[Singlecard-discussion] Forbidden Orchard

[Thug]

If you go with the Bringer plan, you may want to have something in your graveyard that you can bring back other than mana and Slaver. Preferably, this would be something that's not affected by Null Rod. Perhaps something like Mind's Eye (could just be a win more, but I really can't think of another artifact of this kind right now).

Crucible, easy as that, you will most likely already have wastes in your yard so Crucible is very strong if your opponent has a way to stop Slaver, or if you simply haven't found one yet.

By the way, is there any way to add Back To Basics? With the dependence on nonbasic lands, I'm thinking no, but that'd be a real pity. Back to Basics can be so strong.

The problem is that B2B loses a lot of its power if you run a high number of non-basics yourself, and the way I see it you want 4 Forbidden, at least 2-3 tropicals (if you stay in two colours), LoA and 4-5 Strips.

Koen

[Andreas]

Cognivore is awful in Oath.  The only reason it was ever used in Extended was because Gaea's Blessing and Swords both rotated out of the format.  If you want to go straight for the throat, use Colossus.  If you want to play it safe, use Morphling/Feeder/Weaver.  There are no other viable options.

Now why would the Colossus be better than Cognivore if I want to go straight for the throat? As I mentioned already in one of my posts the only removal currently played in a substantial amount of T1-decks that kills Cognivore but does not kill Darksteel Colossus is Red Elemental Blast. On the other hand Cognivore is immune to stupid Goblin Welder tricks.

On the other hand, a Darksteel Colossus needs two attacks to win. The Cognivore version has a significant chance to kill in the first attack.

I am not saying the Cognivore is really better, but I simply detest absolute statements like "there are no other viable options" at this stage of the development.

By the way, is there any way to add Back To Basics? With the dependence on nonbasic lands, I'm thinking no, but that'd be a real pity. Back to Basics can be so strong.

The problem is that B2B loses a lot of its power if you run a high number of non-basics yourself, and the way I see it you want 4 Forbidden, at least 2-3 tropicals (if you stay in two colours), LoA and 4-5 Strips.

Koen

I am not so sure this deck really needs strip effects. I would rather up the basic land count myself.

I am also not 100% sure you really want 4 Forbidden Orchard. Maybe 3 is enough. The logic behind this is as follows:

- Against decks with creatures you do not need Forbidden Orchard at all. Most likely a basic land is much better in this case, especially against the likes of 5/3.

- Against a control deck, where you will have to settle for a longer game, a Forbidden Orcherd without an Oath on the table is bad, as two uses of the thing already put yourself on a annoying clock. Also in this scenario 3 Orchards should be enough to find them when you need to. Of course 4 Orchards are better if you want to go for a quick (turn 1 or 2) Oath.

That said my current test list looks something like this:

        4 Oath of Druids
        1 Krosan Reclamation
        2 Cognivore

        4 Mana Leak
        4 Mana Drain
        4 Force of Will

        4 Brainstorm
        1 Ancestral Recall
        4 Accumulated Knowledge
        3 Intuition
        2 Cunning Wish
        1 Fact or Fiction

        1 Time Walk

        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        5 Island
        1 Library of Alexandria
        2 Flooded Strand
        4 Polluted Delta
        4 Tropical Island
        3 Forbidden Orchard

Sideboard
        1 Naturalize
        0-1 Berserk
        1 Boomerang
        0-4 Oxidize
        0-4 Back to Basics
        1 Moment's Peace
        2-4 Blue Elemental Blast
        0-1 Psionic Blast
        0-1 Enlightened Tutor
        0-1 Swords to Plowshares
        0-1 Vampiric Tutor
        etc.

Most of the time in my limited testing the first Cognivore attack was lethal.

Untested options include:
- Adding a Mystical Tutor maindeck (Time walk is really strong in this deck)
- Adding some Deep Analysis in the maindeck or the Sideboard
- Adding some Misdirections to the Deck

[policehq]

I think the problem with playing only 3 Forbidden Orchard, at least for the next couple of weeks, is an opposing Forbidden Orchard. If they give you a creature, they can activate Oath of Druids or at least prevent you from activating it. Playing 4 orchards means you can use 1 as a Wasteland.

Don't you think Forbidden Orchard is important enough to the deck to run Crop Rotation (also an instant, to boot)?

Have you tested Dragon Breath to make that lethal Cognivore attack one turn sooner?

Barry

[timmy]

I think that forbidden orchard should not be your only way to give them a creature.  I have added 3 funeral pyre into my maindeck.  Not only does this give you a creature but with the multitude of welders and other graveyard recursion, it can be very useful in some matchups

second I like white better than black because it also gives you StP which is also helpful and balance.
Balance will be awesome in this deck.  If it has a DSC in play it can just give an opponent a 1/1 to save its creature and then nuke their hand/lands
it also will bail you out of hopeless situations, I think we can all atest to that.

[Andreas]

I think the problem with playing only 3 Forbidden Orchard, at least for the next couple of weeks, is an opposing Forbidden Orchard. If they give you a creature, they can activate Oath of Druids or at least prevent you from activating it. Playing 4 orchards means you can use 1 as a Wasteland.

Honestly, I am not (yet) worried about the mirror match with this deck. I might have to eat my words someday, though.

Don't you think Forbidden Orchard is important enough to the deck to run Crop Rotation (also an instant, to boot)?

Honestly, no. After all, Crop Rotation is card disadvantage, and at it's core this is a control deck. Also, against a lot of decks you do not need the Orchard at all. Four Orchards should definitely be enough. This is just a gut feeling, though.

Have you tested Dragon Breath to make that lethal Cognivore attack one turn sooner?

Actually, the way Cognivore works in the majority of the cases Dragon Breath would not accelerate the kill. As an explanation:

Turn X: You drop Oath and opponent has a creature (of his own or due to Orchard)
Turn X+1: You oath up the first Cognivore. If it is not very late in the game the Cognivore at this stage usually is somewhere between 8/8 and 13/13.
Turn X+2: You oath a second time. Usually now enough instants are put in the grave to make the Cognivores lethal.

Even if Dragon Breath would have allowed an attack on Turn X+1, that alone would not have been lethal, and on turn X+2 the lethal Cognivore would have been able to attack with or without the breath.

Of course there are situations where the Dragon Breath would accelerate the kill, for example when the first Cognivore gets killed or when even after the second oathing the Cognivore is still not large enough, in which case the first attack would have mattered. I just feel at the moment that these cases are too narrow to warrant including Dragon Breath. I might have to change my mind on this as well, though.

[Falc]

Now why would the Colossus be better than Cognivore if I want to go straight for the throat? As I mentioned already in one of my posts the only removal currently played in a substantial amount of T1-decks that kills Cognivore but does not kill Darksteel Colossus is Red Elemental Blast. On the other hand Cognivore is immune to stupid Goblin Welder tricks.

On the other hand, a Darksteel Colossus needs two attacks to win. The Cognivore version has a significant chance to kill in the first attack.

I am not saying the Cognivore is really better, but I simply detest absolute statements like "there are no other viable options" at this stage of the development.

Let me break it down for you.  If you play Cognivore, then you cannot play Gaea's Blessing.  That should be obvious.  That means that if your Cognivores get killed in any way, you lose the game.  So what kills them?  Besides Swords there's any sort of Wrath effect, any sort of Edict effect, Nev's Disk, REB, oh and don't forget about Tormod's Crypt.  It's not just that these spells kill the Cognivore, it's that they win the game because all they have to do is kill the Cognivore and you lose.  Compare that to DSC.  Only double Swords can put you in an unwinnable situation.  If the Colossus gets dealt with by other means (Edict, discard, etc.), he just gets shuffled back in and comes out again next turn.

I think you're way way overestimating the effectiveness of Welder against this strategy.  You do realize that you have to have an artifact in your grave for your opponent to Welder your DSC, right?  And then you do realize that it'll get shuffled back in and you'll just Oath it up again next turn, right?  So at worst Welder acts like a Fog for two or three turns, unless you don't have an artifact in your yard in which case it does nothing.  On the other hand, if you end up with two Cognivores in the grave and don't have or can't resolve Reclamation... well, you lose the game.

By playing Cognivore you're taking a huge huge risk of ending up with no win conditions against any number of matchups just to avoid Welder and maybe get a few extra points of power.  Cognivore is vulerable to a wide variety of things that DSC isn't, and when that vulnerability is exploited, you lose the game.  DSC is vulnerable to only one thing that Cognivore isn't (Welder) and when that vulnerability is exploited, you don't lose, it just delays your win by a few turns.  That's why DSC is strictly superior in every way.  At most, I could understand running a couple Morphlings in the sideboard to bring in against Welder decks and StP decks, but Cognivore is way too risky and completely pointless.

- Falc

[policehq]

I think after activating Oath, Goblin Welder will have plenty of targets to trade with your Darksteel Colossus. He could very well act as a Fog for the rest of the game, since you have to keep activating Oath to get DSC into play, and Aggro-Welder decks either have Juggernauts, Platinum Angels, Sundering Titans, or Darksteel Colossus themselves running down on you.

Duplicant recursion via Goblin Welder is just like double-SToP against Darksteel Colossus, and the uprising of Control Magic is definitely bad news. TnT can play Gilded Drake, too, which ruins your game-plan.

I think the best plan is to go with a lot of creatures like Platinum Angel, Spike Weaver, Duplicant, etc. because there are just too many answers to playing one big creature and attacking the next one to three turns. Furthermore, I think that Masknaught's ultimate failure to be competitive is a result from having only 4 "must counter" spells. Limiting your game-plan to winning only after activating an Oath is a bad idea these days.

Barry

[timmy]

I think that Masknaught's ultimate failure to be competitive is a result from having only 4 "must counter" spells. Limiting your game-plan to winning only after activating an Oath is a bad idea these days.

Actually MaskNaught has been back on the rise in recent tournaments.  With all the aggro-control decks out there winning with 1 big creature has become a lot more viable.  Your disruption and the fact that your more of a control deck then they are should let you force through most spells that you want.
Also against combo decks being able to beat them down in 3-4 turns with a bit of countrol back up makes that match a lot better for you.

[garlick]

Duplicant recursion via Goblin Welder is just like double-SToP against Darksteel Colossus, and the uprising of Control Magic is definitely bad news. TnT can play Gilded Drake, too, which ruins your game-plan.

...Furthermore, I think that Masknaught's ultimate failure to be competitive is a result from having only 4 "must counter" spells. Limiting your game-plan to winning only after activating an Oath is a bad idea these days.

Barry

Probably you need to remember that when you oath up a colossus you have al least 2 manas open and that you run 12 counterspell, following the list previously posted

[Falc]

Like I said, if you have that many problems with Welder (which you won't if you'd just try it out), then just side out the DSC in that matchup for a couple Morphling.  But for the maindeck DSC is definitely the best choice.  It has a huge upside with very little risk.

- Falc

[policehq]

Duplicant recursion via Goblin Welder is just like double-SToP against Darksteel Colossus, and the uprising of Control Magic is definitely bad news. TnT can play Gilded Drake, too, which ruins your game-plan.

...Furthermore, I think that Masknaught's ultimate failure to be competitive is a result from having only 4 "must counter" spells. Limiting your game-plan to winning only after activating an Oath is a bad idea these days.

Barry

Probably you need to remember that when you oath up a colossus you have al least 2 manas open and that you run 12 counterspell, following the list previously posted

And what does that do against a previously played Goblin Welder, exactly?

Barry

[bebe]

Masknaught's ultimate failure to be competitive is a result from having only 4 "must counter" spells. Limiting your game-plan to winning only after activating an Oath is a bad idea these days.

First off, Mask decks have top eighted at the last two Ontario Vintage Championships. As well, it was played at Duelman to a 5-2 record last time out and just missed the top eight. The deck list is yet to be discussed on this site - more to said later. The sideboard of the current Mask list is - wait for it - Oath of course. I've yet to lose a match against aggro or aggro-control with the Oath sideboard and I'm a poor mizer.

And what does that do against a previously played Goblin Welder, exactly?

Goblin Welder is only a threat if you have an artifact in your graveyard. So I don't Tinker up my Colossus  and I don't use a Lotus. Welder has not beat me yet. I've lost to Workshop bhut never because of Welder. Duplicant is far worse but I play ten counters and plenty of draw.

This said, I think an Oath sideboard is better than playing Oath  maindeck. You can still main deck a few Forbiddens in a number of decks using an Oath sideboard.

[Zelc]

Honestly, I am not (yet) worried about the mirror match with this deck. I might have to eat my words someday, though.

It's not the mirror you should be worried about.  LongDeath and Draw7 will likely add multiple copies of Forbidden Orchard to their maindeck now that CHK is now legal.  I really don't think that a 10/20 turn clock is what you want against combo decks.

[policehq]

Goblin Welder is only a threat if you have an artifact in your graveyard. So I don't Tinker up my Colossus  and I don't use a Lotus. Welder has not beat me yet. I've lost to Workshop bhut never because of Welder. Duplicant is far worse but I play ten counters and plenty of draw.

I'm sorry, but have you read Oath of Druids? There's little chance of not getting an artifact into your graveyard after activating it.

I'm very interested in seeing some successful Masknaught decks, unless you're talking about Vengeur-Mask, which is a completely different deck and does not run only 4 "must counter" cards (which was my point before).

Barry

[Tha Gunslinga]

I think that Masknaught's ultimate failure to be competitive is a result from having only 4 "must counter" spells.

Let's review those "4" must-counter spells, shall we?

4x Illusionary Mask
3-4x Phyrexian Negator
1x Yawgmoth's Will

That's 8-9 right there.  Then we factor in the "counter me or lose your counter, and probably the game" cards:
4x Duress
3-4x Unmask


So, why are we talking shit about MaskNought?

I'd go with Cognivore over Colossus for these reasons:


Cognivore vs Colossus:

Killability: Colossus wins
Mazeability: They both suck
STP-ability: They both suck
Hardcastability:  Cogni wins
Weldability: Cogni wins
Fastest kill: Cogni wins
Control-Magic-proof: Cogni wins
Spirit tokens-Can they block it?: Cogni wins
Opponent busts out a 12/12 Dreadnought of DOOM: Cogni wins
Opponent Tinkers out their own damn Colossus: Cogni flies over and WINS

[Vegeta2711]

I'm sorry, but have you read Oath of Druids? There's little chance of not getting an artifact into your graveyard after activating it.

I'm sorry, could you not sound like a huge ass? Seriously, show a little respect to your elders.

First off if Welder was that big a deal we could always run the ancient tech of Gaea's Blessing to clean our graves every time.

Second, assuming Welder is out and you Oath up an artifact... big deal? Even if you hit an artifact or two, every time they weld in an artifact, that's one less they can do the next time you Oath. Eventually even if you Oath up every non-DC artfiact, eventually they'll run out of targets.  So essentially their trading Welder uses for time. They usually end up losing that race since you can then safely counter their stuff and not worry about it being recurred until your colossus is in a good position.

And of course there's always the chance you get double oath into play.

[Andreas]

Let me break it down for you.  If you play Cognivore, then you cannot play Gaea's Blessing.  That should be obvious.

It is. That was why my sample list had a Krosan Reclamation is it. Also quite obvious.

That means that if your Cognivores get killed in any way, you lose the game.  So what kills them?  Besides Swords there's any sort of Wrath effect, any sort of Edict effect, Nev's Disk, REB, oh and don't forget about Tormod's Crypt.  It's not just that these spells kill the Cognivore, it's that they win the game because all they have to do is kill the Cognivore and you lose.  Compare that to DSC.  Only double Swords can put you in an unwinnable situation.  If the Colossus gets dealt with by other means (Edict, discard, etc.), he just gets shuffled back in and comes out again next turn.

I would like to mention that most of the removal you listed won't be a threat pre-board. Also these spells have to kill both Cognivores in order for you to loose.

Maybe the best idea would be to play Cognivore pre-board and bring in the Darksteel Colossus after boarding, when you anticipate the opponent to bring in now not so useful REBs and Crypts and when you can bring in ways to kill the Welder (if the opponent plays any).

I think you're way way overestimating the effectiveness of Welder against this strategy.  You do realize that you have to have an artifact in your grave for your opponent to Welder your DSC, right?  And then you do realize that it'll get shuffled back in and you'll just Oath it up again next turn, right?

Most of this has already been said, but just to sum it up:

1. After an Oath activation there is a very good chance that at least a few artifacts are in your graveyard.
2. Once the welder is active even Gaea's Blessing won't help much here, as it is possible to weld in response to the trigger from Gaea's Blessing.

So at worst Welder acts like a Fog for two or three turns, unless you don't have an artifact in your yard in which case it does nothing.  On the other hand, if you end up with two Cognivores in the grave and don't have or can't resolve Reclamation... well, you lose the game.

Regarding Krosan Reclamation: The 'don't have' case is rather unlikely, as after all the card has flashback, which is why it gets played in the first place.

The 'Can't resolve' case can happen at times, but that is why you play countermagic. Not that it works every time.

By playing Cognivore you're taking a huge huge risk of ending up with no win conditions against any number of matchups just to avoid Welder and maybe get a few extra points of power.  Cognivore is vulerable to a wide variety of things that DSC isn't, and when that vulnerability is exploited, you lose the game.  DSC is vulnerable to only one thing that Cognivore isn't (Welder) and when that vulnerability is exploited, you don't lose, it just delays your win by a few turns.

This is exactly the biggest advantage of Cognivore in my opinion: It has the potential to kill a turn faster, even if the opponent has no welders, and against welders it can be quite a few turns faster. This means less time for the opponet to pull off his combo or to find an answer to the Cognivore and/or the Oath.

That's why DSC is strictly superior in every way.  At most, I could understand running a couple Morphlings in the sideboard to bring in against Welder decks and StP decks, but Cognivore is way too risky and completely pointless.

As you probably noticed by now here I disagree. I simply think both creatures do have their advantages, and none is strictly superior to the other.

At the moment in my impression the metagame is very creature-removal-light (except for StP), which means the biggest strength of Darksteel Colossus is not as important, while Cognivore's relative susceptibility does not matter as much. In other metagames the choice may be different.

I'd go with Cognivore over Colossus for these reasons:

Cognivore vs Colossus:

Killability: Colossus wins
Mazeability: They both suck
STP-ability: They both suck
Hardcastability: Cogni wins
Weldability: Cogni wins
Fastest kill: Cogni wins
Control-Magic-proof: Cogni wins

In this regard DSC wins, as Cognivore counts the instants in both graveyards.

Spirit tokens-Can they block it?: Cogni wins

Since DSC tramples it does not matter much if it is blocked by a spirit token. Except for the fact that this will prevent further Oath activations. Which also does not matter as much once you have one Darksteel Colossus in play.

Opponent busts out a 12/12 Dreadnought of DOOM: Cogni wins
Opponent Tinkers out their own damn Colossus: Cogni flies over and WINS

One point to add to the list: Pitchability to Force of Will: Cogni wins. Of course this can be risky at times.  

[Covetous]

People have been playing Oath in type 1 for a while.  Cognivore has been used in Extended Oath decks for a while.  Do you think people have not considered the possibility of running Cognivore in type 1 Oath?  You can come up with any number of reasons that one may be better than the other, but let's face it--people already tried Cognivore and it didn't turn out to be as strong as Morphling/Weaver/Feeder (is this what we call "Trust the mise"?).  The reason that cognivore isn't as good (all other smaller reasons aside) is that Blessing exists.  Blessing is awesome in this deck--getting to play Time walk or ancestral recall over and over is tech.  Also, immunity to REB is a serious advantage to DSC.  As to Weldability--you can either kill the welder or play some other win conditions.

Now, the question as I see it is whether or not Colossus is better than Morphling/Weaver/Feeder (and by the way, would Baloth be better than Feeder or not?).  Using 2 DSC as kill is nice in that Timmy way, but I'm not really sure that it's the best way to win.  I think that m/f/w possibly plus colossus is better.  

And on two other notes--if you read Oath, you'll realize that Dragon Breath won't work (unless I have my signals crossed) because Oath puts the creature into play and then puts the cards into the GY.  Also, because of blessing this wouldn't work very well, and neither would intuition/AK (well, intuition/AK could work IF you don't hit a blessing or AK in response to blessing).

[Toad]

And on two other notes--if you read Oath, you'll realize that Dragon Breath won't work (unless I have my signals crossed) because Oath puts the creature into play and then puts the cards into the GY.  Also, because of blessing this wouldn't work very well, and neither would intuition/AK (well, intuition/AK could work IF you don't hit a blessing or AK in response to blessing).

[card]Oath of Druids[/card]

* Re: Dragon Breath

The player puts that card into play and all other cards revealed this way into his or her graveyard.

Both effects are simultaneous ("and"). It does work.

* Re: Dragon Breath + Gaea's Blessing

The active player controls both effects, hence he can stack them at will. It does work.

[Timewalker]

[card]Oath of Druids[/card]

* Re: Dragon Breath

The player puts that card into play and all other cards revealed this way into his or her graveyard.

Both effects are simultaneous ("and"). It does work.

* Re: Dragon Breath + Gaea's Blessing

The active player controls both effects, hence he can stack them at will. It does work.

Are you sure about this? Doesn't the oracle referrence to simultaneously refer to cards being put into the graveyard simultaneuosly an therefore giving the controlling player the ability to put the cards in the graveyard in any order? Doesn't the putting a creature into play have to be resolved first based on the sequencing in the oracle description? Am very interested to clarify this... Thanks.

[VGB]

Are you sure about this? Doesn't the oracle referrence to simultaneously refer to cards being put into the graveyard simultaneuosly an therefore giving the controlling player the ability to put the cards in the graveyard in any order? Doesn't the putting a creature into play have to be resolved first based on the sequencing in the oracle description? Am very interested to clarify this... Thanks.

From Jeff Jordan's NetRep reply to this question:

When you resolve Oath of Druids' ability, do you do all actions in the order written, or are the cards put into play and graveyard simultaneously (allowing a revealed Dragon Scales to enchant it)?
(Wondered because of the answer concerning Cabal Archon in NetRep reply 710.)

The actions are simultaneous. Oath uses one one (very complex, but one) clause to tell you to put the cards in the various zones. The Cabal Archon is different because it uses two clauses.

If you put a Dragon Scales into the graveyard this way, its ability will trigger.

[Timewalker]

@VGB: Thanks for the info.

So now that dragon's breath + either DSC or Cognivore is viable, Oath + Orchard becomes a potent kill set-up combo. True it may not be as fast as D4rGOn, but still decently fast nonetheless. Dragon's breath saves a turn which, in my view is a world of difference. It is now a possibly viable tier 2 combo deck. Hoorah for oath! :lol:

[policehq]

I'm sorry, but have you read Oath of Druids? There's little chance of not getting an artifact into your graveyard after activating it.

I'm sorry, could you not sound like a huge ass? Seriously, show a little respect to your elders.

It's just that my results against Goblin Welder came from a little TESTING and not from presuppositions. Artifacts DO go into the graveyard, and...

Second, assuming Welder is out and you Oath up an artifact... big deal? Even if you hit an artifact or two, every time they weld in an artifact, that's one less they can do the next time you Oath. Eventually even if you Oath up every non-DC artfiact, eventually they'll run out of targets.  So essentially their trading Welder uses for time. They usually end up losing that race since you can then safely counter their stuff and not worry about it being recurred until your colossus is in a good position.

Against what deck using Goblin Welder does their Goblin Welder becoming Time Walk x2-4 become a good thing? Is it good to have Darksteel Colossus out when the opponent is activating Mindslaver against you every turn (please, for the love of God, don't say you'll counter Mindslaver)? Or is the "fog" effect of Goblin Welder good when a Sundering Titan or Juggernaut is attacking you? What about when they're using Survival of the Fittest to set up a recurring Duplicant?

I personally think that Covetous is on the right track with using several creatures, especially since Forbidden Orchard can set up an Oath Of Druids activation every upkeep.

Barry

[bebe]

It's just that my results against Goblin Welder came from a little TESTING and not from presuppositions. Artifacts DO go into the graveyard, and...

Well my results come from four tournaments three of which were 30-45 person and one which was 60. This is aside from our own testing. Now we use Oath out the side but it works non-the-less. Admittedly we bring in three BeB or at worse Cunning Wish for it or a Gaeas which is very helpful.

[Rico Suave]

I don't get where you people think Cognivore is necessarily faster.  In one Oath activation, a Cognivore can get the Breath on it, but in many cases it's only a 4/4 or so.  Colossus is automatically an 11/11, which is IMO the most desireable trait.

Another good thing to have is Tinker.  You can't Tinker up a Cognivore.  This means that if you use Colossus, you essentially get 2 additional ways to get a big dude on the board (Tinker and Mystical Tutor).  

It's for these reasons that I don't think Colossus can be ignored, but on the other hand a single Goblin Welder can hold it off.  So why not use both Cognivore and Colossus?  Then you get the best of both worlds.

Anyway, I just want to say that Forbidden Orchard is to Oath what Cabal Therapy is to Rector decks, and Therapy revolutionized that archetype.

[Covetous]

Let's be fair--if someone has a welder in play (which of course you want to prevent) and you have an Oath, you try to remove the welder rather than Oathing.  You should probably have 8-12 ways of countering welder (probably closer to 8) and hopefully 3-5+ ways of removing him (i.e. STP + powder keg or engineered E).  I'd really hope that he wouldn't stick around too long.  Hey, shit happens, but just because people play welder and welder + colossus sucks for you, doesn't mean that colossus sucks.  Tinker-->Colossus is becoming more and more common despite the upswing in welder use.  DSC is still huge and welder is still easily removable.  As to Cognivore--it's inconsistent and this is type 1.  Sure, the 'Vore can be 28/28 or something ridiculous, but it can also be a 4/4 or 5/5 that can be killed with REB and prevents the use of Blseeing, one of the reasons to play this deck in type 1.

Thanks for correcting me on the Oath/Dragon Breath interaction.  I was reading the card too literally.  I still wonder if it's necessary to run Dragon Breath--do you really need to win on that turn?  As a control deck, I would think that against most decks you could let the colossus wait a turn to do his face-smashing thing rather than wasting 1-3 maindeck slots for a card that does nothing by itself.  Cunning wish-->Berserk seems better because Wish by itself is useful (unlike Dragon Breath).  I guess I just tend to approach this deck as a control deck that wins using a combo (well, the combo win adds to the control aspect) rather than a deck that needs to win NOW.

[Vegeta2711]

It's just that my results against Goblin Welder came from a little TESTING and not from presuppositions. Artifacts DO go into the graveyard, and...

Because obviously noone could've possibly TRIED IT OUT AS WELL? Jeez. All your doing is making assumptions for what other people have done and that's generally a really bad way to try to make an arguement. I won't bother with the tone again.

Against what deck using Goblin Welder does their Goblin Welder becoming Time Walk x2-4 become a good thing? Is it good to have Darksteel Colossus out when the opponent is activating Mindslaver against you every turn (please, for the love of God, don't say you'll counter Mindslaver)? Or is the "fog" effect of Goblin Welder good when a Sundering Titan or Juggernaut is attacking you? What about when they're using Survival of the Fittest to set up a recurring Duplicant?

My turn to say wtf? No, of course it's not a good thing. Activating Mindslaver against me every turn? Please. That takes some time, and as you said, all they're doing is fogging. It's not as if I'm only Oathing my turn until like turn 5/6 when you get in a position to dump Slaver in my face.  Though yes, this would be one of the times where Welder would pose a signficant threat, assuming I had no way to deal with him after multiple turns. As for opposing creatures, it's far easier to deal with those since not only do they require much more time to beat you, but Titan costs even more than Slaver to put into play anyways.

So yes it is an annoyance, but far from as game-breaking as you make it sound.

And this is all assuming that if it was a problem you continued to use the 2 DSC set-up. It's really not hard to run a MD or SB Trike/Crater Hellion/Ancient Hyrda to take care of it.  Thus voiding the whole arguement anyways.

Hey, shit happens, but just because people play welder and welder + colossus sucks for you, doesn't mean that colossus sucks. Tinker-->Colossus is becoming more and more common despite the upswing in welder use. DSC is still huge and welder is still easily removable

This sums up my arguement anyways.

[Timewalker]

Thanks for correcting me on the Oath/Dragon Breath interaction.  I was reading the card too literally.  I still wonder if it's necessary to run Dragon Breath--do you really need to win on that turn?  As a control deck, I would think that against most decks you could let the colossus wait a turn to do his face-smashing thing rather than wasting 1-3 maindeck slots for a card that does nothing by itself.  Cunning wish-->Berserk seems better because Wish by itself is useful (unlike Dragon Breath).  I guess I just tend to approach this deck as a control deck that wins using a combo (well, the combo win adds to the control aspect) rather than a deck that needs to win NOW.

I have playtested the old Cogni-breath in old extended when tinker-stax was prevalent. Bottomline is the extra turn does make a difference.  Back to Vintage, I do feel that the Oathchard deck slightly does deviate from a pure control deck and become more combo-control. The control aspect of the deck is now more devoted to protecting the combo. Cunning wish is good but sometimes when we're desiring a third turn kill, the wish might not reach. Speeding up kill clock is better for the deck because it leaves less opportunity for the opponent to do something nasty. I agree that Orchard does beef up the decktype a whole lot. Let us be open into seeing the decktype as something that can take full advantage of this evolution.
With regards to this infamous welder issue... I feel the deck can pack enough maindeck answers for maindeck welders. More anti-welder goodies can also be boarded in game 2 like damping matrix. Let's see your opponent weld that baby in for the DSC.  3-color  Oathchard is workable, just pick your poison, whether it be red or white...
I cannot wait to begin playtesting!

[leviat]

In reality, Cognivore offers very little advantage over Colossus. Colossus takes two attacks in order to kill your opponent, Cognivore will almost NEVER be high enough to kill your opponent in one swing, thus, it is no faster than using Colossus.

As for Dragon Breath, it really is not that great of a card, but the haste DOES make that much of a different. Killing your opponent one turn faster means everything in T1. This IS type-1 and broken things do happen, so killing your opponent as fast as possible should always be your primary goal.

Colossus has a problem with welder, we all know this (so start thinking about adding a way to deal with it). Cognivore is cute and all, but you can't tinker for it which means your deck will have less solutions for winning.

The point here is that both choices lose to StoP, both choices are too slow for DeathLong, and both choices can't win against Platinum Angel. There's the entire cardpool out there, I'm sure you people can get a little more creative than this.

[theorigamist]

So wait, why don't people sideboard a Trike and stop arguing about Welder?  Also, the fact that Welder exists is not a justification to stop using good artifacts.  DSC is a house.  Instead of looking for an alternative, why not just look for a way to deal with Welder.  (As a sidenote, it is almost strictly better to find a way to deal with an opposing strategy than to find a way to make your deck less susceptible to that strategy.  I'm not saying this is always true, but it is very generally and widely applicable.)