What impact will Crucible of Worlds have on the metagame?

[Zelyon]

The card seems to be popping up all over the place.

Many people have compared Crucible of Worlds to Black Vise in that it completely hoses control decks that don't pack enough cards to deal with it.

Reports of games being decided by who drops a Crucible first or games being tied because both players managed to drop a Crucible are widespread.

There is little doubt that combined with Trinisphere, Null Rod no longer sufficently hurts Workshop decks.

Some people even seem to be calling for it's restriction.

The single copy that most decks seem to run is probably not abusive enough to be considered meta distorting.

But what about the workshop variants that are packing 4 Trinisphere, 4 Crucible (along with the strip effects) and even more mana denial elements such as Tangle Wire or Sphere of Resistence. Does the ability of Workshop decks to relatively consistently be able to lay a turn one Trinisphere (to bait out FoW) and a Cruicible turn two along with a Wasteland turn two make the archeatype significantly deadlier? Against decks where the FoW isn't a concern, any Workshop player will probably outright win turn one or two whether with Trinisphere or with Crucible of Worlds. Is any non blue based deck capable of dealing with a start like that?

In short, do you think that the meta will rapidly shift in the coming few months as a result of Crucible?

I suspect that Crucible only becomes broken in decks where playing three copies are so is worthwhile and plausible and that pretty much brings the count down to Workshop decks. It seems to me that Workshop variants that abuse Crucible could well dominate the format.

Obviously, a card like Trinisphere pumped out by Workshop can be quite devastating as well. The problem seems to be that Workshop decks now seem to have far too many game winning bombs all possible first turn with a Mishra's Workshop or just a couple of Mox, and the type 1 catch all defence (Null Rod) doesn't effect many of them. The must counter count in workshop decks is already up to Crucible of Worlds, Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void, Goblin Welder (complete with Sundering Titans and Platinum Angels), Mindslaver as well as Smokestack, Tangle Wire and Sphere of Resistence which slow you down to a crawl if not countered. There are only so many threats that mulliganing into a Force of Will can deal with. Combined with Null Rod and Welder hate cards like Fire/Ice and Blue Elemental Blasts, mullignaing into a Force of Will was just barely enough to have a decent shot at stopping a Workshop lock before Crucible of Worlds was printed. Now with yet another incredibly powerful card added to Workshop's list of must counters, will any decks that can't win first turn be able to take on Workshop decks turn one. Or will we be left with another situation like growatog created, you must either dedicate maindeck slots to hating out (maindeck artifact hate) Workshop or be playing it or atleast playing a deck that can combo out first turn as long as it doesn't face a trinisphere or sphere of resistance by then. I'm not sure if the situation is quite that drastic yet. But it well might be getting there. And if it ever does, a restriction of Workshop might be the next step. After all, as Rasko put it, unrestricted Workshop in artifact decks is like an unrestricted Black Lotus in artifact decks.

[johnstown713]

It appears that Crucible of Worlds has already impacted the metagame but people still play their normal decks.  Crucible has become a must counter card and for that reason has changed the metagame.  The fact that their are so many strips make it a versatile card that can fit into most decks.  It does single handidly win games but I have seen people getting around it.(Wishing for a Rack and Ruin or something)  The metagame always shifts when cards like this come into the format.

Johnstown713

[Ifflejink]

I voted yes.

Having both played against and played using Crucible, I can say that it is incredibly powerful. In almost all decks running crucible, Wasteland and Strip Mine are also run. Infinite LD is quite a powerful effect. In Fish variants, Crucible, besides serving that purpose, also serves to recur manlands, making creature removal less effective against it. And let us not forget that Crucible can essentially negate land destruction.

On the other hand, it may not turn out to be restriction material, but rather a staple for certain decks. I say this because this was the same sort of hype that Chalice of the Void was getting last year, that it would completely shift the metagame, and some even said that it would ruin Magic.

In summary, although Crucible is quite powerful, I don't think that it's a candidate for restriction, but I do think that it may have an effect on the meta, but it probably won't be a huge one.

[Mixing Mike]

I also voted yes.

I've been in a winning position very early in far to many games, and my opponent topdecks Crubible, and just wins.  I don't have a problem with the power level of the card or anything, it's just that it I feel it imbalances the format.

Example 1

I was playing against Prison (wMUD if you must know) today.  My opponent was far behind in every sense of the word, and had no way out.  He draws Crucible the turn after I play Yawg Will, and I lose 2 lands, and then the rest soon follow.

Example 2

I was playing online (I know, online blows, but I was bored).  It was a Keeper mirror match.  We played about 7 or 8 games, and each one came down to whoever drew Crucible first.  It [usually] didn't matter whoever was up on cards, board positon, etc...  I think 6 games were decided by Crucible.  That's just not right if you ask me.

Comparing this card to the super broken stuff like Balance, Mind Twist, Library, and Yawgmoth's Will; it's right up there.  These cards need skill to be played at their highest potiential, but on the other hand, Crucible doesn't need any skill to be played well, it just needs to be on the table.

[Dnine]

I vote yes.  

I ran one main deck in a 4cc deck and one side board.  Almost every game I played it I won.  It either whiped out my opponants mana base, or recured fetch lands to stabilize my mana and thin my deck.  One of the strategies used agianst 4cc is to attack the mana base, this card negates that stratagy.  If I play this deck agian I will most likely try to fit a second in main.  In the tournament all 3 top decks ran this card.  I finished second.

[AngryPheldagrif]

The card's impact will be measured by the sticking power of what plays it. A first turn Workshop, Crucible can strike fear into even the most seasoned Type 1 player, but you must also remember that it is, in effect, a useless play. Sure that second turn Wasteland is going to be hellish, but for the time being it does nothing.

Compare this to a first turn Trinisphere. A first turn Trinisphere, assuming that you go first, means that your opponent will not be casting a single spell (barring mirror-match Workshops or combo with ESGs) for their first 2 turns. And only a single spell on the third. That's at minimum a double Time Walk. Meanwhile you're going to be able to play out beatsticks and tools with no fear of walking into a Mana Drain or Force.

Even midgame, Trinisphere is still a huge crimp in their plans. EOT tricks become significantly more difficult and tapping out becomes a death sentence. Any sort of explosive play such as Yawgmoth's Will is effectively neutered. Sure they can kill it, but Cunning Wish for Disenchant, etc. Is now a 3 mana play with Echo. They're not going to be able to do that until the 4th turn, at minimum. In the mean time you're free to smash face to your hearts content. The effects of simple mana disruption turn from being an annoyance to potentially catastrophic. Every Strip-effect you play becomes like a Time Walk.

Now, going back to our regularly scheduled discussion, we have Crucible. A first turn Workshop, Crucible followed effectively negates your opponents Strip-effects. Following up with a second turn Wasteland ensures a game-length 'soft lock' that prevents your opponent from accumulating large quantities of land-based mana. This 'soft lock' is often game ending versus mana intensive decks like Keaper, preventing them from doing pretty much anything, while brutal against pretty much anything packing non-basic lands. The only stuff it doesn't help against much is combo and straight color (AKA random ) aggro. And even there, since most aggro packs a full set of strip-effects, it has power. Still, aside from the much derided infinite Fastbond loops, this card is a soft lock with Wastelands, and protection from the same.

In conclusion, is it good? Hell yes. It's crazy with the stuff you can do. But it's just utility for the most part. It is not likely to be restricted because it is not a game-changing effect. As long as the first turn 'Workshop, Crucible, go' play is never errata'd to have some sort of effect on gameplay then there's always going to be decks that can completely ignore it. My Trinisphere discussion may seem out of place, but I'm trying to show that the effect Crucible has on gameplay is not all that major. Its a great trick, and can win you a lot of games you'd otherwise be hardpressed to take, but it isn't a broken deck on its own. Trinisphere is much the same, and neither seem to up on the chopping block as of yet.

The effect on Null Rod is fairly negligible, from the standpoint that the 'top deck' at the moment seems to be Kaeper, which packs 0 Null Rods, pre or post board.

Also, the comparison to Black Vise seems out of place. Black Vise, on it's own, is a 1-mana artifact (and completely unaffected by Null Rod), that punishes your opponent for keeping a full hand. A first turn 'land, Vice, go' all but ensures that your opponent is heading for 3 damage. Black Vise was once the weapon of choice for decks like Sligh, to give them a must-counter drop to keep Control on it's toes. Crucible is a 3 mana drop that is only a must-counter when combined with a Strip-effect and is circumvented by basic lands, in addition to being less powerful later in the game.

I do not see Crucible as either forum defining or forum distorting. Take this with a grain of salt, though. I'm a combo player straight through.

-Dan

[edit]: To clarify, I do think it's going to have a major effect, just not a drastic one.

Also, @Mixing Mike, what were you playing against Prison? If it's the turn after a big Yawg Will you should be able to either counter it or find an answer. Or beat down with whatever you had at the moment (Exalted Angel, etc.)

[Smmenen]

Absolutely it will have a distorting effect on the metagame, but not in a bad way.  


Steve

[Marton]

time to stock up the sacred ground and karmic justice (no seriously, go read the card) Could white become an acceptable sidebord color ? I know that oxidize is probably a better card, but still karmic justice and sacred ground is a real stax-breaker as well as a crucible punisher.

I guess we will also see increased use for darksteel citadel (as some stax started doing vs shaman and crucible).

[Shock Wave]

I really dislike the card and think that it needs restriction. It is absolutely awful for the game in general.

[Silverdragon]

I agree with most of you that Crucible will affect the metagame but not that drastically to justify a restriction.
I could image Crucible being played in almost any deck but most of the time as a one-of because multiples of them don't work together and it is useless later in the game when both players have plenty of mana.
Like AngryPheldagrif did, I compare Crucible to Trinisphere as both of them are often seen as a first-drop in stax builds and can lock the opponent down completely with the right draw. Nonetheless (although both can take effect until lategame) I consider Trinisphere the worse thread because it can take down combo too.

[The Grim Reaper]

I really dislike the card and think that it needs restriction. It is absolutely awful for the game in general.

I am going to have to agree with Shock Wave here. I don't like any card that can be put in to almost any deck and allow you to win 90% of the time its resolves. Games should never come down to "Who can resolve <card> first" and proceed to win the game.

I'm undecided on whether it should be restricted or not, but the number of decks Crucible is showing up in is quite alarming to me. At first only workshops decks were running it, but now it's being thrown into every deck imaginable in quantities of 2-3 at least!

This is NOT a fun card to play against.

[jpmeyer]

I have two problems with it.  The first is the obvious "you either play it or you play a way to beat it."  The main one though is that if you want to "play a way to beat it," the best way to beat it is to run your own, therefore increasing the already high number of decks that could/should be running it.

[The Grim Reaper]

I have two problems with it.  The first is the obvious "you either play it or you play a way to beat it."  The main one though is that if you want to "play a way to beat it," the best way to beat it is to run your own, therefore increasing the already high number of decks that could/should be running it.

Yes. You hit the nail on the head.

[Mixing Mike]

Mixing Mike, what were you playing against Prison? If it's the turn after a big Yawg Will you should be able to either counter it or find an answer. Or beat down with whatever you had at the moment (Exalted Angel, etc.)

Since you asked for details....

I was playing Control Slaver, and didn't draw into a FoW, nor Goblin Welder until all my red mana was gone a turn later, with much thanks to the topdecked Crucible and Karn.  The thing was that I was set up to win by slaving him next turn, only because I hadn't been able to get a Lotus or Time Walk in a little more than half my deck (NOTE: I ran out of red mana to play a Welder {which would have dealt with the Crucible after 2 lands got blown up}, so I had it stacked on top on my library with a Brainstorm).  I needed one of my lands to stick around to slave him for at least 5 more turns, which probably would've won me the game.  He drew and played Crucible, wasted one of my lands with a Waste he had been using for mana, then re-occurred it and blew up another.  His Karn blew up the moxen I horded for my Yawg Will turn, and I never reached 4 mana ever again to activate my Mindslaver once.  I think it was about my 6th turn to be honest, and that I had missed 1 land drop.  Yes, he could have drawn a Wasteland and had the same play, but I'm more upset at the fact of Crucible possibly counting as Wastelands numbers 6-10.  It's just plain ludicrous.

This is NOT a fun card to play against.

Is Yawgmoth's Will fun to play against?  Mind Twist?  A game breaking Balance?  How about combo in general when you're playing without Force of Will or Null Rod?  There's always that turn 1 Trinisphere.  How about a turn 1 Metalworker into a Tangle Wire, shortly followed by a Smokestack, Goblin Welder, and then Karn for the kill, all while you have no lands in play that you can even use, and that's if you have anything in play at all.

My point is that T1 has a lot of cards that are not fun to play against.  You just have to deal with them.  I have no problem with losing games to anything in Type 1, I'm just not a fan of Crucible, for the same reasons JP has posted, and that it's just stupid good.

[urza_insane]

I don't think Crucible of Worlds is so much a distorting effect as it is a powerful effect. Look at all the current lists of decks with Crucible that place in the T8, very few have more than 2. Even many workshop lists with Crucible only play 2. What most people fail to realize is that playing with the crucible/wasteland lock also deprives you of your land drop. It is incredibly easy to break out of. I think at most people might start to pack a few Oxidizes or other cheap artifact destruction maindeck. I am at a lose as to why people think it is a restriction target! If it gets restricted then its true, the DCI has been hit by a bus. There has not been a proven Combo deck that can consistantly win on turn one or two that is based on crucible. In fact, there are no "broken" decks based on crucible. All crucible is used as right now is a support card. Crucible is nothing more than a powerful card, its by no means broken.

[TrixR4Kidz]

Crucible is insanely good... The card is constantly being questioned to be used in just about any deck, I luv the card to death (as I run 2 mainboard), my real concern is do you guys think that it will get restricted? I mean it seems like it sometimes gets out of hand, But either way, it's my favorite card printed in along time, oh and I voted, yes, but just like smmenen, I don't think it will be in a bad way.

[Methuselahn]

I'll agree with Smmenen here.  Crucible has a devastating effect on mana bases.  This may, in turn, force people to turn towards fast combo, basic lands, and decks like TPS.

[Sandster]

This is NOT a fun card to play against.

Is Yawgmoth's Will fun to play against?  Mind Twist?  A game breaking Balance?  How about combo in general when you're playing without Force of Will or Null Rod?  There's always that turn 1 Trinisphere.  How about...

If you do not play Force of Will, Null Rod, or combo in type 1 you pretty much deserve to lose regardless.  Force also answers said Trinisphere.

Yawgmoth's Will, Mind Twist, and Balance are all restricted.  The argument here is that Crucible is just as powerful as any of these cards and hence deserves restriction.  Playing the card is almost like splitting your library into lands and non-lands and drawing a card from each stack every turn.

The top 3 decks in the format all use (or is it must use?) Crucible now, both because the card is good in the respective decks and because every other viable non-combo deck seems to run the card.  A Lin-Sivvi caliber card is usually not good for the format.

[urza_insane]

The top 3 decks in the format all use (or is it must use?) Crucible now, both because the card is good in the respective decks and because every other viable non-combo deck seems to run the card. A Lin-Sivvi caliber card is usually not good for the format.

But there is one major difference between Lin-Sivvi and Crucible of Worlds: anybody can play Crucible. Lin-Sivvi was only played in one deck, crucible (as you said) is played in many. I think thats the biggest thing. No deck is really that much better at playing Crucible than any other. Sure Workshop can get it into play a turn or 2 faster, but its nothing more to them than another lock piece. This card should not even be considered for banning! The problem is that people are freaking out over an actual  good, playable card. It is incredibly rare for a good card to come out that almost any deck con use. Cards are usually restricted because they make one deck dominant. With Crucible that is not happening, its not pushing any deck way above another. Crucible is just a powerful card, but under no circumstances (currently) does it deserve to be banned.

Comparing this card to the super broken stuff like Balance, Mind Twist, Library, and Yawgmoth's Will; it's right up there. These cards need skill to be played at their highest potiential, but on the other hand, Crucible doesn't need any skill to be played well, it just needs to be on the table.

You raise a very good point... inadvertantly. Balance, Mind Twist, and Yawgmoth's Will are similar in power to Crucible of Worlds, but as you said Crucible has to stay on the table for it to be anywhere near as good. Staying on the table isn't nearly as easy as it sounds. This format is well prepared for artifacts of all sorts, most decks shouldn't have a problem getting rid of crucible post-board. If people have found answers to Trinisphere, then it shouldn't be impossible to find solutions to Crucible.

Don't restrict Crucible, spend two seconds thinking and you'll realize that all you have to do is be ready to face it! If this means playing an extra basic (like in the Back to Basic days) or adding an Oxidize maindeck, then do that and stop complaining about it good, but not so impossible to work around, card.

[JackPot76]

We have discussed this for about some weeks already at our Swedish forums. The problem isen´t Crucible the problem is Workshop based decks like Stax. Stax is a prison deck that this card can abuse more than any other deck. If workshop would be restricted then a turn one Trinisphere, CoW, Smokestack or whatever isen´t possible in the same way it is today. As i see it the only deck that really can make really good use of it is Ws based decks. Fish and Landstill can use it too but in Stax it´s house. Against Stax decks we had 2 weapons Force Of Will and Wasteland and now when they have CoW also then the Wasteland isen´t a problem for them. This acts as an extra oneway smokestack in the deck and it was hard too keep your perms with an smokestack on 1.  

If you are a Stax player and know what your oppponent plays he often takes mulligans too achieve a Turn one Trinisphere or other brokeness.
This gotta be stopped or we are going to have somekind of a crazy Workshop meta for Workshopplayers only.

Pack cards like CoW in all decks seems stupid just cause your opponent plays CoW.

Regards!
Jarmo!

[Dozer]

The problem isn't Crucible the problem is Workshop based decks like Stax.

There is no problem at all, IMO. Crucible is a strong card, nothing else. I'd go as far as to say that it is currently still underused, because every deck can take a huge advantage out of it. I voted for "yes", but I hold it with Smmenen and say that the impact Crucible has will be a positive one.

All the things I agree too have already been said in this thread. I just want to add that Crucible is not a Stax-specific threat, but rather rewards good deckbuilding. Workshop decks just seem like a natural fit because they can power it out so easily and Crucible shores up the age-old problem of having the Workshop wasted.
But the question of how many Crucibles (surely it's not going to be a one-of) and appropriate counter measures (be it deck choice or card choices) is skill-testing for every deckbuilder. Dedicated Crucible-Control has weaknesses that other decks can exploit easily. I love how Crucible breaks yet another rule of the game and makes you think twice about your resource management. The possibilities are endless, and I like that. A lot.

Dozer

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I'm not sure everybody will agree about this, but in my view the way you tell if a card is good in t1 is if it is distorting or not.  Fow, mana drain, null rod, wasteland, workshop, bazaar, etc all distort the metagame to some extent.  They are part of what make t1 t1.  Those cards are all really good, and thus distorting, but not broken such as necro, will, etc, and thus do not warrent restriction.  I'm with steve on this one; crucible is no different.

[Purple Hat]

I think Crucible has to get the axe.  It's only slightly over powered but it's interaction with other cards makes it broken.  The format is becoming "people who play Crucible vs. people who are fast enough not to care."  That's a problem.  It's the same kind of spy vs. spy metagame that Steve was talking about with decks like 4 Gush GAT.  Obviously everyone can play Crucible.  My problem with this is the same problem JP has with it though.  Not only CAN everyone play Crucible, but everyone SHOULD play Crucible.  No one says that about Bazaar, Workshop and Null Rod.  Mana Drain and Force are both reactive in nature and thus are probably safe enough.  I think we've all seen that Wasteland was safe enough before Crucible.  

I think the fact that people are willing to play Crucible on turn one just incase their opponent doesn't have the force shows how broken this card is.  Also if it is preceded into play by a 3sphere it produces an unrecoverable game state.  When did that STOP being one of the criteria for restriction?  I see the unrecoverable tempo swing as being the reason that cards like Yawg Will, Balance and Mind Twist are restricted.  Crucible does the exact same thing.  Cards aren't only restricted because of Combo decks it's just that combo decks are inheirently more likely to produce said unrecoverabe game state (game over) consistently.  By itself Crucible wouldn't be so bad, but it is type one's version of Skullclamp in type two.  When the format becomes "Play X or play a foil to X" it's bad.  When the most effective foil for X is X it's probably restriction time.  This card puts type one in danger of becoming Crucible of Worlds:The Format.

Hale

[Dr. Sylvan]

I won't bother making a long laundry list of the July decks with Crucible, but trying to hurt Crucible with restriction meets the same issue that Intuition usually does: it's run mostly as a two-of, sometimes three, and only in the oddball instance have I seen four copies. Many decks so far have been packing just one. If Crucible were determined to be that dangerous, I don't think forcing players to cut one copy of it is going to make it all that much better.

There's no easy answer here. GenCon will be our laboratory. Depending on how that goes, the articles will flow.

[Toad]

I won't bother making a long laundry list of the July decks with Crucible, but trying to hurt Crucible with restriction meets the same issue that Intuition usually does: it's run mostly as a two-of, sometimes three, and only in the oddball instance have I seen four copies. Many decks so far have been packing just one. If Crucible were determined to be that dangerous, I don't think forcing players to cut one copy of it is going to make it all that much better.

Well that is just because Type 1 is evolving slowly. Stax should run something like 3 Crucible of the Void maindeck and probably the fourth one in the sideboard for multicolor blue based Control matchups. Crucible was considered as being too slow to warrant a maindeck slot in 4CC but now people starts to maindeck a couple and use some in the sideboard too. Gay/Red and WTF have some. Shock Wave recommended running a couple of Crucibles in Landstill because It wrecks the deck.

The format will probably evolve into 3 kind of decks :

* The decks that can ignore Crucible of Worlds (Combo decks).
* The decks that cannot ignore Crucible of Worlds and will have to fight it.

What are the best answer to Crucible of Worlds? Maindeck artifact removal is fine, but quite narrow. Maindeck Crucible of Worlds is more interesting, since It helps to fight Crucible while allowing some fetchlands / Wasteland recursion of your own. So I order to fight Crucible, you'll end up running maindeck Crucibles too, reinforcing the impact of Crucible and forcing other decks to use it too.

The comparison with Intuition is inaccurate. Intuition gets Accumulated Knowledges and some other goodies. Right, that is strong. But It is by no mean similar to a card that allows you to kill a land per turn for free. I'm not even mentionning some synergy with Sphere of Resistance or Trinisphere here, just the impact of Crucible on its own. It's a single card that wrecks all sort of strategies (namely, multicolor control decks). What does 4CC do against a first or second turn Crucible? Scoop?

The comparison with Black Vise is more appropriated. Both are cards that can (and maybe should) be used in ~100% of the decks (I'm talking about unrestricted Black Vise here). Nevertheless, just have a look at what Black Vise does: It deals damage. Damage. Who really cares about taking damage as long as that damage is not lethal? Nobody. Especially if playing spells minimizes or negates the impact of Black Vise. Now, who cares about a resolved Crucible of Worlds on the other side of the board?

[Thug]

People should start seeing Blood Moon as an answer to Crucible, at least that will give us some diversity. Blood Moon only becomes better when more people start adjusting their decks too Crucible, and it already is a very good card versus a lot of decks (everything 3/4 colours, fish, dragon etc.)

If everyone continues to play CoW, decks with Exploration/Fastbond will become pretty strong. I also think we will see some more maindeck artifact removal.

Koen

[Whatever Works]

The card is format distorting and has created alot of problems for curtain decks. The real question is can these problems be fixed, and is there a realistic answer to the card? The answer is yes, because you can start running basic lands, or run more artifact hate. My Titan deck that is similar to Meandecks version I dropped down to 2 colors, because i could fit more basic lands and bloodmoon. The answer of basic lands dont only help vs. Crucible but help against any deck with 5 strip effects.

However, these changes were partially based on dealing with this card, and that means that the card had an impact on my deck, and would be an example of distortion.

[Pomaxx]

I really cannot understand how CoW can be format distorting in a positive way. That would mean, that the existing metagame or format in general would provit from the use of CoW . While i consider the meta to be really healthy (my dülmen experiences) at the moment with no dominat deck- how should CoW provide a positiv change? Change something good into something even better? Is it better if every existing deck packs CoW or a way to deal with? „Distorting“ as a terminus in eveyday use as in science is assoziated with something, that keeps a system from working effectively- i cant see CoW doing this to the format for now! Not in a „positive“ way or in a negative as well. If you  like the effect CoW has on the t1 format call it...mhmm...“refreshing“ or „innovative“ (my english is bad; if you did not realize it by now) but not „positive distorting“.
 I think CoW is NOT format distorting at all- it is a strong lock component for Workshop-Prison decks and a powerful mana denial card vs. Control.
I also think, you really cannot compare CoW to Will, Balance and Mind Twist. Those cards can turn the entire game immeadantly – CoW without 3Sphere or wastelands on the table puts you in a acceptable position- but it does not spell game over as Will can do. (that does occur for early/mid/lategame and topdeck mode ) Even with a waste- your opponent may have time to find a solution or bring out a threat you cant deal with. Cross-comparing cards does not make sense at all- but i am so brave to compare CoW effect to a library with medium hand size or a iso with fire/ice imprinted. (when thinking longer about the comparisions i can critizise them to ashes myself- i hope you still get the point!)

My actual landstill build uses 2 CoW – and i can say they improved the deck(also i must cut disks, which i never liked and find another way to deal with artifacts as CoW myself)

[Nameless]

I think what we really need to be asking ourselves is this...  How many people would be up-in-arms at the unrestriction of Strip Mine?  That's basically what we have here, for a 3cc Artifact we can abuse the holy shit out of our strips, and that's what is winning games.

It should come as no surprize to anyone that this is happening, after all mana denial has been one of the fundamental strategies throughout Vintage history.

Crucible is already warping the metagame, and proving itself to be a game-breaker.  Though nothing will happen prior to Gen, I certainly think that the fallout will be a restriction on the CoW.  If you think about it really it just has to be restricted.  It's too easy to end a game with CoW, not because your deck was any good at all, but because all you needed to do was play a full compliment of Strips along with 4x Crucible and win, it's just so randomly good.

Black Vise is a fantastic comparison here, because I remember well back in the day when I, and hell everybody else, packed 4 in every deck.  Hell, we played 4x Black Vice in decks with Hymns and Hipnotics for crying out loud, because it was that damn good.  You didn't have to have a good deck at all though, because any crappy deck could Ritual out a pair of Vices before you even got to play and the game was pretty much over right there.  Now it's very much the same with CoW...  You don't need a good deck at all, or even to play a specific color, you can put 9 slots from any deck going into 4x CoW and 5 Strips, and you can win a very large number of matches with that alone, no matter how bad the deck is, and since 5 of those slots are land you aren't really even tinkering too much with the base deck you started with in the first place.

I've seen every conceivable deck now running 4x CoW and winning with it, from Mono-Black discard to Sligh, and we aren't even talking Tier 1 decks here.  This whole concept in and of itself just isn't right.  If you can find it, go back and search the Wizards website for the paragraph that explains the restriction of Black Vice.  All you have to do is change the words Black Vice to CoW and you'll see that all the same things apply here.

I think what breaks the card is its Artifact status.  That fact that it comes down so quick with Workshop is just a bonus, since it's this same colorless attribute that gives it so much flexibility to fit into all these decks that are abusing it.  That's the funny thing about CoW...  You can't plan for it, because no matter what precautions you take it can still wreck you just as easily.  Sure you could start playing main deck Karmic Justice or Sacred Ground if you wanted to, but it can still come out quick and rape you before you can even cast the spells.  Sure you can only use decks with FoW, but you have to draw it just the same, and hope no other 'must counter' spells hit the table.

While Workshop decks can abuse it quite handily...  What you really need to be looking out for are the Mono-Black variants that pack it.  Why?  Because they are much cheaper to build, and with Dark Ritual they can throw out a Crucible just as fast.  Not only that, but they are likely packing Duress/Hymn to go with it.  Bad enough to get hit with early discard, but to have the game sealed up by CoW right behind it and you're done.  No deck in the format can recover from that kind of beating, and the real ass-kicker in this...  CoW is the most expensive card they need to play.

Think about that for a moment...  The deck that can abuse CoW the most is one of the cheapest in Vintage, and it gives up nothing in speed compaired to Workshop decks.  THAT is why I say it needs to hit the restricted list, because given the very cost-friendly nature of the deck, and how strong it is because of this one card, you will very likely see a LOT of it.  They don't even care about playing discard against Goblin Welder, because you won't be casting shit anyway expect the Welders, so all they need to worry about is killing 1 or 2 Goblins, and it'll be over before it began, and again this is again Workshop decks that are dominating a very large chunk of the metagame.

On one hand I kinda like this because it provides a very strong and accessable deck to the masses for a very cheap price.  On the other hand, it does so because of a single card which any deck can abuse.  Had CoW been an Enchantment, so that it would actually have some sort of color requirement attached things might be very different, but this just isn't the case, and until it sees restriction we'll all suffer for it.

Of course, this is all just my $0.02 anyway, so you can take it however you like...

[LotusHead]

I voted yes.  Crucible is simply a must counter.  A Crucible sitting across the table can't be good.

Should Crucible be restricted? Heck no!  Crucible decks will be concieved, tested and played, and not neccessarily just get dumped into existing Fish/4CC/Workshop decks.

Crucible of Worlds is exciting and energizing the format. It gives budget deckbuilders a rock to stand on.

If having Strips Galore bug you, do what others do: Graveyard Hate.

(Edit: I face Crucibles all the time in my Meta, and those Crucibles are in some GOOD decks.  When I aquired my own Crucibles and put them into bad/Rogue decks, it was like a new deck experience. Think Mesmeric Orb and Goblin Welders

It seems that Crucible of Worlds is just awful in T2/Block, but is truly the premere T1 Card from Mirroden Block.  It is the poster boy of T1 from the Mirroden Block. End Edit)