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Author Topic: Gencon (Worlds) Top Eight Lists  (Read 5387 times)
paradigm
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« on: August 25, 2004, 11:45:49 pm »

For reference, the top eight lists from Gencon.

(From: http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/bd138)

1st Place - Mark Biller (Control Slaver)

Mana Sources (26)
4  Volcanic Island
4  Polluted Delta
4  Island
3  Underground Sea
2  Darksteel Citadel
1  Flooded Strand
1  Mox Jet
1  Mox Sapphire
1  Mox Emerald
1  Mox Ruby
1  Mox Pearl
1  Sol Ring
1  Black Lotus
1  Mana Crypt

Creatures (7)
4  Goblin Welder
1  Pentavus
1  Sundering Titan
1  Platinum Angel

Counters (8)
4  Mana Drain
4  Force of Will

Draw (11)
4  Brainstorm
4  Thirst for Knowledge
1  Ancestral Recall
1  Time Walk
1  Fact or Fiction

Disruption (4)
2  Duress
2  Mindslaver

Other (4)
1  Mystical Tutor
1  Tinker
1  Yawgmoth's Will
1  Demonic Tutor

Sideboard (15)
3  Blue Elemental Blast
3  Flametongue Kavu
3  Old Man of the Sea
2  Red Elemental Blast
2  Duress
2  Mogg Salvage

2nd Place - Dave Allen (Aggro Workshop)

Mana (23)
4  Mishra's Workshop
4  Volcanic Island
3  Shivan Reef
2  Polluted Delta
1  Tolarian Academy
1  Mox Sapphire
1  Mox Jet
1  Mox Ruby
1  Mox Emerald
1  Mox Pearl
1  Sol Ring
1  Black Lotus
1  Mana Vault
1  Mana Crypt

Creatures (14)
4  Goblin Welder
4  Juggernaut
2  Su-Chi
1  Sundering Titan
1  Gorilla Shaman
1  Triskelion
1  Duplicant

Disruption (11)
4  Wasteland
3  Trinisphere
3  Crucible of Worlds
1  Strip Mine

Draw (9)
4  Thirst for Knowledge
2  Fire/Ice
1  Wheel of Fortune
1  Memory Jar
1 Ancestral Recall

Other (3)
1  Mystical Tutor
1  Time Walk
1  Tinker

Sideboard (15)
4  Chalice of the Void
3  Red Elemental Blast
3  Rack and Ruin
3  Hydroblast
1  Trinisphere
1  Tormod's Crypt

3rd Place - Giovanni Conedera (The Man Show)

Mana (23)
4  Mishra's Factory
4  Bloodstained Mire
3  Badlands
2  Mountain
2  Swamp
1  Mana Crypt
1  Sol Ring
1  Mox Sapphire
1  Mox Jet
1  Mox Ruby
1  Mox Emerald
1  Mox Pearl
1  Black Lotus

Creatures (18)
4  Goblin Welder
4  Juggernaut
4  Su-Chi
3  Triskelion
2  Gorilla Shaman
1  Sundering Titan

Disruption (15)
4  Trinisphere
4  Wasteland
3  Blood Moon
3  Chains of Mephistopheles
1  Strip Mine

Other (4)
1  Demonic Tutor
1  Yawgmoth's Will
1  Wheel of Fortune
1  Memory Jar

Sideboard (15)
3  Chalice of the Void
3  Crucible of Worlds
3  Red Elemental Blast
3  Rack and Ruin
3  Coffin Purge

4th Place - Michael Simester (Two-Land Belcher)

Mana (38)
4  Elvish Spirit Guide
4  Tinder Wall
4  Land Grant
4  Dark Ritual
4  Chromatic Sphere
2  Cabal Ritual
1  Tropical Island
1  Bayou
1  Mox Sapphire
1  Mox Jet
1  Mox Ruby
1  Mox Emerald
1  Mox Pearl
1  Mana Crypt
1  Chrome Mox
1  Lotus Petal
1  Sol Ring
1  Mana Vault
1  Lion's Eye Diamond
1  Black Lotus
1  Mana Cylix
1  Channel

Creatures (3)
3  Goblin Welder

Kill (5)
4  Goblin Charbelcher
1  Tendrils of Agony

Search/Draw/Broken (14)
2  Living Wish
2  Brainstorm
1  Demonic Tutor
1  Tinker
1  Mystical Tutor
1  Vampiric Tutor
1  Wheel of Fortune
1  Memory Jar
1  Yawgmoth's Will
1  Necropotence
1  Ancestral Recall
1  Timetwister

Sideboard (15)
4  Xantid Swarm
3  Oxidize
1  Artifact Mutation
1  Taiga
1  Goblin Welder
1  Uktabi Orangutan
1  Gemstone Mine
1  Scavenger Folk
1  Darksteel Colossus
1  Mishra's Workshop

5th Place - Stephen Menendian (Mono U)

Mana (21)
8  Island
3  Polluted Delta
2  Flooded Strand
1  Library of Alexandria
1  Black Lotus
1  Mox Sapphire
1  Mox Jet
1  Mox Ruby
1  Mox Pearl
1  Mox Emerald
1  Sol Ring

Creatures (6)
4  Ophidian
2  Morphling

Counters (15)
4  Mana Drain
4  Force of Will
4  Mana Leak
2  Counterspell
1  Misdirection

Disruption (12)
4  Back to Basics
4  Wasteland
3  Powder Keg
1  Strip Mine

(Draw 6)
4  Impulse
1  Ancestral Recall
1  Time Walk

Sideboard (15)
4  Energy Flux
4  Propaganda
3  Blue Elemental Blast
3  Control Magic
1  Counterspell

6th Place - Kevin Cron (Stax)

Mana (24)
4  Mishra's Workshop
4  City of Brass
3  Gemstone Mine
1  Tolarian Academy
1  Black Lotus
1  Mox Sapphire
1  Mox Jet
1  Mox Ruby
1  Mox Emerald
1  Mox Pearl
1  Sol Ring
1  Mana Crypt
1  Mana Vault
1  Lotus Petal
1  Grim Monolith
1  Darksteel Ingot

Creatures (6)
4 Goblin Welder
2 Sundering Titan

Mana Denial (13)
4  Trinisphere
4  Crucible of Worlds
4  Wasteland
1  Strip Mine

Lock (8)
4  Smokestack
4  Tangle Wire

Other (9)
3  Meditate
1  Ancestral Recall
1  Tinker
1  Wheel of Fortune
1  Demonic Tutor
1  Hurkyl's Recall
1  Balance

Sideboard (15)
3  Red Elemental Blast
3  Tsabo's Web
2  Blue Elemental Blast
2  Fire/Ice
2  Tormod's Crypt
1  Hurkyl's Recall
1  Mindslaver
1  Triskelion

7th Place -  Nick Trudeau (Tools 'N Tubbies)

Mana (24)
4  Mishra's Workshop
4  Taiga
3  Wooded Foothills
3  Forest
1  Mountain
1  Strip Mine
1  Sol Ring
1  Mox Emerald
1  Mox Pearl
1  Mox Jet
1  Mox Sapphire
1  Mox Ruby
1  Mana Crypt
1  Mana Vault

Creatures (21)
4  Goblin Welder
4  Juggernaut
3  Su-Chi
2  Sundering Titan
1  Masticore
1  Triskelion
1  Duplicant
1  Anger
1  Squee, Goblin Nabob
1  Flametongue Kavu
1  Uktabi Orangutan
1  Karn, Silver Golem

Disruption (11)
4  Wasteland
4  Trinisphere
2  Crucible of Worlds
1  Blood Moon

Other (5)
4  Survival of the Fittest
1  Memory Jar

Sideboard (15)
3  Tormod's Crypt
2  Artifact Mutation
2  Naturalize
2  Blood Moon
2  Chalice of the Void
1  Viashino Heretic
1  Genesis
1  Platinum Angel
1  Duplicant

8th Place - Tom Rotchadl (G@y/r Fish)

Mana (20)
4  Volcanic Island
4  Polluted Delta
4  Mishra's Factory
3  Island
2  Mountain
2  Faerie Conclave
1  Bloodstained Mire

Creatures (12)
4  Grim Lavamancer
4  Spiketail Hatchling
4  Cloud of Faeries

Draw (8)
4  Standstill
4  Curiosity

Counters (10)
4  Force of Will
3  Stifle
3  Daze

Disruption (10)
4  Wasteland
3  Null Rod
2  Crucible of Worlds
1  Strip Mine

Sideboard (15)
4  Red Elemental Blast
3  Rack and Ruin
3  Sigil of Sleep
3  Sword of Fire and Ice
2  Fire/Ice

Analysis and better formatting to follow.

edit: Corrected errors. Mistake due to my suckness.
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« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2004, 11:59:26 pm »

Did anyone else notice that the stax list has no kill card, and is 6 cards short?
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« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2004, 12:01:41 am »

Quote from: diamond66
Did anyone else notice that the stax list has no kill card, and is 6 cards short?


Obviously, it's missing 4 Welders.  The other 2 are Titans.
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« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2004, 02:25:46 am »

These are just some basic preliminary thoughts to spur discussion and debate following worlds and entering the SCG and TMD tournaments of the fall.

Initial observations yield that the metagame was slanted towards decks that contained the Crucible/Wasteland engine. In every instance in the top eight, those two cards were in a pair (and generally appear to be so with all decks that use Wastelands), and have become synonymous in essence as most decks with Wasteland will sacrifice card slots for bombs.

In addition, Artifact Prison decks are now able to use Gemstone mine in particular, as shown through Cron's 6th place list, as the synergy with Crucible first noted from Eric Miller's TMS allows for bombs such as Balance to be fit in the maindeck along with better mana smoothing.

Current Workshop-Prison and Workshop-Aggro decks have taken a cue from Fish. Fish thrived because it was difficult to find a solution to the deck's many threats. Backed up by counters and with a number of redundant threats that can chip away enough to let topdecks finish the deal, there was no encompassing or silver bullet answer. Current 'shop decks echo this through their use of a volume of threats. The density of threats such as Trinisphere, Crucible, Big Men, Smokestack, Sundering Titan (in other cases, Chains or Moon) make it difficult to stop, as the Shop and artifact mana allow for such threats to drop turn after turn, and thus the opponent, pushed into the control role, cannot outcontrol. In addition, the over-the-top strategy which worked against Fish (larger men) does not apply here, and the answer appears to be to find ways around it (via basic lands/Citadel, or options like that which remove the number of threats that you must address).

This assault on non-basic lands has pushed typical multi-color control out of the limelight, unless they adjust (such as Tog dropping red). Even a handful of basics are not enough to mount an assault on the array of artifact decks. The two strategies most prominent were the basic land strategy (which could not only be seen in the 1st and 5th place lists - the only without Wastes/Crucible - but had an effect on other lists as well, such as the 8th place list, which uses extra basics, even suboptimal ones, to smoothen the mana base), and to use Crucibles of one's own. In a similar manner, one can try to ignore via a combo strategy such as Belcher (4th). However the vulnerability of the deck to an early Chalice for zero/one or Trinisphere is crushing to combo in general, and thus makes Belcher/Storm combo very unviable, as they cannot merely Xantid away the problem or through spells into counters.

Meanwhile, Workshop aggro has fixated itself as the premier aggro deck.  Although lacking as consistent a goldfish, it makes up for it with a larger potential explosion, along with stronger disruptive elements in Trinisphere, Crucible/Waste, Chalice post-board, and more specific builds can incorporate Blood Moon or Chains.

This use of nonbasic hate (including Titan, which was in every Workshop deck, along with Control Slaver) hated out 4cc and Tog in particular. Of those two, Tog is best equipped to metagame to it, as it can survive on three colors, which Kerz can attest to with his 21st place showing. On the other hand, 4cc has a more difficult time as one or two Islands do not carry the deck through such matchups, and the loss of red (REB, Rack and Ruin) is devastating in terms of keeping pace with the metagame. 4cc running it's own Crucibles (in multiples) MD is the other strategy, albeit one that dillutes the deck, and tricks with Goblin Welder and moxen in the grave (via Memory Jar, Shaman, etc) is a major difficulty, along with the ability of the Workshop-based decks to active Crucible/Waste faster than 4cc can. As it was noted in the forums, the coin flip is becoming more important due to this factoring in of Shop, Trinisphere/Crucible, etc.

The top eight does not indicate a pull to a specific deck, in that sense, however it does indicate the power of builds which have the following in common:

3-4 Trinisphere
3-4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Wastelands
1 Strip Mine

(These bombs can decide games on their own)

As much artifact mana as possible

4 Goblin Welder
1-3 Sundering Titan
1-3 Triskelion

(Resilience against control and the mirror)

And, to get more narrow,

4 Mishra's Workshop.

Force of Will's power is diminished somewhat due to the sheer density of threats in these decks (Welder, Crucible, Trinisphere, Fat men), especially since non-prison control is weakened by the amount of brown in the format, and Duress for the same reason (especially against Welders, and even Fish).

The reason why Mono U proved to be so strong is that

a) Mana Leak gives it a better chance to counter on one land
b) The ability to ignore Crucible of Worlds/Wastelands
c) Postsideboard Flux and Blasts for Welders (in other cases Control Magic as well for aggro)

Which breaks the norm of 4cc and Hulk.

To adjust to the power of these decks, decks will need to allow for more basic lands (two or three usually isn't even enough to suffice, especially once another threat is on the board or when facing B2B), and/or Crucible. In addition the hate needs to be directed at Welder before artifact hate is considered. For decks with green, Ground Seal becomes a more potent option as it is a more permanent answer. For other colors, Fire/Ice or Triskelion remain powerful options both for Fish and Welders at once. In addition, Energy Flux has risen in value sharply, and will be a sideboard card which non-Control Slaver control and aggro-control must now turn to.

The metagame deck for the moment is obviously Mono U, as it has one of the better strategies versus the artifact men, namely to steal with with Control Magic. Other than that, the format really is having trouble adjusting to the big men. Control Slaver's use of Platinum Angel and Pentavus is strong, but niche. Flametongue Kavu's value obviously shines more here, and also versus Phids. Due to Mono U, the threat of B2B obviously becomes more of a consideration  in addition to the Wasteland threat.

And that brings up some concluding thoughts

Archetypes weakened

-Fish: The use of large artifact men is too much for Fish to handle on it's own, much less when couple with Trinisphere and Crucible locks. Fish's pitch counters, even when combined with Standstill are simply not enough. In addition, the downfall of Tog and 4cc cause Fish to lose matchups which helped to make it so strong. Nevertheless, Flux is a bomb, and Fish, while no longer the top deck, is still a threat which can still close matchups to nearly 50/50 despite the hate due to its redundancy and inherent strength as a whole.

-Storm/Belcher combo: Too much potential for autoloss from prison decks, as well as hate from the revamped Mono U. This applies to combo in general, as the chance of Workshop (at times, even regardless of the coin flip) can be game and can cause simple match losses which combo isn't prepared to take.

-4cc: Mana base needs to be reconsidered. Not only to deal with Wastes, but Back to Basics as well, as Mono U will be popular at least for now, especially among five-proxy environments. Although it takes skill to master, it's not incredibly hard to get bombs and cast them (i.e. B2B) with Force backup.

Note also that the strength of these brown-based decks and variants will not be as strong in the US due particularly to the lack of Workshops to go around and the inability to function in five-proxy (even nine-proxy) environments. However Mono U will spread much like Fish due to the lack of duals, and the ability to survive five-proxy by simply adding in four moxes and lotus.

Congrats to all who played, and additional praise to all who made the top eight, and to Windfall,  of course,  for taking it all.
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« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2004, 02:32:19 am »

Any chance of the listings for top 16? It seems the most interesting action was with the decks that just barely missed t8.
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« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2004, 07:08:51 am »

I have several questions relating specifically to the Belcher list, but I figure he'll write his own tournament report, and I can ask them there.

Fortunately, MonoU is probably expensive enough that a lot of random people won't be able to just pick it up.  That means I can play my Belcher deck in less than 10 proxy tournaments.  Unfortunately, I think combo in general will be very difficult to finish well with, considering Trinispheres, counters, and Chalices in the metagame right now.  Although many of these decks appear slower, they don't lose a lot of time.  They instead slow the opponent down to match them, which means decks already as slow or slower than the opponent will be, for all intents and purposes, immune.  For example, the Hyper MUD deck in the open forums doesn't care about Trinispheres.  It's slow enough that an opponent's Trinisphere won't slow it down more, but will just give it more time.
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« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2004, 07:34:01 am »

Only 12 creatures in the Gay/R deck?  I thought that conventional wisdom deemed that number insufficient for a deck that relies heavily on Curiosity.  I am not suprised to see the basic Mountain and red-fetch, however, as I have been advocating that for months (I even thought it was important before Crucible).
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« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2004, 08:21:43 am »

FYI: My list is posted as 59 cards.  The missing card in my above list is the Ancestral Recall.
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« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2004, 08:53:20 am »

Quote from: Rybo
Any chance of the listings for top 16? It seems the most interesting action was with the decks that just barely missed t8.


From memory it was 3 dragon decks, another workshop aggro (me), and a deathlong.   can anyone fill in the last spots?
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« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2004, 09:22:24 am »

I'd like to point out that the Fish is UNPOWERED.

UNPOWERED.

This is not insignificant.
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« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2004, 09:44:32 am »

the 9-16 spots looked something like this from what i can recall

3 dragons barely missed 9th/10th/13th (Triple_S/Dicemax/1 more?)
1 4cc finishing 12th John Longo(highest 4cc result)
1 Storm Combo played by matrex who drew last round
1 Deathlong (not sure who...)
1 Agro Workshop (team meandeck?)
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« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2004, 09:46:20 am »

Isn't it funny how mono-blue _always_ comes back?

>Very Happy
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« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2004, 09:55:53 am »

Quote from: Hi-Val
I'd like to point out that the Fish is UNPOWERED.

UNPOWERED.

This is not insignificant.


Is that for real? I never even noticed. That's awesome. Very Happy

aka: The other decks have errors, so I am wondering if this one is error-free.
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« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2004, 09:56:00 am »

The other top 16 was me with budget FCG.
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« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2004, 09:58:30 am »

Quote from: Hoeg
The other top 16 was me with budget FCG.


OH! Thats the deck i forgot about that rounds out the top 16.

Windfall, that is 1 of the oddest sideboards I have ever seen, but it works so you cant argue with the results.
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« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2004, 10:27:08 am »

4CC wasn't hated out in the way you're thinking.  Most of its best players either weren't there or made a metagame call to not play it in the face of a field that was expected to consist very largely of Fish, which is a tenuous matchup.
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« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2004, 11:37:00 am »

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=7968
The SCG lists seem somewhat more error-free.
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« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2004, 11:45:35 am »

Quote from: Whatever Works
the 9-16 spots looked something like this from what i can recall

3 dragons barely missed 9th/10th/13th (Triple_S/Dicemax/1 more?)
1 4cc finishing 12th John Longo(highest 4cc result)
1 Storm Combo played by matrex who drew last round
1 Deathlong (not sure who...)
1 Agro Workshop (team meandeck?)


9th place was me (with Dragon) and as pointed out earlier FCG rounded out the top 16....i thought Matt Smith was in the top 16, but maybe that was top 32.

the Storm combo was a 5-color TPS deck (at least it used cities and gemstones to splash Wheel of Fortune, not sure if it actually used anything green or white).

I'd agree with klep, a lot of the people who did well with 4cc earlier in the week chose to play a different deck in the main event.

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« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2004, 12:14:08 pm »

Booby Prize:  William Dicks (Dante)
10th:  John A Donovan
11th:  Joshua S Reynolds (Sliverking)
12th:  John Longo
13th:  Jonathan S Rink
14th:  Sam Donnewolf
15th:  Dan Rix (Matrix)
16th:  Bryan Fisher

Matt C Smith ended up in 59th.  You're way off.
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« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2004, 12:42:08 pm »

I went 1-2 drop so I certainly wasn't around the top 16....
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« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2004, 12:52:53 pm »

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« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2004, 02:12:52 pm »

I have the rest of the pages, so if you guys want specific placings, drop me a PM.
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« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2004, 11:39:04 pm »

16th place was my teammate Brian Fisher playing 7/10 Spilt.  He was one of those guys that ran out of time, letting the eventual champion into the top 8.
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« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2004, 11:49:27 pm »

10th place was my friend John Donovan. He finished 6-2 playing a pretty standard build of Fish

--Manuel--
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Team GWS
Who else can say they made the former T1 World Champ say, "Baby Jesus cried a river of pudding after that match. It wasn't pretty."
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