[Brainstorming] Perfecting Tendrils combo builds.

[rozetta]

In this thead, I hope to start some productive brainstorming discussion on Tendrils-based combo decks. I believe a Tendrils deck somewhere in-between the current "known" builds (DeathLong, Draw7, TPS) might actually be offer a more optimal build than the current ones, and I want to somehow explore that possibility.

The reason I started on this line of thought was after piloting a Death Wish-based Tendrils deck in a recent type 1 tournament. After thinking back over my experiences with the deck, I came to the conclusion that the Death Wishes were not a useful as I initially thought:

the mana cost, especially the double-black really makes this a prohibitively-costed tutor. You do not want to expend a one-shot mana source as precious as Dark Ritual or Black Lotus to retrieve an answer in most cases, even preemptively, since it might make the difference between going off now or having to wait more turns in which you are losing the initiative.

the life cost of the spell makes this prohibitive for getting answers against most damage-dealing decks. This is most apparent in a matchup such as Fish. Although the clock Fish can put you on is not very fast, it's tempo-based nature makes the situation really difficult to wish-for and cast an answer on the same turn. In this case, losing half of your life is often too much of the buffer you would nornally need for going off. As an aside, the life loss has bad syngery with Necro and Bargain, two of the most powerful spells in the deck, and can possibly lock you out from using City of Brass, if you drew enough of them.
 
a first turn win involving enough rituals and Yawgmoth's Will, with all the relevant other pieces in place is extremely low probability anyway.  I think I've seen this win as much in Belcher with maindeck Tendrils as I have with Death Wish-based decks, where the chances of getting the Yawgmoth's Will were "increased" by the Death Wishes themselves. Again, it goes back to the slightly prohibitive cost of the tutor itself.

To summarize, it really doesn't feel like Death Wish has anything more than a minor resemblance to the Burning Wish we saw in long.dec. The dynamics are just not there and it ends up as a clunky spin-off. In goldfishing, the card seems better than it is in real-world play, and play against any deck that would give DeathLong trouble and you'll see what I mean about Death Wish. You just don't want to see it very often at all.

Now, Draw7.dec had an interesting idea - keep refilling your hand, dropping acceleration and you'll eventually get into a broken situation where you'll win. The already stated downside to this plan is the fact that you're constantly refilling the opponent's hand, and you're very dependent on the luck factor that comes with a draw-7. DeathLong takes a similar deck design principal and moves it in a direction away from benefiting the opponent too much.

TPS takes combo into a slower, more control-based direction. It essentially tries to iron out weaknesses in combo by doubling the amount of protection and increasing the land count. The only experience I've had with this deck is goldfishing, and it was noticeable how much less effective the draw-7s were when the deck contains a lower density of "bombs" and acceleration.

What this analysis essentially boils down to is that the basic skeleton we have for Tendrils decks works, for all intents and purposes, in a similar enough way regardless of the "additional" cards we add.

This is the basic core:

Mana: 28
10 5-color lands (CoB, Gemstone Mine, Forbidden Orchard, etc.)
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Chrome Mox
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
4 Dark Ritual

Broken: 17
4 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Tinker
1 Timetwister
1 Memory Jar
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Mind's Desire
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Win: 2
2 Tendrils of Agony

This is a total of 47 cards. I did not include Demonic Consultation or Time Walk, since they may or may not make it into builds.

From our last 13 cards, we can choose:
extra mana sources or acceleration (Fastbond, Crop Rotation, ESG, etc). Note there should be at least 30 sources, so 2 of the 13 "miscellaneous" cards will be mana
tutors (Consult, Spoils, Wishes, Regrowth, Peer Through Depths, etc.)
card draw (Diminishing Returns, Time Spiral, Frantic Search etc.)
protection or answers (Duress, FoW, Xantid Swarm, Rebuild, etc.) - these will make up at least 4 of the 13

Note that Belcher and TPS can be seen as a slight variants of this concept, even though they don't share this exact base.

The plain fact is that any deck containing the 12 or 13 artifact accelerants, 4 Dark Rituals, Demonic Tutor and Yawgmoth's Will can get a certain percentage (albeit small) of turn 1 wins with the simple multiple ritual + tutor opening hand.

What I propose is that these last 13 cards are examined more closely. What can be introduced into the deck to create the most reliable possible build?

Here are some thoughts to consider:

The problem cards against this sort of deck are:
 Null Rod, Trinisphere, CotV, Sphere of Resistance (taken care of with FoW > Bounce > Duress)
 permission (taken care of with Xantid Swarm > Duress > FoW)
 random others (Meddling Mage, Arcane Lab, Rule of Law, etc)

We should consider the first two sets of threats most relevant, with, perhaps, the first set of threats being the worst, since one can always push through a counter wall, whereas a resolved Trinisphere must be dealt with directly.

What cards or combinations of cards do best at speeding the deck up?
- more fast mana sources?
- cheap but dangerous tutors (consult, etc.)?
- card draw?

As a general rule, a faster deck will need more fast mana sources (and possibly mana-fixing like Pentad Prism) to go off, but there becomes a point where the number of mana sources and fixers is so high that the threat density is not enough to overcome stall-outs in control matchups.

Does the deck need more bombs like Time Spiral, Future Sight, etc? If more high-priced bombs are added, can they be consistently cast? Does the deck want to move into a direction of higher threat count, but slower goldfish?

I think there is still a lot of untapped potential in this family of decks despite the fact that the number of slots in the deck to really play with is relatively low. I'm hoping we can come up with some good ideas.

[Shaman]

Good work, I am really interested in this topic and I'll keep my eyes upon it. I really appreciate your brief analisys and I agrre with your conclusions. The only point I have to stress out in this brainstorming is that combo-builds of tendrils-based-decks are probably much more metagame-dependant than any other T1 deck. I will explain my statement.

I used to play 4 (even 5, the mana base was the same) color TPS, and my list was something like the following (obvious things omitted):

mana: 4 gemstone, 4 cob, 2 delta, 3 sea, 5 mox, 1 petal, 1 otus, 1 vault, 1 crypt, 4 rituals

protection: 4 duress, 4 fow, 1 rebuild, 1 chain (1 echoing truth)

draw7: wheel, twister, windfall

So I did not run consultation, crop rotation, LED, chrome mox (some of the other broken things you listed above). I considered anyway my list to be rather good, and with that list I and many other people here in Italy achieved good results, since it was really strong against a huge part of the field.

One day, sadly, people here in Italy started playing mono brown or however artifact based decks: this means at least 4 trinisphere, very often 4 sphere of resistance, 4 tangle wire, 4 smokestack, 2 or 3 crucible...nowadays, when you go to a big tournament, you would surely face one of this deck (or a deck very similar to this, based on an heavy and fast lock) twice or thrice in a 7 round swiss, expecially if you play in the high tables.

In this metagame, running the deck I used to run before is quite dangerous...I would say VERY dangerous. As a matter of fact, you cannot compete against turn one trinisphere or a turn one crucible WITHOUT force of will, so they are a must in the Italian metagame, I would say. So they are a natural and necessary inclusion. Sadly, a colorful but fragile mana base is another weak point: from this statement many players started playing basics, and so here you are the TPS ( UB mana base )deck.

Obviously TPS UB is much more a control deck if compared to draw7 or even the 4 color TPS, but it is a combo deck that is reliable enough to compete in our current metagame: the others are not.

If we talk about goldfishing, yeah, many other decks are stronger. But we are talking about the BEST build of the deck, not the FASTER.

I would be very cautios in considering one deck as the best over one other, as it is only a metagame call.

[Team-Judgement]

In westen denmark, where i live, there is usually around 7-10 Workshop based decks, stax or workshop aggro. This means that the odds of not getting paired against a workshop deck are very small. This means that if you play TPS you should put even more anti artifact stuff into your deck. But i thought that it was common sense to run basics in TPS. TPS is U/B and doesnt need any other color of mana, and against workshop based deck you will have a hard time getting back from turn 1 trinisphere if all you lands are waste able, its also alot easier to kill you with a soft lock. They can both make 3sphere+crucible og 3sphere+smokestack

In Rozatta's list there is 1 NON blue or black spell, so why do you run 10 5-color lands instead of 4 fechtes, 2 island, 2 swamps and 2 sea. I dont think ruining your mana base for a wheel of fortune is a good idea

And i dont think xantid swarms are that important, when you got both 4 duress and 4 forces

My 30 Mana sources

4 Delta
2 Island
2 Swamps
2 Sea
5 Moxen
1 Lotus
1 Petal
1 Sol ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
4 Rituals
1 Tolarian academy
1 Chrome Mox
1 LED
3 ESG - Which are brilliant against workshop decks

Note i also play 2 hurkylls recall, 1 chain of vapor and 1 rebuild

[carlossb]

Now, Draw7.dec had an interesting idea - keep refilling your hand, dropping acceleration and you'll eventually get into a broken situation where you'll win. The already stated downside to this plan is the fact that you're constantly refilling the opponent's hand, and you're very dependent on the luck factor that comes with a draw-7. DeathLong takes a similar deck design principal and moves it in a direction away from benefiting the opponent too much.

There´s one powerful/unrestricted card to draw cards only yourself, Recycle

From our last 13 cards, we can choose:
extra mana sources or acceleration (Fastbond, Crop Rotation, ESG, etc).

If we´re trying the green way with the Recycle, Elvish Spirit Guide are a must.
Channel is one of the best cards in Belcher decks. Why not try it here?

Carlos

[Godot]

a first turn win involving enough rituals and Yawgmoth's Will, with all the relevant other pieces in place is extremely low probability anyway.

To summarize, it really doesn't feel like Death Wish has anything more than a minor resemblance to the Burning Wish we saw in long.dec.

Maybe Im just reading into this too much but it sounds like you're expecting Deathlong to function too much like Long.  They have similarities but Deathlong is a different animal.  As for the speed, the deck goldfishes turn 1 quite easily, but in actual matches I rarely even consider the turn 1 win.  Turn 1 is used to set up--Duress, BS, tutor for what you need to win, etc.  If you expect it function at a level near that of Long you're going to be disappointed.

The only experience I've had with this deck is goldfishing, and it was noticeable how much less effective the draw-7s were when the deck contains a lower density of "bombs" and acceleration.

I would just like to say that while I love TPS in principle--BASIK LANDS IN STORM OMGOMGOMG!!1!!1!--in practice I've just found the deck to be weak.  The deck is so diluted with protection and mana that not only does it weaken its card draw in general as you said, but it also weakens the decks bombs.  In my experience a Minds Desire for anything short of ~10 is weak sauce and the deck has a strong possibility of fizzling.

Null Rod, Trinisphere, CotV, Sphere of Resistance

Just wanted to mention that Wasteland should be listed with these.  Wasteland backed up by other disruption(or vice versa) is horribly annoying when you only run 10 land.  If you're taking this deck in a more control direction, similar to TPS, then you should definitely be running some basic lands.

card draw (Diminishing Returns, Time Spiral, Frantic Search etc.)

Does the deck need more bombs like Time Spiral, Future Sight, etc?

The problem with adding more bombs/card draw is that the best cards left to add(at least that I can think of at the moment) are all blue and Ritual doesnt give you blue.  Getting UU or UUU to cast these things is not always easy--especially when your entire manabase is suseptable to Wastes.  I'd almost add Nights Whispers or Infernal Contract before I'd add things like Diminishing Returns or Future Sight.  They're clearly not as powerful, but you'll be able to cast them much more reliably.

Considering this, and working from the skeleton you laid out, I think the strongest option is adding more tutors--namely Wishes.  They're the color in which you're most likely to have excesses of mana and are guaranteed to get you cards that win the game.


It basically comes down to metagame considerations.  If you play in an area with lots of 'shops and wastes then you play TPS, but if you're area has a dearth of 'shops then Deathlong is the better storm deck.  It seems like what you are trying to do is create a middle of the road deck--basically the storm combo verion of Keeper.  While it wont be weak, its by no means as strong as the other options available given metagame considerations.

EDIT: Grammar

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

If we´re trying the green way with the Recycle, Elvish Spirit Guide are a must.
Channel is one of the best cards in Belcher decks. Why not try it here?
Carlos

1: Recycle sucks; it costs as much as desire/bargain and doesn't make you win instantly.  It's also had to cast with GG.

2: Storm combo decks don't want to spend 2 precious coloured mana to get lots of colourless mana.... In belcher it is good but not in storm combo.

Now, as for the breakdown, I think looking at the core and mana base is a good idea, but as for the mana base part it is not prefect because the addional cards you add will obviously have an effect on the mana base.

As for consultation, I think it's too good not to be run; it should be part of the cards automatically included.  Even consultation ritual/brainstorm is good, and the ability to act as an instant speed tutor for numerous broken cards in your deck is just awesome.  It can also be used to find answers, such as consultation for hurkly's/fow, etc.

Now, I really like fow alot, considering it is arguably THE best card in our format, but the reason why it was cut in Meandeath is a sound one- pitching a card to fow dilutes your threat density.  The only card you will probably even be happy to pich is another fow.  The restricted blue bombs, and brainstorms, are all terrible things to pitch, and why use fow if pitching to it isn't something you don't want to do?  Lets think about what kind of things you want to fow most frequently: null rod, trinisphere, mana drain, fow.  I may have missed a few things, but the point is that the things that you worry about fowing most often can usually be taken care of via: 1: Artifact bounce, or 2: Duress.  The case being that rod/sp3re can come down before you can duress your opponent, but that mana drain/fow you can duress at your lesure.  So, I propose that istead of fow it is possible to simply use more artifact bounce md (remember they can simply up your storm count in addition to dealing with things) and duress.

Now, this assumes that you are trying to make storm combo deck that tries to incorperate some element of diruption instead of simply using pure speed to overcome its opponent.  I think, however , that it is safe to say that the only viable method with the pure speed route is belcher, and that tendrils combo should automatically incorperate some element of disruption, and that for the current meta duress and artifact bounce are the best disruption.  (This is meta dependant but I would probably feel safest with 4 duress and 3-4 artifact bounce at varying cc)

One concept I think that hasn't been mentioned is the "plan B".  Now, obviously in the rainbow mana base we have hardcast ESG beatsticks as a plan B alternative if we include ESG as fast mana, but it's also probably safe to say that this is rarely effective.  We should probably mention tinker/colossus as an alterate path to victory against aggro decks.  The problems with him being: 1: Most control decks can answer the colossus and without fow he is difficult to protect. 2: most combo decks can try to race the colossus and you have expended resources in tinkering him out
3: he sucks when drawn and for most pratical purposes cannot be hardcast.  Advantages: 1: aggro or aggro/cntrol has few anwers for him and cannot race 2: Immune to stifle 3: It's usually easier to tinker a colossus out that to combo out, barring brokeness suck as ncero/bargain, etc.  I conclude that the weaknesses are inferior to the strengths, as colossus is useful against a very limited variety of decks.  Thus, although a good sideboard option against aggro or aggro/control, he is not maindeck material.  So, unfourtunately there is no plan B barring ESG that I can think of being worth inclusion.

Another matter we need to discuss is 1 tendrils vs 2 tendrils.  Obviously 1 tendrils streamlines the deck more and results tendrils cluttering your hand less frequently, while 2 provides security incase 1 is duressed/stifled or you must use 1 as a mini tendrils to help stay alive vs aggro.  In Meandeath there is 1 sbed and 1 md.  I myself would not feel secure in my win condition with only 1 tendrils, epecially since we have not yet incoperated a plan B to speak of.  Snce we havn't incorpated the wishes I conclude that 2 tendrils is the way to go.

Due to the popularity of workshop decks, and the problems they can give storm combo, I think that a mana base incorperating basics would be preferable if possble.  This helps to deal with not only with wasteland or wasteland+crucible, but also B2b and blood moon (b2b is another big issue due to the rise of mono-U, while blood moon is quite rare other than in control slaver lists/sbs.

As for a start on some of the extra 13 cards, IMO: 9:
4 duress
2 hurkly's
1 rebuild
1 chain of vapour
1 demonic consulation (I think this is an auto-include actually)

About the combination of bounce: I like hurkly's because of the low cc dealing with all artifacts on the opponent's board or upping your storm count(hence 2).  The rebuild is so you have a bounce sweeper at a different cc, and possibly could also act yo up storm count while sweeping opponent's board at the same time.  The chain is probably the weakest as it only hits 1 target and the mosy common thing to chalice for against you is probably 1, but it has the advantage of hitting anything (from WGD to ivory mask), and is thus probably the most veratile answer.

The rest I think could be left up to preferance: land vs ESG is based on how fast vs stable you want the deck's mana to be.  Other cards depend on how you alter the mana base as well.

[rozetta]

The points about bringing the manabase down to U/B are somewhat pertinent  - it does strengthen the mana base against wastes and provides shuffle effects to complement Brainstorm.

I think the greatest downfall of losing the multicoloured base is the loss of Wheel of Fortune. Windfall is really very conditional - it's only normally good after another draw7. Therefore, removing one of the three good draw7s (twister, wheel and jar being the 3), you now weaken the strength of Windfall. A secondary downfall is that Xantid Swarm is a whole lot better than Duress versus control, especially since it might punish them for taking creature removal out game  2.

As far as goldfish speed goes, I'm not looking specifically for a turn 1 deck. Deathlong, as it stands, is at the correct speed level - turn 2-3 kills after a turn 1 setup, and it plays well that way. What I'm really trying to address is that, with a core roughly shaped as we have now (give or take manabase considerations, since they're obviously more important than I first gave them credit), can we come up with something more consitent than DeathLong, but faster than TPS (a sort of in-between).

I tend to agree that a maindeck containing 6 or 7 disruption spells - bounce and duress seems to be the best way to go in a meta where Workshops are expected.

My point regarding the possibility of adding extra bombs was this - if I'm going to spend some setup (duress) and mana acceleration (petal, lotus, etc.) to cast something "big" (whether it be bargain, desire or death wish->yawgmoth's will) it should put me either in a strong winning position or win the game right there. Note that no particular spell is guaranteed to win the game on the spot - you could flip lands and moxes with desire or  draw the same thing off your first 15 cards with bargain.

The problem is that the already not-included bombs (such as Time Spiral) are on the expensive side. The reason I included Future Sight on this list as an example was because even if you spend a turn casting it, you are in a very much stronger position to win the following turn (in the same way that you might tap out to cast a bargain and pass the turn to untap and then start drawing cards). This is a reason I don't consider Infernal Contract or Night's Whisper as being in the same category (and therefore possibilities for inclusion). Your mana (especially coloured mana) is a precious resource in this sort of deck and it's a waste to spend it on anything that does not have a powerful enough effect (or disruption). I guess the ultimate question is: does card x have a powerful enough effect to be worth spending some setup to cast? If it does, it might be worth consideration. Remember that Necro (albeit an easier spell to cast) does not win the you game on the spot either.

I'd agree that Tendrils could be as a one or two-of. I included 2 in the example base, since we don't have alternative ways of fetching it. I know some TPS builds can run 1, freeing up another slot for something else.

On the issue of FoW, I'm in more of a similar frame of mind as Gandalf - it's going to waste precious resources to use, not to mention impose deck-building constraints. Pitching anything blue other than another FoW is going to cost you in terms of critical mass for going off in a great deal of situations.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

The points about bringing the manabase down to U/B are somewhat pertinent  - it does strengthen the mana base against wastes and provides shuffle effects to complement Brainstorm.

I think the greatest downfall of losing the multicoloured base is the loss of Wheel of Fortune. Windfall is really very conditional - it's only normally good after another draw7. Therefore, removing one of the three good draw7s (twister, wheel and jar being the 3), you now weaken the strength of Windfall. A secondary downfall is that Xantid Swarm is a whole lot better than Duress versus control, especially since it might punish them for taking creature removal out game  2.

As far as goldfish speed goes, I'm not looking specifically for a turn 1 deck. Deathlong, as it stands, is at the correct speed level - turn 2-3 kills after a turn 1 setup, and it plays well that way. What I'm really trying to address is that, with a core roughly shaped as we have now (give or take manabase considerations, since they're obviously more important than I first gave them credit), can we come up with something more consitent than DeathLong, but faster than TPS (a sort of in-between).

I tend to agree that a maindeck containing 6 or 7 disruption spells - bounce and duress seems to be the best way to go in a meta where Workshops are expected.

My point regarding the possibility of adding extra bombs was this - if I'm going to spend some setup (duress) and mana acceleration (petal, lotus, etc.) to cast something "big" (whether it be bargain, desire or death wish->yawgmoth's will) it should put me either in a strong winning position or win the game right there. Note that no particular spell is guaranteed to win the game on the spot - you could flip lands and moxes with desire or  draw the same thing off your first 15 cards with bargain.

The problem is that the already not-included bombs (such as Time Spiral) are on the expensive side. The reason I included Future Sight on this list as an example was because even if you spend a turn casting it, you are in a very much stronger position to win the following turn (in the same way that you might tap out to cast a bargain and pass the turn to untap and then start drawing cards). This is a reason I don't consider Infernal Contract or Night's Whisper as being in the same category (and therefore possibilities for inclusion). Your mana (especially coloured mana) is a precious resource in this sort of deck and it's a waste to spend it on anything that does not have a powerful enough effect (or disruption). I guess the ultimate question is: does card x have a powerful enough effect to be worth spending some setup to cast? If it does, it might be worth consideration. Remember that Necro (albeit an easier spell to cast) does not win the you game on the spot either.

I'd agree that Tendrils could be as a one or two-of. I included 2 in the example base, since we don't have alternative ways of fetching it. I know some TPS builds can run 1, freeing up another slot for something else.

On the issue of FoW, I'm in more of a similar frame of mind as Gandalf - it's going to waste precious resources to use, not to mention impose deck-building constraints. Pitching anything blue other than another FoW is going to cost you in terms of critical mass for going off in a great deal of situations.

I'm glad you agree with me on the U/B mana base.  If wheel is that important, however, it is possible to splash red for that.  (something in the area of 1 volc to grab with the fetches in a U/B/r version)

As for xantid, it is certainly a good side against control, but unless they completely suck they  WILL expect it game 2 if you have green in the deck.  However, I think that a more stable mana base is preferable to running green, even with sbed xantids facored in.

I think a suitable benchmark in terms of speed could be a deck capable of turn 1-2 kills rarely, but more often focussing on consistently killing turn 3-4 even in the face of hate.

Timesprial seems like a reasonable inclusion since we plan on going off a bit later-- a timesprial on turn 4 is quite amazing- like desire and bargain it pretty much allows you to win most of the times you resolve it.  If we don't include red it is the 3rd draw7.

Future sight seems like an interesting idea, but I havn't tested it at all in storm so I can't really say for sure.  In theory playing a bunch of stuff from on top of your library seems really good, but the more lands you include in your mana base the worse it is in use, however with fewer lands it becomes very difficult to cast due to UUU.  I'm not sure it is worthy of inclusion

About the aforementioned frantic search, I don't think it's very good because it usually just acts a card disadvantage filter and free storm... only really good with acadamy out and turn turn 3 area on.  Certainly not terrible, but there are probably better cards to put in the slot.

So, so far: 12:
4 duress
2 hurkyl's
1 rebuild
1 chain of vapour
1 demonic consulatation
2 land
1 timespiral

Also note that if we do cut red we take out wheel and that gives us one additional slot.  I have 2 additional land to imrove the stability over the mana base (rather than ESGs), and timespiral as an additional bomb.  We have 1 slot free in the 13.  Suggestions?

Edit: Maybe addional land to up the count to 13?

Edit: On further thought, I think that the mana base should be reduced to UB, and add 1 land as the last card of the 13 and add 1 land as the card to replace wheel, allowing for a stable 14 card land base something like this:

4 delta
2 strand
5 island
2 underground sea
1 swamp

in addition to the artifact acceleration in the mana base at the start of the thread.

I will try testing this thing now, with what time I have.

[Nehptis]

Rozetta, excellent idea for a topic that I will also be watching and contributing to as much as possible.  I think that after getting some significant input from TMD you'll have some good content for your own article on the subject.  I agree with Shaman's point that parts of this deck are very meta game dependent.  But, we'll do our best to brainstorm a solid core build that will most likely end up with some meta-game slots.

Let me begin by saying that I strongly agree with your first statement that a deck somewhere in between the current "known" builds (DeathLong, Draw7, TPS) might actually offer a more optimal build than the current ones.  I have been piloting TOA Combo as my only Vintage deck for some time now (I started playing the original Long.dec build back when it was introduced). Currently, I am playing "a deck somewhere in-between the current "known" builds" of TOA combo. Along the way I have played TPS, Deathlong, and even a version with Rectors and Therapies.  Each version had varying degrees of success depending on the meta.

The Mana:
Gandalf, I don't think we are at a point yet to say that it should DEFINITELY be U/B only.  First, I think Rozetta should separate the mana base section of the core list into lands and spells.  Since, I anticipate more discussion on the land portion of the core list.  Personally, I don't think the basic core should be 105C lands.  Nor do I believe that a straight U/B basic land build is optimal. Somewhere in between has been best for me.  The Academy is a must include of course.  So, there's no need to mention it.  Here's my land base:

2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 GST Mine
1 City of Brass

My reasoning for choosing this build is that I like having access to more than just U/B mana for cards that I will discuss below.  Also, I think that it is important to have some fetchlands and basic lands in the mix to avoid losing to non-basic land hate typically found in the form of Wastelands.

Core Broken:
I agree with your Broken Core Cards.  Some comments on a few:

Wheel of Fortune - One of the best reasons for running a few 5 C lands.
2 x Tendrils of Agony - I also feel 2 is the optimal number.

The last 11 cards (since I run +2 land more than you):

Core for Me:
4 x Duress - The best disruption card available to this deck other than FOW.  I agree with all the arguments against FOW.  Pitching Blue cards hurts this deck.
Time Walk - IMO this is a core card.  There is never a situation where I don't want to take another free turn with this deck.
Chain of Vapor - This has its obvious protective uses to bounce threats.  However, a very effective use for it is by sacking your already tapped lands to bounce your own TAPPED 0 CC or 1 CC artifacts to boost your mana pool and storm count (the copied chains won't count towards storm but the recast artifacts will).  
Rebuild - This has its obvious protective uses to bounce threats / up your storm count.  I've also always enjoyed the cycling benefit that can be played after a Mystical or Vamp Tutor.

Under Consideration:
Crop Rotation - Practically every time I draw and cast this card to fetch the Academy I win the game.  Also, it works great on removing a COB if the pain hurts too much in some matches.  And it does a nice job of swapping a "used" up GS Mine for a new land.
Frantic Search - When I don't include this card I always find myself in situations where I wished I could have drawn it to untap lands, especially the Academy.
Balance - This has long been a SB only card.  But, recently I have been testing it MD with some positive results.  More testing is needed, however, the idea here is that why not exploit the obvious benefit of such a strong card in a deck that has many ways of emptying then refilling its hand, surviving on low or no land and never having any creatures.
Abeyance - Another test card.  I like the idea of having this as my 5th "Duress" with a cantrip.

Other notable cards and reasons why I don't CURRENTLY use them in my MAIN DECK:
Demonic Con - I hate losing to bad luck.
Diminishing Returns - Wheel is such a stronger D7 and again I hate losing to bad luck.
Time Spiral - Currently, my feeling is that this is just too slow.  Yes, on an average you will win with this on Turn 4.  But, I'd rather play with some 5 C lands and use the Wheel to win on turn 3 or less.
Xantid Swarm - I like them, but, I can't find room for them and Duress seems to do the job and it is in my main color, Black.
FOW - Pitching Blue cards hurts this deck.
Future Sight - Too slow and feels to me like a "win more card".  If I have that much mana available I'm doing better things than casting Future Sight.
Death Wish - I don't like the way that the Deathlong deck runs for the same reasons that Rozetta mentioned in his 1st post.
Burning Wish - There just aren't that many good SB targets to justify a single Burning Wish.
DSC - Yes, the Iron Giant is a backup plan.  But, for the same negative reasons that Gandalf mentioned is why I don't use him.
Hurklys Recall - I'd rather fill the 2 spots with the Rebuild and CoV for the reasons I listed above.  The Hurkyls for me are better off in the SB.
ESG - There are other stronger cards that I would rather use and never felt that I needed any further mana boost.  

ESG - Which are brilliant against workshop decks...

Please explain why they are brilliant.  I'm not being sarcastic.  I really would like to understand the reasoning here.  I realize that ESG are good.  But, I wouldn't go as far as to say they are brilliant in a Workshop matchup.

EDITs for formatting.

[WildWillieWonderboy]

@ Nephtis: Why fetches without Duals? I can see the wasteland argument, but being able to fetch them gives them a huge leg up over city and mine, not to say that they maybe shouldn't be included as well.

I really don't see Deathlong as any less consistent than TPS. They both randomly crap out, but for opposite reasons, TPS doesn't find a threat or Deathlong doesn't find reliable mana. Furthermore, the approach people seem to be thinking of (I may be wrong) is to sort of combine the two decks in a magical proportion that will yield the perfect combo deck, which just seems ludicrous to me. The decks are very different, the only thing they really have in common in terms of gameplan is that they will eventually win with tendrils.

We shouldn't kid ourselves: optimization in this case involves either improving each build seperately or making an entirely new deck, using the other decks as models and case studies, not templates. Since consistency and speed are the issue, everyone was right to analyze the manabase and threat density. The proportions of these in your hand have to be perfect, like gasoline and air in a cylinder, or the deck will misfire (<3 analogies). Yet, I think this may be the heart of the inconsistency: you only get seven of the 60 cards. Your sample size at any given point throws all the percentages out the window and may force you to rely on one key card in the opening game and leave you open to the good old turn-my-force-of-will-into-time-stop play. This is why cards like necro and bargain are so great, as they give you a huge chunk of cards, almost guaranteeing the requisite combination and a subsequent win. As such, I feel that the most effective strategy will be to focus on resolving these bombs. Alternatively, we might try giving engine cards like Ironworks another look.

[Nehptis]

@ Nephtis: Why fetches without Duals? I can see the wasteland argument, but being able to fetch them gives them a huge leg up over city and mine, not to say that they maybe shouldn't be included as well

The reason for Fetches is to get the Island or Swamp.  The reason for Island and Swamp is that non-basic land hate is a huge problem for the deck.  It kills your tempo. Also, having 4 more shuffling effects with the Fetchlands is a nice thing after a poor Brainstorm.

The reason for the GSM and CoB vs. Duals is that I haven't found an effective combination of Duals that gives me the 5 C mana that I need to  fuel my non-Blue/Black spells (Wheel of F, Crop R, etc.).

The mana base that I described seems to be very close to perfect for the deck.  Rarely am I ever left wanting a mana color. 4 of the 5 C lands just works.  They can be any 5 C lands that you prefer.  I play 3 GSM and 1 CoB since I don't like taking too much pain but I don't like the total risk of running out of GSM counters in a long match.  The F Orchard will probably make its way in as well to replace maybe 1 GSM.

[Smmenen]

The simple fact is that there aren't enough cards to round out a solid combo deck.

I have probably written enough pages in Microsoft Word about Tendrils decks for Starcitygames that I could publish a book.

The fact of the matter is that Tendrils decks have a threat density problem because nearly all of the good cards are restricted.

Here is what you have:

The starting point:

Necro
Bargain
Desire
Yawg Will

Those four cards are the three strongest cards in any Tendrils deck.

Then you have:

Tinker
Jar
Wheel
Twister
Windfall
4 Brainstrom

Those cards are common to every Tendrils deck.

Another problem isn't just threat density - but threat quality.  More draw7s are what's needed.  What's needed is higher quality cards that don't refill your opp's hand.

Until Portal is legal, I think my two Tendrils decks: DeathLong (MeanDeath) and Draw7 along with the TPS variants are really the only viable builds.

[Nehptis]

The simple fact is that there aren't enough cards to round out a solid combo deck.

Agreed, for now, but it doesn't hurt for us to try to improve TOA combo even further.

Those four cards are the three strongest cards in any Tendrils deck.

Ummm, those 4 are 3??? Don't follow you here.  But I think the point is that Necro, Bargain, Desire, Yawg Will are power and core, agreed.

Then you have:

Tinker
Jar
Wheel
Twister
Windfall
4 Brainstrom

Those cards are common to every Tendrils deck.

Sorry, but I believe that TPS does not run Wheel.

Another problem isn't just threat density - but threat quality.  More draw7s are what's needed.  What's needed is higher quality cards that don't refill your opp's hand.

Again, I'm not following you here.  You say more draw7s are needed, but then you say that cards that don't refill your opp's hand are what's needed.  Historically Draw7s refill all players hands.

Until Portal is legal, I think my two Tendrils decks: DeathLong (MeanDeath) and Draw7 along with the TPS variants are really the only viable builds.

I agree that Portal will have an impact on Vintage decks, including combo.  But, to say that "your" decks (along with TPS) are the only viable TOA builds is a stretch.  Draw7 hasn't posted nearly enough top finishing numbers to be considered "viable".  It clearly has the obvious fault that you, yourself have pointed out, the deck refills your opp's hand.  Deathlong is definitely a viable build, and along with TPS, is currently the best PROVEN and BATTLE TESTED TOA combo option.  But, I think Rozetta's and our goal here is to explore another build option, which is definitely an interesting and challenging task.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

@Neptis: Those higher quality cards that refill your hand don't exist; that's what Steve is saying the problem is.  If you "hate losing to bad luck," combo probably isn't what you should be playing .  Consultation may randomly kill you, but this is no different than how necro, bargain, and desire can poop out.  (and with necro and bargain it results in you dieing, also).  The card is restricted for a reason: instant speed tutor at B is isane, and the drawback is virtually non-existant except in rare instances.

As for my build, U/B certainly isn't the only way to go, but that is an area I would like to explore, sort of a TPS without fow concept, thus tring to maintain a higher threat density while still having anwers and stability- if that isn't comprimising between more taditional TPS builds and the faster storm combo decks I don't know what is...  However, I do agree that the decks are quite different, thus they are classified as diferent archetypes, but as rozetta has shown us, they all share basically the same core (with the ecxcpetion of the mana base and sometimes wheel).

In the small amount of goldfishing I did today I found the artfact bounce to be quite useful simply in comboing off, and mding the 4 to fight hate cards while also being a combo enabler seems to be a good plan.

[rozetta]

It seems we have a real diversity in land-base suggestions here! This is good, since if many different configurations seem to work for people, we have a lot of room to maneuver, and to a certain extent, personal preference can slightly dictate the configuration. Maybe there is no single ideal configuration.

I'll address my personal opinions on a few more cards mentioned here:

Frantic Search
I actually believe this to be a good card. I have not used it in a while, but there are numerous situations where it is useful. Often you'll have at least one dead card in hand (an extra land, a conditional spell, etc.) that you really don't need, in which case digging 2 cards deeper os never bad. After a draw7, you may find a couple of mana sources and be able to use this to untap all your lands and continue to cast spells. It's not just good with Academy.

Demonic Consultation
I'm quite on the fence about this one. It's most safe use is to fetch a 4-of, or in a pinch, a Tendrils, bounce or restricted card. In golfishing, it's burned me a few times, but in real life, it's always been useful. I'm probably slight more on the side of "include", but it's a personal preference in the end.

Diminishing Returns/Time Spiral
Diminishing Returns could be a possibility for U/B builds, as a replacement for Wheel. However, I might venture that Time Spiral is higher on my list if I were playing a slightly slower setup with a more resilient mana base. Spiral certainly not an ideal turn 1 draw7, but it's nice to draw around turn 3, whereas Diminishing Returns is good earlier game assuming you have access to the UU to cast it.

Time Walk
This is definitely an auto-include for me, since I'm always going to want to untap my mana. There are plenty of situations where you might cast a draw7, but not have enough mana to continue casting the spells in your hand. To be able to untap allows you to have another go, and at this point, the Time Walk could be a dangerous enough threat that it's worth countering.

Hurkyl's Recall/Rebuild
Note that Rebuild affects all players whereas Hurkyl's Recall affects only the targetted player. This makes a slight difference, since you might have a Jar on the table you don't want to bring back to hand (although it's rare). Rebuild's extra mana makes it a little more of an answer card than a storm enabler at times. The cycling ability is nice, though I don't tend to use it often. One last thing to note is that a Chalice for 2 is easier to acheive than one for 3, so Rebuild dodges it better. I'd lean towards Hurkyl's Recall main and Rebuild in side.

Elvish Spirit Guide
I think this is genius. Running 2 of these really shores up the lack of fast, off-coloured mana sources. The reason why it's good against Stax is that you can use them as surprise mana for an EOT Hurkyl's Recall without the need to keep playing out lands to be wasted. I'd say 2 are an almost automatic inclusion.

To address the defeatism, yes it is true that we don't have enough aggressively-priced spells to fill out the missing spaces in this type of deck - and they will probably never print them, so we're stuck with what we have. We have optimal builds of certain Tendrils-based decks, but that isn't to say there is another deck out there. We've addressed the point that we're not going to get a deck faster than Belcher or more resilient than TPS. What we're trying to do here is explore the possibility of an independent build that tries to address the weaknesses of the current decks.

Not a lot of people play Tendrils-based decks and even less people work on building new ones. If you look at the forums, there's a new fish or tog thread every day. What I really wanted to do was get people who play these decks and work on these decks to put their collective heads together in a collaborative effort in an attempt to ascertain if there is a better build out there that we haven't thought of.

It does take lateral thinking to come up with new ideas and sometimes we might want to explore the card pool a little further even if it ends up that we don't find anything more optimal than what already exists. I don't think anyone can say they've explored every possible facet of building a Tendrils deck in Type 1 enough to say "this is it, this is the best build possible."

I did not intend to "template" the deck. The fact is, aside from the specific lands, which one of those cards would you not include in a combo deck? They're all a natural fit, since they're powerful and work towards the deck's goal of playing a string of spells into a Tendrils.

[MaxxMatt]

I tested on my own a UB-TPS build with a single red card additioned ( Wheel of Fortune of course ) to the maindeck.

The mana base that I tested ( and that performed really well ) is that one:

( 14 lands )
5 Fetchland
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tolarian Academy

( 14 mana accelerators )
4 Dark Ritual
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal


This little addition can let you play the "needed" Wheel of Fortune to fuel the Draw7 after Draw7 after Draw7 strategy.
The 5 Fetchlands can let you search Volcanic Island if needed with ease and Brainstorms can let you get it back until needed.

I tested this configuration only supposing that Wheel of Fortune is needed in order to win faster or better. At this moment, I'm not completely sure about this adding. This configuration prevent the build from being too much altered from the initial UB's one and without losing one of the most important strenght of the deck: The consistency of his mana base.

[Nehptis]

Frantic Search - Rozetta and I are in agreement here as to its usefulness.

Demonic Consultation - I agree with Rozetta's and Gandalf's comments regarding this.  But, it still comes down to preference for me.  The card sits in my Play binder just begging me to re-include it.  But I still hold grudges against it for the times that I've been burned!

Diminishing Returns/Time Spiral - For me, Wheel > Time Spiral > Returns

Time Walk - I agree with Rozzetta and myself,  auto-include.

Hurkyl's Recall/Rebuild - If you have a spot for Vapor, Recall and Rebuild then I suggest using them all.  I think Vapor is an auto-include since its uses are both offensive and defensive as I have described before.  No doubt Recall is strong.  But faced with the choice of Recall vs. Rebuild, the Rebuild feels stronger.  3 vs 2 CC avoids typical Chalice locks, bouncing all artificats is good!  You can replay all of yours!  I'll take the small chance that I'll have a Jar in play that I don't want to sack immediately.  Also, cycling after VT/MT is good.

Elvish Spirit Guide - I understand the case for these, and am looking to force them into my build and test further.

[rozetta]

How important does everyone think LED is? I've seen a few manabases now which didn't include it. It can be quite conditional.

[Nehptis]

TPS builds typically do not include LED and MaxxMatt can comment further as a TPS player.  Basically, TPS is playing a slower, more controlled game. Popping the LED after a D7 is not as crticial to them since TPS usually has already established a mana base.  For non-TPS builds that intend to go-off faster than TPS, LED is a must play with a D7 or with a Wish for Will with DLong.

[Godot]

Demonic Consultation
I'm quite on the fence about this one. It's most safe use is to fetch a 4-of, or in a pinch, a Tendrils, bounce or restricted card. In golfishing, it's burned me a few times, but in real life, it's always been useful. I'm probably slight more on the side of "include", but it's a personal preference in the end.  

But, it still comes down to preference for me.

The preference being that people like to play weaker decks by excluding incredibly powerful cards?  It amazes me that there is any debate whatsoever about the inclusion of this card.  This 'personal preference' stuff is just a cop out.  The number of games in which this card will play a significant a role in winning you the game is >>>>>>> than the number of times that it will burn you.  You're playing full sets of Lands, Rituals, Brainstorms and probably Duresses therefore this card is an auto-include.  There is no personal preference involved--the best version of the deck will include a Demonic Consultation.

[Thug]

The preference being that people like to play weaker decks by excluding incredibly powerful cards? It amazes me that there is any debate whatsoever about the inclusion of this card. This 'personal preference' stuff is just a cop out. The number of games in which this card will play a significant a role in winning you the game is >>>>>>> than the number of times that it will burn you. You're playing full sets of Lands, Rituals, Brainstorms and probably Duresses therefore this card is an auto-include. There is no personal preference involved--the best version of the deck will include a Demonic Consultation.

Consultation makes a lot more sence in DeathLong than it does in TPS, and it is NOT an auto-inclusion in TPS, I actually don't think I have ever seen anyone play it in TPS.
Draw-seven also doesn't really like consultation, since it already is removing enough cards with Returns, and consulting for a Ritual really isn't al that hot if you're not gonna find a Will soon (like 4/5 Wishes do)
The only deck in which Consultation seems an auto-inclusion is DeathLong.
If the point of this topic is contructing a deck somewhwere in between all these decks Consultation should not be an auto-inclusion.

Koen

[Whatever Works]

How important does everyone think LED is? I've seen a few manabases now which didn't include it. It can be quite conditional.

Its an interesting thought when you consider that NOBODY ran LED until after it was discovered in Long.dec. Its also kind of amusing how every other combo deck shoved a copy into the mana base without ever questioning the cards viability in decks that dont run the 4 burning wishes, or in todays game decks that are not deathlong (sinse i refuse to give in and call the deck meandeath, as i refuse to call mono blue SmennenBlue).

LED in my opinion has been an extremely overated card, because of how amazing it was in long.dec, but from my play experiences its been mediocre at best in tendrils decks in the past few months.

Kyle

[Mixing Mike]

Frantic Search - Rozetta and I are in agreement here as to its usefulness.

I'm not a big combo player, but I can see this cards potential, even in goldfishing.  Pitching cards you don't need to win, or can't even play (read: lands).  It helps to smooth the manabase when you play it, or it generates a ton of mana with Academy.  The only bad thing I can see is if you're not going off, and you have mutiple Gemstone Mines out.  With that said, I'm going to have to say this card needs at least a second look by whoever's not playing it.

[g0tenks00]

the usefulness of frantic search seems all too narrow imho; the only thing that it really has synergy with in the deck is tolarian academy, which is a restricted card. if you're going to run frantic search it almost seems obligatory to also run crop rotation to maximize the probability of playing the academy before you frantic search.

besides this...imo frantic search seems just so...suboptimal that it doesn't seem to be worth including in a tendrils built at all. it's 2U casting cost is definitely prohibitive for a deck that has very little mana to spent on card drawing [if you're spending 3 mana to draw cards, it had better be on a draw7], and in addition to this you're not getting any real card advantage as you're discarding cards anyway. granted card advantage isn't necessarily what's impotant here, it's card quality, and frantic search does let you dig two cards deeper into your deck, but that in itself doesn't seem like a good enough reason to warrant including it. however i haven't done any goldfishing with it, and maybe I need to do that before I understand fully what you mean by its "usefulness."

[Fominian]

<snip>LED in my opinion has been an extremely overated card, because of how amazing it was in long.dec, but from my play experiences its been mediocre at best in tendrils decks in the past few months.

LED's strong suit is that it follows extremely well after a wish or D7 thus making it ideal in Longesque decks and D7 - however this is where it ends.  

In a deck such as TPS where at best it runs 2 wishes and 4 D7s it is often a dead card that its major use is to A) boost the storm count, and B) sit around the event you cast a wish/d7/ or ywin.

Overall though, I would have to agree, ever since its showing in original long it has been overrated (slightly) - It does deserve soem of its rep, just not as much as it has right now.  All this is IMHO of course

[Mixing Mike]

the usefulness of frantic search seems all too narrow imho; the only thing that it really has synergy with in the deck is tolarian academy, which is a restricted card. if you're going to run frantic search it almost seems obligatory to also run crop rotation to maximize the probability of playing the academy before you frantic search.

besides this...imo frantic search seems just so...suboptimal that it doesn't seem to be worth including in a tendrils built at all. it's 2U casting cost is definitely prohibitive for a deck that has very little mana to spent on card drawing [if you're spending 3 mana to draw cards, it had better be on a draw7], and in addition to this you're not getting any real card advantage as you're discarding cards anyway. granted card advantage isn't necessarily what's impotant here, it's card quality, and frantic search does let you dig two cards deeper into your deck, but that in itself doesn't seem like a good enough reason to warrant including it. however i haven't done any goldfishing with it, and maybe I need to do that before I understand fully what you mean by its "usefulness."

You're 1-of arguement with Academy is worthless.  The last time I checked, DeathLong, and TPS were both running Crop Rotation.  Don't forget about Demonic Consultation, Vamp, and Demonic which can also get Academy if needed.  And with all the draw you have accessable to you in one turn, you'll probably see Academy more or less every game anyways. Or at least make it so you do.

Why do you think Frantic Search is 'suboptimal'?  For each of the reasons you posted, I can think of an even more valid reason to run it.

By usefullness I meant running the card for exatly what it's meant to do, pitch 2 dead cards for 2 useful cards.  Don't forget, choosing a card slot in any deck isn't just all about what 'Card X' does, it's more of a question like "How much better is 'Card X' than my other options?"  This is where F. Search IMO shines.  +1 Storm for free (or 1CC on some occasions), and you pitch say a land (that you can't play anyways) and some unneeded tutor for more 0CC artifacts/Rituals, Draw7's, tutors, etc.....  I think that's some good stuff, even if it's -1 card advantage because card advantage doesn't matter when you're going to win that turn anyways.  

Think of it this way, are you not going to play Mystical Tutor because of the -1 CA?  What about Demonic Consultation? I know that Consulting for something takes out at least 6 cards of your deck no matter what, usually more.  But you're still playing those, because they get you what you need to win.  I've found it's the same way with Frantic Search.

[ViRidIAnLoNGBoW]

the usefulness of frantic search seems all too narrow imho; the only thing that it really has synergy with in the deck is tolarian academy, which is a restricted card. if you're going to run frantic search it almost seems obligatory to also run crop rotation to maximize the probability of playing the academy before you frantic search.

besides this...imo frantic search seems just so...suboptimal that it doesn't seem to be worth including in a tendrils built at all. it's 2U casting cost is definitely prohibitive for a deck that has very little mana to spent on card drawing [if you're spending 3 mana to draw cards, it had better be on a draw7], and in addition to this you're not getting any real card advantage as you're discarding cards anyway. granted card advantage isn't necessarily what's impotant here, it's card quality, and frantic search does let you dig two cards deeper into your deck, but that in itself doesn't seem like a good enough reason to warrant including it. however i haven't done any goldfishing with it, and maybe I need to do that before I understand fully what you mean by its "usefulness."

As far as the usefulness of frantic search i have found that when using it i was using one of the artifact mana sources to pay for it and it was being used not to draw the cards, unless off a mystical tutor or something, but to untap the lands.  I have been experimenting with TPS for a while and have found it only useful when you need a specific colored mana or, or to charge a mind's desire or a time spiral.  I have also found in my testing(mostly against workshop) that by the time I was casting it(frantic search) i was essentially toyin with my opponent and just getting excessive storm for a tendrils.  I have almost never found it as a must include card and would easily put in an extra bounce spell like echoing truth.

Demonic Consultation
I'm quite on the fence about this one. It's most safe use is to fetch a 4-of, or in a pinch, a Tendrils, bounce or restricted card. In golfishing, it's burned me a few times, but in real life, it's always been useful. I'm probably slight more on the side of "include", but it's a personal preference in the end.

Demonic consulation seems wasted on searching out something other than dark ritual, duress, force of will, or domething ur running multiples of.  even though in a pinch you may need to go for the draw7 but in most cases i think that calling a restricted card seems to risky.

[rozetta]

Basically, the usefulness of Frantic Search comes down to the fact that you want a lot of blue and black mana while going off. It's going to be very common that you have 2 or more lands on the table plus some off-coloured moxes/crypt/vault when trying to go off, and at this point, untapping those 2 lands allows you to cast that extra duress, ritual, brainstorm or whatever.

I've actually been pondering the usefulness of Windfall. I put something U/B (no Wheel) together last night to goldfish and accidentally left the Windfall out of the deck. To be honest, I never missed it once and the deck ran smoothly.

So the next question to everyone would be: in a U/B Tendrils deck (where you have access to Twister, Jar and possibly Spiral), would you ever consider not including Windfall?

[Fominian]

So the next question to everyone would be: in a U/B Tendrils deck (where you have access to Twister, Jar and possibly Spiral), would you ever consider not including Windfall?

Yes but in an UB version chances are you are running Bargain.  And well Windfall + Bargain = good

However, I have tried it in the SB to work with Deathwish with mixed results.  However, I have found that of all locations you can have windfall is in your MD.  

Worse case is you even the hand size, best case you win.

EDIT: Realised this was rather vague, in which I appolagize for - I will add some facts tomorrow to support different points.

[Nehptis]

I've actually been pondering the usefulness of Windfall. I put something U/B (no Wheel) together last night to goldfish and accidentally left the Windfall out of the deck. ?

So, now we are considering a U/B build with no Wheel, no Windfall, no FOW and 13 or 14 lands?  So, basically you are playing a less effective version of TPS.  Not a good plan.

Windfall is a must include.  Also, I still strongly disagree with a U/B only build unless it is TPS WITH FOWs.  I still think there is a 4 or 5 Color TOA deck that could be a contender.  (In addition to Deathlong, of course.)  It would include, C Rotation, Wheel, etc as discussed earlier.