Cranial Extraction vs Mind Twist (in 4 CC)

[Draven]

I know I have seen plenty of threads about Cranial Extraction and whether it will see Vintage play. My question is: Is Cranial Extraction a viable replacement to Mind Twist in 4 Color Control? The are both sorceries. The 4 casting-cost of CE is not much more intense than the casting-cost of MT and can still be drained into. I think they both have their broken plays, however, which one is more broken? Another thought is, is a slot in the board worth one or the other. The CE is obviously better against Combo and Control when the deck reliese on a few kills. The MT could be sided in against aggro. Is CE a win-more card? These are all thoughts I have had and wanted to try and center a discussion on the card in relationship to 4cc.

To summerize, my questions are:

1. Is CE a viable replacement to Mind Twist in 4cc.
2. Is CE worth a slot in the board (or MT if you run CE MD)?
3. Is MT and/or CE a win-more card?

Thanks- Draven

[ZhiMing]

From what I think, CE is worth a try. There's no such thing as whether is it a viable replacement. It might not work for all environments. All depends on the metagame your side has.

[True Lies Ownz]

I thought of it in mind twist's spot the first time I saw it. Could be great in welder heavy environments.

[dicemanx]

I can only think of one deck that this card would severely cripple - Dragon. Every other deck can still fight on after a resolved Extraction, which makes the card not worth it in my opinion, especially since it is such an expensive sorcery to begin with. I certainly wouldn't replace Mind Twist with it, although its really not fair to compare the two cards to each other. They are completely different forms of disruption.

[Mind_under_Matter]

I can only think of one deck that this card would severely cripple - Dragon. Every other deck can still fight on after a resolved Extraction, which makes the card not worth it in my opinion, especially since it is such an expensive sorcery to begin with. I certainly wouldn't replace Mind Twist with it, although its really not fair to compare the two cards to each other. They are completely different forms of disruption.

Now here I have to disagree. Welder based decks need Welder, it's why they're Welder based, and why they show up in half of the slots of top eights over the last few months. Once losing their Welders a deck can still win, but it's slowed to a point to where any deck worth its own salt should be able to win anyways, and ones that don't, 4CC in this instance, have so many control goodies that the recursion offered by the Welder negated.

Back to the topic at hand. I see Cranial Extraction as a good card in a well defined meta. A place where you know what your neighbor is playing. There's also the issue of knowing what to name if you're draining into it early. I see Mind Twist as a better overall card, but Cranial Extraction as the perfect card for situations where it's warranted. My final conclusion, it's a metagame call.

[Fominian]

1. Is CE a viable replacement to Mind Twist in 4cc.

Is it a viable replacement, simply put: possibly.  However will CE can negate a decks win (possibly) Mind Twist produces almost instantaneous card advantage, so in the end is a toss up.  However, I would choose twist over CE almost every time - only time being I know exactly what all my opponents are playing, which is unlikely but plausible.

2. Is CE worth a slot in the board (or MT if you run CE MD)?

Now this is easily answered - Yes.  Since game 1 you can learn the deck and since you are going to a tourney you should know deck lists pretty well, a boarded in CE becomes powerful - there is also the added bit; you can wish for it in that case for when (if) you want it.

3. Is MT and/or CE a win-more card?

I find MT to be the win-more card, as a you can hit an entire hand, and nets you Card Advantage, which against most decks ('specially if you hit hard) means a win.  If it does not mean a win, it at least throws your opponent into top deck mode as well as gives a few turns if you needed it...

[Addolorisi]

2. Is CE worth a slot in the board (or MT if you run CE MD)?

Now this is easily answered - Yes.  Since game 1 you can learn the deck and since you are going to a tourney you should know deck lists pretty well, a boarded in CE becomes powerful - there is also the added bit; you can wish for it in that case for when (if) you want it..

I don't understand this. You just said you would almost never maindeck it because you wouldn't know what your opponents would be playing, indicating that you only feel Etraction is bad game 1. But if you're playing against a competive deck and you get to the point where you are able to cast Extraction with no better plays, there's no real excuse not to know what to name.

[Gabethebabe]

My short answer: NO.

Cranal Extraction is not even close to Mind Twist. There are too many decks that are not crippled by a resolved CE, but all decks are crippled with a twisted away hand. Meaning that CE is SB material at its very best and Mind Twist is maindeck material ever since it was printed.

Extract never made it. CE won´t either.

[Fominian]

I don't understand this. You just said you would almost never maindeck it because you wouldn't know what your opponents would be playing, indicating that you only feel Etraction is bad game 1. But if you're playing against a competive deck and you get to the point where you are able to cast Extraction with no better plays, there's no real excuse not to know what to name.

Abreviated form: ITs a last ditch effort for control decks.

That is all CE is and will ever be IMHO.

Lobotomy - nice trick, was it played? No.  Extract - again nice trick, but again was it played? No.  An though this does have a distinct advantage over those cards, it is still wanting.  Its a bad card, and it will be one of those ones that people will dedicate to break or at the very least name as a worth contender for a slot in a some decks (ie: any control deck running black) - which it doesn't...

[thorme]

I can only think of one deck that this card would severely cripple - Dragon.

Think harder.  Others have mentioned Welder-based decks.  I'll throw a few more decks out there like Tog, Belcher, and Doomsday.


Oops...did I mention Doomsday.  Must have been a typo...there is no Tier 1 Doomsday deck.  Go on about your business, you saw nothing here.

[combo_dude]

The thing about Welder decks is that it only costs R - as a result, they will often have it on the board before you can do anything. That's not to say that it can't be hit by F/I or Swords, but removing all their Welders is not much use if they can protect one on the board with Drain/FoW.

There's similar reasoning for Belcher - you HAVE to be able to Drain into it and play it turn 3, or they should have done something very dangerous by then. Plus they often have Living Wish as an outlet for alternative win methods.

Tog and Dragon, however, ARE badly damaged - it only uses Tog as a realistic win condition, and even if they have some other way, it's normally decking the opponent with Deep Analysis or something equally meaningless. Dragon has nothing but Ambassador decking/beats. Terrifying.

Tog and Dragon are both annihilated by it. It doesn't dent much else too badly though.

[Jacob Orlove]

This is pretty basic stuff. Moved to newbie.

[davidw89]

Worthless post removed.  PM sent.
- Kowal[/color]

[orgcandman]

The point of cranial extraction isn't to singlehandedly win a particular matchup. It's to give you breathing room in the matchup. While Mind Twist CAN win control matchups, it MAY not be able to handle the particular matchups where CE is good. I think with the current prevalence of both fish AND welder you need to take a hard look at your meta. Against welder based decks, CE for welder (if you can get it early) basically means game over. Against fish, I think I'd much rather have the mind twist. Again, it really depends on your meta.

That having been said, many combo decks die to cranial extraction. Making it about on par with mind twist in the combo matchup.

For the new england meta, where I've cut mind twist completely, I think cranial extraction will do a nice job.

[DEA]

i think it's been said, but welder costs only ONE red mana and hits on turn 1
i don't forsee cranial extraction working reliable in the early turns
also, why would you think removing welder will kill off welder decks?
granted, they no longer have a 20 turn clock but there's no competent deck which abuses welder that'll be crippled without it

[dicemanx]

I can only think of one deck that this card would severely cripple - Dragon.

Think harder.  Others have mentioned Welder-based decks.  I'll throw a few more decks out there like Tog, Belcher, and Doomsday.

Welder-based decks would not be even remotely affected as badly as Dragon. For one thing, Welders can evade CE by being in play. Dragons are not safe anywhere. Secondly, Welder-based decks always have the option of hard-casting threats or finding and casting Tinker.

Belcher is almost a non-issue. If you have time to cast a 4cc sorcery against Belcher, and they don't have a Belcher in play, chances are good that you were in control anyways.

Hulk is a deck I did forget to include. But then again, who wants to play Hulk these days .

[effang]

I do.

Btw, saying that welder decks would barely be affected is ridiculous.  Welders are probably the strongest component of welder decks, hence the name.  True, you can hardcast them, but by the time you reach that mana level you most likely already lost.  Whoever heard of type 1 being won by hardcasting 8 mana permanents?

There is truth that you could survive, but to say the effect is minimal is just crazy.

[Toad]

Good luck resolving Cranial Extraction against Stax

And then if you manage to do it, go ahead an name Goblin Welder. It's not a problem for the deck.

[Phele]

But what about naming Smokestack. Doesn't this make Stax a bad WS-aggro variant. I think, Cranial Extraction really will find its ways into Keepers sideboard against specific kind of combo, control and lock decks. TPS will roughly work without Tendrils and Enslaver certainly has some problems without its Welders.

[TheFram]

What people seem to be implicitly ignoring is that you can remove whatever you want with Cranial Extraction. It is not quite as situational as mind twist (or as sucky against active welders), but significantly less powerful in the general case.

Certainly it is somewhat weak against stax and aggro (though not dead), but against Control Slaver, General Combo, Tog, 4CC, Mono U, GAT... CE is fairly powerful.

I see Cranial Extraction in a OSE or rOSE style deck, not as a choice between it and mind-twist, but in a configuration that runs a twist and multiple CE's by default.

[zero]

Did everyone not get the memo about using goblin welders as FoW bait (as in, they're rarely necessary to get your deck to run)? Seriously, everyone's always trying to counter or kill welders, and yet those decks still win, against far faster answers than CE. Are you going to waste time on CE when a juggernaut is knocking down your life at a rapid clip? Are you going to cast it when you're about to get crucible locked? This is an expensive sorcery. and workshop decks tend to have a diversity of threats. And having played with and against control slaver, I would not rely on this spell being cast against it all that easily, though as stated it should be better against it than a workshop deck. If by chance it does become prevalent or effective, I guess it's time to start maindecking that misdirection again. Hell, even dragon can run that. Or just duress it out of your hand as it sits there waiting to be cast.

[dicemanx]

Btw, saying that welder decks would barely be affected is ridiculous. Welders are probably the strongest component of welder decks, hence the name. True, you can hardcast them, but by the time you reach that mana level you most likely already lost.

First, I didn't say that Welder decks would barely be affected. I'm saying that CE is not some auto-win card vs Welder-packing decks, because they still have resources available to them to win. Furthermore, if they get one or more Welders into play, they can evade your CE. Finally, the one Welder-based deck that truly relies on Welder, Control Slaver, happens to be a *very* difficult deck to resolve a 4cc Sorcery against.

Whoever heard of type 1 being won by hardcasting 8 mana permanents?

Well, these things do actually happen in T1, especially when two mid-range control decks face off against each other. If, for example, CS can outdraw and outbroken 4CC, then it doesn't make a shred of difference if your win condition costs 1 mana or 7/8 now does it? I'm not saying that resolving a CE against CS will not weaken them; I simply don't think it is strong enough to warrant an inclusion. And this is coming from a devoted 4cc player.

[Meddling Mike]

I'm more or less inclined to agree with Diceman on this one, Welder decks typically have other resources at its disposal, and I don't think that Cranial Extraction would be as good in the spots typically occupied by mind twist. The reason why mind twist being a sorcery was not as risky was that you could often force through the mind twist and then your opponent would typically be left hurting for options on their turn. Cranial Extraction on the other hand may not affect your opponents hand at all, after the cranial extraction hits they could potentially go crazy on their turn while you're tapped out. I would say that the jury is still out about the strength of cranial extraction in type I, although game winning against certain decks, many decks currently have the necessary elements to win despite a resolved extraction. I'll be very interested to see it in action.

[dicemanx]

For me its not really a question between Mind Twist and CE, as both cards are different enough that its not fair to have to choose between one or the other. I think I'd pick Mind Twist quite easily if I did have to make the choice.

[orgcandman]

as I said before, CE isn't an autowin. It's something to give you breathing room. Although, I've noticed against certain welder based decks, I have a much better shot of winning with CE around. IE: against control slaver in 4cc, I can CE the mindslaver, pentavus, 7/10 land-eater, THIRST FOR KNOWLEDGE, or any of the other spells it abuses.

CE is for breathing room. not singlehandedly winning. just like decks can come back from mind twist or balance (although rarely does this happen) decks should be able to come back against CE. You just capitalize on their "come back" time and hopefully outbroken them.

[Eastman]

Yah it's really not that good.

I'd certainly never maindeck it.

CE fights on an entirely different front then k.eeper is meant to.

There are two few slots in k.eeper and far too many better drain sinks then CE.

[Arkeld]

I'm certainly going to try one extraction main instead of the twist. They do pretty much the same thing: strip your opponent of resources without affecting the board. However, extraction has a few things going for it:

1) Resolving it is an autowin against certain decks. Yes, not many decks, granted, but even if you only win one matchup in a tourney outright because of it I'd say that's worth it.
2) It isn't randomly dead where twist can be, for instance when your opponent plays graveyard recursion or some kind of deck that empties its hand very quickly. It'll always nail the problem cards in your opponents deck.
3) It's psychologically more powerful than the twist. I expect that removing some key spell in an opponents deck will lead to them making mistakes as they struggle to play around not having said card or simply miscalculate because they're too used to having it)

Twist has always been a card I wan't too happy with in 4CC and every time somebody says how Hymn to Tourach is bad I can't help thinking that the Hymn is a Mind Twist for 2 cards that cost one less than an actual Twist.

[Charlie]

Why bother on an unplayable card? A 4cc Cabal Therapy that doesn't flashback, and if they don't already have it they won't draw it anyway 90% of the time. I'd rather want Mind Twist any day.

[MrZuccinniHead]

I can only think of one deck that this card would severely cripple - Dragon. Every other deck can still fight on after a resolved Extraction, which makes the card not worth it in my opinion, especially since it is such an expensive sorcery to begin with. I certainly wouldn't replace Mind Twist with it, although its really not fair to compare the two cards to each other. They are completely different forms of disruption.

Now here I have to disagree. Welder based decks need Welder, it's why they're Welder based, and why they show up in half of the slots of top eights over the last few months. Once losing their Welders a deck can still win, but it's slowed to a point to where any deck worth its own salt should be able to win anyways, and ones that don't, 4CC in this instance, have so many control goodies that the recursion offered by the Welder negated.

Welder-based decks can drop a welder right away though.

[andrewpate]

Exactly, and that's the key problem.  Would it be nice to go, "land, Lotus, CE" to Oath and they don't have Force of Will?  Sure.  Is that going to happen?  No.  And while I agree that you could somtimes force it through for Welder against Slaver and go a long way toward beating them, or that you could do a number on Hulk by grabbing Tog, I think that it needs to stay in the sideboard for now.  There just aren't enough decks where (playing MT for the same cost) grabbing all copies of one card is better than 3 random discards.  Maybe against a deck with lots of Draw7s, but it isn't any news that you generally want to counter those, now is it?

It's better than a Therapy for 4, but it is not MD material.