Yet another newbie 4cc...

[Doozer]

//NAME: C4
 SB:  1 Damping Matrix
 SB:  1 Crucible of Worlds
 SB:  1 Blue Elemental Blast
 SB:  1 Gush
 SB:  1 Mystical Tutor
 SB:  1 Disenchant
 SB:  1 Swords to Plowshares
 SB:  1 Skeletal Scrying
 SB:  2 Flametongue Kavu
 SB:  3 Red Elemental Blast
 SB:  2 Rack and Ruin
        1 Decree of Justice
        3 Exalted Angel
        4 Force of Will
        4 Mana Drain
        1 Time Walk
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Fact or Fiction
   3 Cunning Wish        
        2 Skeletal Scrying
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        1 Mind Twist
        1 Balance
        2 Swords to Plowshares
        1 Gorilla Shaman
        2 Fire/Ice
        4 Brainstorm
        4 Flooded Strand
        1 Strip Mine
        4 Wasteland
    1 City of Brass      
    1 Plains      
        2 Volcanic Island
        3 Underground Sea
        3 Tundra
        1 Library of Alexandria
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet

Thats the list.

Meta Game-I play mostly local events but sometimes I get a wild hair and go to an out of state tourments like TheManaDrainOpen in Ct. or something like that. The local Meta look like this. random t2 players, 7/10 split, tog, RectorTrix, Fish, fullenglishbrakefast, random sui, sometimes sligh and TnT.

The deck is just about how I want it and runs very well. (on a side note, I fixed this deck awhile before the SCG's tourment. And when I read a few reports I was surprised to see the meta reflected mine. I kinda wounder how I would have done....)

The problems I'm haveing are the following. The three cunning wish(s) are really good first game but afterward I end up boarding them all out.
I'm thinking of going to two. I'd like feedback on this.

Reasons for three cunning wish(s)...
1)pitch to FoW
2)If I make a bad choice, I know that two more are waiting.
3)Most of all, I've played Magic for about five years and I played mono blue control for three years before starting to play Keeper/C4 for about a year or two. The one thing I've learned was, It reallyyy sucks not to have an anwser for a threat. So I figure three wish(s) would be nice and except for the reasons listed above, three works fine. If I were to drop a wish I would mostly add the third scrying.

The other problem....Land hate... While Crucible takes care of land problems in second game, Their is not much I can do about random sinkhole/waste land/strip/ ect...I did read a great form about how some people will go for a underground before a city. Which is very true in local tourments. Anyway what I have now is, one city and one plains. What I want is have two citys and one island. I have noo idea on how to fix this. Feedback would be grately excipted.

[Marton]

Ok, please -- *please* -- try and make the decklist more readable. Here's the 'corrected' version.

//NAME: C4

1 Decree of Justice
3 Exalted Angel

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
2 Skeletal Scrying
1 Fact or Fiction

1 Time Walk
3 Cunning Wish
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mind Twist
1 Balance

1 Gorilla Shaman
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Fire/Ice

1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet

1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 City of Brass
1 Plains

total: ? (60?) cards


SB: 1 Damping Matrix
SB: 1 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Gush
SB: 1 Mystical Tutor
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Skeletal Scrying
SB: 2 Flametongue Kavu
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Rack and Ruin


Personally I think 3 cunning wish is a good thing. It's pretty much like an instant tutor, and tutors are good. I would just mention that sometimes 1x misdirection in sidebord can be a great cunning wish target. I will however mention that usually 4cc decks play with 4x skeletal scrying. Having 4x skeletal scrying have the advantage of actually 'allowing' you to play a small one and not hold it back for a bigger one. Having 4 has the other advantage of drawing into the next one when you play the first.

I would suggest that you try theses changes:
-move vampiric to sidebord (cut mystical tutor)
-cut decree of justice
-add 2x skeletal scrying main deck (this implies you remove skeletal from the sidebord)
-move the fact or fiction to sidebord (and even perhaps try this crazy idea: instead of fact in sidebord put misdirection since you already have 4x skeletal scrying in main deck.)
-add one island

You may view my recommandation for 4x skeletal scrying as strange, but theres a logic behind it. The general idea is that your 2nd/3/4 skeletal scrying will remove the first from the game, thus allowing you to cunning wish for that '5th' skeletal scrying *should* you need even more draw card. The other small advantage is that having more skeletal scrying means you remove more stuff from your graveyard, meaning you not only get 'more' draw cards from your cunning wish, but also more chance to replay your main deck material cards. It doesn't have a great synergy with yawgmoth's will, but that also depends a bit on your playstyle.

BTW: you should really use the search button before submitting.


-lol, I just saw your nice typo: 'fullenglishbrakefast' . It's not brake fast, its breakfast

-marton

[Doozer]

Thanks for fixing my list. I was lazy at three in the morning...

-cut decree of justice,

-This is just a meta game as all my other deck choices. Their are far to many 1/1's that people play, not to use it. Also, I think four ways to win is the right number.

You may view my recommandation for 4x skeletal scrying as strange, but theres a logic behind it...

Not at all. As I stated before, I am concidering a third scrying in MD.

[/quote]move vampiric to sidebord

This is just another odd thing I did because of my meta being soo random that in my notes, I saw that I boarded it in 95% of the time. Its good I think people should try it.

Maybe I need to state more clearly on what the main problem i'm having...

1.)three cunning wish(s). Would two work? If they do, I will most likely swap one for the third scrying.

2.)1 City of Brass
    1 Plains
This is apart of my mana base now. I need to find a way i.e. change something around to make room for another city to fix the color issue. (I guess it's like the 61 card people talk about to smooth the mana base out.)

This what I want to changes to my mana base to look like. But again, I am not sure about how to go about doing this.
2 City of Brass
1 Island


-If spelling and grammer were air, I would be a dead man...

[Mixing Mike]

I feel that Wishes should not be looked at as Tutors in 4CC.  They should be there as an answer-of-all-answers.  That's why running Scrying in the board is the worst idea IMO.  I've won way too many games by Scrying for 2-3 into another Scrying.

P.S. I know I have Vamp in the board, but Vamp can be used to find an answer, even if that answer is say Mind Twist for a Library of Alexandria.

[Addolorisi]

I'd tell you to stick with 3 Wish.

It reallyyy sucks not to have an anwser for a threat.

Angel is an all purpose answer to a large number of threats that you will encounter. Also, as a general observation: Too often, I've seen hardcore control players not be able to take the aggro role when they need to. Make sure you're not trying to gain perfect game control before dropping an Angel. It's an easy enough mistake to make. Sometimes, I even find myself holding off a Decree (in T2) by a turn to two to squeeze out a few extra tokens.

[Outlaw]

I'd say at least do this


-1 Vampiric Tutor (move to SB)
+1 Skeletal Scrying (craZy draw engine)

Its similar to the build I've been using and it has definitely been treating me well.  Vampiric serves as the "I need a card desperately" as a wish target but it works, as it finds balance and yawgmoth's will when you need them.

[Toad]

If you are not using at least 3 Skeletal Scryings in the maindeck, then you don't understand how the deck works.

[Doozer]

Thanks to everyone for helping me. It has helped out alot in fixing the problems ive been having.

If you are not using at least 3 Skeletal Scryings in the maindeck, then you don't understand how the deck works.

I am sorry you feel that way but I do understand the deck. Hence the reason I posted it to get feedback from. Also, 2 scrying(s) must not be that bad since someone came in 1st at StarCityGames not to long ago.

here are the changes I've done so far.
MD:
-plains
+island
-decree
+city

SB:
-mystical turor
+stifle

I still need to do alot of play testing to see if I need to add another scrying.

Thanks again for everbodys help.

[brturn]

I'll add my vote to the 3 Skeletal Scrying brigade.  It's been working well for me, not sure if I'm ready for the 4th one MD yet, but the arguments for it are pretty good.

Actually, removing the Skeletal from the board is an interesting idea, I just realized that 80% of my wishes pull Gush (it's free and gets me two cards deeper).  I think wish->gush is one of the strongest early plays with this deck, usually in response to a strip or 'must counter' from the opponent.  I  completely forgot that Skeletal was in the sideboard, and it's use there has faded.

I was never in favor of Vampiric Tutor in the board, but I can see the argument for a Misdirection..

I've also never been in favor of Fact or Fiction; I use it because it works, but always grudgingly..  4CC can't take advantage of the graveyard-filling potential as well as other decks can, so it tends to be 3U: Draw 2 cards.  As much as I dislike FoF, I don't think Skeletal is an acceptable replacement for it, the two have different uses.  If anything I would have 4x Skeletal AND 1x FoF.

My current sideboard:
3x Red Elemental Blast
2x Rack & Ruin
2x Flametongue Kavu
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Disenchant
1x Diabolic Edict
1x Fire/Ice
1x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Gush
1x Stifle
1x free slot (was Skeletal)

--Bryan

[Mixing Mike]

I've won way too many games by Scrying for 2-3 into another Scrying.

If you like winning, then that's all I'll say....

[Klep]

If you are not using at least 3 Skeletal Scryings in the maindeck, then you don't understand how the deck works.

I am sorry you feel that way but I do understand the deck. Hence the reason I posted it to get feedback from. Also, 2 scrying(s) must not be that bad since someone came in 1st at StarCityGames not to long ago.

No, Toad is quite right.  At least 3 Scryings are absolutely essential to the deck.  The reason Panas was able to do so well despite only having 2 is that the other deviations from the generally accepted build made it significantly stronger against Fish, which as you may recall flooded the top tables.  There is really no excuse for only running 2.

[Doozer]

I want to apologize, I realized soon after my last post that I had messed up what I was trying to say. So to fix it...

I post my decklist to get feedback on certein cards AND to find any ones to be moved around or slots that could be free to use other cards. One in mind to add was scrying. As you can see now I am useing two in maindeck and one in the sideboard. It's hard for me to make changes to my deck and not concider that I mainly play locally. So I think making a change based on the meta as a whole is wrong. On the other hand, I wanted to post my list to find slots that could be maximized so it would end up make the deck best as possible. AND yes, I do know how much fish was at SCG's. I did not attend and I'm not going to sit here and say, one deck to inslave them, and one deck to rule them all. Everything in t1 is diffrent. So again, its hard for me to make changes  Also, congrats to Panas for the win.  I will concider everyones thoughts and welcome more feedback.

P.S. -if I get anything else wrong, I will edit my post

[Cjkory]

Heres the thing...reading the name of the post i suspected a new player made or netdecked this deck.

Now tell me, WHY CANT I BE ONE OF THESE SCRUBS. If and when a new player can afford the 4C decks above then this game has provided me with nothing over the past years. Hell I have to go with fish cuz i cant afford the cards for others. Unless the person is playin 12 proxy they will be spending at least 300 for a couple drains to make 10 proxy.

This is irrelevant spam. Don't do it again.

-Jacob

[Doozer]

humm...

Well, This being the first time I posted something, I tryed to do the best I could. If you read, I say that I've been playing for five or so years. I couldnt post anywhere else and didn't really want to because I think there alot of people that dont have full accounts that are really good at t1.

Also, I think their where alot of "atemps" at this deck which get moved to the "newbie" section. Hence the name I chose to use.

So for eveyone (I'm not trying to be a mod) please read the whole thing before coming to a conclusion.

Wow-- Were getting way off track.

Update to my deck. I do not feel I should post another deck list. The changes I've done resymble everyones elses deck.

MD: 3 Scrying
       2 Wish
       1 Mystical(Still hate it)

SB:  1 Vamp

P.S. for anyone who cares. The only proxies I have are Exalted Angels.

[Dozer]

The three cunning wish(s) are really good first game but afterward I end up boarding them all out.
I'm thinking of going to two. I'd like feedback on this.

This depends heavily on what you like. I have had very good experiences with 3 Wishes, but have been forced to cut one due to space concerns when I fitted in two MD Crucibles. Seeing that you are running 2 Fire/Ice MD, which is -taken by itself- a good idea, and that you have 4 win conditions, I feel that besides adding the mandatory Scrying, your list (not being hampered by Crucible) might have enough space for both the third Wish and the third Scrying.

Looking at your description of the local meta, you might consider to go from 2 Fire/Ice, 2 StoP to 3 Swords, 1 Fire/Ice. It does not free up space for the 3rd Wish, but makes sense when you face 7/10, Rector and FEB. The space for the third Wish is, IMO, the fourth win condition. You only need three, preferrably (in that environment) 3 Angels. There, the extra Wish might fit, especially since it gives you added flexibility against varying opponents. The 2nd Fire/Ice can be SB'ed in your case.

I currently don't see a possibility to fit a basic Island. The only way would be to cut an Underground Sea, going to two, and put in a City, meanwhile converting the lone Plains to an Island. You will most likely not have enough B-sources in that case unless you find a way to fit the fifth Fetchland -- but in that case, you could as well play the third Sea again. With the necessary 3 Scryings, 4 Fetchies, 2 Seas and 2 Cities is just slightly too few. If you have a lot of BtB in your area, you might want to try it nonetheless.

As for your Sideboard, I personally am no fan of Gush SB, but if you face Titans, it might be wise to leave it in. I'd rather find a place for a Fire/Ice, though, and most likely is the Damping Matric getting the kick. Fire/Ice is just as good at stopping Welders, and against other decks, the rest of your board will shore up any weakness. I don't see Damping Matrix doing anything anymore that Fire/Ice can't also approximately do.
One Crucible is not really effective, so you should either cut it and play Sacred Ground instead, or play more than one. Then you will have to make room again, and that's going to be difficult.

So far,
Dozer

P.S.: Am I guessing correctly that your username is a blatant attempt to get my actually pretty small reputation rubbing up on you? If so, well... I don't think so. TMD's crowd is intelligent enough to recognize something like that. But anyway, keep up trying, and improve your grammar.