it was on the first page of his original thread.

Sigh.  Points to thread entitled "Gay Gro"  That was all the way back in February too.  May not necessarily count because the deck is so drastically different, (hey it was February).   First person to suggest Dryad and Standstill together and for the most part got a lot of people complaining.  Prophets like me are never appreciated .

/endwhine

/somecontent
A few comments:
-Dealing with Aggro: You have Maze of Ith, Lavamancer, and Dryad essentially.  Maze of Ith is pretty much the only sure thing, the others are conditional.  Need to work out a way to deal with that.  Energy Field would be interesting, but it does have a fairly significant drawback.  Against aggro though, the only thing that most of them could do would be to use LD, and they run 5 at most.

-Dealing with Artifacts: I think the deck has plenty of hate right now.

-Dealing with the Graveyard: Not enough.  At this point in time, all you have to stop Dragon are 3-5 cards in the sideboard (Naturalize, Stifle, BEB).  You commented on how a) Tormod's Crypt gets shut down by Null Rod and b) how Ground Seal doesn't stop Crucible.  In response to that, a) it's not that hard to side out Null Rods for the Crypt, and even if you kept both in, it just likens the probability that you would draw at least one of them, and if you drew both, it makes it so that your opponent has to get rid of 2 cards instead of 1.  B) It is precisely because Ground Seal doesn't stop Crucible that you can use it to your advantage assuming you play your own of course.  As mentioned before, you have plenty of artifact hate, so chances are you can nail their crucible that way anyways.  Now I'm not advocating adding them all in, but I believe they are worth consideration.


And I'd like to congratulate Zelyon on doing a very nice job with the content of his posts.

EDIT: Wu, that's what my deck was.  For the most part, it used the fish build with Dryad and a few other cards like brainstorm tossed in.  There's a fair amount of similarity between that deck and Zelyon's build.  Anyways, I don't really care that much and good luck with your build of 'fish'.

[wuaffiliate]

I'll just post my list, what i believe to be the most solid Ugr Fish list. I am of the boa camp, because it's just better. I dont like daze in this deck, i cannot see any reason to run them over oxidize, echoing truth, or fire/ice.

I agree that there is little graveyard hate, i'm guilty of running none, but i just havent had any need to in my open metagame list (below). In my own metagamed version i run a mix of crypts and seals.

4 River Boa
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Spiketail Hatchling
2 Call of the Herd
1 Gorilla Shaman

4 Force of Will
1 Stifle

1 Echoing Truth (open to whatever you want to run, truth is wicked good.)

4 Curiosity
4 Brainstorm

3 Null Rod
2 Oxidize

1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

4 Mishra's Factory
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby

SB: 3 Artifact Mutation
SB: 1 Naturalize
SB: 1 Rack and Ruin
SB: 2 Stifle
SB: 2 Fire/Ice
SB: 2 Sigil of Sleep
SB: 1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Crucible of Worlds

Lockdown, i believe we were talking about dryad in ug/ugr fish not a bad gro deck :lol:. Your list was nothing like a fish deck, you ran too few threats, one of the strengths of fish is that it always has more threats. 4 threats + manlands is far too few. That list is pretty far from a fish list, and much closer to a gro list with some fish stuff throw into it.

EDIT: This would be what i would run in my meta.

4 River Boa
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Spiketail Hatchling
2 Call of the Herd
1 Gorilla Shaman

4 Force of Will
1 Stifle

1 Echoing Truth

4 Curiosity
4 Brainstorm

3 Null Rod
2 Oxidize

1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

4 Mishra's Factory
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby

SB: 3 Artifact Mutation
SB: 1 Naturalize
SB: 1 Rack and Ruin
SB: 1 Stifle
SB: 2 Fire/Ice
SB: 1 Sigil of Sleep
SB: 1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt

[TheIneffable]

With the rise of Workshop.dec either prison or aggro, even the changes that this deck has made, I just don't see how it can keep up. Sure post board you have Mutations for the prison matchups and R&Rs for the aggro, it seems that this deck is too weak given the rise of Crucible.

I like the idea of Quirion Dryad, it gives something that Workshop aggro has to worry about until they can get a 7/10 or Duplicant to deal with it. This deck also has extremely inherent problems with Blood Moon, but at least Gay/r could fetch for an island and BEB it.

It still seems to me that this deck attempts to help its obvious deficiencies in the aggro matchup, while still not dealing with the actual problem, Workshop. You get a cheap answer to Crucibles in non Workshop decks such as 4cc and you get to help yourself in the Fish mirror.

If I wanted to play a deck that beat Fish, I would not be playing an anti-Fish Fish deck. I still don't see myself justifying changing Gay/r into WTF/r except for one card. The only card that could make me think about changing to WTF/r is Artifact Mutation. That card is such a bomb versus Stax, other than that I am content to play Gay/r over WTF/r.

Maybe if Workshops aren't as popular in your meta, but they are too popular for me to wish to run this deck.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I don't see how you explain why gay/r is better.  This deck isn't an ant--fish deck.  It is a fish varient splashing green which improves matchups against workshop decks, other gay/r, and even aggro decks, while weakening it against 1 card: the blood moon that you may never face throughout the course of a tournament.

Md oxidise combined with mutation (or even R&R if you want) out of the board, as well as boa/dryad actually strenghten workshop matchups.

Edit: Oh and "the rise of crucible" is also fought by osidise.  Gay/r builds currently have no md way to get rid of it other than bounce+fow (if they run bounce), so green splash builds are stronger against that also.

[wuaffiliate]

With the rise of Workshop.dec either prison or aggro, even the changes that this deck has made, I just don't see how it can keep up.

Oh god you suck.

[TheIneffable]

I'm not saying that UR is better, I am saying that even with the extra hate it is still not a good matchup for URG. Yes it is stronger, but I don't like weakening the mana base for that advantage. Maybe I just fear Blood Moon too much to be willing to play this deck, even with the extra hate. But  having seen many of them go around, I don't know that I would be willing to add green.

Oxidize main is an advantage yes, but I don't think it is enough to give you the edge in the first game. Artifact Mutation does, but I think that game 1 is still not yours to win.

Gay/r and WTF/r both have trouble with Crucible, if it resolves, it has already done its damage most likely if they had something worth recurring. Oxidizing it is just a way to try and staunch the flow of blood, the wound has most likely taken its toll.

[Jacob Orlove]

I obviously haven't tested this deck at all.

I'd address your arguments, but most of them just come down to actually playing the matchup, instead of theorizing about how it might go.

There were a couple of points I'd like to address, though. First, Blood Moon. It's a big problem for this deck, but currently few if any decks are actually playing it, so I'm not worried. If you see it a lot, just add a basic island.

Second: this is not an "anti-fish Fish deck". It is in many ways the next step in the evolution of the Fish archetype, as the strengths of green extend to pretty much every matchup.

Edit: you posted again while I was writing this, so here's some more:

Third: Oxidize on Crucible. They have to spend 3 mana and land drops to use Crucible, so if you Oxidize it within a few turns, they'll often end up behind on tempo.