Mind Twist's Role in 4CC

[LoA]

I was reviewing the old Balance or No? thread the other day and it got me thinking about the role of Mind Twist in 4CC.  Some people have already dropped it and I'm on the fence of doing so myself.  Yes, it's great in some matchups, but with so many Welder decks out there and other archetypes that either don't care or can recover quickly, it hasn't been the bomb I want it to be lately.  Just for the sake of discussion, here's a decklist:

4x Mana Drain
4x Force of Will

1x Ancestral Recall
3x Skeletal Scrying
1x Time Walk
4x Brainstorm
1x Fact or Fiction

1x Mystical Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
3x Cunning Wish

1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Balance
1x Mind Twist

3x Exalted Angel
1x Gorilla Shaman

2x Swords to Plowshares
1x Fire/Ice

Some cards I'm considering in place of the Mind Twst are a fourth Skeletal Scrying, Engineered Explosives, or a second Gorilla Shaman.  Right now I'm new to the area, but it looks like a generally low powered meta (outside of Hyperion and maybe a few others), but I might trek out to Columbus from time to time.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

The 2nd shamen could be the bomb you are looking for against welder decks, and I know that Zherbus runs 4 srying in his build.  

I always get really angry when my hand is cluttered up with scryings I can't cast so I would be an advocate of the shamen, espescially when going into an unfamiliar meta or something with more welder decks.  

I've never tested the explosives so I can't be sure about them, but although I have heard a few good things they still seem clunky to me as they require alot of mana to use (usually at least 4 total) and are shut down by rod, as well as not seeming likely to kill many things except against fish, which runs the aforementioned rod.

That said, I myself would probably not cut twist except as an extreame meta consideration; it's usually the bomb i want it to be .

[Stupid_Newb]

I find that Mind Twist is definately is worthy of a spot in the deck.

Not only is the the most broken mana outlet for your Drains, but in the late game, or with a Black Lotus, it can give your opponent nightmares. Even a Twist for three on your third turn can do quite a bit.

The only problem I find is in the matchups of Madness, Dragon, and sometimes Welder-based decks. You could accidentally dump the wrong card into an opponent's graveyard, or make them discard a Rootwalla, Squee, or Arrogant Wurm.

[Zherbus]

Carl and I cut it simply because the decks that Mind Twist are a huge win against are no longer that prevelant. When Tog was bigger, it was a huge swing card in that matchup. Control Slaver is looking to take Togs place as the really only other big control deck in the format, and I'd rather have removal, a different bomb, or a draw spell against Control Slaver.

[Sagath]

Control Slaver is looking to take Togs place as the really only other big control deck in the format, and I'd rather have removal, a different bomb, or a draw spell against Control Slaver.

Allthought Mono-U may be on the upswing now after Gencon, but I would guess that the matchup of 4cc vs U is probably highly in the Mono-U players hands anyways. Therefor I dont find the idea of one good matchup card warrents the spot when its a bad card against the rest of the field

[LoA]

Carl and I cut it simply because the decks that Mind Twist are a huge win against are no longer that prevelant. When Tog was bigger, it was a huge swing card in that matchup. Control Slaver is looking to take Togs place as the really only other big control deck in the format, and I'd rather have removal, a different bomb, or a draw spell against Control Slaver.

My reasoning was generally the same.  Right now it's a Shaman and the Mind Twist is in the 'board, where it probably doesn't need to be, but I'm still getting used to the deck playing sans Mind Twist.

The only problem I find is in the matchups of Madness, Dragon, and sometimes Welder-based decks. You could accidentally dump the wrong card into an opponent's graveyard, or make them discard a Rootwalla, Squee, or Arrogant Wurm.

That said, I myself would probably not cut twist except as an extreame meta consideration; it's usually the bomb i want it to be .

My impression of how the meta is shaping up puts an emphasis on board control.  This doesn't make Mind Twist a bad card by any stretch, but I do get the sense that there might be "do more" cards out there.  If Mind Twist is "excellent" vs. some decks and "poor" to "average" against others, I would rather have a card that is "very good" against the field.  Mind Twist is at its best vs. Tog, the control mirror, and combo.  

Tog isn't really around anymore but 4CC can make due with ReBs, although I'm still not thrilled about this matchup.  I hate to direct people to closed threads, but the one concerning Balance contains some bits of wisdom for this matchup.  

Versus Fish and MonoU, you need to take into account Misdirection and adjust to the fact that your casting a beefy sorcery vs. a control deck.  

It's better vs. 4CC, but you have a lot of other tools in this matchup; an additional Shaman makes your mana denial strategy that much more effective; an additional Skeletal Scrying gives you one more ReB-proof drawer.  

The same could be said of the combo matchup.  Beating combo means killing the engine, what I'm proposing is exchanging Mind Twist for a card that directly attacks the engine or draws a card that attacks the engine.  Sometimes you Mind Twist them and that's game.  Other times you mind twist them, they draw Animate Dead and win/draw.  I'd rather ensure the Animate spell is never cast in the first place.

[rvs]

Mind twist is very cutworthy. It's only good against the mirror, and I suppose Mono-U and parfait, if they ever make a come-back. You can always leave it in your board for game 2 and 3.

[Whatever Works]

I still run mind twist in my 4cc build simply because it can be a game ender. Zherbus is right to say that it is not as affective as it used to be, and is a card that possibly could be cut, but the fact that it can just end a game on the spot following a mana drain etc. makes running it worth it in my mind. You can also sideboard it out against decks that its poor against if need be, but the I WIN factor after a mind twist for 5 with drain backup vs. B2B Hulk/Mirror/non-tier1 deck makes it worth running.

[Milton]

I cut it three months ago and I havn't missed it.  The second Shaman is so good right now (I even run a third in the board).  By the way, most of my 4cc v. 4cc match-ups have been won by the person that casts Crucible first.  I don't think 4cc can get away with only one Crucible anymore either.

Also, is anyone else dissapointed in Cunning Wish lately?  My board looks like this:

1 Shaman
1 Crucible
1 Blue Blast
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Diabolic Edict or Swords or Terror
1 Disenchant
3 Rack and Ruin
3 Red Blasts
3 Fire/Ice

I've had to cram my board with anti-Artifact Aggro and anti-Fish cards, which narrows my options for an effective board.  Also, I'm finding myself sideboarding out Cunning Wish against many decks.  Maybe it's time to drop to two Cunning Wish?

[JuJu]

LoA, For reference. What does your sideboard look like. Perhaps, in the matchups where Mind Twist isn't fulfilling it's role. A card in your sb would do better. But, what does you sideboard look like. Also, I've found your inclusion of Crucibles maindeck new, so I must ask, how has it been? On another note. I don't think a 4th Scrying would be good maindeck. However I do run 1 in my sideboard as a juicy wish target. Also, with the rise of Control decks like Control Slaver and Mono-U(Which we all know will see more play now), has Decree been missed? I'm feeling like it's one of those cards that you can just win with after a huge mana drain or two. I'm not entirely sure on this however, have you re-tested Decree at all? Also, Engineered Explosives might be a great idea vs both Welders and FCG(If it rises again).

-JuJu

[LoA]

LoA, For reference. What does your sideboard look like.

It's pretty standard:

3x Red Elemental Blast
2x Rack and Ruin
1x Gorilla Shaman/Mind Twist (the other is maindeck for now)
1x Flametongue Kavu
1x Gush
1x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Coffin Purge
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Disenchant
1x Fire/Ice

I'm looking to fit a final Skeletal Scrying in the board, I'm bouncing a few ideas around as to what to cut.

Also, is anyone else dissapointed in Cunning Wish lately?

I'm loving it so far.  It seems like Cunning Wish->VT->Black Lotus to morph an Angel seems to happen every fourth game or so.

Also, with the rise of Control decks like Control Slaver and Mono-U(Which we all know will see more play now), has Decree been missed?

Not really, that was a recent change as well.  I had been playing 2/1 Angel/Decree but found the Decree would sit in my hand fairly often.  It's tough to lose two great mana sinks like Mind Twist and Decree, but I think both changes are for the better.  Casting a single angel token is the same as an Exalted, and Exalted is clearly better.  Moreover, you need to cast 2 tokens to get the same life swing you get with a single Exalted.  I would argue that Decree is worse vs. Slaver since they can cycle for 0 whereas it's tougher for them to get rid of an Exalted (but still very possible).  MonoU runs Kegs, which are a quick answer to tokens and morphed angels but a really slow one vs. a hard-cast/unmorphed angel.

Also, I've found your inclusion of Crucibles maindeck new, so I must ask, how has it been?

Good but not amazing, which is what I expected it to be.  The problem is that 4CC has a real problem with an opponent's Crucible and it's easier in my mind to run 1+1 to deal with them instead of investing Cunning Wishes to the job.  As an added bonus, you get amazingly broken hands sometimes.  Last night I played Mox/Strip Mine/Sol Ring/Crucible vs. U/G Madness turn one.  Obviously it's solid vs. Fish as well but I see that as secondary to the Crucible mirror.

EDIT: Answering more of JuJu's questions.

[Whatever Works]

I disagree with cutting down the # of rack and ruins down to 2... I have found 3 to be a good number, and if you drop down from 3 it makes perfect sense why your so desperate to get the shamans on the table. Anything more then 2 shamans are overboard in my opinion, and fact or fiction in the sideboard is not a very good choice with 4cc. I mean realistically... your probably never going to wish for it in most games, because grabbing scrying is just usually a better play late game... and 7 mana overall to cast just is way to slow when you can mana drain into the card, or cast it at EoT consistently. I can understand why mono blue doesnt run it, but this deck gets alot of mana on the board fast, and can support it maindeck.

My last 4cc sideboard worked incredibly well and looked like this:
(Considering I have 2 mandeck Crucible and 1 Maindeck Shaman)
3 REB
3 Rack and ruin (rather draw 1 of these then a 2nd shaman)
2 FTK (Good against so many decks)
1 Fire/Ice (1 Maindeck great answer to fish, and better answer to welder decks then shaman often)
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 BEB (amazing and underplayed)
1 STP
2 Disenchant (needed with B2B/Bloodmoon more common)

If the quality of 4cc goes down any its probably because the deck is worrieing to much about other decks, and shoving in soooo many hate cards that it cant run affectively. People who are taking out the bombs in the deck are just turning the deck into a bad version of Hulk, and losing silver bullets in the process.

[JuJu]

For Reference. What does your manabase look like? Also, I think you should be running 2 Fire/Ice and 1 Swords. Especially with the Fire/Ice dealing with Welders, Fishies and other type of annoying pests. And plus, all the big creatures you're facing have better type of removal. Also, I've found it 100% Necessary to run 2 Gorilla Shamans, it stunts so many game plans and especially helpful with Welder tricks etc. I think what you should do for testing. Is something Toad does alot. You play your entire deck, with the card that you're not sure abot(in this case Mind Twist) as a mystery Card, if you would rather that card be a Crucible of Worlds, an Engineered Explosives or whatever, so be it. You then record your games and figure out which card was more potent. The second and third could no doubt be sideboard cards.
I haven't done this however(no chance for testing, and most probably not much time to come with school testing etc.
Also, has Vampiric Tutor really been that good for you? I've been hating it more and more every time I play with it. And also, 2 RnR work perfectly fine if you run 2 Shamans. And yes FTK is amazing, it turns Keeper into the Aggro player vs Fish . Has anyone been trying Damping Matrix lately? It might be a solid choice now that mindslavers are back and all -.-

[AggressiveDude]

Carl and I cut it simply because the decks that Mind Twist are a huge win against are no longer that prevelant. When Tog was bigger, it was a huge swing card in that matchup. Control Slaver is looking to take Togs place as the really only other big control deck in the format, and I'd rather have removal, a different bomb, or a draw spell against Control Slaver.

But Mind Twist is also good against 4CC mirror right?
And 4CC seems to be popular at the moment.

[LoA]

Again, my manabase is pretty standard.  I took the summer off Magic to do fun things (like get married and go on a honeymoon) and boring things (like get everybody's insurance on the same policy and plan a reception), so my plan is/was to play 4CC out of the box before I start to tweak it all that much.

4x Polluted Delta
3x Tundra
3x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
2x City of Brass
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
1x Library of Alexandria
6x SoLoMoxen

My kingdom for a basic island.

I really like the 2 Swords to Plowshares.  With the number of Titans and Colossuses out there, not to mention Dragon and Madness, it seems a safer bet.  Having the second in the board is handy vs. Welder decks and Fish but in those matches StP is decent, albeit not as good whereas a Fire/Ice is terrible vs. bigger threats.

[CrazyCarl]

Mind Twist is amazing against 4CC.  However it seems like Crucible is now the defining card in the matchup, whereas before it was Mind Twist.  Both are slow but Crucible is better against the metagame as a whole.  Mind Twist is incredibly weak against Fish, various aggro and Workshop builds and Slaver decks.

If 4cc is popular where you play and you can find a slot in the board, I'd definatly have Twist in there to board in.  In a 4cc mirror you usually are sitting on a pile of REBs and holding Angels until you find an opening and Twist can just devastate the opponent.  Plus there's always the chance to hit Yawgmoth's Will which is awesome.

[Milton]

First of all, sideboard options are metagame and local environment specific.  I could easily see an individual running one Rack and Ruin in 4cc as opposed to three.  I could easily see an individual running Coffin Purge or Stifle in the board.  I don't need to in my meta.

Second, the inclusion of creature removal spells is also metagame specific.  I run three Plows and no Fire/Ice maindeck.  TnT is making a comeback here, as it is a terriffic way to smash Fish in the face.  So, a first turn Juggernaut or Su Chi isn't uncommon.  Also, with Phid potentially comming back, Swords is more attractive then ever.  Again, though, I could easily see someone running three Fire/Ice and no Plows.  This is a decision you have to make based on your local environment.

As for a mana base, I found 26 to be too little.  I also included a basic Island in going up to 27 mana.  To be clear, though, in many environments this would not be necessary.

[CrazyCarl]

First of all, sideboard options are metagame and local environment specific.  I could easily see an individual running one Rack and Ruin in 4cc as opposed to three.  I could easily see an individual running Coffin Purge or Stifle in the board.  I don't need to in my meta.

Second, the inclusion of creature removal spells is also metagame specific.  I run three Plows and no Fire/Ice maindeck.  TnT is making a comeback here, as it is a terriffic way to smash Fish in the face.  So, a first turn Juggernaut or Su Chi isn't uncommon.  Also, with Phid potentially comming back, Swords is more attractive then ever.  Again, though, I could easily see someone running three Fire/Ice and no Plows.  This is a decision you have to make based on your local environment.

As for a mana base, I found 26 to be too little.  I also included a basic Island in going up to 27 mana.  To be clear, though, in many environments this would not be necessary.

I was playing against 4cc this weekend and was playing Draw7 and tinkered out Jar and used it cracking LED in response with the 4cc player having one card in hand.  It was Cunning Wish and he fetched Stifle and wrecked me because I had like, double Ritualed before that lol.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

For Reference. What does your manabase look like? Also, I think you should be running 2 Fire/Ice and 1 Swords. Especially with the Fire/Ice dealing with Welders, Fishies and other type of annoying pests. And plus, all the big creatures you're facing have better type of removal. Also, I've found it 100% Necessary to run 2 Gorilla Shamans, it stunts so many game plans and especially helpful with Welder tricks etc. I think what you should do for testing. Is something Toad does alot. You play your entire deck, with the card that you're not sure abot(in this case Mind Twist) as a mystery Card, if you would rather that card be a Crucible of Worlds, an Engineered Explosives or whatever, so be it. You then record your games and figure out which card was more potent. The second and third could no doubt be sideboard cards.
I haven't done this however(no chance for testing, and most probably not much time to come with school testing etc.
Also, has Vampiric Tutor really been that good for you? I've been hating it more and more every time I play with it. And also, 2 RnR work perfectly fine if you run 2 Shamans. And yes FTK is amazing, it turns Keeper into the Aggro player vs Fish . Has anyone been trying Damping Matrix lately? It might be a solid choice now that mindslavers are back and all -.-

I'm actually running 3 stp and 1 fire/ice in my build.. there are just so many things that need to die.

I dropped down to 2 cunning wish a while ago; I found that with 3 I saw them too often and it is quite mana intensive to wish for a card then use it.

I'm at one shamen right now although I could easily see myself adding the 2nd.

On FTK, I don't board them vs fish because they are so mana intensive and do nothing against fliers for blocking purposes.  They die in combat to fatories or conclaves and can get pinged by mancers.  I usually just board a fire/ice and a REB or something like that.

Matrix can be a house, and a friend of mine actually boarded 2 null rods in his 4cc build and found it to be awsome against slaver and combo because while it might stunt you a little it completely wrecks them.

I am running the standard 26 sources arrangement with no basic island.  I usuallywould just rather fetch a dual to get another colour or double up on black or white, even if they are running wastes.  I havn't seen that many blood moons running around now, either.  (although there is b2b)

As for sbed vamp, I like being able to wish for it to fetch balance, will, angel, etc.

I'm not really comfortable playing 4cc right now because I ph34r mono-U.  B2B says: 2U, ench, when this comes into play you WIN THE GAME.  Plus the fact that they can usually out-counter you even post-sb.  The matchup is just a nightmare.

Someone said something about explosive vs FCG, but it is horrible because of their diverse curve.  I already gae my opinion of explosives and I stand by that.

[Dozer]

Mind Twist is amazing against 4CC.  However it seems like Crucible is now the defining card in the matchup, whereas before it was Mind Twist.  Both are slow but Crucible is better against the metagame as a whole.  Mind Twist is incredibly weak against Fish, various aggro and Workshop builds and Slaver decks.

I have also cut Mind Twist, but I did it due to space concerns. I'd have loved to keep it in, because it lets you seal the game more immediate than Crucible does. But when you have to fit in two Crucibles along with two Cunning Wishes and enough removal as well as another saucy surprise, Mind Twist is the only card that I actually could consider for cutting. Also, it was the card I sided out more than any other single card, so there.
I'd never play without Wishes because of the crazy interaction between it, Will and Scrying and (of course) the accessability of sideboard cards, so Mind Twist is the only thing left to cut. Balance is too good to cut, and since Twist is thrice that narrow, that choice is easy.

Dozer

[MaxxMatt]

If the metagame continued to be dominated by "slow" decks, I think that could be possible to use Balance + Wishes + F/I as only "removals" of a 4c-c.dec.

It frees some space to add bombs that would improve the matchup against them. A good combination of CoWs AND Mindtwist AND Skeletals is the key to win almost every  games against those decks with a long term winning plan BUT with strong defences as you.

I would like to see HOW the current 4c-c-' smana base changed with the consequent use of so many CoWs.

I think that 1 or 2 Basic Islands and possibly the fifth fetchland can be added to the usual 4c-c's mana base to survive to a quick opponent's CoW.


I think that while CoW is a "brainless" card, that fit well ONLY in this specific metagame ( a metagames where we leave at home our good old basic lands ), the choice to keep Mindtwist in my maindeck should be considered a better one when the metagame would shift a bit responding to the flood of CoWs in every decks. When CoWs would lose their universal impact to the game because of more resilient mana bases, I think that Mindtwist would regain his maindeck slot.

On the other hand a card like CoW transmute the control matchup in a "run" on resolving it, without thinking too much at what the opponent could do before its resolution. It became a lot less funny to play and a lot less skill intensive.

Mindtwist on the other hand is a cards that require skills and pratice to be used to a full potential ( as Balance as well ). But the simpler is the card ( COW ) the simpler is the choice to do. I think that we are preferring CoW over Mindtwist exactly because of his inherent "semplicity".

It slowly won every game if unresolved fast.
And until now there are a few deck that are well equipped to stop it or stop the decks that are abusing it.

[MuzzonoAmi]

Given the weakness of the general Pittsburgh metagame, you're probably fine with just running Mind Twist and 1-0 CoW unless you're gong to a proxy event or something out of town. There's almost no nonbasic lands, only 2 or 3 people have Power, and most good players only come out for proxy events. So if you want to play in small, local tournies, then the Twist would be better than Crucible. But for a more powerful metagame or a proxy tournament, I can't make a recommendation one way or another because I'm not a 4cC player.

[Xman]

Mind Twist is interesting, as it is useful in so manysituations mid to late game, and is great after a big drain (say a FoW).  Thats why I keep it in my deck that I am playing at local tournies down here.

CoW is unbelievably awesome, but again, works best against people who run duals and other non-basic lands, so meta's like Cinicnnait, Pitts, & Possibly Phx, it probably isn't that great (unless you get the recurring Stripmine).

however, in 4cc, Depending on the local MEta, as much as I love my Twist, I would probably put it in the board (can't get myself to remove it completelyt) as it is killer in stuff like Mono-U, Hulk/GAT/Tog, 4cc Mirror.  Thats just how it works.  I also would (in a good meta) run 2 CoW as they are devastating in a good meta.

Anyway, with that said, Anyone think that perhaps a 3c Cruicible Tog is viable?

[Mixing Mike]

Anyway, with that said, Anyone think that perhaps a 3c Cruicible Tog is viable?

I thought we were talking about Keeper here...

Anyways, the format is slow right now, and Keeper is on the rise yet again.  I say keep Mind Twist for these simple reasons.  

However, the fact that quite a few of the aggro decks are running Welders (as well as some control decks) isn't really a great reason to run mind Twist.  Far to many times have my opponents put my Pentavus or what-have-you into my graveyard,  then preceeding to lose.  Mind Twist has turned from a 'win now' card to a 'lose sometimes, win sometimes' card.  What I'm saying is that Mind Twist isn't good for the metagame right now, despite all the mirrors and a slower metagame.

That's my .02....