TO's .... Work Together or Compete?

[LunaticFringe]

First, lemme say hello- long time reader, first time poster to TMD.  

Second, I look forward to meeting many of you in the future, as I'm just getting into Vintage, and was planning on going out to Somers today but my playset of Drains didn't arrive on time; like Pern above, I just don't want to roll over and die in a 5 proxy situation...  someone said there was no excuse for anyone in MA not to play in a tourney this weekend, well, he was pretty dead on in that.

Anyways, I see the remarks about not being able to sustain this level of prize support, while folks want the organizers to keep the entry fees down but get some appreciation spread to the top four or so.  I'm wondering, could the players themselves actually provide the support?  As in, having a tournament where you pay $10 or 15 bucks and have to throw in a card of decent value (say, $15- FOW, DOJ, Chrome Mox, etc) as well?  The organizer could get away with something like a Mana Drain as top prize, or a pair of Berzerks (to the top two finishers) or whatnot and the other top players would pick from the pile like the SSG Power 9s.  

I mean, you get 25 people to show up, the top prize is paid off and you've got another $300 in prizes sitting there.

Any thoughts?

[Moxlotus]

Then you're asking them to pay $30 entry fee effectively.  Definitely not cool.

[Purple Hat]

Wow, it's been a real long time since I posted.

Kowal's tournament this weekend, regardless of the reasons for it's scheduling, was how tournaments should be structured in NE.

theres a reason that prize structure based on attendence is a good idea.  It minimizes overall surpluss.  It's economically efficient.  The players don't get screwed by paying lots of money to enter a tournament and then not winning, the TO's don't get screwed by paying lots of money for prizes and having no one show up.

It's cool that bill gave away the prizes even though he lost lots of money.  that rocks.

anyway to quote pern:

I'll pay $10 to playtest my new burn deck against real players all day,
with no chance of winning anything.
Timmy will bring his Elf deck.
$25? Uhhh, no thanks.

Hale

[jazzykat]

Winning $30 in store credit for playing an entire day is not really worthwhile.

I play for fun.

While that is a good reason to play because no one can make a living off winning t1 tournaments, couldn't you play for fun for no prizes?

When I go to a tournament I play for prizes because some of my opponents are not fun to play against. Actually some opponents are plain rude. I also play to do broken things in tournaments.

My old playtest partner was not only a good magic player but he was fun to play against and it cost me nothing.

So I suppose if I wanted to have fun and always play against good competition I would stay home, save my money and playtest with my friend.

That is just my take on things, and I am not flaming you because your statement is elegant in its simplicity but leaves something to be desired in explaining "why"?

[Frappie]

So after talking with Chris Walsh, the owner of The Whiz the next tournament's prize structure will be based on attendance and the prizes will be clear cut. The next question is should the Tournament be $10 or $15. A ten dollar entrance will guarantee less prizes but the tournament will bring in more people. A fifteen dollar entrance cost will mean maybe a few less noobies but better prize structure. Which would you prefer?

As a side note the next Whiz event will be a Ten-proxy event, because thats what people want.

Back to the matter at hand. So now that its clear that Kowal ran a killer event(1), was it the prize structure, the cost, or something different, like revenge.

This begs the next question, should all future T1 events be run like this past one?

Still fucking pissed about this weekend. Still hate everybody equally.

(1) Killer in two ways, one I wish that it was on a different day as I so would have been there, and two because it killed all the other tournaments in the area. Kowal I highly suggest you call your tournaments something different like Another 187 brought to you in Hadley, or a Hadley 187.

[Kowal]

I think the reason hadley did so well is because of the ten dollar thing.  People are sick and tired of paying $15, $20, or even $25 for prize structures that aren't amazing.

I think that's what owned Lenox, really.  Who wants to spend $25 to play for an ancestral?  His prize structure was worth less than a hundred dollars more than mine, and he was charging more than twice as much.  This is just bad planning, and I'm sure he'll be organizing much better events in the future.

[ctthespian]

I think the reason hadley did so well is because of the ten dollar thing.  People are sick and tired of paying $15, $20, or even $25 for prize structures that aren't amazing.

I think that's what owned Lenox, really.  Who wants to spend $25 to play for an ancestral?  His prize structure was worth less than a hundred dollars more than mine, and he was charging more than twice as much.  This is just bad planning, and I'm sure he'll be organizing much better events in the future.

Ancestral, Itl. Drain, Nether Void, Mana Crypt are worth less than a mox, drain and berserk?  That's not including the 8 packs of BB forigen stuff that was set for 5-8th.

As far as the higher entrance fee next month is $20 for a mox with prizes through 8th at Lenox.  If Lenox gets 50 poeple you still will have a better chance to walk out with a prize worth more than your entrance fee than the 41 that showed up to Hadley this weekend.  I'd agree that a $15-$25 dollar tourny with prizes based upon attendance isn't a good deal.  But with prizes set top 8 for $20 is a better deal.

-Keith

[Kowal]

Keith, re-read what I read.  You read it wrong.  I said the difference was less than a hundred dollars.

But I think the 41 people that showed up to Hadley proves that people would rather pay a lot less than they have to to play for prizes, regardless of the prize structure.  It convinces people to try out ideas that they haven't before, or to make trips when the money is tight.  It also leaves people feeling less cheated if they scrub out.

All weekend I got positive feedback on both the cost and the start time.  Though the latter is certainly not set in stone, I appreciate hearing from the people that made the trip, and I sincerely apologize to Frappie for getting The Whiz caught in the crossfire of an argument I stopped caring about over a week ago.

[jpmeyer]

The conflicting Hadley/Lenox tournament (as well as Endicott/Lenox) shows that you really can't have tournies on the same day as a way of competing because the total player pool is too low.  There were 50 people total (well 49 but I like rounding) at the tournies last weekend and about 120 the other weekend.  If you had 25 at each, neither can break even with just a Mox if they only charge $10.  Even if you move up to $15, you're only really just breaking even on a Mox so you can't even really offer a 2nd place prize other than maybe a couple draft sets.  If there were say, 100 people in that player pool, I could see competition working, but as it is now there are so few people to work with that TO's need to win almost everyone that plans on playing that week.  And since you're working with a small player base, there is a pretty low ceiling for you in terms of prizes to give out.

[ctthespian]

Oh Ben stop it about this "I stopped caring crap."   Reguardless of whether you did stop caring or not you set the date with the intention of going up against Lenox.  A hypocrytical move considering you were all bent out of shape when Lenox supposedly set their date to compete with Endicot.

I'm going to stop arguing the point of how Lenox was not in the wrong with holding it's first event.  Or the fact that Somers came under the same fire from Zherbus and others when their first event was set up.  Again both of these events tried posting information on the boards well after their dates were already set.  Not to mention that both events were multiple hours away from each other.

The fact remians the Ben set his event to go up against Bill's tournament in Lenox.  Hadley hasn't had events in months and Ben could have waited but he didn't out of spite.  Players that attended Hadley would have surely come to Lenox otherwise and Bills event would have been a success.  Now after the next two months I won't be suprised if Bill does not host events again in the coming year.

-Keith

[Kowal]

Keith, I haven't disagreed with anything you just said.  Why the hell are you repeating it so much?

I think this thread has reached its climax.  I'm going to go ahead and lock it.  If there's any reason at all to re-open it, please go ahead and send me a PM and I'll do so.  Any arguments that are directed solely at me or other TOs should be contained to PMs anyway.