[Singlecard-discussion] Forbidden Orchard

[Sapphire]

For those of you that haven't noticed this card:

Forbidden Orchard -
Land
T: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.
Target opponent puts a 1/1 colorless Spirit creature token into play.
Rare

Now - what do we have here? - A gemstone mine that doesn't deplete.  In Type 1, giving the opponent a 1/1 colorless dude is NOT a drawback.  Most combodecks would want to play this card over Gemstone Mine any day, since it doesn't die du to overuse.  While it may be a slowpained city of brass (since you probably can't block), it's immidiate "I lose the life in your turn instead" might prove useful to combodecks based on Bargain. On the other hand, will this card bring back the Oath? All of a sudden, we have an uncounterable way to hand the opponent a dork that won't do him any good against the might of Morphling/Colossus.
In my world, SapphireOath might make a small impact on the metagame. Since I'm European and not german/dutch, the players with full power is about than 10-15% of the meta. This doesn't mean that Oath shouldn't see play in highpower meta's. Since more and more controldecks run solid creatures as their kill, I don't see why Oath shouldn't be played.
Especially when we have a new way to give that keeperplayer an unwanted token. Oath, and especially SapphireOath have always relied on  it's sideboard to handle the controlmirror - This will have to be the exception rather than the rule, should Oath reappear on the scene.  
It should be possible to build a strong UBG Oath deck on the Hulk base, opting to kill slowly, but way more reliable than with a 1/2 guy. It doesn't even need to cast it's wincondtion, moving the counterwars from a REB-able-card, to a green enchantment.

I need your thoughts.

[VGB]

So far this is the only card I am getting a playset of from Kami.

1) On a par with Gemstone Mine and City of Brass in combo.
2) Stellar in Oath - no more mandatory Funeral Pyre.
3) Makes opposing Balance bad (as in not as good).

edit-

Amend my first statement to include Cranial Extraction and Glimpse of Nature.

[orgcandman]

There are some flaws with that though, and I'll walk you through them briefly:

1) On a par with Gemstone Mine and City of Brass in combo.

The problem here is that usually combo will combo out before the mine is depleted. A good combo player knows when to use mine, and when to hold off, opting to filter through chromatic sphere, etc. Almost always, I'd rather have city than this, in case some random scrub I'm playing has his "White Weenie Equip" deck, and drops glorious anthems, bonesplitters, etc.. and all of a sudden that 1/1 is a 8035/1093 thanks to super power nubs playing odd decks. (READ: At the bottom tables, this is worse than city)

3) Makes opposing Balance bad (as in not as good).

If you're playing against a deck that runs balance, then you're playing against a control deck...most likely 4cControl, EBA, or parfait.  In which case, you've just given them something that they usually don't get out for a few turns anyway: a clock. Albeit, a 20 turn clock, but a clock no less. For free. From decks that don't perform well unless cards are giving them free mana. I don't think that the control player will mind you giving them a clock.
Also, this is anti-thetical to your "This is good in combo" argument. If this would only be played in combo, then why would the balance be affected? In fact, this would make getting to balance that much better, since you can ride a 1/1 as much as hard as you would like.

This land's drawback is worse than city of brass (read: "Whenever this becomes tapped, for the rest of the game during your opponents turn, take damage") and provides no observable boost (EDIT:)unless you're playing combo.

[Toad]

This land's drawback is worse than city of brass (read: "Whenever this becomes tapped, for the rest of the game during your opponents turn, take damage") and provides no observable boost.

In fact if you are planning on winning this turn after casting several Death Wishes or after drawing with Yawgmoth's Bargain, City of Brass as a real drawback while this has none.

[Charlie]

This would replace Glimmervoid/Underground Sea as the 9th/10th 5-color land in combo

[Hi-Val]

I can definitely see this as being played in DeathLong, where the COB damage really adds up and basically costs you a card off Necro or Barge-in. If you plan on winning that turn, as Deathlong does, this is critical.

Oath is still too slow because it would rely on this land and a creature to kill with. That, and it's green for god's sake.

Will this be played? Yes, in combo for sure.

[bebe]

Oath is still too slow because it would rely on this land and a creature to kill with. That, and it's green for god's sake.

I'm going to at least test a Landstill style Oath ...

4x Oath of Druids
1x Darksteel Colossus
1x Spike Feeder
1x Spike Weaver

4x Force of Will
3x Mana Leak
2x Annul
2x Crucible of the Worlds

4x Standstill
3x Brainstorm
2x Sylvan Library
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Regrowth
1x Crop Rotation
1x Gaeas Blessing


4x Tropical Island
4x Windswept Weath
4x Forbidden Orchard
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Black Lotus
3x Mishras Factory
3x Faery Conclave
3x Wasteland
1x Polluted Delta
1x Strip Mine

Sideboard
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Oxidize
3x Naturalize

6 meta slots

[Nehptis]

I've been eyeing this card as well.  In my limited play testing with proxies of it, it is more productive for me than a COB and G Mine in TOA combo.  The pain from the COB sometimes comes down to an immediate -1 draw from your Bargain.  This land is a delayed -1 from your Bargain.  Small difference but perhaps significant.  Also, although you do everything in your power to use the Mine efficiently there are games when you just run out of Mine counters.  This land allows you to play more freely and not worry about losing a land.

[JuJu]

It makes Crontrol Slaver Lava Darts feel less threatening in the CS vs DeathLong match. Ownage. [/Sarcasm]

Actually I really like this, It doesn't equal CoB in 4cc. How bout Stax? Not really. Combo, Yes.  I'm wondering how this will fair in t2 with all the spirits and the new mana flare.

[AngryPheldagrif]

*combo pops a boner*

etc.

-Dan

[g0tenks00]

As soon as I opened this discussion and saw this card, I immidiately became excited.

Especially in type 1 combo, while being on par with gemstone mine, I instead saw this replacing city of brass as a way to circumvent taking pain, making bargain and necro stronger.

Now I know this is controversial, because 1) there is no way to be sure that you will be winning in the first few turns of the game (and thus the 3 counters on gemstone mine are sufficient to get you the mana you need to win in 3 turns or less), and 2) there is no reason to change your manabase so drastically to bolster the strength of only 2 cards in the deck (albeit 2 very broken cards).

I don't want to be too absolute about these things, so I'll just leave those as thoughts off the top of my head and not make any real claims here.

It seems like this card has a place in type 1, and in type 1 combo, but how it fits in exactly seems yet to be determined. I am definitely excited about the possibilities though (especially after thinking about its synergy with oath).

[cccck]

Maybe Oath will appear again because of this card.

The classic Oath with morphing, weaver, feeder is slow.

But the speed of Oath depends on what creature you are using and your build. If you use 2-3 darksteel colossus and running dragon breath, the speed can be:
- Turn 1, Forbidden Orchard, Mox sapphire, oath
- Turn 2, Oath trigger, darksteel colossus in play and dragon breath in graveyard, dragon enchanted on colossus and it swing for 11. 3 open mana for countering your opponent's spell.
- Turn 3, colossus swing again and win.

The speed is similar as Tog/Hulk and more resistant to swords to plowsheres( the 2nd colossus will come back!). The combo a little bit slower than dragon, but dragon just loss to swords/stifle.

[cccck]

I'm going to at least test a Landstill style Oath ...

I think Forbidden Orchard is not good to run together with standstill.
The land is a degree of justice on board for your opponent!! or you are not going to tap the land for mana?

[timmy]

This will probably bring back an Oathstill style deck.
Your opponent gets a 1/1, you get an 11/11 indestructible trampler.
Sounds like a good deal to me.

[cccck]

This will probably bring back an Oathstill style deck

The deck will be Oath, not Oathstill. Standstill poorly interact with Forbidden Orchard!

[DrLambda]

Since i knew this card is real i'm testing out this:

//NAME: Forbidden Oath
// Creatures
        3 Darksteel Colossus
        1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
// Spells
        4 Force of Will
        4 Oath of Druids
        4 Thirst for Knowledge
        4 Brainstorm
        3 Fire/Ice
        2 Stifle
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Time Walk
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Mystical Tutor
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        1 Tinker
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Diamond
        1 Black Lotus
// Lands
        4 Tropical Island
        4 Flooded Strand
        4 Forbidden Orchard
        4 Island
        3 Yavimaya Coast
        1 Underground Sea
        1 Volcanic Island
        1 Forest

This version still is terribly raw and nothing i would bring to a tournament, but it's really fun to play right now. Against most decks, you dont even really need the orchard, but it still is really good against anything control.

I have the feeling this decks needs more counters to keep your threat on the table. And another thing this deck needs is testing, testing, testing. I don't think it can become a tournament regular again, but i can only repeat that its a fun deck par excellence.

[Danzig]

This will probably bring back an Oathstill style deck

The deck will be Oath, not Oathstill. Standstill poorly interact with Forbidden Orchard!

I wouldn't drop Forbidden Orchard until I had Oath out already and was prepared to activate it in response to Wasteland. Standstill would just help you protect Oath until after it triggers.

[oyzar]

Would not turo oath work. like get ds collosus and hit with berserk. Something like this:

// Creatures
2 Darksteel Colossus
// Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Oath of Druids  
4 Brainstorm
3 Dragon Breath
4 Berserk
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Diamond
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
// Lands
4 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Forbidden Orchard
2 Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Thundra


Like the last verson this too is very raw.

One thing this enables is something like Orchard-lotus-oath-time walk, then collos with breath berserk strike!

[bebe]

You try not to play Forbidden until Oath is out - use Standstill early for card advantage which will force your opponent to deal with your manlands by laying a creature - then Oath and protect with counter magic.
Turo Oath looks pretty good as well.

Just to mention - i used an Oath sidebaord at my last two tournaments and found that it worked very well against
Welders
Fish
Tog
GaT
WtFr

I never got to play Madness but would assume a similar result. With Forbiddens I could just play an Oath deck and forget about the Mask combo entirely.

[timmy]

I play madness and I have played against a couple oath decks.  If they can force an oath through early enough it can win the game.  But if the madness player can keep it off the table for a few turns the can just fly over what you oath up and win.

I think that the controllish oathstill and aggro oath could both become very viable decks in the current metagame

[cccck]

I think that the controllish oathstill and aggro oath could both become very viable decks in the current metagame

I agree. Obviously, Oath deck become more powerful because of Forbidden Orchard. People will play test it to see the match up with other deck and time will tell whether it is really viable in T1.
Just like mindslaver last year, people discussed its playability in T1 when they first see this card. I was first tried in TnT but now it is the theme of the world champion deck this year!

[TrixR4Kidz]

I was brainstorming up ideas for an oath deck, I think it can make a pretty strong comeback if it's made correctly, I'm not saying this list is the best it can get, It probably could be improved, but so far I liked what It is, leave some feedback..

//CORE: 34

4 Force Of Will
4 Mana drain
4 Oath of Druids
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
3 Nev's Disc
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Oxidize
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Timewalk
1 Balance
1 Mystical tutor
1 Gae's blessing
1 Fact or Fiction


//KILL: 3
3 Darksteel Colossus


//MANA: 23

5 Fetches
5 Islands
4 Forbidden Orchard
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Sol ring
1 Mox saphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus

I haven't made a definitive sideboard because it usually changes due to metagame, A strong card I considered mainboarding was damping matrix.

[Andreas]

I have a few comments regarding a possible Oath of Druids Deck. Some of this was said already in the now locked other Oath thread, but I fel it is worth mentioning here as well:

1) The Intuition/AK Engine seems really strong in this type of deck. AK has the benefit that after an Oath activation most likely there are some AK already in the grave, and Intuition can serve as a tutor for Oath of Druids.

2) It should at least be tried to replace Darksteel Colossus and Gaea's Blessing with Cognivore and Krosan Reclamation.

Advantages of the Cognivore:

- Cognivore is easier to hardcast (this is probably moot most of the time).
- If things go decently well a Cognivore can kill on the first swing, since ideally by that time you are past your second Oath activation.
- Cognivore can not be welded out by that peskiest of little goblins...

Disadvantages of the Cognivore:

- Cognivore dies to Red Elemental Blast. Honestly, what other commonly played removal is there in current Type 1 that does kill a Cognivore but can not touch a Darksteel Colossus?

[Thug]

Another possible win condition is recurring Mindslvar with Bringer of the White dawn. It a full turn faster than a Colossus and doesn't die to Goblin Welder, however it does require a Slaver in your graveyard. So if you play with 2 creatures you would have to run at least 3 Slavers. This would probably make thirst a decent card, but than you would have to ask yourself if oath is better than Welder is.

However, you would be surprised how easy bringer can be to hardcast if you run ±6 5colour lands backup up with some duals and fetches.

Koen

[Andreas]

Another possible win condition is recurring Mindslvar with Bringer of the White dawn. It a full turn faster than a Colossus and doesn't die to Goblin Welder, however it does require a Slaver in your graveyard. So if you play with 2 creatures you would have to run at least 3 Slavers. This would probably make thirst a decent card, but than you would have to ask yourself if oath is better than Welder is.

Against most decks Oath has the advantage that you only need to find and play one card to set up your combo. And that card dies neither to Fire/Ice, nor to Lava Dart...

On the other hand the Bringer/Mindslaver version has almost the same problems with Null Rod that Drain Slaver has. I am saying almost, because a 5/5 body still might be enough to win some games. A Darksteel Colossus or Cognivore just laughs at that little Rod.

This leaves us with a third option: Colossus/Cognivore in the maindeck and Slaver/Bringer in the sideboard, or vica versa.

[Falc]

Cognivore is awful in Oath.  The only reason it was ever used in Extended was because Gaea's Blessing and Swords both rotated out of the format.  If you want to go straight for the throat, use Colossus.  If you want to play it safe, use Morphling/Feeder/Weaver.  There are no other viable options.

- Falc

[cophos]

Why should u play the feeder?
I think hes too slow. The Weaver is much better against aggro. ( together with morphling even better, for secret countertech. )

[DEA]

you've never had the pleasure of playing against ankh sligh, i can tell

[Thug]

On the other hand the Bringer/Mindslaver version has almost the same problems with Null Rod that Drain Slaver has. I am saying almost, because a 5/5 body still might be enough to win some games. A Darksteel Colossus or Cognivore just laughs at that little Rod.

Thats is why I was trying to advocate a 1Bringer/ 1Colossus setup but I guess I didn't make myself clear, I retyped my post more than twice (grammar problems) so it must have got lost somewhere.

You are going to need at least two creatures, and there's little reason they have to carry the same name, a little diversity never hurt nobody, did it?

In theorie and on paper such a deck could include quite a lot of cute tools, but the main problem seems to be finding the proper draw engine, and I think thats whats really makes the difference. Who cares about the creatures you chose to run if you lose every control-battle. (you might be able to sneak in some early wins with first turn oaths and such, but I doubt you can rely on that enough to give up on a ny other strategy against control)

AK seems to be the favourite right now, but for it to be effective against control you are going to need more than 8 counterspells (duress, leak, misd?) and a good number of Intuitions.

Scryings seem a lot more powerfull but the question is can you support them: do you want to run black? do you have enough cards in your graveyard in the early game? (that you don't mind removing). Black also offers Demonic, Will and possibly Entomb (seems pretty neat)

Thirst is another options, turning the deck almost into controlslaver with Oath instead of Welders. This defenitly has advantages against some deck, but it also makes a much less stable mana-base, which is one of the reason why Crucibles seem needed in such a version, another reason for the Crucibles is that you need a good number of artifact for Thirst to be fully effective.

I think right now choosing the proper draw-engine is much more important than depating over creature choices, although their should be a good synergy between both engine and creature choise.

Whatever,

Koen

[Zelc]

I posted this in the Budget Oath thread, but since that got closed, I'll post it on this one too.

I just realized a huge problem with Oath. For example:

You: Land, Mox, Oath.
Opponent: Forbidden Orchard

At this point, you're down to swinging for 1 (or maybe 2 if they manaburn on the Orchard activation) each turn, unless you manage to get more Orchards into play. This is really bad since most decks that'll play Forbidden Orchard will be combo decks, and a 10/20-turn clock is not enough. Even worse, if they have something nasty in their library (like their own Darksteel Colossus), you're not going to be very happy.

This deck needs some way of removing creatures or lands, or opposing Forbidden Orchards can shut you down.

If you go with the Bringer plan, you may want to have something in your graveyard that you can bring back other than mana and Slaver.  Preferably, this would be something that's not affected by Null Rod.  Perhaps something like Mind's Eye (could just be a win more, but I really can't think of another artifact of this kind right now).

By the way, Mana Leak is pure gold in this deck, as it lets this deck pretend it's UgPhid.  Intuitions and AKs lets this deck outdraw control.

By the way, is there any way to add Back To Basics?  With the dependence on nonbasic lands, I'm thinking no, but that'd be a real pity.  Back to Basics can be so strong.