Who's the best creature in the game?

[Eastman]

Well, you see the question! We haven't gone on about this in awhile so-- lets discuss  

I feel like I have to answer Goblin Welder after seeing the top 8 at Gencon. It was so full of Welders!

I don't think there's any other creature that can do so much for so little.

[Zherbus]

I have to vote for Welder, without him we'd all be playing a totally different game.

[The Atog Lord]

Welder allows you to avoid mana cost. He's completely unfair. Now, Rector does too, but she requires 3W whereas Welder requires just R. Moreover, Welder can even be used to disrupt the opponent.

To draw an analogy:
Welder is to Tinker as Regrowth is to Demonic Tutor. Except Welder costs less and can be used every turn.

But, if Atog were on the list, of course he would have gotten my vote

[rvs]

Goblin Welder.

It's not even close.

Why is the Dragon in this list? It's not like he's any good, he's just part of a ruling-fuckup, which the stubborn people at wizards/dci do not wish to change.

[Smmenen]

I have to agree with Welder, in terms of this metagame.

Objectively speaking, I think Psychatog is the best creature ever.

[Jacob Orlove]

Everything other than Welder on that list is good, but has a casting cost that's close to reasonable. Welder isn't just good--he's savagely undercosted.

Of course, Welder would be much worse if Thirst for Knowledge, Survival of the Fittest, Mishra's Workshop, and Intuition hadn't been printed. Or if they hadn't printed Jar, Titan, Pentavus, Mindslaver, Goblin Charbelcher, or Platinum Angel. It's telling that Welder saw no play in T2 after Jar got banned.

[Klep]

I'm going to have to say that Goblin Welder is currently the best creature in the format, but like Steve I thenk that Psychatog is better in a vacuum.

[Kerz]

Or if they hadn't printed Jar, Titan, Pentavus, Mindslaver, Goblin Charbelcher, or Platinum Angel. It's telling that Welder saw no play in T2 after Jar got banned.

I find it ironic that all the cards you listed sans Jar were printed in the last year. These are the obvious cues for Welder's great leap in power.

I voted Welder also.

Welder isn't just good--he's savagely undercosted.

What would be a fair cost? 2R?

[Jacob Orlove]

Welder isn't just good--he's savagely undercosted.

What would be a fair cost? 2R?

That's actually an interesting question. If we want a truly fair cost, we'd probably have to go to 3R or 2RR, a la Archivist. That's "fair", but also pretty much unplayable. 1R is clearly still too low, so I think either RR or 2R; RR is objectively more powerful, but 2R would probably make for a better card.

Most Type One cards would become immediately unplayable if you add 1 to their mana cost, so it's a clear sign that welder is undercosted if everyone would still play him at 1R.

[jpmeyer]

I didn't vote for Welder because when I see lists like this, I tend to single out the creatures where creature status tends not to "matter" or is a detriment to the card.  If Welder were say, an enchantment or artifact it would be even better than it is now (for instance, you could return one to play with another one, dodge summoning sickness, etc.)  Compare that to something like, Exalted Angel or Wild Mongrel which would be horrible if they weren't creatures.

That said, Welder probably has the most powerful effect of any creature in Type 1.

[Dante]

Goblin Welder.

It's not even close.

Why is the Dragon in this list? It's not like he's any good, he's just part of a ruling-fuckup, which the stubborn people at wizards/dci do not wish to change.

I agree, but who actually voted for the Dragon?  I'd like to understand that.

[rvs]

Maybe a good replacement would be Xantid Swarm. While he may seem a little weak and easy to deal with, he HAS to be dealt with. I think he deserves a spot among these 'best of the best'.

[Machinus]

I think people need to be clear on what we are voting for here before they choose. This isn't a choice between best win condition or most powerful creature; it is more a poll about what is the best card on that list - the list just happens to be all creatures.

And yeah, welder + mirrodin block = new format.

[DavidHernandez]

Goblin Welder is the best right now, though I agree with Steve about Psychatog.

I think it's interesting that no one voted for Exalted Angel. This is the right on the money in my opinion. Angel should receive no votes because she is a supporting character in a deck while Welder is central to an archetype.

Dave.

[Ric_Flair]

Over time (era) and formats Psychatog is clearly the best creature of all time.  Welder is very good right now, though.  Here is my top 5, including all formats and eras:

1) Psychatog
2) Goblin Welder
3) Arcbound Ravager
4) Wild Mongrel
5) Exalted Angel

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I'm going to have to say that Goblin Welder is currently the best creature in the format, but like Steve I thenk that Psychatog is better in a vacuum.

I don't really think it's possible to judge any card "in a vacuum."  Every card has to be taken in context with everything else to properly judge it.  Like most of the people, I have to say welder, hands down.  Tog is really good, but welder is just insane.

[MaxxMatt]

I voted for Atog for his inherent power.

Even if nowadys it is hated out, I fear a lot more a well played Atog.dec's build rather then a well played Welder-based deck. The game against the latter one can be won by a good use of specific hate cards, while the first one can circumvent all the hate against him with a proper play and win by itself.

Another thing that can be underlined is that whatever deck you play ( with the right colors ) you can ALWAYS try to win with an Atog in play. The only requirements are Cards in hand and CArds in the grave. Try to do the same swap inserting a full set of Welders in the same decks. They aren't stellar. They cannot be considered "winners" as well.

The Welder's abilty, even if too good in the right contest, is FAR LESS applyable than the Atog's one. IMHO, this lack of universality pose him in a lower step.

[Ric_Flair]

Are we conflating two coincidentally related things here:  the power of Welder and the power of Moxen?  In formats without Moxen Welder is clearly not the brute that it is in Vintage.  Tog is always a brute, every format, every era of that format.  He may be on the decline now, but something tells me that Togs resurgence is only a matter of time.

[Methuselahn]

I had to vote Goblin Welder simply because Auriok Salvagers was no where to be seen.

I think it is a given that the poll is in the context of Vintage alone AND considering the entire card pool, not just based on their own merit.

[Dr. Sylvan]

Well, the question is open-ended as to format, so I'm betting Tony was thinking of past creature debates where the top echelon was determined by performance over time.

I voted Welder. I like to think of him as a narrow, summoning-sickness YawgWill. He essentially generates invisible mana, and turns dead cards or less useful ones into the best thing you've pitched this game. When I saw CHA1N5 board in Tormod's Crypt over REB in the quarters at GenCon, the Welder power level really struck me. Psychatog is constrained in this respect by the amount of work needed to bring it online. It virtually requires a Cunning Wish to win in most situations. Welder will be amazing even within the initial turns of the game and without need for a specific combination, though Thirst for Knowledge is of course a boon.

[Gabethebabe]

Psychatog

No creature has ever dominated all the formats like he did.

[Matt]

How the hell did shaman get THREE votes?

Artifact lands give even moxless formats (like 1.5!) access to the broken uses of Welder.

[MuzzonoAmi]

I'd ask the same thing about Morphling, because I can't see why Angel has fewer votes when it's strictly superior.

Anyway, I voted for Welder because of the madness that other people have already explained well. I think that those of you who are touting Psychatog's strength "in a vacuum" are forgetting about the tremendous cost of bringing a lethal Tog around, or even one that can deal with a Juggernaut and not die. The resource demands of the Tog are tremendous, especially for a control deck trying to stave off an attack. While later Hulk builds often poised themselves for a quick, combo-style kill, if one was forced to play the role of a control deck, pitching cards to block Juggernauts, Titans, etc. is highly anthecial to your control oriented gameplan. In decks like Madness, where the Tog's closest relative would be Mongrel, the cost of pumping the creature is often used as a card (or more approiately, resource point) advantage engine - yeilding creatures that have high RP values (Arrogant Wurm, Basking Rootwalla, Roar tokens) or generating other RP advantages (Deep Analysis).

If you look at this from the perspective of Resource Point theory (which I feel is one of the better ways to compare creatures to one another) then Welder is unquestoinably the best because he trades cards with low RP vaules (oftentime only 4) for cards with large RP vaules (Titan, Mindslaver, Triskelion) or cards that create tremendous RP swing (Memory Jar)  and oftentimes exacerbates that swing by recurring key artifacts.

Here, Angel is likely the second best because of the massive RP swings she creates and her ability to deal with opposing creatures.

[Nameless]

I have to agree with Welder, in terms of this metagame.

Objectively speaking, I think Psychatog is the best creature ever.

Ditto.

Welder is great, no question, but he's mainly been lurking around Vintage, with a brief cameo in the last 1.X season.

On the other hand...

Psychatog has had a dominant run on every single format in the game of Magic, and that includes Limited for craps sake.  So for best creature the 'Tog has the title, for best Vintage creature though Welder takes the cake, for the time being at least.

[Magi]

I'm surprised Squee didn't get any consideration...


Welder at this point in time, for Type 1 anyways. Lots of people got it right though. If you were to look at all the formats ever, Psychatog would rule hands down.

[PsychoCid]

'scuse me, but...

Beyond Welder...
Beyond the why-is-dragon-on-the-list question...

Serra Angel takes the bloody cake.

Only the original art, though.  ALL of the other pictures are bleh.

[Eastman]

So apparently Welder has almost as large a lead over the competition as G.W. does over Kerry. I guess both races are decided.

[jpmeyer]

So apparently Welder has almost as large a lead over the competition as G.W. does over Kerry. I guess both races are decided.

So it's a dead heat?  

OH NO TEH POLITICS LOCK THE THREAD!

But yeah, it's ain't nobody catching Welder now

[rvs]

So apparently Welder has almost as large a lead over the competition as G.W. does over Kerry. I guess both races are decided.

So it's a dead heat?  

OH NO TEH POLITICS LOCK THE THREAD!

But yeah, it's ain't nobody catching Welder now

thou art the treu americen.

[Matt]

George Welder Bush.