Type One, power, reprints, and YOU!

[Sagath]

Dont know how many other tmd'ers are DCI judges, I know there is a few.

Lately I have been doing some research on promos, and the promo/reprint  policy leave a little to be desired for clarity. This is the Official reprint policy for your referance. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=magic/products/ReprintPolicy

Under the 'Special-Purpose Reprints' Category the following is written;

All policies described in this document apply only to non-premium, tournament-legal Magic cards.

Non-premium means non foil, does this mean wizards can (if they wish) reprint foil versions of the Reserved List?

and under 'Reserved Policy';

Reserved cards will never be printed again in a functionally identical form. A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness

This doesnt seem to leave room for 'openings', but the wording isnt exactly the clearest.

I was reading the daily judges list, as occasionally there is some good tidbits in there, when I came up across this.

From:    Dmitriy Brin <dbrin1984@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Promos

Does wizards have any specific policy about what T1 cards it reprints as
special promos?  It seems like the magic community has been very happy with
staple cards such as Accumulated Knowledge, Balance, and Brainstorm being
reprinted in limited quantities recently.

In my opinion they should continue this trend of making playable promos all
the way up to the power 9.  As more and more people are attracted to T1, the
demand for key cards greatly outweighs supply.    To my knowledge, fewer
than 24,000 of each power card were ever printed.  In the 11 years since
unlimited, a good number of those became lost and destroyed.  Casually
leaking 5000 or so more sets of power over a few years will not hurt the
current market price of power (even if it slows the growth of these prices a
bit).  It will, however, make a lot of players happy.  I think PTQ
attendance rates will increase significantly if the top 4 places got a promo
mox sapphire.

I am not suggesting making power 9 into FNM prizes; however I do believe
that distributing them as prizes for premier events will make a lot of
people happy at almost no cost to wizards.

What do you people think? Can/will this happen?
Dmitriy Brin, Level 1 - Brooklyn, NY

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:03:28 -0800
From:    "Heckt, Andy" <Andy.Heckt@WIZARDS.COM>
Subject: Re: Promos

Dmitriy,

Our policy on this matter is not public.
Opinions are fine - and we are reading.

Andy

The First sentance of Andy's reply is disheartening. The fact that wizards will not disclose their policy on something that they apparently DO have public is troubling but thats not the kicker. The last sentance caught me aback. Its not much, but it definatly speaks volumes for its shortness. 'and we are reading' Does that mean they are watching and debating? Is it possible to see Foil Power reprinted in the future? The fact is, they are listening and watching.

I'm not trying to stir the pot. This is honestly ment to voice what you - the Type One Community of the WORLD - have to say on this matter. Wizards may be watching, and may take what you say to the bank. Please keep it resonable and organized.

My personal feelings on this are crossed. As a player with a vast cardbase, I like watching the value of them rise. In the same regards, I know that the market could one day crash, but I dont care as the investment has allready been made. The player side of me (as the Vintage crowd are all collecters and players) would love to try to win a promo reprint. Who Wouldnt? Generally if they keep the influx low, I feel its a good idea. (and dont forget that all the judges should be the first to get a Foil Black Lotus )

What I dont want to see is reprints of Vintage cards in FNM scenes. Some cards should be out of reach of the every day crowd. I dont want to see Foil Hyppies for example, for FNM prizes.

I say do it, have quarterly major tounaments, maybe to coincide with pro tour stops in North America, and a few in Europe.

In the end, would anyone have really objected if Carl won a true Foil Black Lotus at Gencon for his hardwork? I wouldnt.

[Machinus]

Wizards doesn't really make money off Type I. They gain some kind of marginal security by having a final market for their cards, and yes they have been appealing us slightly more in the last year or two, but what we are talking about here is something that would require a lot more attention - money - than I think they are willing to provide.

WotC would benefit the most from offering promo moxes as prizes for two reasons. One, they know that printing power is a lot of free money for them, and they can do whatever they want, so this could happen in some dark future for magic. But the second reason is that they would want to print promos of Type I cards to encourage people to play with them. There is only one place to play with them, and WotC doesn't benefit from that environment. They aren't going to influence players to leave the boundaries of their successful money making machine.

[Sagath]

I dont know, if by giving out a Foil Mox for First place at a PT stop, that would pull people away from Standard, Block or Limited. People are still going to play for the Prize and Glory. What better prize and glory is there then owning  a foil lotus? Not only that, but it would probably draw more people to PT stops that may or may not play Limited or Standard.

Hell, I dont play standard (I hate rock paper scissors. Standard is more of a coinflip then Vintage EVER was), but I do play limited. I would attend a PT standard event for a prize like that.

[Hi-Val]

I can guarantee you that they will never reprint power. They'll change their rules if they have to so they make it perfectly clear.

HOWEVER

As we have seen, Wizards has been reprinting cards that are useful in Extended, as well as Balance, which I think was done for flavor reasons (judges and all..). I do forsee in the future something like Gorilla Shaman or another T1 staple foiled. Nothing big, but just $20 cards that the most. Yawg Will, being the most freaking goodest card ever and sitting at around $5, makes a good case for foiling up cards just for T1 players.

When I talked to Forsythe at SCG2, he said that foils have to be printed in runs of at least 500 or so. That means that specialty runs like foil power for T8s at GenCon is out of the question for the most part : \

[LotusHead]

Has anybody determined with confidence exactly how many power 9 pieces have been printed? This includes Alpha/Beta/Unlimited.

In my hometown, and pretty much everywhere I've been, I have been the only one to have traded for power back in the day and kept them, as opposed to say, buying back on Ebay or actually winning a Power tourney or two.

The local scrubs want to know...how many Black Lotuses are there, anyway? (the last number I remember was like 50k or so, but I don't remember where that number came from.)

I would be as happy as ".........." if they somehow reprinted Power cards, but only because I just traded other cards for them 10 years ago.

[rvs]

The local scrubs want to know...how many Black Lotuses are there, anyway? (the last number I remember was like 50k or so, but I don't remember where that number came from.)

Because of Ironman, it's hard to tell.

[andrewpate]

I dont know, if by giving out a Foil Mox for First place at a PT stop, that would pull people away from Standard, Block or Limited. People are still going to play for the Prize and Glory. What better prize and glory is there then owning  a foil lotus? Not only that, but it would probably draw more people to PT stops that may or may not play Limited or Standard.

True, it would certainly be a draw to tournament participation.  The problem is that Wizards doesn't make as much money off Type 1 players as it gets from Standard and especially Limited players.  If you grab that foil Lotus, maybe you start trying Vintage so you can actually use it.  If you do that, maybe you say, "Hey, wait, I can actually innovate and still win... and there are more than 3 decks!  Man, forget that Standard crap."  So you buy Mana Drains on the secondary market and bust out that foil Lotus and foil Sapphire you picked up off the PTQ and use your existing Extended pool to build a Monoblue deck and Wizards just lost several hundred dollars a year of your money.  Granted, some might just sell them on eBay or use them as a Big Shiney in their binders, but PTQs are crowded already and reprints wouldn't really be that lucrative for Wizards.  If they should ever do it (which they won't), it will be for some other reason.

[Azhrei]

Has anybody determined with confidence exactly how many power 9 pieces have been printed? This includes Alpha/Beta/Unlimited.

21,000 of each were printed, the same as every ABU rare.

18,000 Workshops and I believe 19,000 LoAs.

I might be jumbling those numbers around, but approximately 20,000 is a safe answer.

[DEA]

   Alpha        1,100 sets
   Beta        3,200 sets
   Limited      4,300 sets (Alpha+Beta mix)
        Int. Collector's  5,000 sets
        Collector's      10,000 sets
   Unlimited    18,500 sets
   Legends       19,500 sets
   Arabian Nights    20,500 sets
   Antiquities    31,000 sets

from crystalkeep
that'll make 22,800 sets of power, 20,500 libraries, and 7,750 playsets of workshops

give or take

[vroman]

what would be especially bitchin is full art textless reprints of some of the classic but inexpensive restricted cards. ie tinker, d.tutor, sol ring, etc.

[andrewpate]

I would estimate that idea being much more plausible than foil power.

[Revvik]

I'm not sure if I'm blind or not, but I checked over the reserved list:

Living Plane            Legends
Livonya Silone        Legends
Mana Matrix            Legends
Master of the Hunt   Legends
Mirror Universe       Legends
Moat                      Legends
Mold Demon           Legends
Nether Void            Legends

Aren't we missing Mana Drain on that list?  Because that would be friggin' odd indeed.

[dawn8]

...and foil power would be (at least I assume i would) with new corrected text and new card layout. Which, in my opinion, would be lame.   A lotus that looks like a Kamigawa card just wouldn't be that nice.

[PittSoothSayer]

Aren't we missing Mana Drain on that list?  Because that would be friggin' odd indeed.

The Reserved List covers only Rares from older expansions.  Mana Drain, despite the $100 price tag, is actually an Uncommon.  Thus it is not on the reserved list.  However, MaRo has been quoted as saying "All of R&D would have to be run over by a bus before we reprinted Mana Drain," so i wouldn't hold out any hope for a reprint.

[Revvik]

Well, then, now I just have to get them all in one place  :lol:  despite having spent over $200 on drains this year alone already.

[Aaron]

I, for one, wouldn't really care either way. If they actually reprinted some cards, I think many would jump on the bandwagon to try to get the old ones at a discount, and therefore push the price back up, at least in the short run.

If Wizards wanted to reprint some Power but not at all affect the value of the old cards, they could print butt-ugly Power with no art, perhaps. That way, it would be easily accessible, but any serious player would still want the original.

Or they could just make the Collector's Edition legal.

Just some thoughts.  

[mogote]

   ...
   Arabian Nights    20,500 sets
   Antiquities    31,000 sets

from crystalkeep
that'll make 22,800 sets of power, 20,500 libraries, and 7,750 playsets of workshops

give or take

Just to correct this: Library is U3 (at least to my information)

A quote from crystalkeep.com again:
"31,000  Arabian U3 -or- Arabian C1"

So theoretically there should be 31,000 Libraries and 7,750 Bazaar playsets in existence.


I don't think that they will reprint P9 as promotional cards although I won't say 'never'.

[Jacob Orlove]

Moved to basic community.

[jpmeyer]

Does anyone know what kind of print runs judge foils have?

[Raven Fire]

what would be especially bitchin is full art textless reprints of some of the classic but inexpensive restricted cards. ie tinker, d.tutor, sol ring, etc.

I agree that Sol Ring would make an amazing textless card, but unfortunately WotC has stated that textless cards (at least the 5 promos through MPR) will not be permanents.  I guess the Unhinged lands are OK because standard basic lands don't have any text on them anyway.  Also, they want the textless cards to be T2 legal, so they decided against StP for the white reward card.     At least Oxidize sees Vintage play.

Dream List of Textless Cards (T1 uncommons/commons):
Red = Lightning Bolt
Green = Regrowth
Blue = Force of Will (or Brainstorm if that's too much)
Black = Demonic Tutor
White = Swords to Plowshares

Beyond Dreamworthy = Timewalk and Ancestral Recall  :lol:

[majestyk1136]

If making money were the issue (which of course, it is) then it would be a slam dunk, no brainer for R&D to reprint power in a limited fashion... Of course they would put stipulations on the reprinted stuff "you can't play it in standard or extended, blah blah blah..." This stuff would sell out so fast due to the explosive demand for Vintage cards that there is absolutely no way that they could lose money.  Fully powered players might not jump at the opportunity to buy this stuff, but people owning no power would spring at it.  Done in limited quantities the value of the original power would hold or perhaps even go up (see Underworld Dreams) due to the influx of players that vintage would suddenly see.  

So obviously, making money is not the primary motivation here.  There's something else at work here and my suspicion is that it is the fact that R&D sort of lives in horror of the brokenness that they've unleashed in the past and they would rather sweep it under the rug and feed it scraps occasionally to keep it at bay instead of dealing with it in a substantive manner.

Just my $0.02.

[Whitdjinn]

I have brought it up before at different places, and others have too, that it would definately benefit wizards to reprint gold-bordered non-tourney legal decks from say the t8 of gencon t1 champions, similar to how they do the world champions decks now.  This would do several things.

1) Be the highest selling gold-bordered decks in wizards history.

2) Raise awareness of Vintage in the entire Magic Community.

3) Provide easy ways for current Vintage players to throw decks together for playtesting.

4) Provide a nice looking proxy for any who would want to partake in non-sanctioned proxy tournaments, which is arguably the most common type of vintage tournament right now.

5) This /would/ create additional income for wizards not only by selling the decks themselves, but would also bring to light that many cards that are IN PRINT today are needed to be competative in t2. (from curiosity to Sundering Titan, Triskelion, etc)


I truely think, while not in the ammount that standard may, the rising awareness or activity in any given format is always a good thing for the game in general, and I have to think that Wizards would want that.

Whit

[jdl]

Fully powered players might not jump at the opportunity to buy this stuff, but people owning no power would spring at it.

I play with full Beta power (except for an UL Time Walk).  I would buy a metric asston of a reprint set that included P9, Library, Workshop, Mana drain, etc.  I'd be willing to pay in full for at least a case of this before the set was even printed.

Wizards doesn't make much off Type I, because of the choices they made.  They could be making loads of cash from it.  So what if it's a broken format.  Let the players decide if they prefer standard or vintage or both.  As it stands now, the players have decided that proxies are the way to go, which is horrible for Wizards in the long run.

[Annorax]

Fully powered players might not jump at the opportunity to buy this stuff, but people owning no power would spring at it.

I play with full Beta power (except for an UL Time Walk).  I would buy a metric asston of a reprint set that included P9, Library, Workshop, Mana drain, etc.  I'd be willing to pay in full for at least a case of this before the set was even printed.

Wizards doesn't make much off Type I, because of the choices they made.  They could be making loads of cash from it.  So what if it's a broken format.  Let the players decide if they prefer standard or vintage or both.  As it stands now, the players have decided that proxies are the way to go, which is horrible for Wizards in the long run.

If they were tournament legal, I think anyone with a brain would buy as much of the set as they could before it's released.

I'm convinced that if power is to come back, judge foils are the way to do it. I'd kill to test for my level 2 if Pro Tour judges started getting shiny Walks and Sapphires.

[Jebus]

Does anyone know what kind of print runs judge foils have?

I'm not certain of this, but I do know they did print quite a few.

Heck, I've already received two.

[Whatever Works]

The number of sets of power etc. should be cut in half if we want to have a more realistic #... I bet at least 10-20% of the sets of Power were destroyed... 10% is probably hidden in the closets of old magic players who quit, but never dumped off there cards... 5% in unoped packs that are hoarded by collectors... and probably 25% of power is being held in hard plastic cases or graded cases to never be played again (very sad).

If collectors didnt hoard over 100 of each mox, and 50+ lotus (as seen in several occasions at Gencon) there would be alot more competition in type 1, and probably lower prices...

Personally i wouldnt want reprints because it would make my set of power 9 go way down in value... not that im going to go sell my cards any time soon, but if I invest money into cards it would upset me if others got a full set of reprint power for $100, and i didnt, and then all my cards values got cut in half.

[Mr. Fantazy]

Does anyone know what kind of print runs judge foils have?

I'm not certain of this, but I do know they did print quite a few.

Heck, I've already received two.

Since WotC no longer releases print run info, it would be hard to know. The number of DCI judges plus 10% would probably put you in the ballpark for the low range qty.

[Moxlotus]

If making money were the issue (which of course, it is) then it would be a slam dunk, no brainer for R&D to reprint power in a limited fashion... Of course they would put stipulations on the reprinted stuff "you can't play it in standard or extended, blah blah blah..." This stuff would sell out so fast due to the explosive demand for Vintage cards that there is absolutely no way that they could lose money.  Fully powered players might not jump at the opportunity to buy this stuff, but people owning no power would spring at it.  Done in limited quantities the value of the original power would hold or perhaps even go up (see Underworld Dreams) due to the influx of players that vintage would suddenly see.  

So obviously, making money is not the primary motivation here.  There's something else at work here and my suspicion is that it is the fact that R&D sort of lives in horror of the brokenness that they've unleashed in the past and they would rather sweep it under the rug and feed it scraps occasionally to keep it at bay instead of dealing with it in a substantive manner.

Just my $0.02.

Please explain how reprinting power would make Wizards money.  Putting them in packs in rare quantities would not make tons of T1 players start buying packs, because they would have to buy so many-they could just buy the card.  Wizards won't just sell singles.  So how would reprinting power make Wizards money?

[Godder]

Rather than in packs, or as singles, I think he meant WotC could/should reprint as box sets, and make a packet as they do so...

[PizzaMan]

Rather than in packs, or as singles, I think he meant WotC could/should reprint as box sets, and make a packet as they do so...

I Think Wizards have already done this in Collector´s and International Collector´s Editions... And they´re not legal.

I live in Brazil, and the number of power here is really low... and I´m working hard and paying a lot of money to buy my powers. I would be VERY upset if a 15 year old standard player win a foil sapphire in a PT qualifier and just sell it or trade it for a Cranial Extration set..

Most of the judges in here don´t even play, and just sell the foil promos (btw, you can see all the foil judge promos in here) right after they receive them. I think it is just a waste of power, as most of them will just go to e-bay for, i believe, five hundred dollars for a foil Black Lotus, or go to a collectors bind to stay forever...

There are still a LOT of power, and e-bay auctions shows it. I believe the e-bay bidders that purchase a power card will keep it for collection or play use, and the source just dont end. Every day a new auction just start for a Black Lotus!
I´m tottaly against the reprint in any way. Textless, foil and even artless...