[discussion] what to name with cranial extraction

[orgcandman]

Recently I've begun seriously testing cranial extraction in 4cC. I've been trying to get the exact cards to name correct, and am fairly confident that I've come up with a "starter" list. However, I'm interested in seeing what other people who have tested think, and where any deviations lie.

Against DeathLong:
* Death Wish - I don't know that this really needs explanation, as it's the core of the deck. The problem is, they still go off through this, but it's usually an uphill battle.

* Dark Ritual - This may need an explanation. DeathLong functions off broken mana sources. The most common mana source they use is dark ritual, and without access to this, they can be stalled out rather quickly. I don't know which one is more important to name of these two, but I suspect that would depend on the game state.


Against Control Slavery:
* Mana Drain - This cuts them off a huge mana supply. If you can resolve this with force backup, you're probably in a good position. I don't know whether or not this is the most important early spell to name

* Mindslaver/Pentavus - I don't know how important these are to name. Pentavus will usually eat a swords if slaver recursion hasn't started. Naming slaver is good enough if it's not already in the yard, but it's tough to get this consistently early enough to do

* Welder - Testing so far has shown that this is an ok card to name, but usually they'll have one down already, and all they need is one. Still, this isn't neccessarily a bad thing.


Against the Mirror:
I think the bombs you could and should name are:
* Skeletal Scrying
* Mana Drain
* Crucible (?)
* Exalted Angel
* Decree of Justice
* BALANCE

Of these, I think mana drain is the most important to name.


Against fish:
This card is bad vs. fish. Don't run it.

Against mono-U:
If you can get this to resolve, morphling, ouphidian, and powder keg are all great targets. I haven't done enough testing with this matchup to really know any others though.

Against Landstill:
* Mana Drain (notice a recuring theme) - Stop their development cold. That or standstill, although you can play around standstill.

* Nevinyrral's Disk - Board clearing really hurts 4cC. This is a solid card to name.

Against Dragon:
The problem with using this card vs. dragon (as is the problem with using any card vs. dragon) is the threat of necromancy. However, getting this to
resolve against either necromancy OR dragon is of the utmost importance.
Should you resolve this on either of those targets, I think the game has
swung significantly in your favor.


The decks I haven't done testing against (and thus, would like some input on) are Belcher, FCG, and most artifact fat decks. Anyone with any testing results at all, please feel free to fill in the gaps, and if you have questions
about my testing results, feel free to ask away.

[MooSE]

Aginst FCG it really depends on what they're doing.  If they're going the beatdown route, then goblin piledriver would be my choice...actually either way piledriver is a good call because it's the biggest source of damage.  It would be tough...not impossible, but tough to kill the opponent without them.

Goblin Ringleader would also be a good call, because they can't combo off without it.

Food Chain wouldn't be my first pick.  All food chain does is allow them the mana to combo off.  Without it they can still como off...in a sence just using warchief, and a couple piledrivers and drawing it all with ringleader.

So...Goblin Ringleader, or Goblin Piledriver.

[Hyperion]

I'd think Thirst for Knowledge is a card to consider Extracting against Control Slaver (assuming a Welder is already in play). It simultaneously makes their Welders worse and takes away their ability to oudraw you. I suppose Blood Moon is a good card to name too if you happen to know they are running it.

Against monoblue, isn't Back to Basics their most crippling card against you? Why wouldn't you name that?

[Karn, Mox Golem]

If you can get a CE to rersolve against MonoU why wouldnt you name morphling?  Its the decks only serious win condition(20 turn clock is not a serious win condition), they only have 2, and they usually wait until they have like 10 land to drop him...

[JDawg13]

The problem with naming Morphling is that they CAN in fact wait to kill you with Ophidian, or failing that, the mono-blue player can just get down a B2B and wait to deck you.  Decking is a viable win condition for mono-blue in the first game of a 50-minute round.

[orgcandman]

re: extraction against mono-u for b2b
Well, I actually play a single island, so I'm usually all set if I've gotten a sol ring down already. also, mono-u pretty much rolls over and dies without 'phling. A 20 turn clock doesn't scare me if I know I can punch through the counter wall and drop a balance. Also, cycling decree is a great way of outracing mono-u's leftover clock.

As always, I guess I should re-test with b2b named, as I played the fewest number of games vs. mono-u.

re: thirst
I am shocked at myself for not testing extraction for this card. I'll have to get on it. I guess I really just went for the more obv. ones against CS. I really need to do better testing I guess.

re: food chain gobbos
I'm not just looking for suggestions, but whether or not extraction would be good in the matchup at all. I already know it's decent in CS, great vs. Dragon, excellent vs. Mirror, and DeathLong becomes much easier. The jury is still out on landstill and mono-u (as I said, I didn't test much vs. mono-u). If you're going to include a deck I haven't listed, it would be great to have testing behind it to be able to say "It's unfavorable, but the best cards to name are X, Y, and/or Z. The reason why..." etc..

Thanks for the comments guys.

[Shaman]

First of all, I have to say I do not have a Keeperish-style deck (4CControl) so I have not tested Crainial Extraction in this archetype. Anyway, my considerations about Crainal Extraction are the following, and I hope to be of any help.

So far I have been testing Cranial Extraction as a sideboard card in my TPS UB, in order to get the most from it against the mirror (here in Italy we don't have LongDeath, due to the large amount of MW-based decks, so the real combo to fear is only TPS) and against Dragon. My tests prove this new card from CHK to be rather strong in this scenarios: against the mirror, naming Tendrils of Agony, they have only one or two alternative ways of winning, and both are not so easy to achieve: Colossus (if they side it in) and Cunning Wish (via Brain Freeze); against Dragon, a good call (Worldgorger, usually) slows them down a lot, preventing them from getting the combo going on, and you only have to fear Verdant Forces or some other sideboard tech.

Against the other decks that has been mentioned before (ControlSlavery, 4CControl, Fish, etc.), I do see the value of Cranial Extraction in a deck like 4CControl, but not in mine. So I leave to others commenting those results and considerations.

My general feeling about this card however is that it can be really, really strong against a deck you do not have considered and that is going to be a real pain in the near future: T1T, the recent evolution of Hulk Smash. Here in Europe that deck is going to get more and more played. Name Psychatog and you basically win.

[Toad]

If you can get a CE to rersolve against MonoU why wouldnt you name morphling?  Its the decks only serious win condition(20 turn clock is not a serious win condition), they only have 2, and they usually wait until they have like 10 land to drop him...

Actually I've been playing MonoU without any Morphlings for quite a long time last year and It has never been a problem. You either win by swinging with multiple Ophidians or by showing a hand containing like 7 counterspells to the opponent when he's locked under B2B. Concession exists.

I would probably name Ophidian against MonoU (or obviously B2B if I die to it) because a control deck with no draw engine will not control the game for long.

[orgcandman]

I would probably name Ophidian against MonoU (or obviously B2B if I die to it) because a control deck with no draw engine will not control the game for long.

Yeah, that seems like a great call....the only reason I called powder keg first is because I usually try to cycle decree ASAP and get 2-3 guys to start the mad beatz. B2B seems like a natural card choice as does ouphidian (the first thing I was naming with these).

[freakish777]

Against Food Chain Goblins I would name Goblin Recruiter.

He is useful to them whether they get the Food Chain or not and denying them the ability to stack their deck is somewhat powerful and limits their options.  They can't combo out as effectively, and they can't necessarily go the beat down route if they didn't already have it in their hand, as they are in Topdeck mode (the downside of this is that they run something along the lines of 30 goblins, so they have about a 50/50 chance of getting something useful for attacking you with, but its the fact that they didn't get that Seige-Gang Commander they needed to go with the Piledriver, or vice versa).

I'm not entirely sure though whether or not this worth boarding in a cranial extraction against FCG for.  You have access to F/I, BEB if its in you're board, Balance, Swords, FoW, etc... I'd think 4CC would already have a handle on that match-up.

[DEA]

i personally would go for the warchief
it doesn't stop their combo, but it gives you a turn to find answers to their army, and they can't do the sharpshooter combo even if they have food chain out
even if you remove recruiters you will see warchief -> piledriver -> piledriver -> swing for 23 pts

[orgcandman]

if this is going to turn into a "OMG Cranial Extraction in FCG!!!!!!11111one~~" discussion, then I think it will be straying way off topic. I've done some quick testing and found that Cranial Extraction is NOT the card to use in this matchup. It's just too slow at 4cc and it minutely affects their ability to just go drop 123498792345 goblins and win. The correct cards to use in this matchup are a combination of FTKs, Fire/Ice, and StP.

This is more to see where 4cC (or any other deck that may end up playing CE) would benefit most from CE. If this topic strays off topic anymore, I'm going to ask that it be closed.

[DEA]

why is any of this off topic?
you asked what to name with extraction
we answered
you didn't ask if extraction is a viable card to use against certain matchups
get this thread closed if you like, but i don't see the point of your last post

[Apollyon]

I'm pretty sure that it's implied that this is a discussion on what to name with Extraction in matchups where CE is optimal. All of the discussion so far as been discussing using CE to cripple what would otherwise be relatively bad matchups, not what you would use CE for when CE is the suboptimal choice.

Stating that you name Disrupting Scepter or Jayemdae Tome against old-school Weissman Control is off-topic, because no one plays Weissman Control any more. Nor would it be optimal to bring in CE against Weissman Control, since they have too many highlander cards.

[Meddling Mike]

I think this discussion is pretty much a moot point, anything that you name with cranial extraction will either be a painfully obvious choice or will depend on the situation. If you're playing vs.  a welder based deck and they have yet to drop a welder then naming welder is obviously correct, if you have readily available answers to their welder on the table and feel confident that you can remove it, then welder is still probably the right choice. My point is that different situations will call for different uses of the extraction. I also have yet to see any deck featuring cranial extraction achieving any measure of success so this discussion may be without merit on that front as well.