[Discussion] Building a Better Hate Deck, or RG Tempo

[[supa_t(im)]]

@ serracollector
I really love your build, in fact its what convinced me to stick with R/G and I based my last build on it.

However, I'm not sure how it would do against Oath and Combo right now.  My current build still looks a lot like your's except elvish lyrist in place of Kird apes, and ESG's in place of crypt and rancor.

So the MD Blood Moon worked well for you huh?  What do you think of the root maze VS blood moon argument

Back to the topic at hand.  I was sitting on my bed thinking of how to improve the deck when I had an idea.  MD living wish.  That way our SB can be a tool box with maybe a wasteland, maze of ith, troll ascetic, elvish lyrist/viridian zealot, grim lavamancer, gorilla shaman, and anything else you can think of (thats a land or critter).  I think it could open up some options because no one would be expecting you to use living wish, and you could get solutions game one.

Another thing is that you could put in MD combo/control hate to improve the decks overall mathcup, and just wish for generic spells to win you games not against decks that aren't bad mathcups.

Just an idea.

[Gothmog]

You guys are looking for a draw engine for R/G and aren't using Skullclamp?

Play 4 Kird Apes, 4 Skyshroud Elite, that gives you at least 8 turn 1 plays, which you have to have.  Turn 2 play Clamp and equip and you're beating for 3 which almost no one wants to block.  You have to get faster, and can't possibly routinely skip turn one with no plays.

Try to find Skullclamp friendly creatures.  Gorilla Shamen plays nice with Clamp as he eats moxen and then refuels you.  The only really bad thing about Clamp is River Boa doesn't like it.

Also, you have a tough time against good players playing too many Hidden xxx creatures, they can be played around.  Right now, if I was going to play any of them main deck, it would be Hidden Guerillas, but that's a metagame called.

Mask of Memory is tough because other than Boa R/G doesn't have a ton of evasive creatures.  Skullclamp makes your creatures evasive because no one wants to block and kill a Clamp'd creature.

[[supa_t(im)]]

A lot of good two turns of weenies and skullclamp will do when Mean Death tendrils you for 24.

Oath doesn't care about another damage from clamp because it will beat in with Akroma faster than you can with skyshroud elite.

There isn't enough space in this deck for creatures that just "beat for 2" with the exception of River boa because he almost always hits, and troll ascetic because he's so blasted hard to get rid of.  The only reason why you need MORE weenies is against control, but the above 2 fill that spot already.

Clamp isn't gonna help the deck, and more weenies don't work either when good decks just beat you.

[Negator13]

You guys are looking for a draw engine for R/G and aren't using Skullclamp?

Play 4 Kird Apes, 4 Skyshroud Elite, that gives you at least 8 turn 1 plays, which you have to have.  Turn 2 play Clamp and equip and you're beating for 3 which almost no one wants to block.  You have to get faster, and can't possibly routinely skip turn one with no plays.

Try to find Skullclamp friendly creatures.  Gorilla Shamen plays nice with Clamp as he eats moxen and then refuels you.  The only really bad thing about Clamp is River Boa doesn't like it.

Also, you have a tough time against good players playing too many Hidden xxx creatures, they can be played around.  Right now, if I was going to play any of them main deck, it would be Hidden Guerillas, but that's a metagame called.

Mask of Memory is tough because other than Boa R/G doesn't have a ton of evasive creatures.  Skullclamp makes your creatures evasive because no one wants to block and kill a Clamp'd creature.

Like SupaTim said, this isn't Type II and creature combat doesnt actually exist. Null Rod, Blood Moon, Root Maze, and Pyrostatic Pillar are far superior than any creature reliant draw engines. Now personally, I dont think Troll Ascetic is good enough because hes clunky and has no evasion. I'd probably run Lavamancer, Mox Monkey, River Boa, Wild Mongrel, and Basking Rootwalla.

[[supa_t(im)]]

Troll is kinda clunky, but he's a bitch to kill for your opponent, he stops juggs without card disadvantage, and he's awesome against control.

I have a few hang ups about Mongrel + rootwalla.  Both can be killed easily by your opponent, making you lose tempo.  They don't have regeneration.  Mongrel can give card disadvantage if you don't have rootwalla in hand.  Rootwalla is mana intensive to be big enough to kill a jugg (and he will die doing it).  And neither of them have evasion either.

Another thing is that you get to keep elvish lyrist if you go with troll, which I think offers great utility against one of the decks worst matchups, Oath.

[Gothmog]

I certainly didn't mean to imply I think you shouldn't play Root Maze, Pyrostatic Pillar, etc.

I think you have to understand playing R/G is a play for consistency.  You are not going to beat the best draw of several decks.  To have a chance to get the best draw from a deck, you need to play workshop prison or storm combo and be good at the die roll.  You want your R/G deck to beat average draws by other decks pretty consistently.

The tough questions are: how many card slots to devote to disruption, what are the best threats to work in conjuction with your disruption and how reliant are you are on burn.

Traditionally, R/G would play out guys and destroy lands to get to the point where they have a threat or two on the board, a couple of cards in hand, and the opponent at 8-10 life.  At this point, the opponent would usually be in trouble because your burn spells become very good.  Now, the question is, do we have to play so much disruption, that it cuts into the burn?  I'm not sold that this is the case, I personally think people have an irrational hatred of Lightning Bolt right now, but it is certainly a question.

Disruption Slots

The card most synergistic with the basic plan that helps against Storm combo is Pillar.  Unfortunately Pillar is a liability against Dragon, which is why for the first run I think you consider Root Maze also.  I really want to avoid spending more than 8 slots on disruption.  Much more than that and you are so controlling, I start to wonder why we're not playing Mana Drains and Angels or Togs.  Note that if we're not playing Null Rod, it opens up Cursed Scroll or other artifacts.

Creatures

I really think Troll is too slow.  The creatures are certainly open to question, but I'd start with Kird Ape and Skyshroud Elite.  Ideally, you'd like consistency here with casting costs, because further down I'm going to argue for testing Aether Vial in this deck.  River Boa, Grim Lavamancer, Mogg Fanatic, a couple of Call of the Herd, Gorilla Shamen, Lyrist all are worthy of consideration.  The Zealot is too slow unless we play 4 ESG because you're presumably playing him because of Oath or Trinisphere, but getting GG on turn 1 is very difficult without ESGs.  Werebear is worth a look (mutually exclusive with Lavamancer of course), especially if you want Trolls or anything that costs 4, Werebear really helps with those mana war games that are common with many decks playing 5 Strips and can be invaluable versus Trinisphere.  If you play enough stuff that's really cheap, you can consider Eternal Witness.  Lastly, Hidden Guerrillas are really good right now and I'd even give a look to Hearth Kami, because R1 is easy to get, he beats for 2 and usually at least takes a mox with him when he dies.  I would aim for playing about 16 creatures not counting man-lands.

Burn-Removal

Like I said above, I still believe in burn.  We have about 10-12 slots left depending on how many mana sources we need to play.  Having to play 8 disruption spells here hurts, because its taking slots from the burn, but I like having at least 8 burn spells, frankly 10-12 would be nice but there's no room.  The remaining slots are either Naturalize, Artifact Mutation, Skullclamp or Wheel of Fortune I would imagine.  If you manage to play Skullclamp, Aether Vial, at least 2 Moxen and/or some Cursed Scrolls a couple of Shrapnel Blasts can be a very nice surprise.

Mana

It all depends on how the deck shakes out of course, but with Pillar and Root Maze main, Aether Vial looks really strong.  It puts your guys into play through countermagic, is unaffected by Maze and doesn't trigger Pillar.  It you can keep the creature curve low enough and still find efficient beaters it seems worth testing.  Vials of course are cutting into your potential off-color moxen or ESGs probably.

I think we're playing some man-lands also just to increase the threat count.

Those are my thoughts.  I really think you have to start with foundational cards and add the best tools around them.  For me, the cards that are the foundation are Pillar, Root Maze, Vial and Lightning Bolt and I would add from there.

[MCS]

First of all, a little greetings. Even if I'm a newbie to this forum, I'm well known in my country as the messiah of r/g beatz decks. There are three basic problems with r/g decks that I can see at the moment:

1. r/g has a hard time fighting against trinisphere. Adding ESG helps a lot, and playing artifact mutation (for a heavy workshop enviorment) or naturalize (for a combined workshop/oath enviorment) helps a lot, but workshop decks are the natural killers of any aggro deck
2. r/g can't outrace belcher or any other combo deck, you must have the tools for those matchup in your sb and be ready to loose g1 each time
3. u/g has much more tools against r/g, especialy tinker for colossus strategy. There isn't a single thing you can do against an early tinkered colossus

At the moment I'm playing 2 different types of r/g decks. The first one is a straight aggro deck, refered in older times as the zoo deck. The second variant wich has yielded much better results is the bazaar madness r/g deck wich is more instable, but it is also much faster.

I must admit that I'm quite surprised to see that people plays troll ascetic. The troll is, at least by my opinion, way 2 slow. A much better choice by my opinion is nimble moongoose since it achieves the same goal as the troll (untargetable), and by combining fetchalnds, burn, wastelands, mongrels and other tools, achieving threshold is usualy an easy thing.

[Tobi]

A few comment on the last posting:

1. Agree on that, ESG helps a lot against Trinisphere. Playing some manlands (Mishra's Factory, Treetop Village) also does, and it adds some uncounterable threats.

2. Combo has always been a problem for RG, so in a metagame with many combo decks, RG is not a good choice. There are some cards that help, as was stated earlier (Pillar, Root Maze, Null Rod).

3. Tinker Colossus is a pain for RG, but not something you need to be afraid of. If opponent goes Land Crypt Tinker there is nothing you can do. But if you have some turns to apply early pressure, you can even outrace colossus with RG. Kird Apes can buy you one turn by blocking. Boas and Lavamancer deal damage regardless of colossus. Artifact Mutation EOT gives you 11 tokens to race. After boarding, Red Blasts can counter Tinker and Maze of Ith helps, too.

[Revvik]

SSAOT (And the only anti-Oath tech a deck like this should ever need to run, if at all): Reverent Silence.

Their best first turn play would be Orchard, Mox, Oath, with Force of Will back-up.

Your counter to that: Wooded Foothills/Taiga, alternate-cast of Reverent Silence, with REB-backup.

It really is amazing how well a deck like R/G Beatz (BC's name for this 'hate' deck) can do, even in a diverse metagame.  It has been our champion for five weeks running in our weekly mini-tournaments (usually four rounds of Swiss, winner determined by match wins / tiebreakers, store credit payout).
If I get enough requests, I'll see if I can get my teammate's current list & analysis.

[MCS]

Reverent silence is a good idea, but I prefer naturalize due to it's multiuse nature (kill oat, food chain, kills trinisphere, kills whatever other artifact or enchantment your opponent controls in instant speed). By my opinion rg should stick to it's main goal, and that's killing your opponent, and not giving him extra life.

On the last posting I forgot my current decklists. Here they go (appr format):

//NAME: Zoo
        1 Lotus Petal
        1 Crop Rotation
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        4 Arrogant Wurm
        1 Black Lotus
        4 Roar of the Wurm
        2 Gorilla Shaman
        4 Basking Rootwalla
        4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
        1 Mana Crypt
        2 Elvish Spirit Guide
        4 Wild Mongrel
        4 Lightning Bolt
        1 Wheel of Fortune
        1 Regrowth
        1 Lion's Eye Diamond
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Sol Ring
        4 Wooded Foothills
        4 Taiga
        4 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine
        2 Anger
        4 Bazaar of Baghdad
SB:  2 Tormod's Crypt
SB:  2 Chalice of the Void
SB:  3 Naturalize
SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  4 Null Rod

Some brief explanation: first version of this deck used survival as a draw engine. This is obsolete in a deck with 4 bazaars (5 with crop rotation) and 4 squee's. The idea of this deck is to drop bazaar asap and start beating your opponent as soon as possible. The nice part of the deck is that if you go first you have a good shoot against any workshop variant simply by dropping enough mana producers in round 1.
Chalice of the void is the best tool I have in the moment against any tendrils based combo since it shuts down all their moxes, slowing them effectivly and giving you enough time to kill your opponent. Of course, this is a full blown T1 aggro deck, and not a budget deck.

The second version is more of a T1 classic:

//NAME: Zoo2
        3 Gorilla Shaman
        3 Grim Lavamancer
        4 Nimble Mongoose
        4 Skyshroud Elite
        4 Kird Ape
        4 Elvish Spirit Guide
        4 River Boa
        4 Rancor
        4 Lightning Bolt
        2 Incinerate
        1 Wheel of Fortune
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Black Lotus
        4 Wooded Foothills
        4 Taiga
        4 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine
        1 Pendelhaven
        4 Mishra's Factory
        1 Mountain
        1 Forest
SB:  1 Gorilla Shaman
SB:  3 Chalice of the Void
SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  4 Null Rod
SB:  3 Naturalize

Having 18 1cc drops with the potential of 8 of the being 2/3 round 1 was good long time ago when combo decks weren't so strong (and when they had to kill you using a blue spell most of the time so you had an out with pyro or reb). Chalice again is a good tool to fight tendril based combo, but this deck is usualy blown away by any workshop variant (especialy slaver against wich it looses most of the times). The good part of this deck is that it is a budget deck. If you replace the 2 moxes and black lotus with something else it will loose some of it's speed, but it will be still strong. My sugestion is to replave those cards with artifact mutation or null rods.

Both of this decks are tuned around 2 years, but could be better. Sugestions are welcome, of course.

[LSD]

SSAOT (And the only anti-Oath tech a deck like this should ever need to run, if at all): Reverent Silence.

I don´t like the idea of Reverent Silence because if you let your opponent gain 6 live he will probably live about 1-2 turns longer so he will have more to set up his combo.[/quote]

[Revvik]

The whole point of using Reverent Silence's alternate cost is to nuke their first turn Oath w/ counter back-up before they get Drain mana up.  Naturalize is too slow.  You want to take out the reason they kept that hand, and lay down the beats as quick as you can and race them before they try another set-up.

Although it is my own personal belief that R/G Beatz does not need to worry about the Oath match-up.
Another thing - versions running River Boa should use Treetop Village over Mishra's Factory.  This deck has no need for colorless mana.

Rancor and Skyshroud Elite are along the right track: Rancor makes every one of your creatures able to trade with a Juggernaut, and Skyshroud Elite often acts as four more Kird Apes.

Wheel of Fortune is terrible.  The only time I would ever consider this more than a dead card is when all I need is another Bolt to kill and I'm desperate enough to give Control more counters, or potentially let MWS discard a Plat to weld.

Wasteland is essential.  Counters a Trinisphere's effectiveness, can potentially keep Control off Drain mana.  It is not mana denial, it is a tactical card.  Plus it feeds Lavamancers, which should be run as a four-of.  Uncounterable, repeatable damage is gravy.

One thing that is really surprising about a well-built R/G is its resiliency to Mindslaver.  I witnessed a friend of mine get slaved 11 turns in a row before the Control Slaver player ran out of artifacts, and he came back with a win.

Madness creatures (Mongrel, Arrogant Wurm, Basking Rootwalla, and Roar of the Wurm) are nifty.  That said, they belong in another deck.  And Bazaar of Baghdad reduces the overall attractive low price tag on such an effective deck.

[The Hamburgler]

*An honorable return to posting legitimately*

As stressed in posts prior, I as well feel that Root Maze needs some main-decking action. Against control, it causes a 3-turn-fetch delay (one to play, one to break it, one to use it) against Workshops it’s in it’s prime, it stops immediate use of Trinisphere for three turns. This is huge (just not to raise questions: one turn them playing workshop, second turn casting Trinisphere, comes into play tapped so it doesn’t work, you get another turn). Combo seems to be the business you worry about. Root Maze, once again is golden.

I honestly don’t see how this deck is in anyway superior to Madness. It has faster, bigger threats, a stable draw engine, and very similar hate. Why not just play madness? I mean, assuming we are talking about making this deck more competitive, and if not, then why isn’t this in casual? Nonetheless, if you need stay with this deck, then I would make some immediate changes. First off, find a decent threat-base. I don’t see how this deck is competitive, as if I were playing Control Slaver for example; I could sit by allllll day countering 2-3 spells, then dump a slaver. I can see Crucible coming down for a win, but it’s easily counterable. This is my list, for my meta:

Threatbase:
4 Blurred Mongoose*
4 River Boa

Utility:
4 Viridian Zealot
3 Gorilla Shaman/ Goblin Welder (only use Welder if you have an EXTREMELY heavy workshop meta)
1 Quirrion Ranger

Lockdown:
3 Root Maze
3 Null Rod
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Blood Moon

Removal of Welders/ Spirit Tokens (see: Forbidden Orchard)
3 Lava Dart

Manabase:
4 Wooded Foothills
5 Forest
3 Mountain
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Accelerants:
4 Elvish-Spirit Guide
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Fastbond**

4 Empty Slots (metagame dependant)

* I’d play this against control, I can’t exaggerate how annoying these things get. It sounds like (no offense) your meta is not very competitive, what decks are around (what is the biggest archtype?)

** Fastbond is your new Lotus. Lotus comes out for the same reason as fish, both are tempo decks, but it doesn’t need the tempo boost. That, and opponents welding out your Null Rod/ Crucible will decide games, believe me.

Your game plan against Oath is very weak, consisting of destroying Oath and keeping some steady beats. Go first and play the Root Maze, it will help.

Conclusion:
:p I was just playing this on MWS and went this first turn:
Emerald, Sol Ring, Ruby, Crucible, remove ESG Fastbond, Strip Mine
<Player Lost>

- The Hamburgler

Or, instead of making all these changes, you have three other options:

1) Play Madness
2) play Fish
3) Develop Semmen's (no typo) matchslip technology.

[MCS]

Naturalize is too slow.  

I agree on this one, but I would always prefer to use emerald charm then over reverent silence. Giving my opponent 6 life is like giving him 1 free time walk. I like naturalize since it is a versatile card that helps against workshop based decks.

Another thing - versions running River Boa should use Treetop Village over Mishra's Factory.  This deck has no need for colorless mana.

I prefer mishra's since they come into play untaped and they require only 1 mana for activation.

Wheel of Fortune is terrible.

I agree on this one, the only card where it is usefull is keeper, and that deck isn't played so much lately. I'll kick it out of my deck.

Madness creatures (Mongrel, Arrogant Wurm, Basking Rootwalla, and Roar of the Wurm) are nifty.  That said, they belong in another deck.  And Bazaar of Baghdad reduces the overall attractive low price tag on such an effective deck.

Madness is a different deck...this is why I don't play no mongrels/rootwalas/whatever in my classic zoo build.

Regarding to the posting with root maze: sounds OK in theory, I'll put it into praxis. My meta is something like 40% combo, no workshop decks, 40% aggro decks (ravager, WW and UG), 20% control decks (mostly atog).

[Revvik]

Naturalize is too slow.  

I agree on this one, but I would always prefer to use emerald charm then over reverent silence. Giving my opponent 6 life is like giving him 1 free time walk. I like naturalize since it is a versatile card that helps against workshop based decks.

Reverent Silence puts them in top-deck mode.  They burn their entire hand putting the Oath into play 1st turn with Force back-up (Orchard, Mox, Oath, Force, Blue Card, two other cards).  Now they have to find another Oath of Druids after expending their hand in that first turn.  It is easy enough to capitalize on that time.
Remember, in Type 1, life totals don't matter (swords to plowshares being a prime example) - giving a person 6 life in order to completely throw their gameplan out the window is a sound deal.
Mishra's Factory is nice enough in its own right - no CiPT, and can reinforce itself.  But colorless mana is a huge drawback when it comes to playing threats, regenerating River Boas, and activating Lavamancers.  The fact that Treetop Village can't be chump-blocked is another nice feature.
It may be a horrible first turn land drop, and pretty funny when a back to basics is out, but in a deck like R/G, I believe it to be the superior choice.

In a high combo field, have you tried Pyrostatic Pillar?  It may hurt you as well, but all you need against combo is a Pillar followed by one threat and you've put a lot of pressure on them (Storm combo, anyways).

[serracollector]

Wow, lots of comments since I left.  First off, Troll is a must.  Also when playing with 16+ creatures, Rancor is a must, it gives you that turn kill faster.  Today ESG and Mana Crypt IMHO are both needed to keep up with the likes of 3sphere.  I replaced Kird Apes with Mogg Fanatic as:

1.  Kills Welder
2.  Can take out Orchard tokens and itself (leaving them unable to Oath etc)
3.  If it dies with rancor you still get the rancor back
4.  Has good synergy with Lavamancer
5.  Can take out multiple targets
6.  Can still (somewhat) chump and at very least ping opponent.

As for Lyrist, eh, what are you going to do, blow up the Oath after it already has been activated?  Why not the charm (emreald I think) instead?  Also, even though it may sound funny, I have artifact mutated a Collossus before for 11 tokens, and swung for the kill anyways (followed by a bolt etc).  11/tramplers don't scare you as much when you have 20+ damage on the board     Once again if anyone needs advice on R/G beats/tempo msg me here or e-mail me as serracollector@hotmail.com.  The deck is good, and I will still swear to this day that it can handle all tier1 Vintage decks, all of them.

Serracollector

[waSP]

Revvik, there are a couple of problems with your plan.

First, how many REB's and how many Reverent Silences were you planning on running?  How likely do you think you'll get your turn 1 Reverent Silence down with backup?

Second, why would the Oath player drop his Oath turn 1.  If he's smart he'll use the threat of Oath as a huge tempo boost.  He can sit there and draw cards while you wait patiently.  If you drop a creature or two, he'll go to his Oath plan.  With the little bit of time (turns 1-2) he's had, he'll have developed enough acceleration and cards to have two counters for your Oath hate.

If you think you'll have time, your best plan is likely to be a terrible card in R/G: Viridian Zealot.  If you drop him turn 1 or 2, before your opponent gets Oath out  you have insurance against their Oath.

Do you all remember the green land destruction decks?  This is the direction this deck needs to go.  It needs quick, efficient, effective disruption.  It also needs threats that are relevant.

I will try to concoct something that can compete in this metagame.

[Revvik]

I say test the idea.  One of my friends was thoroughly convinced to not play Meandeck Oath due to a R/G Beatz deck run by a 'teammate' of mine.  This is what we've done over here, and found it to be an excellent foil to their god-hand, which is otherwise unstoppable for you.  Plus, you're as likely to get that kind of hand as they are to get their best hand (more so, since you have 8 of the required land, while they must rely on using the Orchard).  

Additionally, running less than the maximum of red blasts against a control deck is, more often than not, a mistake.  Forces Call of the Herd through a Mana Drain, destroys Back to Basics and Psychatogs, nukes draw spells...  Just remember this isn't for playing control, it is disruption.

An Oath player sitting across from an aggro player would probably drop his Oath of Druids as soon as possible - he doesn't need to leave Drain / Leak mana up, because if that Oath gets to trigger, he's won.

That is the single most important thing to remember in this matchup.  
Never let the Oath of Druids trigger.

You are pretty right about one thing.  Viridian Zealot is terrible.  If Naturalize is too slow, then the Zealot definitely won't make the cut.

[waSP]

Revvik, you're not following your own advice.  Oath of Druids can trigger.  You just have to know how to play around it.  One potential solution to the Oath problem is reaction with enchantment hate.  But why not do something proactive in addition.  What do the Oath beaters have in common?  They both are evaded by Sword of Light and Shadow.  That will be my prospective solution.  It can fit in the Rancor slots in a lot of your builds.

The Oath god-hand against you probably doesn't involve a turn 1 Oath.  They want that against decks that have no way to deal with the Oath or the creatures so that they can finish the game before their opponents can set their plan into action.  Also, don't forget about BeB on the Oath side to disrupt your plan.

All the things you are talking about doing with Blasts are very reactive.  If you are playing it like a control deck.  R/G beats was an aggro/control deck for a very long time.  That pardigm for the color combination may need to shift now.  Using something more like a silver bullet strategy (Pillar, Ground Seal, Root Maze) with a quick clock may be the new direction the deck needs to go.

If you guys are still running manlands, this isn't the metagame to be doing that in.  It's far too speed oriented.  You can't afford to have your mana sources CIPT unless you have Root Maze.  Treetop Village is almost always better than Mishra's Factory.  The delay of being able to use colored mana is the same for both of them.

@Hamburglar
Your build looks like one from 2-3 years ago, with a few changes.  It's not the way you want to go with the deck (at least not in this thread).  Lava Dart is good against Goblin Welder, not Spirit tokens.

[Revvik]

Revvik, there are a couple of problems with your plan.

First, how many REB's and how many Reverent Silences were you planning on running? How likely do you think you'll get your turn 1 Reverent Silence down with backup?

Where to begin with this one?  I have to say, it is better to test the idea than to throw it completely out the window.  If I felt Oath would be a definite presence in a tournament, and I was piloting R/G Beatz, I would run four of each in my sideboard.  The blasts are at least useful against most other decks, and the Reverent Silences... well, ruin a Parfait player's day for all I care  :lol:

Revvik, you're not following your own advice.  Oath of Druids can trigger.  You just have to know how to play around it.

There really is no playing around 6 damage a turn that you can't kill.  There is no beating a two turn clock with the creatures available to you on turn one or turn two.  How is this not following my own advice?  If I'm ever piloting R/G and I face an Oath player, my mindset is to never let that Oath activate.  I follow my advice.  Apparently, you don't care if Oath triggers or not.  I'm interested in hearing how you deal with Akroma, Spirit of the Night, Pristine Angel, etc.

One potential solution to the Oath problem is reaction with enchantment hate.  But why not do something proactive in addition.  What do the Oath beaters have in common?  They both are evaded by Sword of Light and Shadow.  That will be my prospective solution.  It can fit in the Rancor slots in a lot of your builds.

Now you're throwing me off base.  You don't care if the Oath of Druids triggers, because you have answers... and can play around it... with enchantment hate.  I must admit though, Light and Shadow is a new one to me - albeit slow, and an excellent target for them to Drain.  Reverent Silence comes down BEFORE Mana Drain mana.  Though evading an Oath player's creatures isn't the answer.  This is an STD.  Prevention is the best cure you have  

The Oath god-hand against you probably doesn't involve a turn 1 Oath.  They want that against decks that have no way to deal with the Oath or the creatures so that they can finish the game before their opponents can set their plan into action.

Their god hand involves the Oath.  To the best of my knowledge, R/G cannot handle Akroma before the final blow is dealt.  R/G cannot handle Spirit of the Night before the final blow is dealt.  And if an Orchard is out, both will be taking your life total apart.  R/G IS the deck you are talking about - hell, they don't even need their Orchards against you!

All the things you are talking about doing with Blasts are very reactive.  If you are playing it like a control deck.  R/G beats was an aggro/control deck for a very long time.  That pardigm for the color combination may need to shift now.  Using something more like a silver bullet strategy (Pillar, Ground Seal, Root Maze) with a quick clock may be the new direction the deck needs to go.

As a control player (mainly Psychatog) I have the tendency to use Blasts to counter key spells.  This isn't always what they're good for.  They are for keeping the control player from delaying the inevitable - countering the draw, or countering their Drain on your fatal Lightning Bolt - forcing through your major spells.  It is purely up to the player to include them.  Some matches they are unnecessary for, but they pair nicely in nuking the Oath/'Tog players gameplan, by forcing through that early game Reverent Silence / late game Naturalize against Oath, or by countering/destroying a 'Tog - letting you stall for time to deal more and more damage.

If you guys are still running manlands, this isn't the metagame to be doing that in.  It's far too speed oriented.  You can't afford to have your mana sources CIPT unless you have Root Maze.  Treetop Village is almost always better than Mishra's Factory.  The delay of being able to use colored mana is the same for both of them.

Manlands are the deckbuilders preference alone, although I believe that having the very land in your deck be uncounterable sources of damage is a major bonus.

Lava Dart is good against Goblin Welder, not Spirit tokens.

Yes.

[E Face]

maybe i'm wrong, but if the oath player activates orchard to play an oath and you already have creatures out, why would you want to kill off the token? an extra body can make you kill faster...

also, i agree with wasp in saying that BEB are better for disruption than for control. using a BEB to force a critter/bolt/rancor through is probably the best play it can have against oath, and blasting a draw spell buys you more time to smash face in with your creatures.

sword of light and shadow is definitely an interesting card to consider, but i think it may only come in handy if you have enough creatures to already outrace his beater(s). i think reverent silence is a fine choice for first turn enchantment removal, but emerald charm is just as strong, although the alternate casting cost on reverent silence enables you to lay a threat during the same turn assuming you went second and the oath player had priority

[Whatever Works]

Not to sound pessimistic or anything (but i most likely will)... But wasnt it concluded a LONG time ago that hate decks are naturally flawed, and thus never suceed in a diverse metagame based not just on bad matchups, lower card quality (and yes green is lower card quality), and the over-reactive nature of these types of decks???

Maybe its just me but it ALWAYS seems that every 6 months or so there is a new attempt to build a hate deck and it always fails, because the concept of a hate deck is so lackluster and far away from being tier 1 or even tier 2.

[waSP]

It's not a terrible idea, it's just not the best one.  When you consider sideboard options, you have to play for the field.  I haven't heard of any fields that were 40 percent Oath.  If it is, I guess there's no getting around running tons of specific hate cards for Oath.  In a more general metagame, your sideboard is what will get you to top 8;  it needs to handle more than Oath and Workshop.  Reverent Silence is a card that won't be useful except against Oath.  There isn't going to be much room in a properly built sideboard.  Let me put it like this..  Why weren't you running Emerald Charm?  It was because it wasn't good against any decks.  It is good against Oath, but why aren't you running it still?  The answer should be that it isn't versatile enough in a sideboard that needs to be filled with versatile, powerful cards.

Your only option game one is to race with something like Sword of Light and Shadow.  Game 2, you side in the Mazes of Ith (I've always liked Maze, despite its screwing up mana curves) and try to stall and Sword of Light and Shadow works still.  It isn't completely necessary that Oath never triggers, but you should be ready should it.

With Treetop Villages, it is important what the metagame is before you consider these.  They are an absolute necessity in any metagame that has large amounts of classic aggro (not FCG), aggro-control, and control.  In metagames that are dominated by combo (like Oath) and Workshop decks, manlands get in the way of your game plan (drop lots of threats and fast (against control your game plan is to resolve threats, thus your speed will have to be dependant on the situation)).  The CIPT, right now, far outweighs the extra threat density.

As a R/G player, I know how to use Red Blasts (I've been doing this for a couple of years with very consistent successes), and the metagame has diversified so that Red Blasts are no longer as effective sideboard options as they used to be.  So, it is more difficult to run them in great numbers.  They remain a mainstay of the deck because of Psychatog and Keeper variants that won't go away any time soon.  But I don't think you'll be able to run them in the great numbers like you would have been able to just 9 months ago.

The purpose of this thread isn't to improve individual builds of R/G for certain types of metagames, it is to answer the question, can R/G succeed in an event like the SCG events and, if so, what would that deck look like.  As a result you will never even think about Parfait when constructing your deck.

I haven't seen much discussion on how to handle the Storm decks in here.  That's R/G's other problem matchup (I'm comfortable with Workshops, Tog, Keeper, FCG, Fish)

@whatever_works
It was decided that hate decks were never as powerful as the decks that were being hated.  This is true, but you can use a hate deck to fill a niche in a metagame that hasn't prepared for it.  A hate deck that rises in popularity will never last long because the deck it is built to hate will decrease in popularity and be replaced by decks that have a good matchup against the hate deck.  Currently, the metagame is such that a deck such as this stands a chance in the metagame.  Or at least that is the belief of the proponents of the deck in this thread.

Also, the hate deck thing is a misnomer, this is a deck that tries to use inherently powerful cards that are useful against the current gauntlet (Root Maze, Artifact Mutation, etc.).  It's a tempo oriented deck with strong reactive options for the powerful decks in the metagame.

[NicolaeAlmighty]

I was looking over recent posts and saw this thread. Being a RG Beats player for around a year now, I thought I should attempt my two cents. Revvik is a personal friend of mine, and is also the one who showed me this.

Now, I don't believe this deck to just be another "fish" type deck. It's not just an all hate deck that takes advantage of the metagame. This deck has always been around. I've never played an opponent who didn't recognize and acknowledge the deck.

Anyways, on to the main point. I've been looking briefly over the topics brought up and the decklists suggested, and I personally think that some of the metagame choices and maindeck choices are lacking. First off, lets take a look at the beating choices.

Kird Ape- the one! You CANNOT play this deck without him. He defines it in every way! A 2/3 for R! Sure, it can't exactly take down a Juggernaut, but who cares. This guy is arguably one of the best weenies ever printed.

River Boa- Damn near the cream of the crop in Vintage. If it doesn't have a Workshop, it has an island. If it has an island, this guy is damn near unstoppable. If it has a Workshop, this guy will stand up to anything the deck has to offer (aside from that damn dirty colossus) again and again.

Skyshroud Elite- Originally I wasn't too fond of the idea of playing with this guy, but with all the nonbasics in the format, this guy is Kird Ape #5-8. Beats for one and all!

Grim Lavamancer- Welders? F Welders. Kird Ape/ Elite may not be able to take down Juggernauts, but Lavamancer can finish him off beautifully. He can also win the control matchup (yeah I know, long games of control don't exist too much in this metagame). I can't see myself playing without at least 3x.

Gorilla Shaman- Chalice blows. Moxen blow. This guy can wreck like none other for the most part. And even if hes useless, there are other ways to make him useful...

Call of the Herd- Juggernauts don't have much on Elephants. Especially when it's a two for one deal. It eats two counterspells, chump blocks repeatedly, and also makes for cheap efficient beats. Whats not to love?

That about does it for my beats. Now lets move on to utility.

Artifact Mutation- I only play a few of these maindeck, but when they do their job- as we all know- they do it magnificently. Nothing more than a metagame choice though.

Lightning Bolt- Juggernauts. Welders. Life totals. Can't pass up R for 3.

Fire/Ice- Welders- plain and simple. Dividable damage is pretty good I hear...

Cursed Scroll- Problems seem to arise with emptyin out my hand. This is also pretty good with Welders or finishing off Juggs after one of my 2/3s pay the price.

Rancor- MVP! Gorilla Shaman not doing too much? Now he'll tear a hole in your opponents ass. Juggernaut ain't too scary any more. Anything becomes a major threat.

Land base next. I don't need to really explain anything here, so I'll just list my mana sources.

4x Wooded Foothills
4x Taiga
3x Mountain
3x Forest
4x Treetop Village
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Emerald
1x Sol Ring

Always works for me. Bout all there is to say.

As for sideboarding, I won't go too much into that. Pyrostatic Pillar and Ground Seal rock in my metagame. Rack and Ruin is fun. Everything else is situational. I'll check back and answer questions... or... whatever. I've won many a tournament with this build. It can be altered to take on damn near any deck in the format. Most annoying card= 3sphere. Combo is irritating, but do-able. Thats about it for now.

[waSP]

R/G Beatz, in its current form, has been viable for about 2 years.  The basic concept of the deck (creatures + burn) has been around since the beginning, but the utility of the current builds was not viable until the printing of Naturalize.

I won a large tournament with it back before TnT was out and put up consistent high finishes for about a year (winning 3 power tournaments).  The mana base you listed is the one I tried to popularize about a year ago.  It is excellent if there is a lot of blue control.  Right now, there isn't.  The mana base has to change with the metagame sometimes.  We need to stop asking whether the deck is good for any one of us, but whether its good overall, or else this thread belongs in the Newbie forum.

It's important that we discuss the optimal choice for a large, diverse metagame, which means considering the top contending decks.  Nicolae, you are mentioning a general creature base that is good, but doesn't attack any of the decks that we need to improve matchups against.  Creatures like Mogg Fanatic, Viashino Heretic, and Virdian Zealot are mentions that all work to improve some of the worse matchups (5/3, Trinistax, Oath).  Maindecking Artifact Mutation is one of those non-intuitive things that we should be addressing.  Some of them may not be viable but we should try to discuss new cards for the deck, rather than rehash the past.

That said, Call of the Herd is the equivalent of Treetop Village in this deck.  It's +1 threat at no cost.  Despite this, it's too slow.  You won't need to block additional Juggernauts, you can just destroy them with Viashino Heretic or Artifact Mutation and receive an additional bonus.

I'd like, if I could to reroute the discussion to Storm combo.  What are your plans on handling the matchup.  Most builds now have 4 maindeck Root Maze or Null Rod.  I believe Root Maze to be superior, because it is applies splash damage to things like Dragon.  I also like running some number of Pyrostatic Pillars in the maindeck (they are useful against many other decks: Tog, Keeper, Fish).  Is anyone using other options effectively against TPS and its emulators?

[Tobi]

On behalf of the combo-matchup, I believe Null Rods are a little inferior to enchantments like Root Maze and Pyrostatic Pillar, mainly because TPS runs Hurkyl's Recall and Rebuild maindeck. TPS will be able to bounce your enchantments, too (via Chain of Vapor and Echoing Truth), but it is a bit more difficult for them.

In my opinion your best bet against combo is to run some combination of the above, maindeck and/or sideboard, plus 4 Red Blasts. The blasts are your chance to counter draw 7, bounce and Tinker.

Against versions running Darksteel Colossus you will need to side in Maze of Ith or Artifact Mutation, too.

Allin all I think TPS is one of the most difficult matchups, but with some disruption and early pressure this is winnable.

[Revvik]

The Storm combo matchup isn't much more difficult than the Dragon matchup was for a properly built R/G (granted, Storm combo players can't elect to draw the game when they're about to lose).

Pyrostatic Pillar is one of those cards that works surprisingly well against most of the field, especially since it is difficult to justify maindeck enchantment hate.  Mana Drain?  Take burn.  Dropping Moxen?  Dropping in life total.  StP even furthers R/G's gameplan of taking you to zero.  It hurts you as well - but you're not casting spells to achieve victory.  One creature (River Boa for its evasion, Grim Lavamancer for its ability to bypass ANY blocker).
And Storm can only hope to Wish and kill it, giving you the option of racing them, or getting out a Colossus.  And 11 insect tokens can then ruin their day.

Null Rod is a nice choice, and can be especially frustrating.  I don't see much justification for them to be in the main, though, as the power of the Null Rod has been diluted due to people's adapting from Fish.

Root Maze is another choice mentioned before (repeatedly).  Another source of frustration for the combo player, this one is only temporary, giving them access to artifact mana when they untap (moxen, however, no longer provide the storm count benefit AND the mana benefit).

These two selections have the same thing in common (Reverent Silence shares this problem): What other decks are they good against?  Does their power against Storm-count combo translate into effectiveness against other decks, and not just other decks, but problem matchups?

The only deck I see these truly shining against is Control Slaver.  Null Rod stops hte Mindslaver and the Engineered Explosives, while Ground Seal, if not dealt with, prevents a permanent lock (unless the recursion of the Slaver is timed during the opponent's turn, allowing him to untap his Mindslaver).

[Wudil]

I've been thinking about playing again a RG beatz since workshops decks are everywhere here in France and as it has really good options against them in having a really good manabase (lots of basics) + Artifact Mutation just for example.

After working a bit on an "old" version of this deck, it seemed to me that I needed a way to draw cards or at least a way to handle the library which is necessary in order to keep moving all the options I have in the deck.
It also seemed to me that I needed to change these options with Kird Ape issue for example which is, even if it seems great as a 2/3 for R, not that I would like.

I'll illustrate this with the choices I've made.

Manabase:

I've chosen a quite usual manabase but reduced the count of Taiga (good targets for anti basics) and added my drawing engine here with the Bazaars of Baghdad (another way to recycle maindeck hate which cannot be used against some type of decks)

        2 Taiga
        3 Mountain
        4 Bazaar of Baghdad
        4 Forest
        4 Wooded Foothills
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Ruby

I finally choosed not to run mana denial here as these would be sub optimal with all Crucibles played around and as this would make my manabase less stable than it is right now (without speaking about the fact that I'm playing Bazaars which doesn't help it on their own).

About the Critters:

I choosed to add ESG to escape the problem we meet when facing a 3sphere on 1st turn of course but also to accelerate the incoming of threats on our turn.

I just kept one creature I used to play in my old version which is Grim Lavamencer. Its capacity is more synergic in the deck I'm piloting right now, you will see why.

Viridian Zealot came to my mind as a good threat to Workshop decks but also against Oath decks which become more and more rampant in my metagame, really good choice.

I hesitate a bit about the Gorilla Shaman issue which finally was rejected for another hoser of Artifacts on its own (and which also can take care of jewlry + chalices for example) which is Goblin Vandale. The big difference between this one and the gorilla is that u can take care of Crucible or other high cc artifacts on the board adding to the jewlry u already can take care.

Wild Mongrel + Basking Rootwalla seemed a really great choice on their own since I use cards which can be useless and is a good way to recycle them in a good way like the Bazaars can already do.

The final choices about my creatures are turned on some that let me use the BoB and Mongrel in their fully use. These are Angers and Squee, Goblin Nabob.

        2 Anger
        2 Goblin Vandal
        2 Squee, Goblin Nabob
        3 Grim Lavamancer
        3 Viridian Zealot
        4 Basking Rootwalla
        4 Elvish Spirit Guide
        4 Wild Mongrel

Threats & Others:

I've put in Artifact Mutation as it's the best response against any Workshop decks but can also be usefull against decks running Crucibles or other stuff like Damping Matrix for example.

I also added Naturalize which is the best answer to an early Oath of the Druid if I didn't have time to put on the board a Zealot and activate it. It also take care of annoying Artifacts if needed.

The only "removal" I've choosed to run is Death Spark as it can play the role of Squees if I don't have them and let me fire and get back it for only 1 colorless mana.

I've put in some boosts with some Rancors and Reckless Charge which are really good on your tool creatures or of course Mongrels.

Last utility card I choosed to put in and that I'm trying right now is Bind. It can create u enough time while recycling on itself when playing on a fetchland, wasteland targeting your BoBs or simply on an activated ability as there are more of them played by opponents decks.

I also choosed not to run Null Rods as they're nearly useless except againt Fast Combo (ie: TPS, Belcher ect...) and are totaly useless againt Oath and Workshops which are the decks to hate right here (not speaking about the fact that I choosed not to run mana denial via wasteland/stripmine in order to have more stable manabase)

        2 Rancor
        3 Artifact Mutation
        3 Bind
        3 Death Spark
        3 Naturalize
        2 Reckless Charge

I didn't work that much on my sideboard but this looks like this for now:

SB:  4 Maze of Ith (really needed in the oath matchups as they're our only answer to a triggered Oath)
SB:  2 Red Elemental Blast (Random stuff against Control decks as I should have hard time for these matchups since I metagamed against Oath and Workshop decks)
SB:  3 Pyrostatic Pillar (best option against fast combo even if it's not enough on their own)
SB:  3 Blood Moon (can be a bomb against some Controlish decks like Keeper or UGr Madness for example but I can't make them come in against Oath as it would desactivate my Mazes...)
SB:  3 Ground Seal (best option against Dragon which are quite present also in my field and is also usefull in the workshop matchups)

The final list looks like something like that:

// NAME : RG Beatz
        2 Taiga
        3 Mountain
        4 Bazaar of Baghdad
        4 Forest
        4 Wooded Foothills
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Ruby
        2 Anger
        2 Goblin Vandal
        2 Squee, Goblin Nabob
        3 Grim Lavamancer
        3 Viridian Zealot
        4 Basking Rootwalla
        4 Elvish Spirit Guide
        4 Wild Mongrel
        2 Rancor
        3 Artifact Mutation
        3 Bind
        3 Death Spark
        3 Naturalize
        2 Reckless Charge
SB:  4 Maze of Ith
SB:  2 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  3 Pyrostatic Pillar / Root Maze / Null Rods?
SB:  3 Blood Moon / Pillars?
SB:  3 Ground Seal

I hope this could help others in order to build a new RG Beatz which can compete in today's metagame (it can differ between mine and yours of course but as I already noted, mine is full of workshop and Oath decks + random Controlish and Dragon decks).

Thanks for reading and I'm waiting for your replies.

Ps: Sorry for my poor english due to the fact I'm a poor lonesome frenchie  

[Revvik]

SB:  4 Maze of Ith (really needed in the oath matchups as they're our only answer to a triggered Oath)

While this is true, you must remember the prevalence of Wastelands in the format.  Do you think you have room (between the maindeck and the sideboard) for one or two Crucible of Worlds?

Also, Meandeck Oath utilizes Back to Basics to lock down Maze of Ith - but a careful budgeting of your utility spells and tight playing could probably neutralize their answer long enough to push through lethal damage.

-

The way you have it worked out here looks more like a R/G madness build, with some pretty uncommon card choices that bear checking out.  Have you had any solid results with your different utility choices (Death Spark, for example)?

And don't worry about the language thing - most of us Americans can't even be expected to speak good English

[xrobx]

This is a really nice post and discussion and I've been following it thus far, without a comment.  I guess my two cents are as follows...with respect to burn, I do feel lightning bolt deserves a spot as was mentioned earlier.  My question is to fire/ice in this deck versus magma jet.  The scrying ability helps greatly (from my playtesting), and gives a sort of semi-draw engine; you can set up what you want to draw...nice.  SO, comparable to fire/ice: it does take down welders, which f/i does a little better (dividing the targets), and has the same cc as f/i, but allows the scry 2.  I'm currently playing with rootmaze main and land grant main, as fetchlands and rootmaze have terrible synergy, but there are obviously variations for everyones respective metagame.  My first point, is to try testing with magma jet over f/i.  This deck needs to draw into threats and utility, not land.  Setting up your deck ahead of time does give you the extra little boost to assure you don't lose tempo.

Second, I thought of suggesting Claws of Gix as a sb option for the oath matchup.  Depending on your mainboard, it is very good for removing pesky tokens from orchards after you swing with them (rancors work nicely mainboard with this option, allowing you to take your 1/1, make it a 3/1 trample, swing for 3, then sac the token and get rancor back).  You assure no creatures stay on your side of the board, and beat them with orchards until you find your solution to the resolved oath.
The proactive solution is obviously REB and naturalize sided in, and possibly lyrists.  Thats just my two cents.