Shuffling the Opponent's Deck: Serious Discussion

[The Atog Lord]

Nice photos, Kerz. As for myself, I'll usually shuffle my deck like that a few times, I may pile my deck, and then I'll do several more of those drop shuffles. Never less than seven. This is a great way to shuffle, and it does nothing painful to the cards.

[VarienTanafres]

who would've thought that shuffling was such a big deal. I let my opponent to their hearts desire, end result will be me cutting their deck. you cut with three piles and it doesn't matter if they stacked their cards, the stack will be in a different order and deeper into their library.

[Jacob Orlove]

who would've thought that shuffling was such a big deal. I let my opponent to their hearts desire, end result will be me cutting their deck. you cut with three piles and it doesn't matter if they stacked their cards, the stack will be in a different order and deeper into their library.

We're not talking about people shuffling their OWN deck. We're talking about shuffling your OPPONENT'S deck. That's where people have objections.

[Toad]

I find that most players do a great job of shuffling their deck. I don't worry about those people and I will simply cut the deck. This accounts for over 95% of my matches.

Well I strongly advice you to do quite the opposite.

Intensive shuffling can be used to hide deck stacking, so the more my opponent's shuffle his deck before presenting it to me, the more I will shuffle it as a return. If my opponent presents me his deck without shuffling it at all, I'll just pile shuffle it because that is the best way to turn a potential mana weaving from the opponent against him.

[JACO]

You don't know who you're going to play next until after that person may have set up their deck (between rounds).  It is clear that the best way to prevent a loss due to a set-up is to shuffle your opponent's cards.

That being the case, what are the experiences of TMD users in this regard? What do you find to be the best non-offensive, non-card-destroying method for randomizing your opponent's deck?

Dave, you played against me numerous times, and you'll notice I shuffle all my opponent's decks, even in a casual game. It's just a habit, because I don't know how much they shuffled, and want to make sure both decks are sufficiently randomized every game of every match I play. A few drop riffles plus a 3 group pile-shuffle is good enough for me to make sure my opponent's deck is randomized (even if they stack it like Eddy and Jeff do), and it won't harm their cards.

I don't have any problem picking up an opponent's deck and shuffling it, as the rules afford you this opportunity every time they search their deck (rule 21 of the DCI Universal Tournament Rules), and actually requires you to shuffle an opponent's deck at REL3 or higher tournaments. That being said, I don't do a normal riffle shuffle and am extra careful with any deck of cards. Rule 21 also states that you may request a judge to shuffle instead of your opponent, if you are concerned about their technique or abrasiveness.

[Machinus]

I find that doing that slide shuffle Kerz posted pics of does take some force. I don't buy new sleeves every month and the coeffecients of friction between my played gunmetals and new gunmetals are several times bigger. So it takes some force, and the edges of sleeves get bent. But the cards are not damged at all. I do that kind of shuffle several times after fetching or just shuffling before the round. I always cut after that, and before I usually do a pile shuffle. Seven works the best since I can remember how to get to 60 and it doesn't take up a lot of space, but any prime-to-60 will be just as good. I AM hestitant to let my opponents handle my cards, as they may not have clean hands or the ability to slide well enough. I have really large hands so I don't bend the cards at all while I am doing it. I DO shuffle incessantly though, as anyone who has played me knows. I find that it is sufficient usually to just double or triple cut the opponent's deck if I have seen them doing some kind of quality shuffling before the round. Otherwise I would do side and pile shuffling. I would not want an opponent of mine to slide my cards, and I would not want to slide theirs, unless one of us had new sleeves. Cards are safest in new sleeves as the friction is incredibly low and almost no force gets exerted on the cards as they are being shuffled.

[Addolorisi]

I personally don't like it when an opponents just grabs my deck and starts shuffling. I really don't mind, but i just wish they would ask first. I personally feel like my opponent thinks i'm cheating when s/he does this without asking. So, I think that a little request and light shuffling would be okay. It sucks when your opponent grabs your cards and then just shuffle it like it's their own and it looks to damage your cards.

I ask prior to riffling, but there's no reason for me to ask for permission to pick up your deck and pile/side shuffle it after you've presented it. The more you get offended by that, the more I will assume that you are, in fact, cheating.

On the note of pile shuffling, I never do less than 7 piles. Sure it's a fun idea to potentially screw over someone doing an old-school mana weave, but mana ratios tend to be a good deal higher than in the past, especially in Vintage. I'd rather fully randomize everyone rather than moderately disrupt people's stacking attemps in an attempt to royally screw the few people that still mana wave.

[Guardian]

A way to prevent damaging the cards is to change your sleeves on a regular basis. With time, they become sticky and dirty, and when two sleeves stick together, the cards are gonna bend during regular shuffling and riffle shuffling.

But I find it rude when someone reaches to take my cards to shuffle or just after casting Duress. I will kill you before you can touch it unless I allow it. This is all common sense. I don't mind about cutting, but shuffling is a big no unless I know my opponent.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I cut my opponents deck into successively smaller piles of cards (usually 10-15 short stacks by the end), and then let them pick up the mess.  Its all about the mental game.

Actually, I think cheats is something that can be relatively easy to avoid if you make sure you do more than cut there deck.  The point is to actually deal with individual cards instead of lumps of cards.  Once you've shuffled it at that level, you should be fine.

[Lucentspirit]

When I shuffle my opponents deck (in a serious tournament). The first thing I do is pile shuffle all the cards into three stacks. While I pile shuffle I count the number of cards in their deck (if I count more then 60 I ask to see the number of cards in their side board to make sure they didn't leave an extra card in the main deck). Also while I pile shuffle I look for cards that may be marked.  Then I do a side shuffle like Kerz demonstrated until I feel like the deck is sufficantly randomized (ocationaly I'll split the deck and switch the top with the bottom and continue to shuffle). Finally before I hand the deck back to them I make sure the pile is neat and feel the sides of the cards to make sure all the sleeves are the same length/shape. It's very easy to make one or two sleeves stick out from the rest making a particular card easy to cut to.
       I've won games via this method due to people having the wrong # of cards main deck. I've also never had any complaints from people about handling their cards improperly. It does take a while to go through the whole shuffling routine, but, that is why I only do it when I'm taking a match seriously.

[Mixing Mike]

That is the same thing as a riffle, in the sense that the 2 piles go into each other at about a 1:1 ratio- exept that it DOESN'T destroy your opponent's cards. This is the best way to shuffle, period. That isn't opinion, it's fact.

Wurd.

[savekeeper]

A lot of ppl in this thread complain about their decks being picked up without asking, but isn't this just using common sense? You're opponent presents his deck, thus you're allowed to pick it up and shuffle it till you're satified and give it back. I really don;t see anything wrong with that.

As for my self, I ALWAYS shuffle my opponents deck. He may be a friend, some one I know or a complete stranger but I will always shuffle his deck. It's just a matter of following the rules, defending yourself against cheating and a about not feeling bad if you're opponent gets the god draw.
For the shuffeling itself I almost always will RIFLE shuffle my deck and my opponents one. It's quick, it's good and won't really damage the cards if done gently.

[Mykeatog]

I was looking at my beta power the other day and it turns out it's made out of cardboard.

Riffle Shuffle 3 Lyf.

People who ask me not to shuffle decks I am excessively mean to because; the rules say I can. One time- this dude asked me not to shuffle his cards, so I decided he had valuable cards, and respected his wishes.

I go Turn 1 Negator, he goes...

White Boarder 7th Edition Mountain, White Boarder Lightning Bolt.

owned.

[CrazyCarl]

News flash:  If you suspect/know your opponent "mana weaved", performing a shuffle that will "screw" them is cheating.  You're stacking their deck.  CALL A JUDGE.

But yeah, the over hand shuffle is very nice.  Quick, effective, and safe.  I shuffle a lot, but I play fast so it's ok, I -always- shuffle my opponent's deck, fetchlands, tutors and all.  Three hand over hand, pull a section from the middle, put it on top and then cut and present.

The sad fact is that most Magic players(not just Type 1) have no clue how to shuffle their deck which can either be good or bad for you/them.  When I watch games where one player has very similar draws each game makes me somewhat suspicious, at least if I see it more than one or two rounds.

[Katzby]

This is a topic of great personal interest and concern of mine.  Allow me to share a story.  

About a year ago, I was playing a fully powered Long.dec in a local tournament.  At the start of a later round, my opponent snatched up my deck and began riffling my deck visibly hard.  I said "please be careful" meekly but gave him a look of extreme seriousness, and indeed he started handling my cards a little more gently.  As he was finishing, he dropped a card face down.  He picked it up with one hand, held my deck on the table with his other hand, and tried to very quickly slide the loose card into the middle.  But his angle was bad, and he ended up smashing the card into the side of the deck.  The result was that the card was folded so badly, I could see the crease through the sleeve.  

He didn't say anything and just put the card on the bottom of my deck.  I made up my mind to just keep my cool and hope it wasn't something valuable.  Eventually, I Vampiric Tutored for something and found that the card the asshole ruined was just a Gemstone Mine.  So, I let it go.

I decided shortly after this incident that I was no longer willing to play real power cards in a tournament in just sleeves.  I looked into playing in top loaders, but was not satisfied with this solution for various reasons, despite the fact that a lot of type 1 players see this as an end-all solution.  I have no qualm with actually playing with cards while in top-loaders, as if it would mean perfect preservation I would gladly invest the time to get used to it.  

The problem I have is that cards still have a tendency to slide around in top loaders, even if they are sleeved.  When a card moves around like this, it's still rubbing against stuff and slightly damaging the card.  Put a pack fresh card in a sleeve, put the sleeve in a top loader and shake it as hard as you can.  Take it out after a few minutes and compare it to another pack-fresh card.  I guarantee you will notice the card has a lot less gloss than it used to.  Granted, there aren't a lot of very shiny Moxes out there these days, but if you are not rubbing the gloss off a card, then surely you are slightly scraping off the front.  So, this is not acceptable to me, either.

This thread is a discussion about what can be done about your opponent possibly damaging your cards by simply SHUFFLING it.  But there are still a lot of other ways your cards can get fucked up as a result of the apathy and/or negligence of your opponent.  For example, there are a lot of players that don't put ANY card into play without "snapping" it onto the table.  This phenomenon basically involves playing a card and pushing it against the table with most of your hand, and holding back one corner with your thumb.  Then, when you release your thumb, the corner hits the table with a satisfyingly loud snap.  However, If you do this enough times to a card, you'll cause some permanent bending, even if it's sleeved.  

I assume everyone has experienced people who do this.  To me, it's fine and dandy if people want to do it to their own cards, but I highly resent it when, for example, people snap to the table the five cards I turn over when I Fact or Fiction.  This got on my nerves so badly, I haven't actually handed my cards to my opponent in months and months.  Now, in situations such as this (Duress, Mindslaver, etc.) I just put all my cards face up, facing the opponent on my playmat and hold them down with my fingers so my opponent doesn't think he's allowed to pick them up.  Instead of actually manipulating my cards, I just have him to verbally direct them around.  I probably come across as a major asshole a lot of the time, but in the interest of preserving cards, what choice do I have?

There is a certain class of players that just don't care.  In my experience, it's not as if these people actually want to ruin your cards (as other people on this thread seem to think), but rather that they don't care about the condition of cards.  Not theirs, and certainly not yours.  So they are really rough on all cards that they handle.  And there will probably be players like this forever.  What then, as a community, can we do about these people?

The only reasonable solution I can think of is allowing "proxies."  By this, I don't mean the definition of this word commonly used, as in "proxy-5 tournament" where players play with copies of cards that they don't have.  Instead, I mean that it should just be allowable for you to proxy cards that you really do own, so long as you present the real McCoy at the time you play the copy.  (The real versions would presumably be kept in a screw-down case or top-loader, etc.)  At the start of the tournament you would present your deck, sideboard, and stack of proxied cards.  Can anybody say that this is unreasonable?

In this day and age when proxy tournaments are the type 1 standard (so people play with intentionally fake cards anyway) and nothing is sanctioned anymore, I don't see why this can't be an accepted tournament policy.  In fact, in some recent proxy tournaments I've just been doing this without even asking if it's allowed, and nobody has challenged me on it yet.  Clearly, no discussion of proper shuffling etiquette can ever solve this problem as well as this solution would, so it would be nice if this would somehow catch on.

Katzby

[Smmenen]

The problem with riffle shuffling is that it creates a unique crease on the upper center of the card that no other form of shuffling causes.  I do not allow people to riffle shuffle my deck as there are PLENTY of acceptable ways to shuffle.

As for what Katzby just mentioned, a couple of comments:

1) If you own power or cards that you never part with, I see no problem with being as rough with them as you want to - but this doesn't give you license to do that with other people's cards.

2) as for your proposal - it's flawed from the outset becuase there are stuff like Dual lands which can get nearly to $200 a card.  HOw far would you take your proxy rule?  It would become an administrative nightmare.

[Katzby]

News flash: If you suspect/know your opponent "mana weaved", performing a shuffle that will "screw" them is cheating. You're stacking their deck. CALL A JUDGE.

This is a true.  There was a discussion a few months ago on the dci judges mailing list about this very topic.  After a lot of dissension, it was determined that if you 3-pile shuffle your opponent when you suspect him of mana-weaving, you are cheating, too.

The verdict was that even though you know your opponent is breaking the rules, using that knowledge to manipulate your opponent's deck, to non-randomize it, is in itself a form of cheating on your part.  So, if you see your opponent doing this, just call a judge and get your opponent dq'd instead.  If you 3-pile shuffle, then you both might get dq'd.

While we're on the subject, some people on this thread seem to believe that a solution to having your opponent not rough-shuffle your deck is to call a judge and have him do it.  But this isn't a reasonable solution either, as the typical judge has probably LESS concern for the value/condition of your cards than the typical type 1 player.  He is likely be a little annoyed that you made him squeeze through the aisles for something that he percieves as trivial, and will probably shuffle your deck at least as badly as your opponent will.  Another anecdote:

At the Scourge prerelease type 1 side event a while back, I watched Sheldon Menory eat a slice of pizza (typical judge fuel), get some sauce on his hands.  Mr. Menory did not get out of his seat to wash it off.  Instead, he just wiped his hands a little bit with a napkin, and sat down next to Azhrei's match.

At some point after Azhrei Ancestralled himself, Mr. Menory reached across the table, unsleeved the card and bent it back and forth a few times, nearly end to end.  I gave him a look of total shock, and eventually he turned to me and tried to defend himself by saying "these cards have known to be fake."  However, it wasn't so much the bending that bothered me, it was the fact that when he did this, he STILL had a good amount of pizza sauce on both of his hands.

If I were Azhrei, I would have raised hell, but for some reason he didn't seem to care too much.


Katzby

[Katzby]

2) as for your proposal - it's flawed from the outset becuase there are stuff like Dual lands which can get nearly to $200 a card. HOw far would you take your proxy rule? It would become an administrative nightmare.

I personally have only proxied my own Power 10, but I can't see anything truly wrong with proxying a lot of other cards.  Even if somebody is playing with a lot of proxies, to save time they could just reveal them all at the end of the game or something.  Just like playing with morphs.  

I dunno if it's just me, but risking damage to a Mana Drain or a Workshop doesn't seem as bad as risking damaging an equally valuable restricted card.  The reason being is that if something really catastrophic happens, and a Bazaar or Dual or something get's really messed up, I will at least have 3 acceptable-looking versions left in my deck.  So, I would probably be willing to just live with the fact that 1/4 of my copies looks ugly.

And it seems like I can deal with that a lot better than the thought of looking back with sadness every time I draw my one Mox Ruby and being forced to remember that ALL of the copies of that card got rocked the day somebody spilled some coke on it, or something.

I suspect that the true concern here is that if people spend a lot of time/effort/tears pimping out their deck, they want to actually PLAY with their cards, not some ugly looking print-out.  That's fair and all, but what should this have to do with people who don't care about pimping their cards?  If the solution doesn't work for you, then why oppose it if it will work for others?


Katzby

[Xman]

I personal have had run ins with people before mana weaving and then only shuffling once.  I ask them to shuffle minimum 5 times, politely, btu what are you going to do in a casual game?

Anyway, how do you shuffle if you don't riffle the cards?  I know by taking one pile in a hand and the other pile in the other hand, then shooting cards randomly on the top and bottom of the other pile.

[Komatteru]

The rules do indeed say that you must shuffle your opponents deck.  The current universal tournament rules say

Each time players shuffle their deck, they must present their deck to their opponent for additional shuffling and/or cutting. Players may request to have a judge shuffle their cards rather than pass that duty to their opponent, this request will be honored at a judge’s discretion.
...
At REL 3 and higher events players must always shuffle their opponents’ decks at the beginning of games. The head judge can mandate the shuffling of opponents’ decks at lower RELs (1 and 2) as long as he or she announces this at the beginning of the tournament. If a shuffling effect takes place during gameplay, players may shuffle and must cut their opponents’ decks after the shuffling effect is completed.

There's something in there as well about how you can't complain after you lose about your opponent's deck being stacked, but I couldn't find it.  The rules are written this way so that no one can say "My opponent's deck was stacked I couldn't do anything about it."  You are allowed (and often required) to shuffle by rule, and you're just dumb if you don't take the chance.  You should call the judge if you opponent intervenes in your randomizing process.  That way ensures that both parties are satisfied (we all know that both players are always happy after every decision a judge makes.   )

Personally, I get suspicious when an opponent tells me not to shuffle in a certain way.  It's like saying "you can randomize my deck, but some randomizing methods do too good of a job of ruining my perfect stack job, and I don't want you to use those methods."  I always take great care when I shuffle (being esp. careful not to accidently drop cards, cause that's a violation as well), and am definately way more gentle with my opponent's cards than with my own.  If my opponent is that worried about his card being wrecked, he shouldn't be playing them.

If you feel your opponent is being too rough on your cards, ask him to take it easy.  I was at a tourney playing against some kid (playing burn, burn, burn) and noticed he was being a bit rough on my 4CC deck, so I asked him to "take it easy on the merchandise" and he complied.  He probably didn't really think about how valuable the cards in that deck are.  If you ask your opponent to be gentle, and he's not a total douchebag, he will most likely comply.  Remember that we all have expensive cards and understand that everyone wants opponents to treat their cards like their own.  If you really have a problem with an opponent's shuffling style, call a judge and have him shuffle.  If your opponent is a big douchebag, call a judge.

You risk damaging your cards everytime you play them.  Your shuffling methods are not perfect either, and if your opponent is careful, then his way of shuffling doesn't impose more harm than you do yourself.  If you're that paranoid about wrecking your cards, don't play with them.  I've heard the phrase "pay to play" associated with Magic, and everyone really has to live with that.  When you play with your cards and present them to your opponent, your basically saying, "this is my deck, shuffle it, and take care, but I understand that any shuffling can increase the wear on my cards."

Addition: If your opponent is doing/does things that are obviously negligent and rather likely to cause damage to your cards (greasy pizza hands, Coke near the surface), you should call a judge or TO and get the problem taken care of.  I know I've told an opponent to clean his hands better after eating greasy pizza before touching my cards.  If your opponent does something really stupid that totally wrecks one of your cards, you should find the TO and inform him.  That person should be held responsible for his negligence.

[Meddling Mike]

Hmmm, another one of these discussions, pretty much everything said here has been said here: http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16124&highlight=

[Azhrei]

Pile shuffle into three piles if you suspect a weave, two piles if it's a t1 deck with 28+ mana sources.

Kill them with  math.

[kirdape3]

Darren, that's still grounds for your own cheating.  If I see someone 3-pile shuffle my deck, I'm getting their ass thrown out of the tournament - ESPECIALLY at a higher-level event.  Free wins because my opponent wants to try to be a dick is gas - I'll just go get something to eat.

You HAVE TO give your opponent the opportunity to shuffle your deck, and at REL 3+ (SCG's big events) you HAVE TO actually shuffle your opponent's deck.  Yes, we know it's Type 1 and the cards cost a fortune, so it's nice if your opponent doesn't leave a giant crease in the center.  You still have to give them the shot to do so.  SCG's events are small Grand Prix's and probably should be run at REL 4, but at that point it's a real bitch to play at that high of a level.

[Meddling Mike]

Darren, that's still grounds for your own cheating. If I see someone 3-pile shuffle my deck, I'm getting their ass thrown out of the tournament - ESPECIALLY at a higher-level event. Free wins because my opponent wants to try to be a dick is gas - I'll just go get something to eat.

Have you ever actually tried that? I don't know a judge in the world who would disqualify somebody for 3 pile shuffling your deck at a tourney, especially a type I tourney where not riffle shuffling your opponents cards is considered a courtesy. I'd also like to see any rule that dictates that you can't shuffle your opponents deck in that fashion. If any penalties were given it sure as hell would not be a DQ.

[VarienTanafres]

We're not talking about people shuffling their OWN deck. We're talking about shuffling your OPPONENT'S deck. That's where people have objections.

I know we're talking about shuffling your opponents deck. Let them shuffle their decks, just cut it properly and therefore forgo the problems of shuffling their deck. Cutting does the same in the end result.

[kirdape3]

No, it doesn't.  Check up on your rules.  SCG is run at REL 3 - regardless of it not being a sanctioned event.  At REL 3 you are required to shuffle their deck.  Failure to do so is a Warning, and a second one is a game loss.

[mylkhead]

I really don't like the people that admit to purposely riffle shuffling a persons deck simply because they have power cards.  They say thinks "oh you should see the look on his face..."  And "they're just pieces of cardboard..."  Those are ridiculous arguments.  They are someone property.  Someone paid $600+ for that Lotus.  That is like Keying someone car because they have a Porshe and you have a Toyota.  What right do you have to do that?  You are damaging someone property regardless if you believe it's just.

[Godder]

Studies have been done on decks of playing cards (i.e. 52 cards), and only riffle shuffling randomises a deck in the time given (i.e. 3 minutes). Overhand shuffling takes 20 minutes to randomise a deck, and pile shuffling is a mathematical irrelevance, useful only for counting the number of cards in the deck (10 piles of 6 seems useful), or once or twice before real shuffling to help break mana clumps.

The photographed method is fine, since wrecking sleeves doesn't matter - they can be replaced, after all, and a lot more cheaply than the cards in them. As mentioned, it's the same as riffling. Overhand shuffling needs to be done between each riffle as well.

To not riffle is to cheat. People who can't stand soft riffle shuffling shouldn't play with the cards in question in tournaments.

[Kowal]

Link to these studies.  The method of mashing a side of the deck in to the other side is mathematically identical to riffling, but without the added bonus of being able to watch where the sleeves meet.

[wuaffiliate]

I was looking at my beta power the other day and it turns out it's made out of cardboard.

Riffle Shuffle 3 Lyf.

People who ask me not to shuffle decks I am excessively mean to because; the rules say I can. One time- this dude asked me not to shuffle his cards, so I decided he had valuable cards, and respected his wishes.

I go Turn 1 Negator, he goes...

White Boarder 7th Edition Mountain, White Boarder Lightning Bolt.

owned.

God damn i love seeing you post.