Tortoise Format: Challenge #3

[Nibble]

Not a very strong submission at the moment, but I figure I'll post it anyway and see if anyone can improve on it, since I think it's a fun concept:

Teferi's Isle
Ruins of Trokair
Gemstone Array
Psychic Allergy
Capsize
Donate
Nether Void

Play:
1 - Isle
2 - Ruins
3 - Sac Ruins, Array
5+7 - Charge Array
9 - Void
11-17 - Charge Array
19 - Donate Void

At this point, you need to play Psychic Allergy on your turn and Capsize it on their turn about 20 times, all under Nether Void. Playing Allergy 20 times requires 160 mana, and Capsize needs to be cast 19 times total, with Buyback paid 18 times, which comes to 168 mana. The Isle can be used every other turn when the win loop is initiated, so that covers 20 mana. This makes the charge counter requirement on the Array 308 before you can win.

    19 turns setup
+ (308 * 2) = 616 turns charging
+ 20 turns winning
-----------------------
655 turns to win.


Like I said, not too impressive, but perhaps someone can make improvements. A slower manabase, better Donate target than Void, something like that.

[combo_dude]

Damn, Psychic Allergy is a bad card... :lol:

My own latest brainstorming:

Pyromania
Gemstone Array
Soldevi Digger
Teferi's Isle*
Ruins of Trokair

+2 other cards

(By the way, if you want to use 2 Teferi's Isle in a deck for some reason, as long as one phases in as the other goes out, I'm fairly sure this works - Phasing is simultaneous and doesn't use the stack (so there's no change of priority, so SBE's aren't checked until Phasing finishes), and Phasing is a zone that isn't in play, so the Legend rule doesn't apply either.)

Obvious way of playing it out - use Ruins and Teferi's Isle to put Gemstone Array in play, then charge it up with Isle and let it make R to use Pyromania over and over again, Digging it back into your hand. With 2 other cards it must be able to be slower than this. Thoughts?

I'm pretty sure that the Gemstone Array/sac-land/Teferi's Isle is the slowest mana engine around at the moment.

[fadeblue]

Yeah, two Teferi's Isle's works, but it's of course just speeding up the deck unnecessarily...

Instead of Pyromania, you could try something like Furious Assault, combined with a creature you could never keep in play, such as Leviathan. You'd still have one extra slot, though, so I'm sure you could do better than that.

[combo_dude]

Actually, one trick I was experimenting with last night was using Disturbed Burial, Phyrexian Altar, Leviathan, and Soul Net/Test of Endurance for the win. Annoyingly, that doesn't leave room for a Gemstone Array mana engine, which is unfortunate, as a storage land engine would be quick.

Actually, Disturbed Burial, Altar of Dementia, Leviathan, Soul Net, Test of Endurance, Gemstone Array, and Dwarven Hold works well. Let's see:

4 turns to play Altar of Dementia
another 5 turns to play Gemstone Array
another 2 for Soul Net
and another 7 for Test of Endurance = 20 turns.

After that it requires 30 iterations of a "play Leviathan, sac, gain 1 life, return with Burial", which is 13+1+6+1 = 21*30 = 630; +20 + 1(to win); total of 651 turns.

Damn - I thought it would be slower than that.

EDIT: Is Pyromania/Skull of Orm slow enough? I doubt it would be slower than this setup in this deck, but it would give me extra cards to play with - that and the Array mana engine is enough to kill on its own. Food for thought - I'll get to work.

[Limbo]

In order to break this format, we need to determine 2 things, instead of spamming decklists:
What is the slowest (least card consuming) mana engine?
What is the slowest kill in this format?

The kill depends on the mana engine, as more cards for your kill means a slower kill.

I think that a mana engine any slower then this:
Black Lotus
Jeweled Amulet
Gemstone Array
Lava Tube
is hard to find. This creates 1 mana every 4 turns, using only 4 cards. This leaves 3 cards for the slowest upkeep using kill we can come up with.

After breaking cumulative upkeep in tortoise 1, I'd say the next most broken thing in tortoise is regular upkeep.

I don't think I can slow down the mana engine any more, but I did think of a card that is even slower then the epic struggle. Soulblast cost 2 more mana, adding 8 more turns to my kill, so my deck at the moment:

Black Lotus
Jeweled Amulet
Gemstone Array
Lava Tube
Soul Foundry
Peacekeeper
Soulblast

Highest turn total at the moment : 1780

[Ephraim]

Just a brief note - I think you have to use a different depletion land to get the full 1780 turns. As it is, you save at least two turns by using Lava Tube to generate one of the red mana to cast Soulblast.

I've come up with another kill that takes a long time to execute. Unfortunately, it takes 5 cards, leaving me with comparitively fast mana production.  However, even at that, it takes this deck more than 1100 turns to achieve the kill. If I could find a single buyback card that would return both Task Mage Assembly and Leviathan without being able to return Death Spark, I would have room at least for the Teferi's Isle/Black Lotus/Gemstone Array mana generation engine.

Mana Production
Icatian Store
Gemstone Array

Kill Mechanism
Death Spark
Leviathan
Task Mage Assembly
Disturbed Burial
Capsize

Note that with this mechanism, each generic mana takes one turn to generate and each [nonwhite] coloured mana takes two turns to generate.

Setup
1. Play Icatian Store
2-5. Accumulate storage counters.
6. Play Gemstone Array

First Damage
Cast Death Spark (R - 2 turns)
Cast Leviathan (5UUUU - 13 turns)
Cast Task Mage Assembly (2R - 4 turns)
Deal 10 damage to Leviathan with Task Mage Assembly (20 - 20 turns)
Respond to Task Mage Assembly's triggered sacrifice effect by Capsizing it (4UU - 8 turns)
Wait one turn (1 turn)
Recover Death Spark during upkeep (1 - 1 turn)

total number of turns: 2 + 14 + 4 + 22 + 1 + 1  =  49 turns

Subsequent Damage
Wait one turn (1 turn) (this is because the Icatian Store is tapped during the previous turn's upkeep to get Death Spark, making it unavailable for mana generation to cast Disturbed Burial. One turn is fewer than the 4 extra turns it would take to charge the Gemstone Array to perform all recoveries in one turn)
Cast Disturbed Burial with buyback to recover Leviathan (4B - 6 turns)
Cast Death Spark (R - 2 turns)
Cast Leviathan (5UUUU - 14 turns)
Cast Task Mage Assembly (2R - 4 turns)
Deal 10 damage to Leviathan with Task Mage Assembly (20 - 20 turns)
Respond to Task Mage Assembly's triggered sacrifice effect by Capsizing it (4UU - 8 turns)
Wait one turn (1 turn)
Recover Death Spark during upkeep (1 - 1 turn)

total number of turns: 1 + 6 + 5 + 2 + 14 + 4 + 22 + 1 + 1 = 56 turns / damage

total number of turns to kill: 6 + 49 + (56 x 19) = 1119

[Limbo]

Just a brief note - I think you have to use a different depletion land to get the full 1780 turns. As it is, you save at least two turns by using Lava Tube to generate one of the red mana to cast Soulblast.

I already corrected my number of turns for the assumption that I use the Lava Tube for the casting of some Peacekeepers and Soulblast. I may be off 2 turns in the positive or negative way though. Someone care to check my calculation?

[theorigamist]

Nevermind.  I suck at math.

[fadeblue]

I found a pretty slow kill using a storage land. The idea was to abuse the Capsize/Celestial Prism engine I had come up with earlier, and using it for a spell with lots of colored mana.

sand silos
celestial prism
capsize

sigil of the new dawn
moonlit wake
vaevictis asmadi
test of endurance

It takes 32 turns to bring out Celestial Prism, Sigil of the New Dawn, Moonlit Wake, and Test of Endurance. After that, it takes 59 mana to wash enough mana to play Vaevictis, and 3 mana on the next turn to get Vaevictis back. So a cycle is 62 turns charging mana (only 59 turns on the last cycle), one turn to play Vaevictis, and one turn to gain 1 life and return Vaevictis to my hand (I don't return it on my last one). After doing this cycle 30 times, I then need an extra turn to win.

So 32 + 64*29 + 61 + 1 = 1950 turns.

Still, Limbo has the best idea so far for non-storage lands. I think he has the right idea in first identifying the slowest mana engine, and then the slowest kill.

EDIT: Limbo, you can actually add 2 more turns to your deck if you play with Crystal Vein instead of Black Lotus.

[theorigamist]

Wow, that three-card storage land mana thing is really slow.  A quick note: if you could find a four card kill that only needs one color mana besides blue, then you could use the appropriate mana battery to be 1 turn per mana slower.

[virtual]

So here's some more tech for that slow mana engine...


Diamond Kaleidoscope... is better than gemstone array... depending on your kill condition...  it gives you a bunch of extra creatures which might screw it up, but at least you can slow down the Soulblast kill.

More thoughts to come perchance....

here's my initial list of potential breakables in this format... I'll try to mention ones that aren't well known...
Draco
Forbidden Orchard
Cosmic Horror
Trade Caravan
Mana Cache
and Diamond Kaleidoscope

-Virtual

[jro]

I've been working on breaking Diamond Kaleidoscope all night.  Here's an oblique strategy:

Mana
Peat Bog (or any other Masques depletion land)
Soldevi Digger
Diamond Kaleidoscope
Black Lotus

Kill
Leviathan
Lightning Coils
Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale[/list:u]

The idea is to have the Leviathan die 10 times, making Lightning Coils trigger twice, yielding 30 attacking damage.  The only way to kill the Leviathan is to not pay his upkeep from Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale.  But, the only way to store enough mana to cast the Leviathan again is as Prism tokens from the Kaliedoscope.  Since the tokens are creatures, too, they also have to pay upkeep to the Tabernacle.  So to have 10 tokens this turn, you need to have had 20 tokens last turn.

Assuming you cast the Leviathan in back to back turns so as to minimize this effect, I calculate you need about 4085 tokens on the turn you play the Tabernacle.  This is based on the idea that most turns will use 11 mana-- 2 during upkeep to dig him under, and then 9 during main phase to cast him. I cut 5 mana from the last cycle, assuming that that's the best time to use the Black Lotus and Peat Bog, and 2 from the second to last, which should be the second best time to use Peat Bog.

Using the Peat Bog, Digger, Black Lotus engine it takes 4 turns to make a Prism token.  That's 16,340 turns to make the Prism tokens for use under the Tabernacle.  I counted about 53 turns for Setup, casting the first Leviathan, getting Lotus and Peat Bog back into play, dropping the Tabernacle, and finally doing the Leviathan loop and attacking with the Coils tokens.  That's a total of 16,393.

Note that Lightning Coils only triggers on non-token creatures, to prevent it from triggering itself.

Here's a kind of sloppy turn-by-turn outline.  I'd clean it up, but I need to sleep:

Code:

peat
digger
dig peat, peat
lotus, peat+lotus->kaledioscope, burn for 1
dig peat, peat
dig lotus
dig peat, peat
lotus, lotus->coils
dig peat, peat
dig lotus
dig peat, peat
repeat 4089 times //4085 for tokens needed after vale
 {
 lotus, lotus->charge kaleidoscope
 dig peat, peat
 dig lotus
 dig peat, peat
 }
lotus+peat+tokens.4->leviathan
dig peat, peat
dig lotus
dig peat, peat
tabernacle
leviathan dies, charge on coils, dig leviathan, draw leviathan, cast leviathan
leviathan dies, charge on coils, dig leviathan, draw leviathan, cast leviathan
leviathan dies, charge on coils, dig leviathan, draw leviathan, cast leviathan
leviathan dies, charge on coils, dig leviathan, draw leviathan, cast leviathan
leviathan dies, charge on coils, dig leviathan, draw leviathan, cast leviathan
coils pops, leviathan dies, charge on coils, dig leviathan, draw leviathan, cast leviathan, attack for 15 //stack tricks to save a turn
leviathan dies, charge on coils, dig leviathan, draw leviathan, cast leviathan
leviathan dies, charge on coils, dig leviathan, draw leviathan, cast leviathan
leviathan dies, charge on coils, dig leviathan, draw leviathan, cast leviathan
leviathan dies, charge on coils
coils pops, attack for 15
Prism tokens under Tabernacle = 6*2^8+9*2^7+11*(2^6+2^5+2^4+2^3+2^2+2^1+2^0) = 4085
Total Turns = 16,393

Phew!  Okay, now comes the part where someone tells me why this doesn't work.  Incidentally, if it does work, I'd like to point out how the mana engine and the kill engine are intertwined; while considering each separately is valuable, really breaking anything requires thinking about the synergies of all of your cards.

EDIT: Ack.  I think it is messed up, but only to require more turns.  I think you might need 20 mana each turn rather than 11.  Once the Tabernacle triggers, you need 18 Prism tokens, so you can sac half of them to keep the others around until your main phase.  You need 2 more Prism tokens which you can sac during your upkeep to float mana to dig the Leviathan during upkeep.  But now I really need to sleep, so I'm not thinking about it anymore.

[CaptainPlanet.dec]

So here's some more tech for that slow mana engine...


Diamond Kaleidoscope... is better than gemstone array... depending on your kill condition...  it gives you a bunch of extra creatures which might screw it up, but at least you can slow down the Soulblast kill.

More thoughts to come perchance....

here's my initial list of potential breakables in this format... I'll try to mention ones that aren't well known...
Draco
Forbidden Orchard
Cosmic Horror
Trade Caravan
Mana Cache
and Diamond Kaleidoscope

-Virtual

I've been working with Draco, but it doesnt work with Batteries. Get 46, play it, pay upkeep, attack, oay upkeep and attack

[Limbo]

Captainplanet : Attacking with any creature other then a cocooned sustaining spirit is pointless, you will kill way to quickly. Any wincondition will need to be a wacky combo between non critters, that may be fueled bu creatures that cant attack.

jro : My compliments, that kill looks really promising, lets see if we can slow it down some more

The part that looks most awesome :
Peat Bog (or any other Masques depletion land)
Soldevi Digger
Diamond Kaleidoscope
Black Lotus
Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Maybe we can slow down on the leviathan / lightning coils kill.

[theorigamist]

Limbo, I think CaptainPlanet was saying that Draco doesn't work well because you can attack with it.  In other words, you two agree.

[Limbo]

I am not saying draco cannot work, I am just saying you need to make sure it can't attack. So for example a mana engine based on serra's sanctum and 2 katabatic winds would allow you to use the draco. Not that this example is a particular strong choice, but just suggesting that plain out casting draco is not the way to go. It is however, the card with the highest upkeep available, so from that point of view we can consider adding it in a deck.

Edit: Btw, how will we declare a certain deck the slowest in tortoise 3? In tortoise 1 I think we could be pretty sure it was the slowest kill ever possible, chaining the highest cumulative upkeeps into a kill. In this format however, we were all developing decks nearing 2000 turns, when jro just pops out with a 16K turn development. How far can we go with this one?

[Alfred]

I find that one of the best ways to get higher numbers in tortoise is to bury mana. You do this by making the original color of mana go through various filters in order to get the mana you need. A good example of this is using leviathan and phyrexian altar. I would try to bury this even further, by making the blue mana that is needed to cast leviathan harder to get, possibly through Blue Mana Battery.

Leviathan
Blue Mana Battery
Phyrexian Altar
Disturbed Burial
Subterranean Hangar
2 card kill that requires an upkeep of W, R or G

Another idea I've had is attempting to abuse draco. I think that if there was a way to imprint draco onto soul foundry to get an epic struggle win, without it attacking it would be a winner. Someone help me out here.

[fadeblue]

Wow, jro, that's genius. I've been trying to get Tabernacle to work, but the best I could do is a 6-card deck that takes a couple thousand turns:

icatian store
tabernacle at pendrell vale
caribou range
altar of shadows
slaughter
tendrils of agony

I had earlier set Kaleidoscope aside because I was looking at slowdown through mana washing, and I had been focusing on Caribou Range because I couldn't think of any other way to force Tabernacle into play. Leviathan + Lightning Coils is certainly a leap of genius right there.

[virtual]

"Ok...

Thanks to jpo for breaXoring diamond kaleidoscope with tabernacle...

I took it further...  I'm not sure about the mana engine below... if we can make it suck even further (but with no lands), then this can get much worse...

[card]Animal Boneyard[/card] or [card]Farmstead[/card] (I don't know which one is slower, probably Farmstead)
[card]Test of Endurance[/card]
[card]The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale[/card]
[card]Diamond Kaleidoscope[/card]
[card]Black Lotus[/card]
[card]Soldevi Digger[/card]
[card]Sol Ring[/card]

Code:

Loop goes something like this:

cast lotus, digger, sol ring, use ring to recover lotus
cast lotus, kaleidoscope
for Some Large amount of turns
    recover lotus, cast it, and make a token

Cast Test of Endurance

Play Tabernacle, and cast Farmstead on it...
Pay the upkeep of farmstead for lots of turns

Hmmm... ok that doesn't work actually because you can end up paying for the farmstead with the lotus only, and no creatures...

Can you guys help fix this mana engine?  Is there a colorless lotus =)

It needs to be a landless engine... the bOrkenness comes because we Have only the prism tokens for colored mana, and we kill by keeping tabernacle in play for some ungodly amount of turns... pretty much recreating cumulative upkeep in a creative way...

Keep it up, so we can move on to Tortise 5 =D

Edit:  

Update:
An interesting mana engine is as follows:

[card]The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale[/card]
[card]Mana Cache[/card]
[card]Black Lotus[/card]
[card]Diamond Kaleidoscope[/card]

This takes 3*n + n(n+1)/2 turns for every colored mana required for the kill... That can be slowed down significantly because we have exponential growth, if the kill condition requires lots of mana over an extended period of turns...

Soul Foundry, Upkeep Creature, Soulblast... hmmm

Ok yea that works...

[card]The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale[/card]
[card]Mana Cache[/card]
[card]Black Lotus[/card]
[card]Diamond Kaleidoscope[/card]
[card]PeaceKeeper[/card]
[card]Soul Foundry[/card]
[card]Soulblast[/card]

I actually don't really want to try to calculate how many turns this will take

-Virtual

[thorme]

Limbo, I think CaptainPlanet was saying that Draco doesn't work well because you can attack with it.  In other words, you two agree.

Here's my best attempt to prove you fellas wrong.

1 Mishra's Workshop
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Gemstone Array
1 Soul Foundry
1 Draco
1 Epic Struggle


Turn 1:  Workshop, Academy, Ensnaring Bridge
Turn 2:  Tap Workshop, Academy for Gemstone Array
Turns 3-x :  Add a counter to Array
Turn x + 1:  Tap Workshop, Academy for Soul Foundry.  Using Array,   activate Foundry for 1 Draco (16 mana)
Turn x + 2:  Tap Academy for 3+1(-4).  Pay 10*1 for Draco(+10).  Activate Soul Foundry to create Draco (+16).
Turn  x + 3: Tap Academy for 3+2(-5).  Pay 10*2 for Dracos(+20).  Activate Soul Foundry to create Draco (+16).
...
Turn x + 20:  Tap Academy for 3+19(-22).  Pay 10*19 for Dracos(+190).  Activate Foundry for Draco (+16).  Cast Epic Struggle through Array(+4).


Based on my back-of-a-napkin calculations, this should kill around turn 2160.


- Edited for bad math

[combo_dude]

I slowed my deck down a lot with Timberline Ridge, Havenwood Battleground, and High Market replacing the mana and Soul Net, but this is nothing compared to the utter monstrosity that jro created. That's just obscene.

@thorme - weren't you working on that at the end of Tortoise 2?

[theorigamist]

Can somebody tell me how the Digger, Peat Bog, Kaleidoscope, Black Lotus takes four turns per mana?

Assume Kaleidoscope in play, Lotus in GY, Peat Bog in hand, Digger in play:

T1: Play Peat Bog tapped.
T2: Untap, upkeep, Digger the Lotus, draw Lotus, play it and use it to create a token.
T3: Untap, upkeep use Bog, sac it, Digger it, draw it, play it again.
T4: Untap, upkeep Digger the Lotus, etc.

So you should get a mana every two turns like this.  So, basically, I don't know how many turns of jro's was just mana production, but it should be that number of turns divided by 2.  It's still a ridiculous deck, though.

[jro]

Thanks to everyone for the compliments.  As virtual says, the sweet thing is that it's like emulating cumulative upkeep.

Can somebody tell me how the Digger, Peat Bog, Kaleidoscope, Black Lotus takes four turns per mana?

Oops, it doesn't.  Just two turns.  My turn calculation should be corrected for that and the issue I mention in my edit, but virtual's new deck destroys this anyway, so I'm going to calculate that instead.

[fadeblue]

Although jro's deck was ridiculous (even if it's only one mana each 2 turns), it just got trumped by virtual's deck. This is what I got:

9 turns to play vale, cache, kaleidoscope, and foundry
21896 turns to charge cache
193 turns making prism tokens (using up 19113 mana)
19 more turns putting Peacekeepers into play and casting the win condition.

This would give 22117 turns.

EDIT: Oops, I didn't realize Soulblast is combined power. So the deck works as is.

[ReAnimator]

I’m not a mathlete so I can’t calculate this without a bunch of effort however this is an idea I had for a really slow life gain engine:

1) Off colour storage land
2) Gemstone array
3) Reito Lantern (the slower digger)
4) Test of endurance
5) Leviathan  
6) Crystal rod /or soulnet (is there something better/worse than this?)
7) Fevered Convulsions

So you need to kill or cast leviathan 50 times for the win and once it is in play the only way to get rid of it is to Convulsion it a bunch then lantern it back on top draw it next turn and repeat. Its probably not nearly as slow as the Cache deck but it is expensive and quite slow 53 total mana a turn once it "goes off" and 23 of that needs to be coloured mana for 50 turns, after set up Its probably around 5000 turns or so but I'm really bad at math. If some one wants to calculate that would be awesome or if there is something obvious i am missing that would slow this down
 

[jro]

Hmm... my calculations for the number of turns on virtual's Tabernacle deck gives me 15665 turns.  Most of the difference between fadeblue's calculations and mine comes from the fact that I figure you only need 155 (= 17*18/2 + 2) Prism tokens at maximum instead of 193 (= 19*20/2 + 3).  Basically, this is because you can make Prisms while you are making the Peacekeepers, which saves you lots of cost from Tabernacle upkeeps for Prisms.

I'll go back and re-calculate the turns for my deck, since it seems the two of these might be close.  The biggest difference between the two decks is that my deck must use the Prism counters to pay the Prism upkeep, which is what makes it like cumulative upkeep.  Virtual's deck also has Mana Cache to store mana, so the upkeep for the Prisms can be paid that way.  Each of virtual's Prisms require a total upkeep equal to the number of upkeeps it must survive.  My prisms require 2*(2^(N-1)) turns for each upkeep they must survive.  Since virtual's Prisms must survive much longer than mine, he winds up with a similar (I think) total number of turns.

Here's my calculations for virtual's deck in space-delimited format.  You can actually plug these into a spreadsheet and replace some of the numbers with formulas to see if it works out.

Code:

A = Counters on Mana Cache at start of turn
B = Prisms tokens at start of turn
C = Colored mana used that turn
D = Colorless mana used that turn
Action Key:  A->B = cast B using mana from A
             A.N = count of A
             Taber = Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
             Peace = Peacekeeper token

A      B       C       D        Action
                                Black Lotus->Mana Cache, Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1                               Do nothing
2                               Do nothing
~                               ...continue for 14498 turns
14500                   11      4->Soul Foundry, 4->Diamond Kaliedoscope, 3->Prisms.1
14490   1               4       1->Taber.Prisms, 3->Prisms.2
14487   2               5       2->Taber.Prisms, 3->Prisms.3
~                       11775   ...continue for 139 turns
2712    152             155     152->Taber.Prisms, 3->Prisms.153
2558    153             156     153->Taber.Prisms, 3->Prisms.154
2403    154             160     154->Taber.Prisms, 3->Prisms.155, 3->Peaces.1
2244    155     1       162     W+1->Peace, 1->Taber.Peaces, 154->Taber.Prisms, 3->Peaces.2, 3->Prisms.155
2083    155     2       163     2W+2->Peace, 2->Taber.Peaces, 153->Taber.Prisms, 3->Peaces.3, 3->Prisms.154
1921    154     3       163     3W+3->Peace, 3->Taber.Peaces, 151->Taber.Prisms, 3->Peaces.4, 3->Prisms.152
1759    152     4       162     4W+4->Peace, 4->Taber.Peaces, 148->Taber.Prisms, 3->Peaces.5, 3->Prisms.149
1598    149     5       160     5W+5->Peace, 5->Taber.Peaces, 144->Taber.Prisms, 3->Peaces.6, 3->Prisms.145
1439    145     6       157     6W+6->Peace, 6->Taber.Peaces, 139->Taber.Prisms, 3->Peaces.7, 3->Prisms.140
1283    140     7       153     7W+7->Peace, 7->Taber.Peaces, 133->Taber.Prisms, 3->Peaces.8, 3->Prisms.134
1131    134     8       148     8W+8->Peace, 8->Taber.Peaces, 126->Taber.Prisms, 3->Peaces.9, 3->Prisms.127
984     127     9       142     9W+9->Peace, 9->Taber.Peaces, 118->Taber.Prisms, 3->Peaces.10, 3->Prisms.119
843     119     10      135     10W+10->Peace, 10->Taber.Peaces, 109->Taber.Prisms, 3->Peaces.11, 3->Prisms.110
709     110     11      127     11W+11->Peace, 11->Taber.Peaces, 99->Taber.Prisms, 3->Peaces.12, 3->Prisms.100
583     100     12      118     12W+12->Peace, 12->Taber.Peaces, 88->Taber.Prisms, 3->Peaces.13, 3->Prisms.89
466     89      13      108     13W+13->Peace, 13->Taber.Peaces, 76->Taber.Prisms, 3->Peaces.14, 3->Prisms.77
359     77      14      97      14W+14->Peace, 14->Taber.Peaces, 63->Taber.Prisms, 3->Peaces.15, 3->Prisms.64
263     64      15      85      15W+15->Peace, 15->Taber.Peaces, 49->Taber.Prisms, 3->Peaces.16, 3->Prisms.50
179     50      16      72      16W+16->Peace, 16->Taber.Peaces, 34->Taber.Prisms, 3->Peaces.17, 3->Prisms.35
108     35      17      58      17W+17->Peace, 17->Taber.Peaces, 18->Taber.Prisms, 3->Peaces.18, 3->Prisms.19
51      19      18      43      18W+18->Peace, 18->Taber.Peaces, 1->Taber.Prisms, 3->Peaces.19, 3->Prisms.2
9       2       3       9       3->Prisms.3, 3->Peaces.20, 3R+3->Soulblast 

15665 turns

[fadeblue]

Hmmm, yeah. I didn't think of that. I'll take your word on that number since I was doing my calculations mostly by hand and I don't want to have to figure out how to account for making Prism tokens during the Peacekeeper building...

jro, if your engine only takes 2 turns for token generation, doesn't that cut your turn count in half almost? I don't remember exactly, but I thought most of your turns came from token generation.

[jro]

Okay, here's the new calculation for my Tabernacle deck: 14,327 turns.  I lost a lot of turns because my mana loop is 2 turns, not 4, but I gained a bunch back because I calculated how many prism tokens I would need incorrectly.  Or at least I think I did.  I now think this require 7148 prism tokens once the Tabernacle hits play.  I determined this through trial and error, using the formula that the tokens available for the next turn equals the tokens available this turn minus those used during upkeep divided by 2. ( Tokens.t+1 = (Tokens.t - upkeep used tokens) / 2 )  Here's a spreadsheet where I did the math:

Code:

A = number of prism tokens at start of turn
B = number used during upkeep
C = number used during main phase
D = mana from other sources

A      B  C  D  upkeep                        main
                                              cast leviathan, lotus, peat
                                              tabernacle
 7148  2  9     prisms.2->dig.Leviathan, coilsprisms.9->Leviathan
 3564  2  9     prisms.2->dig.Leviathan, coilsprisms.9->Leviathan
 1772  2  9     prisms.2->dig.Leviathan, coilsprisms.9->Leviathan
  876  2  9     prisms.2->dig.Leviathan, coilsprisms.9->Leviathan
  428  2  9     prisms.2->dig.Leviathan, coilsprisms.9->Leviathan
  204  2  9     prisms.2->dig.Leviathan, coilsprisms.9->Leviathan
   92  2  9     prisms.2->dig.Leviathan, coilsprisms.9->Leviathan
   36  2  7  2  prisms.2->dig.Leviathan, coilsprisms.7+peat->Leviathan
   10  2  4  5  prisms.2->dig.Leviathan, coilsprisms.4+peat+lotus->Leviathan
    0      coils.5
           coils.pops

14,327 turns = (7148 tokens for tabernacle + 4 tokens for first Leviathan) * 2 turns / token + 23 turns for setup

[virtual]

@ReAnimator

Test of Endurance is if you have 50 life, and you start with 20, so unfortunately it's only a feat of 30 actions (assuming 1 pt/action)

@jro, etc.

I can't seem to figure out a way to get rid of my colorless mana producer.  Or any way to make Tabernacle require colored mana instead of non-colored.  Etc... Dunno how to make mine slower... I've racked my  brain over it...

As a side note... the kill isn't great, but with 3 cards, you can use Flowstone wall, Enduring renewal, and the storm spell that gives +1/+2, (or the one that does 1 damage to any target), to get a fairly mana intensive kill... 7Red and 2 colorless *19 I think.  

-Virtual

[CaptainPlanet.dec]

Mercardian Bazaar
Gemstone Array
Leviathan
Leviathan
Mavolent Awakeing
Soul Net
Test of Endurence

I'll do the math when I get home later tonight.