[Deck] Control Slaver Revisited.

[Mixing Mike]

I feel this deck has quite a lot of potential.  It's very strong in the New England metagame, as proven here,  here and here.  Here is my current decklist...

// Mana
    4 Island
    1 Library of Alexandria
    3 Underground Sea
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Volcanic Island
    2 Darksteel Citadel
    7 SoLo Moxen
    1 Mana Crypt

// Creatures
    4 Goblin Welder
    1 Pentavus
    1 Platinum Angel
    1 Sundering Titan

// Draw Spells
    1 Fact or Fiction
    4 Thirst for Knowledge
    4 Brainstorm
    1 Ancestral Recall

//  Utility
    1 Tinker
    1 Time Walk
    2 Mindslaver
    1 Cunning Wish
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Yawgmoth's Will

// Counters
    2 Duress
    4 Mana Drain
    4 Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Duress/Flametounge Kavu
SB: 2 Rack and Ruin
SB: 3 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Fire/Ice
SB: 1 Mogg Salvage
SB: 3 Tsabo's Web
SB: 1 Echoing Truth

Time to explain some card choices.

-Duress
This allows you to play beatdown vs. Control.  It's also MUCH better than Fire/Ice in the mirror.  Not to mention it flat out ends games for combo letting you reap their hand, then having Mana Drain online to totally end their presence in the game.

-Sundering Titan
This thing has become my new favorite card.  It's huge body and strip effect makes this my new first target vs. Control.  Best part is, even if they removes it, then they have no lands, one less removal spell for Welders/Pentavus, and probably used a great deal of resources to just find an answer to this thing.  It's a better Tinker target than Mindslaver half the time.  Not to mention if it hits vs. Fish, let them say their prayers.

-Darksteel Citadel
If you don't know about it already, then you're not playing the optimal build of Control Slaver.  This thing turned the Gorilla Shaman hate into a wasted resource.  It also helps when you're mana light, and need to play TFK, with only a Mox, Citadel, Island hand, saving you your first land drop.

-Tsabo's Web
This is the way to beat fish.  This turns their deck in to 6 untapping lands.  It works under Null Rod, it cantrips (sounds stupid, but the one card can win you games ( ::ahem Hyperion:: ), and it has no effect on you.  All you need to do is race their critters with your draw spells and Fire, and you'll probably end up winning, even if they resolve Null Rod.

-The return of Cunning Wish
Drawing it in the mirror lets you take your opponents presence out of the game.  This is so big.

-Platinum Angel
She wins to many games.  Not many decks can answer her, and her evasion is great.  I would post a list of decks that have trouble with her on the table, but it would just induce flames.  I will say though it is another creature that lets you beat fish.

-Problems with this deck that need improvement.

I've found this deck (in general) loses games to lots of Wastelands, and because it just stops drawing well.  The first isn't so much of a problem, as it happens to just about any deck most of the time.  The biggest problem to me is that the deck can have a great opening hand (having things such as TFK, Tinker, FoW, Brainstorm, Fetch, Island, Mox), and just draw into worthless stuff.  Sometimes I will draw into good stuff, but no Mindslavers/fat dudes to Weld in, and just sit and watch as my opponent just catches up and shuts me out of the game.  

Last night, in about 4 to 5 hours of magic (regular tourney length without Top 8), this deck 'pooped out' about 6 times.  The other decks we played had one bad game if that, and lost all others respectively.  Maybe I'm just unlucky, who knows.  But it's something that I'm concerned about.

[Covetous]

In what way is this an improvement over the Meandeck Titan deck that T8ed the SCG tourney?  The other deck seems to have a much more consistent base of card drawing, combining TFK, Intuition/AK as well as Brainstorm/Fetch.  If I recall correctly, the AK engine was inserted to allow enough drawing to prevent the "pooping out" that you referred to which is often considered the downside of this deck.  I also keep asking myself if the deck should be pruned down to 2 colors to allow more resistance to non-basic hate.  I certainly understand where the duress could shine, but I think that duress isn't a particularly good option versus many of the deck's problem matches, such as Fish and other good aggro decks.  True, the Yawgwin and DT are serious bombs in this deck, but are they worth opening up the manabase to a greater threat from wasteland?

[The Atog Lord]

To address Mike's issues:

Yes, a flood of mana-denial will hurt Control Slaver. When Keeper (Look! I can say that!) wins against this deck, it is often because Keeper played the land-destruction game. Shaman combined with Wastes and Strips can really hurt.

As for the "pooping out," I really haven't experienced that very much myself. Granted, there are certainly situations in which you and your opponent will spend a few turns just drawing a card, playing a land, and saying go; yet, I find that those games are often favorable.

Covetous,

The idea of removing black has been cast about before, but I really don't like that idea at all. Removing Duress? Sure, that's fine. Demonic Tutor? That isn't essential to the deck, I suppose. But the reason why black is even in the deck in the first place is Yawgmoth's Will. This card is one of the most powerful cards in the entire deck, and alone justifies black's inclusion. I can't tell you how many games I won using this card which no other card could have won. Indeed, this is one of the key cards in the deck, and I would sooner cut Ancestral than Will.

Here is my deck list from Cape Cod. I had a sideboard heavily aimed at Fish, which I did not play against a single time.

// Creatures
        1 Platinum Angel
        1 Pentavus
        1 Sundering Titan
        4 Goblin Welder
// Counter
        2 Duress
        4 Mana Drain
        4 Force of Will
// Drawing
        4 Thirst for Knowledge
        4 Brainstorm
        1 Fact or Fiction
        1 Ancestral Recall
// Other
        1 Cunning Wish
        2 Mindslaver
        1 Tinker
        1 Time Walk
// Black
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        1 Demonic Tutor
// Mana
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Black Lotus
// Land
        1 Library of Alexandria
        2 Darksteel Citadel
        3 Underground Sea
        4 Flooded Strand
        1 Polluted Delta
        4 Volcanic Island
        3 Island
// Sideboard
SB:  2 Fire/Ice
SB:  1 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  2 Mogg Salvage
SB:  1 Rack and Ruin
SB:  2 Duress
SB:  3 Tsabo's Web
SB:  2 Gorilla Shaman
SB:  2 Blue Elemental Blast[/list:u]

The sideboard is very flexible. There is also some room for flexibility in the maindeck. The Duresses, Wish, and one creature could all be replaced without causing too much harm to the deck.

[Mixing Mike]

In what way is this an improvement over the Meandeck Titan deck that T8ed the SCG tourney?.......... True, the Yawgwin and DT are serious bombs in this deck, but are they worth opening up the manabase to a greater threat from wasteland?

First thing first.  This deck does not revolve around beating down, but moreso activating a Mindslaver.  Taking an opponents turn is enough to stunt their game enough so no matter what they do, you'll always be a few steps ahead of them.  This deck has Duress, doesn't need to sideboard for combo, and has more resiliancy to hate (IMO).  

I personally feel like this deck beats around the bush by drawing tons of cards with AK/Intution.  I think it's using cards to try to combo out something juicy (i.e. Slavers, Titan/s, Plat Angel, Pentavus), then proceed to win.  I feel the deck should be in a more controlled direction, becasue it let's you use your 'juicy stuff' as a resource rather than a threat.  On the other hand, anyone can come right back and say the inherent broken-ness of the combo route will win games becasue it's just more broken.  In the end, it's comes down to playstyle over anything.

About the Wastelands, it's funny you've say that, because people will usually Wasteland the black sources once you've resovled a Goblin Welder.  Also, holding all your Red in your hand until you need it helps avoid Wastelands killing your more important color.  I've never had much of a problem with having a color when I needed it, unless 2 or more Wastelands were involved.

[defector]

I've been playing  around with a version of thsi deck and found that Wasteland isn't as nasty as people think.  I generally only need black up for 1-2 turns, and can often sit or pull a fetch to do it.  thic deck supports Blood Moon very well and that shoudl get rid of your Strip effect problem.  I run 5 Islands in mine to dodge my Blood Moon and they're Strip effects.  This build has a core that is very good arguing about Meandeck Titan versus a strciter control slavery is IMHO superfluous because what wins you games is the heart of Thirst+Goblin Welder=you lose.
defector

[KSesler]

Atog Lord:

I have PM'd you before about using Mishra's for the Citadels, and they have been working very well.
I can still activate and weld them when necessary, they can do damage, they block lackeys, work when null rod is out (unlike the Citadels), etc., etc.

I also added a strip mine and took out an off-color mox. I have also been pleased with this change.

Here is my current list:

// Creatures
1 Platinum Angel
1 Pentavus
1 Darksteel Colossus
4 Goblin Welder
1 Gorilla Shaman
// Counter
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
// Drawing
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
1 Mind's Eye
1 Ancestral Recall
// Other
1 Cunning Wish
2 Mindslaver
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
1 Fire/Ice
// Black
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
// Mana
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus

// Land
1 Library of Alexandria
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
1 City of Brass
4 Volcanic Island
4 Island
1 Strip Mine
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Fire/Ice
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Mogg Salvage
SB: 1 Rack and Ruin
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Gorilla Shaman
SB: 1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Fact or Fiction
SB: 2 FTK
SB: 1 Hibernation
SB: 1 Shattering Pulse


I had been running 2 Pentavus, but swapped one out for a Colossus, which has worked well so far in limited testing.

[Hi-Val]

First thing first.  This deck does not revolve around beating down, but moreso activating a Mindslaver.  Taking an opponents turn is enough to stunt their game enough so no matter what they do, you'll always be a few steps ahead of them.  This deck has Duress, doesn't need to sideboard for combo, and has more resiliancy to hate (IMO).  

I personally feel like this deck beats around the bush by drawing tons of cards with AK/Intution.  I think it's using cards to try to combo out something juicy (i.e. Slavers, Titan/s, Plat Angel, Pentavus), then proceed to win.  I feel the deck should be in a more controlled direction, becasue it let's you use your 'juicy stuff' as a resource rather than a threat.  On the other hand, anyone can come right back and say the inherent broken-ness of the combo route will win games becasue it's just more broken.  In the end, it's comes down to playstyle over anything.

Defense of the deck:

I don't see how Titan beats around the bush at all. The entire gameplan is draw freaking lots of cards and then put Titan out. Intuition grabs more than AK, and often it nabs three threats that the opponent must deal with. When you look at the card drawing, you might want to think of the deck as Hulk 2.0. It packs more draw than any other deck in the format. If the deck was about beating down, I'd run Ironworks and Colossus instead, or just use Transmute decks. It uses the same tactic that Slaver does-- disruption. The deck has a more complete disruption package because it can find its disruption cards faster than Slaver and has a more complete disruption package.

This is in contrast to the Gothenburg Slaver list that usually had to combo out with a massive Will turn, bringing back so much drawing and tutoring that the Pentavus lock was assured. Meandeck Titan doesn't need to combo out-- it uses ErhnamGeddon in one card.

In the words of teammate Rian (kirdape3), Titan just draws 14 cards and makes the opponent irrelevant. It takes the control mode by drawing so many cards that it has answers to every situation.

I feel that the best Slaver decks combine Mindslaver with cards that circumvent it's "ten mana Time Walk" effect sometimes, and that card is Sundering Titan. Taking a turn will stunt someone's advancement sometimes, but taking out eight lands will ALWAYS stunt them.

[Mixing Mike]

That's the thing Hi-Val, without out Pentavus, how do you deal with an onslaught of creatures, or resolved Exalted Angel?  You don't always have early Titan hands, and they can answer your Welders one-for-one.  Without Platinum Angel (I know you have it sideboarded), how do you just win games you had no right in winning?

Both decks can use Titan to the fullest.  If anything, I feel Control Slaver has more disruption then Meandeck Titan, thanks to Duresses.  You are much more easily disrupted because you have no answer to Gorilla Shaman in Game 1.

I already said it before, I feel Slaving your opponent is more than enough for you to win, andtherfore, there is no need to come out swinging like Meandeck Titan does.

@KSesler:
The factories are really a great idea.  I'd asume thy're very useful against Fish, and any form of control.  I'm very intrested.

[KSesler]

Mixing Mike:
Yes, the factories help against Fish and Control, among other decks, like FCG.
Also, sometimes people will waste the factories, allowing some of my red mana sources a better chance to stick around.

In the past, I was running 18 land and 8 non-land mana.
That seemed to be the bare minimum of land to run for both consistency reasons and with all the waste effects that are in many decks now.

19 lands has been working for me in an environment where lots of null rods, stifles and waste effects are used.

Strip mine can be used for mana as necessary, to finally give me a way to deal with opponent's libraries, and, occasionally, to handle man-lands.

[jpmeyer]

What we've noticed was that as Mindslavers became more common, they became a lot easier to play around.  In our testing anyway, our Mindslavers often started out as near game wins, but then later on were mostly turning into plays like "Brainstorm, Force it" or "Exalted Angel, Swords it," at which point you'd get more card advantage and a more likely win by just dropping the Titan.  Even with the latter hand, for instance you'll still almost certainly get a like 4 or 5 for 1 rather than the 2 for 1.

[Hi-Val]

The answer to all of your concerns lies in Duplicant, which now resides in the maindeck. The thing is, the deck may not have an early titan hand but will easily draw into it.

Also consider this: Control slaver has 3 more disruption elements than Meandeck Titan (1 mindslaver, 2 duress). What is the frequency that they will see those cards more than Titan will see its disruption cards, given how much it draws? What I am asking basically is that what deck can more reasonably find something like FOW. The answer is Titan, based on its much stronger draw engine.

Maybe I haven't explained it fully, but between Intiution and TFK, Titan WILL be in play by turn 3/4, guaranteed, without needing any more mana to be used and without needing more disruption to stall until the game is locked.

[paradigm]

Yes, the factories help against Fish and Control, among other decks, like FCG.
Also, sometimes people will waste the factories, allowing some of my red mana sources a better chance to stick around.

The idea behind using the citadel is that you have a indestructable artifact source for Welder - to prevent "in response" destructions and Gorilla Shaman when you need to Weld in a threat. Usually the Wastelands would aim for colored sources anyway. The ability to "Time Walk" through your Welders greatly reduces the effectiveness of TFK.

[The Atog Lord]

The Factories are interesting, as they are Welder targets which are immune to Shaman and immune to Null Rod. A potential concern is that they are still vulnerable to other artifact removal, cannot be pitched to Thirst, and can be removed by Wasteland and Stripmine.

As for Meandeck's Titan deck. Hi-Val certainly did well with the deck in the Star City tournament. That sure seems like a lot of draw power in the deck. I'll admit that while I have played a bit with the deck, I did not try it enough to get a full account of its strengths. My initial concern is the mana base. Have you found playing with 15 land to be problematic?

My other concern is that the Titan deck seems to be strong where Control Slaver is already strong, but does not seem to have fixed any of the gaps in the Control Slaver deck. I'm sure that the Intuition Engine is strong against control decks such as Keeper and Tog, because you get to outdraw them. However, Control Slaver is already good in those matchups.

On the other hand, Meandeck Titan does not look like it is any stronger than Control Slaver in the matchups which are more difficult. Against a deck like Fish, it appears that Meandeck Titan has few if any advantages over Control Slaver, and Control Slaver's Angel is very important in that matchup. Against a Combo deck, I'm not sure if the Intuition engine is fast enough to matter.

Again, Doug has played Meandeck's Titan more than I have, so I may well be missing something. While the deck indeed looks strong against the decks from the Ohio metagame (mostly control decks, from my experience), I'm not sure how much it gains against decks that use the attack step and combo decks.

[Hi-Val]

The biggest gain that it has is a warm 7/10 body with a healthy huge ass on it. The most underrated card in the deck is Intuition. A first turn Welder with a second turn Intuition guarantees that aggro will be having just as hard of a time. Titan is pretty bomby against Fish, thanks to their light land count and the secondary effect of nailing the stuff they power manlands with. I'll admit that the match is no walk in the park though.

Slaving an aggro player doesn't do much. Putting big fatties out does. With the same tutoring power of Control Slaver and added Intuitions, Titan can more reasonably find answers.  

Also, one of the first things I did after the tourney was to add more land. I found that removing two sources against Fish (crypt and vault) that I was playing into their plan. Basic Islands and Citadels go a long way here.

I'll be the first to admit that the combo match is not easy. I've been trying SB Duress to help that out, but I think the biggest thing going is that nobody is playing combo right now.

[KSesler]

Paradigm:
I am more than familiar with the idea of Citadel, as Richard Shay and I talked about it at Origins.

I used the Citadels for a few weeks, including at one of the Origins tournament, but have found the Mishra's much more effective in my area.
In the Columbus meta, though, the Citadels may be the better card.

As Richard points out, there are still cons to using the Mishra's.
So far, though, the pros outweigh the cons for me.

For artifact counting purposes, I count the Mishra's as 1/2 of an artifact.
My build, then, has 13 artifacts, plus 2 1/2 artifacts, for a total of 14.
For thirst purposes, this seems to be the right amount of artifact sources.

[Mixing Mike]

Hi-Val, you said how Slaving an aggro opponent isn't all that impressive.  However, both decks already have a favorable matchup against these decks, so that point is irrelevant.

My biggest concern is how un/common combo decks and workshop decks are where you play.  Titan is trash in these matches, espically the latter.  In metagames filled with workshops, control, and combo are the metagames where Control Slaver shines the most.

[The Atog Lord]

I can say that the Ohio metagame is somewhat different than the New England metagame. At Origins at least, control decks were everywhere. I even cut Platinum Angel there. Here in New England, on the other hand, in the last two tournaments I've been two, I've played against two Dragon decks and a Storm combo deck.

[Shirow66]

Hi-Val, you said how Slaving an aggro opponent isn't all that impressive.  However, both decks already have a favorable matchup against these decks, so that point is irrelevant.

My biggest concern is how un/common combo decks and workshop decks are where you play.  Titan is trash in these matches, espically the latter.  In metagames filled with workshops, control, and combo are the metagames where Control Slaver shines the most.

Control Slaver "shines" in those metas and Titan doesn't? Both decks are essentially the same so I fail to see how one would have such a huge advantage over the other. Seems to me that counterspells are the key in such a metagame, and both decks run the same amount. An extra Mindslaver or a Cunning Wish maindeck won't help you stop a combo deck going off turn 2. Neither will drawing an extra Island or three. I'm not saying either deck is better than the other, I'm just puzzled how you could claim they would perform so differently with so few differences. Why wouldn't you be able to play control with the titan deck?
I'll try and post a lengthier analysis tomorrow based on some tournament observations I did this weekend. Just my 2 cents.

[Mixing Mike]

@Shirow66

Titan is just a variant of 7/10 Split IMO.  You said both decks runs the same number of counterspells?  That's totally false, as Control Slaver runs 2-4 Duresses over Meandeck Titan.

Meandeck Titan is the Hulk replacement in today's metagame.  The only diffrence is that the kill card doesn't eat your cards, it eats your opponents cards (lands).

[Meddling Mike]

I'd like to critique a few of your decisions here

-Duress
It's also MUCH better than Fire/Ice in the mirror.

For starters, I think this is entirely wrong, especially while on the draw. So many times tog opens up on me with a turn 1 duress, I brainstorm, he checks out my hand, and hits a mindslaver, goblin welder and some land. Atta boy, good job! It's far better against decks that don't benefit from noncreature, nonland spells hitting the grave from time to time as well as brainstorm for hiding cards of value. Fire/Ice however owns not just one goblin welder but possibly TWO goblin welders should your opponent foolishly overextend. being the only player with an active welder is KEY in the mirror match.

Sundering Titan
Not to mention if it hits vs. Fish, let them say their prayers.

Yeah, this is probably not Fish's favorite card to see coming down the pike, but it may not be the game over card you may think it is. Swinging in buys you one random dork that the fish deck can generate at will, then they get their turn and come in with all but a single random 1/1 to block with, repeat until dead. Hanging him back on defense is far worse as they'll simply fly over with their many flyers completely unhindered. Plats is far better in that the beatdown plan no longer works until they've dealt with her, which you can most likely postpone indefinitely.

Darksteel Citadel
This thing turned the Gorilla Shaman hate into a wasted resource. It also helps when you're mana light, and need to play TFK, with only a Mox, Citadel, Island hand, saving you your first land drop.

Gorilla shaman is still the nuts in the matchup, certainly NOT a wasted resource. You basically just have a potential out to their shaman rather than being entirely helpless outside of drawing tinker or somesuch. And also if you've got two lands and a mox in your opening hand, I'd say that's just fine, not mana light at all, in fact, I wouldn't really want more than 3 mana sources in my opening hand.

Tsabo's Web

This is the way to beat fish. This turns their deck in to 6 untapping lands. It works under Null Rod, it cantrips (sounds stupid, but the one card can win you games ( ::ahem Hyperion:: ), and it has no effect on you. All you need to do is race their critters with your draw spells and Fire, and you'll probably end up winning, even if they resolve Null Rod.

For starters, it can have an effect on you, your library could be nullified, I would advise you to take that into account before playing the web. and the cantrip is more effective thanks to a little card I like to call goblin welder, the potential recursion is significant with regards to the cantrip if attempting to break open a stalemate.

I've found this deck (in general) loses games to lots of Wastelands, and because it just stops drawing well. The first isn't so much of a problem, as it happens to just about any deck most of the time. The biggest problem to me is that the deck can have a great opening hand (having things such as TFK, Tinker, FoW, Brainstorm, Fetch, Island, Mox), and just draw into worthless stuff. Sometimes I will draw into good stuff, but no Mindslavers/fat dudes to Weld in, and just sit and watch as my opponent just catches up and shuts me out of the game.

Look, with that opening hand, you should be more than fine, or you're terrible. Regardless of what you draw after, you can play island turn 1 without fear of wasteland, EOT brainstorm, fetch for something, then cast tinker with FoW backup. If he has a strip or two counters, then he's pretty damn lucky, chalk it up to that, not the deck "pooping out"

[Hi-Val]

Combo is a somewhat hard match for both decks. That's why post-board they both have Big Platz and 2-3 Duress. My Chalices came out for them a long time ago. When it comes down to it, Titan sees more cards than Slaver does, so in the short run at least it has a better chance of finding FOW. Both decks can probably crank out a Mindslaver at about the same time.

This deck is NOT 7/10 SPLIT. Do you see Draw-7s or wastelands or trinispheres or no FOW? It's a Hulk deck. Against Workshop decks I don't really see a difference between the decks. Both hope to get lucky R&Rs and win the Welder rush.

It seems that people are divided into thinking that one deck is completely superior to the other. They're not. Slaver's use of MD Duress makes it stronger vs. combo and the draw engine in Titan makes it better vs. control. Thanks to lots of powered players in Ohio, I tend to see a lot more control and Fish than combo, and I think that even the SCG event showed that.

[Mixing Mike]

Hi-Val first...

I know Meandeck Titan isn't 7/10 Split.  But how many games do you win as a direct result of Mindslaver rather than Titan?  What I'm saying is that 7/10 Split just wins with pure Titans a lot better than Meandeck Titan.  Control Slaver does very well against control, espically with adding the Duresses. I believe it did take 2ed at GenCon, in the Ohio metagame, so I say Control Slaver has just a good of a matchup against control as Meandeck Titan does.

So many times tog opens up on me with a turn 1 Duress...

Tog is not the mirror, but your point is taken.  But don't forget that Duress can take out your opponents Fire/Ice, and other spells before you play a Welder, or before your opponent has a chance to play said spell.  That's pretty important if you ask me. I'm going to quote ELD from the Type I Forum for a little help on this one....

Nothing punished a player on the draw who mulls into an excelllent hand of 5 or 6 as much as Duress.

Yeah, [Titan] is probably not Fish's favorite card to see coming down the pike, but it may not be the game over card you may think it is.

They play 4 Volcanic Islands and 2 Islands.  How is Titan not a game over card compared to their mana base?  You can get it out faster then they can land their Curious Lavamancers/Standstills (in my experiences, they will usually wait until they have enough pressure on the board before they play Standstill).  Once you have Titan and a Welder , you've taken Fish player completly out of the game.

For starters, [Tsabo's Web] can have an effect on you, your library could be nullified, I would advise you to take that into account before playing the web.

Your 1 card (that you can only get on the draw mind you) compared to their 5 Strip effects, 1 Library, 4 Factories, and 2 Conclaves.  I'm not worried about the 1:12 ratio here.  Besides, if you have to worry about taking out your own Library against fish, then you're already winning.

Look, with that opening hand, you should be more than fine, or you're terrible. Regardless of what you draw after, .....

The problem I'm talking about is how you don't draw into anything useful until your opponent had ended your presence in the game, nevermind what your opponent does.

-D

[Hi-Val]

In the SCG tournament, out of maybe 15 games, I won four as a direct result of Mindslaver.

What you've got to realize is that the deck has the capabilities to use both Slaver and Titan to their full potential. 7/10 Split can't get Titans out any faster than Meandeck Titan can and it uses a terrible manabase while it does. I can't reiterate this enough: Slaver solves problems that Titan does not. It breaks ground stalls by suiciding creatures and ruining hands. Titan does the general brunt work of winning most games.

Titan is the pack of thugs you send to break someone's knees and Mindslaver is the trained assassin. Both get the job done in different ways and sometimes one is faster than the other.

[Meddling Mike]

It appears that you may need further clarification here:

Duress
Tog is not the mirror, but your point is taken. But don't forget that Duress can take out your opponents Fire/Ice, and other spells before you play a Welder, or before your opponent has a chance to play said spell. That's pretty important if you ask me.

Nowhere have I ever said that duress was bad nor the wrong choice for the deck, my gripe is rather that you stated this card was far superior in the mirror match. Duress is not nearly as powerful against a deck with brainstorm that doesn't necessarily mind ditching certain cards. Against a large number of other decks duress is excellent.

They play 4 Volcanic Islands and 2 Islands. How is Titan not a game over card compared to their mana base? You can get it out faster then they can land their Curious Lavamancers/Standstills (in my experiences, they will usually wait until they have enough pressure on the board before they play Standstill). Once you have Titan and a Welder , you've taken Fish player completly out of the game.

Well, I don't quite see how comparing a sundering titan to fish's mana base will help, I'm going to just go ahead and guess that you meant "considering" their mana base. Ok, so you get to nuke 2 of their lands at the absolute max and could quite possibly nuke one of yours (Underground Sea). I don't think killing off two lands just wipes them out of the game, but maybe that's just me.

I'll also not debate that if dropped within the first 3 or 4 turns titan will most likely be the end of that. But in many cases titan will come later in the game when they have enough little dorks like kai, cloud of faeries and other such chumps out to get in the way of Mr. 7/10. So, they've already dealt a few points of damage to you, you've taken some damage from crypt/FoW/Fetch. At this point the fish player can swing with his many flyers leaving one random dork back to block your big bulky man, eventually he plays a few more and he has enough chumps to keep from taking too many hits from Titan and eventually kills you with his little dorky flyers. I don't see how having a welder drastically changes the situation, as you'll most likely just end up nuking most of your land in the process. I also fail to see how a lavamancer being curious or a standstill is really a gamebreaker either. The fish player would most likely not play the standstill if you have the welder in play and the titan in the yard and the artifact in play.

I have seen this occur on more than one occasion, A turn 1 tinkered up sundering titan was held at bay by random 1/1's with abilites while friends came through for the win. Sundering Titan is NOT a lock and gets progressively less effective as the game progresses, especially considering you're not running fire/ice to clear a path for the big man.

Your 1 card (that you can only get on the draw mind you) compared to their 5 Strip effects, 1 Library, 4 Factories, and 2 Conclaves. I'm not worried about the 1:12 ratio here. Besides, if you have to worry about taking out your own Library against fish, then you're already winning.

Well, I think library of alexandria can be gotten at any time in the game, not just on the draw. Also, I at no point told you that the tsaboo's web was bad, you had simply made a false statement (that it in NO way effects anything of yours) and that you had neglected to mention some of the stronger points about tsaboo's web (artifact can be welded back if countered and coming into play ability can be abused with welder to break open matchup)

The problem I'm talking about is how you don't draw into anything useful until your opponent had ended your presence in the game, nevermind what your opponent does.

Ok, allow me to attempt to translate here. "Despite god hands, after I combo off and win the prize I draw into chaff cards, don't react to anything your opponent does" I'm sorry, this still really doesn't make any sense to me. Look, why don't you try and elaborate a bit more here and talk about these dead cards you claim to be drawing into. This deck has an excellent draw engine for those capable of playing it out properly, subtle things like hanging onto a mox to ditch to the TFK in case it doesn't turn up a fat artifact are important things. If you draw too many lands or something that's what brainstorm/fetch combo is for.

[Hi-Val]

Against Fish, nailing one or two of their lands can be clutch thanks to being able to shut down Lavamancers and manland activation. It's usually what wins me games.

[Meddling Mike]

Against Fish, nailing one or two of their lands can be clutch thanks to being able to shut down Lavamancers and manland activation. It's usually what wins me games.

Well Hi-Val, that's the beauty of the situation, if lavamancer does get shut down, he simply becomes one of those 1/1 dorks left back to block I was speaking about before. Fortunately, Fish's mana base is more immune to titan than other decks like keeper, hulk, GAT or mirror for example. I'd say not having activation mana for a conclave or a factory would be more problematic than anything. What I'm trying to say is that Fish get in enough early damage, has enough evasion guys and enough random 1/1 blockers to effectively race a titan. Plats is hands down the superior fat creature in the fish matchup. I also like the fact that Pentavus can theoretically play offense and defense simultaneously if you manage to keep the null rod off the board.

[Hi-Val]

I've seen this argument enough that I think we need to talk about it more. Why it Plat a better choice than Titan? Here's a situation that Titan does:

Titan comes down, shuts off Lavamancer. Opponent cannot attack with non-fliers or risk losing their best to the titan. They block the titan and can't lavamancer because they haven't hit lands. They cannot activate Conclaves because there are still no lands. They are losing a man every turn and cannot consistently draw into another before they eventually die.

Platinum Angel comes down alternatively. It can't attack because Conclave can block and Lavamancer can finish it off. As soon as they find another Lavamancer, you die to a hideous alpha strike.

Posters keep saying that Angel is better than Titan. I want someone to illustrate to me a specific situation, not just "losing life race" where Angel is 100% better than Titan. It seems that such a situation is very narrow, but I'd love someone to prove me wrong.

[Elric]

Hale (Purple Hat)'s new mono-brown deck, Crusher, has Ornithopter as a flier and is incredibly fast.  It doesn't have any main deck answer to Platinum Angel, however.  When I played with the deck against Control Slaver, Platinum Angel was the main way that Slaver won games (Drain-Angel, Tinker-Angel, Welder + Thirst + Angel).  With only your own duals to hit, Sundering Titan wouldn't do much except absorb chump blockers, or trade with a Cranial Plating'd creature, causing you to lose even more land.  

I'm not saying that Platinum Angel is a better choice for the deck, just that it is clearly much btter against Crusher.

[The Atog Lord]

Hi-Val may have a low opinion of Platinum Angel because of where he plays and his local metagame. Myself, while I did remove the Angel for a while, I am convinced that I was mistaken to remove her in the New England metagame.

If I had left Platinum Angel in my deck for the Maine tournament, I would quite likely have another Black Lotus in my binder.

Angel is an auto-win against more than a few decks, no excluding Crushing Chamber. In fact, when I was testing against Crushing Chamber, most games ended by my getting an Angel into play. The Blue Green madness list also has no way to deal with her.

There are also those decks, such as Virtual Insanity, which, while capable in theory of removing the Angel, will almost certainly lose once she gets into play. Fish is one such deck, needed to double-Lavamancer her to handle her. I have lost exactly one game where she has hit play against fish, and have won many, many others.

At the same time, I am rather unimpressed with Titan against Fish. Last night, to be sure, a first-turn Titan went all the way, but even then, the game was rather close. More than once, however, I have seen Fish race a Titan. His lack of Trample combined with Fish's nigh endless parade of chump blockers sometimes leaves him insufficient. On the other hand, it is quite difficult for Fish to assemble the double Lavamancer necessary to take down the Angel before losing to Control Slaver.

That being said, again, I can understand why Doug has removed her; in the Ohio metagame which I experienced at Origins, overrun with Control decks as it was, she is a suboptimal choice. However, in my own experience in my metagame, she remains a vital component of the deck.

[Mixing Mike]

For the record, I have always been a fan of Platinum Angel.  Even when Rich cut her, I tried to convince him she's a must play.

Dated on 7/25/04
The Atog Lord: and if I keep working on it, I'll make [Control Slaver] beat fish I hope
xMixingMikex: with what?
The Atog Lord: Fire/Ice makes its return
The Atog Lord: and Plat Angel is obv back
xMixingMikex: finally
xMixingMikex: well, it's good to see you come back rich, lol

If you ask me, it doesn't matter where you play, the Immortal Angel is a must.  No arguement will ever make me cut her.  Her role in the deck is winning games that Slaver, Titan, or Pentavus won't win me.  Tinker-> Angel has won me just as many games as Tinker-> Titan, Tinker-> Pentavus, and Tinker-> Slaver.

@Hi-Val, Angel does two things in the Fish matchup.  She beats down and wins, or she stalls until you find an answer.