[Discussion] Building a Better Hate Deck, or RG Tempo

[waSP]

I'm not sure many people in this thread think that Blood Moon is a good sideboard card--or maindeck for that matter.  The problem with it is that it is about two turns too slow (0-1 turns if you have acceleration).  And it doesn't help the tough matchups (like Seedtime) besides Deathlong and *maybe* Oath.  So, are you guys improving your tough matchups with this card?  Probably not more than other cards might.

[Revvik]

Blood Moon against Meandeck Oath takes their Orchard off-line, meaning they now can't execute a combo-kill against you.

But since you run creatures, who the hell cares?  
And I absolutely love the thought of oathing up a Colossus and Mutating it.  

Well, Seedtime seems to be pretty opposed to, and although I think it can be gamebreaking if there are enough creatures / damage sources to fully utilize it, your arguments hold a lot of merit.

Question: Can this deck utilize the manipulation power of Sylvan Library?

And Nick - drop Fire/Ice.  They suck.  Sell them to me  

[waSP]

If you don't mind trusting me, Sylvan Library is terrible.  You're better off splashing a color and screwing up your mana consistency a little.  Either Blue or Black, but you aren't exactly running out and trying to do that.

How open would you all be to running one of the Equipment swords (F/I or Light/Shadow) over your Rancor slots?  They aren't quite as fast in attacking, but the utility may be worth the speed bump.  It improves your matchup against Oath slightly (life gain and unblockability with SOLS) and would help in the aggro matchups (again life gain or tempo advantage).  It also doesn't get owned by a removal response by your opponents like Rancor does.  You would have to remove Null Rod from your maindeck to run it.  Feedback?

[Revvik]

Well, one of the reasons Rancor was chosen over here is its ability to show its face again and again, and be an unattractive Mana Drain target.  Speaking as a 'Tog player, I'd love to see an aggro deck dropping a 3-mana artifact so's I can spend that mana on finding/executing Pernicious Deed or another answer (even Deep Analysis can be fed off it perfectly).

Have you tested Light and Shadow against Oath?  If so, how did the speed of it work against them, and were its effects devastating enough to stall for the win?

I think you might be right about the Sylvans - although the card selection combined with fetchlands can be golden, Brainstorm still isn't all that broken, even in a deck as redundant as this one.

[waSP]

I haven't been able to test out either Sword in the maindeck yet.  At least not to the point where I'd be confident in any of their abilities to the extent that I feel I should be.

Against Tog, the Swords won't be coming down when it's convenient for the Tog player.  This is a playskill factor.  And Tog is an excellent matchup (at least for me), so I haven't begun to worry about that yet.  Although my newer, weaker creature base might hurt the matchup a little.

You aren't going to have any devastations of Oath (unless you run Gilded Drake or something), so we just need slight adjustments that tip the matchup in our favor.

[NicolaeAlmighty]

I think Sword is a bad idea all around. Two expensive and too slow in this format... Rancor can be, as Revvik said, a constant threat. Sword is just too clunky.

As for Null Rod, I really don't think that should be a maindeck choice. I personally run them in my sideboard but even that is in question. Root Maze is a big maybe, but Null Rod just doesn't do much for the deck. Cursed Scroll could be a better option.

What is everyone's opinion on Viashino Heretic? I personally think he is just a wink too expensive and slow, but like all things like that... if he gets going, he'll be amazing.

[d4ddy]

What decks do you guys think Blood moon is good against? i think someone mentioned that ti doesnt help against Control Slaver, how so? i'm building a R/G deck to play in a HIGHLY diverse metagame that ranges from random elf life gain to Control Slaver and H Smash, probably Oath as well now, so i'm debating whether to SB or MD it.

Also it seems to me that the best answer to Oath i've seen here is a total SB leaving Art Mut and DC, i think that works much better than Goblin Bombardment, what do you guys think?

[Gothmog]

This discussion is too scattered for actually building a deck, but has been very useful for generating ideas.

Everyone has been throwing around various hate cards and speculating how broadly useful they are.  To get some resolution, I think the first step is to determine the metagame.

Off the top of my head here are the metagame decks I can think of:

4cc
Oath
Prison
Workshop Aggro
Dragon
Storm Combo
Food Chain Goblins
Fish
Control Slaver
Tog

So the question should be, how does a deck matchup against these decks?  Do we try to improve or ignore the worst matchups?  How many slots can we afford to devote to disruption, what disruption helps the most matchups or is most devastating in certain matchups and can we find disruption that fits the basic plan of the deck?

When you look ar a R/G deck in a vaccuum (ie creatures, burn, wastelands) what are the worst matchups?  I'd say Oath, Dragon & Storm Combo are clearly the worst matchups; without hate cards you have a very difficult time winning.

Root Maze - very good against Dragon/Storm
Blood Moon - good versus Dragon/Storm if you play enough acceleration
Pyrostatic Pillar - very good versus Storm; generally useful in that it supports the basic plan, terrible vs Oath/Dragon
Naturalize - very good vs Oath and Dragon; significant general utility vs the field
Null Rod - very good against Storm, additional utility versus artifact decks, mana denial

This is where I'd start, what disruption do you need to play, what is the best way to play around or ideally leverage your disruption into working for you.  Of course you want to play as few pure disruption cards as possible to keep from diluting your threatbase so much that your decent matchups start getting worse.

I also think we need to play creatures that are controlling.  The more we discuss, the more Mogg Fanatic (will you have room for 12 ways to kill Welder with Naturalize & hate) and Gorilla Shamen looks like auto includes to me.

[Revvik]

I can tell you right off the bat which matchups to ignore.

 - Fish (hey Nick, cite my record against you, my U/R Fish vs. your R/G Beatz)
 - 4CC.  This isn't apparent at first, considering Exalted Angel looks like it would eat this deck alive, but combine all the splash damage it receives from hate cards towards other decks, and this matchup is generally laughed at.

Pyrostatic Pillar is also surprisingly good against Psychatog decks and decks running similar draw engines - Intuition hurts, Brainstorm hurts, Accumulated Knowledge, Wish, every Tutor, Mox...  it adds up to the point where one River Boa or a little burn can finish the game quickly.

Controlling creatures - if this is where you wish to take the deck, then creatures like Gorilla Shaman and Viashino Heretic are excellent choices.  Mogg Fanatic...? I can see him used in conjunction with Rancor.

Disruption - pretty well covered, except Null Rod handles the Gothenburg Slavery matchup all by its lonesome.  The only real answer they can bring against that is Platinum Angel, but this deck ensures that she won't stay on the table long enough to save them.  Ground Seal is better suited against decks that abuse welding both utility and artifact fat, like 5/3 or Workshop Slavery / 7/10.  The only thing not mentioned (surprisingly) is the Red Elemental Blast.  I believe all it does is stop Tinker, and even then, Tinker usually can happen before you even take your first turn, so I believe it is unnecessary, even for the purpose of forcing through beats, pushing higher CC stuff like Call of the Herd and Heretic through Mana Drain.

[Gothmog]

I added Null Rod, as I initially overlooked it.  I didn't think of REB because I was thinking mostly of maindeck considerations, not 'board and I don't think we're really considering maindeck REB right?

[Revvik]

I was referring to sideboarded disruption, actually.  And maindecking REB really only helps the control matchup, which is in R/G's favor anyways

[NicolaeAlmighty]

Fish is not only a joke with this deck, but is near extinct in the meta. As for sideboarding against Oath... I'd say that Maze of Ith is the only thing that could do a great amount of good... And the only reason I say that is because of the fact that it cannot be countered. It can be dealt with though. It does buy time though... and if played correctly this match can be won with well timed threats. Naturalize is an option... Then again, they have enough counter to damn near make it irrelevant. It'll be a tough matchup either way... But that has already been established 10x over.

[Angel]

Oath plays lots of wastes... Maze isn't great. It stalls for a few turns, but against R/G, Wastelands just chill out waiting for something juicy to take out... I don't like wasting Taiga's myself, as R/G still runs decent off few lands, while Oath likes mana to cast and defend Oath, draw cards, etc.

Blood Moon is alright... But Oath runs Wish and at least four basics, sometimes more. I feel that it just doesn't do enough.

Incoming bad suggestion: Duplicant?  :shock:  He costs six, but he'll tank that Akroma any day. He's expensive, but he *may* be testable.

I still think the best plan is to try and race, which you can do if Oath has a slow hand... Hidden Gibbons are especially nasty against Oath and should be considered for that matchup. Turn one Gibbons means that I have to force it or turn it one with my Brainstorm... and I really want to do neither of these.

I would still say that the match isn't as bad as some think. Test it a lot and you'll see what I mean.

-John

[xrobx]

@angel:  do you really find that hidden gibbons are that good against oath??  Personally, given the scenario you depicted, why wouldn't the oath player just brainstorm in response, do what it wants with the two cards back on top, then say 'okay,'  and wait for an oath?  Yes, it does like to search for its oath but often times they'll draw into something that fetches it turn 1/2, and simply won't care about casting anymore instants...?  I don't know for sure, just my guess...I haven't tested oath enough to say for sure, and I have yet to test with gibbons.

The colossus idea is pretty cool, but how many are worth running, as we do not want to deck ourselves with 1 (I've played against oath and seen it happen; all the way down to the LAST card), and in this case, maybe try this something like this:

in:
2x Darksteel Colossus
4x Artifact Mutation
4x Skullclamp*** (I know this idea may sound bad, but it takes out tokens and draws you cards that may draw you into artifact mutation/REB...?  Just a thought...)
4x Red Elemental Blast

out:
12x creatures
2x bloodmoon (if you md them)

Thus, the idea here is that you're trying to force them to make you oath up a colossus, and using clamps and tokens, draw into multiple artifact mutations or REBs, which you cast on your colossus and win next turn.  Keep the burn mainboard obviously to finish off the opponent with what damage you need.


It looks like a solid oath play to me, but again, oath is known to 'just win' first/second turn before you can do anything.  It cannot win quickly however if you run only colossus as a creature  It seems like a solid oath idea...thoughts??

[dicemanx]

I think its a very bad idea to change the focus of the deck (fast beats coupled with burn and mana denial) just to have a shot at dealing with Oath. I think the best solution, if there's quite a bit of Oath in your meta, is to simply run 4 main deck Elvish Lyrists and some Naturalizes between the main deck and the sideboard.

All other solutions (Duplicant, DSC plan, Maze of Ith, Goblin Bombardment etc) are simply doomed to fail - you won't be putting on any pressure without your weenie creatures and the Oath deck can kill you eventually after drawing tons of cards and perhaps even hardcasting a threat if need be. I also think Blood Moon is a mistake in this deck - far too many archetypes are running lots of basics these days, and this deck doesn't run much acceleration to warrant such a high cc spell (3 mana is a *huge* amount!). If you dream of resolving BM against Oath to stop their Orchards, keep dreaming. It is very unlikely to resolve past all of their counters, and it also won't make much of a difference if they resolve Oath first.

I suggested a decklist in the following thread, which attempts to hedge against artifact based decks and Oath:

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20934

All of the creatures are designed to either hate out Welders, artifacts (and artifact mana), or Oath. The disruption is heavy anti-enchantment/artifact with 3 Null Rods thrown in. It's also heavy on the burn, but 4 of those burn spells (Incinerates and Fire/Ice) can be readily swapped for Rancors if you want to pursue a faster beatdown route.

[Angel]

@xrobx: The first brainstorm doesn't always find Oath... Gibbons are a big threat, especially if there's a 'clamp on them. And about the Colossus idea, that is a very poor plan. You can race Oath, so why give that up? Yes, Oath can just win, but so can R/G. Skullclamp sucks if they give you a token EOT, which happens a lot. Sometimes it'll buy you a turn, but that doesn't matter, because you can no longer race them... and why DSC, anyway? Oath's beats fly, and bounce comes in from the wishboard. Echoing Truth is a versitile answer, and one that there's no reason not to play. Also, why Artifact Mutation?

Diceman is right in saying that Elvish Lyrist is good. A turn slow, but definately hot. Problem with that is, it's weaker against other decks than a different creature that would go in that slot. However, if you expect lots of Oath, it sounds solid. Then again, do you guys see lots of Oath? I'm the only one I know of in my area, and the deck seems like it's not seeing much play. Is it out in force enough to worry about?

-John

[xrobx]

very true man, i personally was a little iffy running the skull clamp idea, but combined with the hiddens it seems okay (basically a four turn clock).

I've thought about lyrist also, but he does have the drawback of having to wait another turn to kill the oath.  If they go: oath, go, you still need to cast your lyrist and in the meantime they oath up a fatty.  However, if you go first turn lyrist, go, then you have a much better chance against it (assuming it doesn't get countered of course).  The downside is that lyrist is somewhat of a dead card after turn 1.  You're never going to use it to take out an oath after that, as it is summoning sick and guarentees them a creature.

So, for my build right now I'm thinking (assuming heavy oath/MSW environment):

4x Naturalize (2 md, 2 sb)
4x REB
4x Blood Moon (3 mb, 1 sb)
and if room, 4x Elvish Lyrist (4 sb)

I disagree that blood moon doesn't belong in the deck, nor is it unplayable by any means.  Running lotus, mox emerald, mox ruby, mana cypt, ESG, lotus petal, it isn't too hard to get 3 mana first/second turn to just dump a bloodmoon out with, which does have a damning effect even on the oath players manabase.

Discussion:  how effective are null rods right now in this deck as a disruption spot?  Do they deserve higher priority than root mazes/blood moons do?  Or are you finding the 4 waste + 1 strip + root maze/blood moon are sufficient to keep the opponents manabase under control?  Currently I've resorted to 4x fetch, (no land grants), 4x root maze main, 3x blood moon main, no null rods.  I found many decks were hurt just as much by the 1cc green enchantment (root maze), combined with the synergistic gorilla shaman than a simply null rod would provide for the same mana (2cc, R and G, or GG, etc..)  Also, with such a heavy artifact reliant manabase in my build (crypt, 2 moxen, lotus, petal) the 2 mana to go first turn rod often killed my production; I know this is a very small price to pay for demolishing a fully powered decks structure with 8+ artifact mana sources, but I'd rather be spending this acceleration on bloodmoon or maze; something that doesn't condemn me for no mana for a few turns.

[the boogie man]

You guys have to realize that oath doesn't always get an oath first turn, or even second turn. Sometimes it can take upwards of 3-4 turns to get one. sometimes if they think that that you are holding counters and they don't have any, they'll wait for it.

[[supa_t(im)]]

This deck doesn't run counters unless post sideboard.  However, you bring up a good point that Oath doesn't always play turn 1-2 Oath.  I think the best strategy against Oath is to try to outrace them.

The creatures they use are Akroma and SotN in the latests builds.  Last time I checked, SotN wasn't immune to burn, so basically they only creature we need to worry about is Akroma.  With rancor, burn and orchard tokens in conjunction with our own beats, I think it is quite possible to race Oath.

Sure, sometimes Oath just wins, but I don't think its seeing as much play to dilute the deck just to have an OK matchup against it.  I think 4 Naturalize MD is enough for the Oath matchup since it also splashes over to just about every other deck.  I think Rancor is a must as well, since it makes tokens into formidable forces, and increases your clock on the opponent.

About Blood Moon, I think that this hate card has lost a lot of its potency.  Most decks are preparing for non-basic hate because of CoW and B2B and are therefore running more basics.  I don't think it hurts as much as it used to, and the cc is kinda steep for a deck which should be blindingly fast.  I used to love it, but now, its meh.  Pyrostatic Pillar is better for both the combo and control matchup.

[dicemanx]

About Blood Moon, I think that this hate card has lost a lot of its potency. Most decks are preparing for non-basic hate because of CoW and B2B and are therefore running more basics. I don't think it hurts as much as it used to, and the cc is kinda steep for a deck which should be blindingly fast. I used to love it, but now, its meh.

Agreed. I ran main deck Blood Moon in recent events in my Control Slaver deck, and it was simply a *terrible* choice. There are far too many basics out there which people started using due to the presence of CoW/BM/B2B, and also the fact that the 4-5 color decks have all but disappeared. R/g beats has some great main deck choices competing against each other. For instance, how does BM stack up to, lets say, Root Maze or Ground Seal? There is some stiff competition there from very powerful hate cards.

[Dante]

for a deck that came in 3rd in a 53-player field in France on 12/5/2004, check out

http://www.solomoxen.com/?page=7&id=7&lang=fr

there's a breakdown of the field too, which will be helpful.  Hopefully this might be a good practical example of a deck that placed well.

[xrobx]

It's kind of suprising and interesting at the same time to see how well that deck did; given a field consisting only of workshop decks (slaver and stax), oath, and 2 dragon decks.  

Now, the relevant part: note the choices he made.  Troll ascetic, factories, mainboard null rods, and some very odd choices.  The odd choices in particular that raise question are why not run 4 instead of 3 ESG?  Why 3 shaman over 4?  Why a single crucible?  This is not a discussion to disect this particular decklist, but is instead to gain knowledge of this RG deck in order for us to adapt it to our own particular metagame.

As stated, he placed highly in a fairly large tournament.  The element of both suprize and hate is highly evident in this deck, and should not be passed by when considering playing it.  The route this guys deck went was to use higher casting cost threats that are better off mid to late game, yet he used factories as well.  This is somewhat counter intuitive, as they are both meant for late game consistancy.  Theoretically, especially in the absence of ANY power, petal, crypt, or even a 4th ESG, his early game should not be fast at all, and his threats should be neutered by the time he is ready to cast them (ie. manadrain, fow, daze, anything pretty much controls this build as it does not pack sufficient quick drops).  However, he did go heavy on disruption to the opposing players manabase.

If we can gather anything from this, it is that this deck has great potential and CAN be exceedingly powerful under the right fine tuning.

We need to finalize this topic by raising discussion to a finalized build, possibly a  primer (mods? I don't know how one goes about writing this, but I'd be interested if need be), and then we'll get some more results on the board and hopefully see this as a competitive tier one hate build for the time being.

Mishra's factories do seem like a good way to solve the problem of mid-late game mana dumps, but the drawback with colorless mana is too harsh (I feel) to be strong enough as a deck choice.  Mainboarding treetop villages and root maze seems to be inevitable, and with the recent switch to basic lands, wouldn't this make more sense?  Wasteland is a lot less likely to be a four-of in most decks nowadays.

[xrobx]

It's kind of suprising and interesting at the same time to see how well that deck did; given a field consisting only of workshop decks (slaver and stax), oath, and 2 dragon decks.  

Now, the relevant part: note the choices he made.  Troll ascetic, factories, mainboard null rods, and some very odd choices.  The odd choices in particular that raise question are why not run 4 instead of 3 ESG?  Why 3 shaman over 4?  Why a single crucible?  This is not a discussion to disect this particular decklist, but is instead to gain knowledge of this RG deck in order for us to adapt it to our own particular metagame.

As stated, he placed highly in a fairly large tournament.  The element of both suprize and hate is highly evident in this deck, and should not be passed by when considering playing it.  The route this guys deck went was to use higher casting cost threats that are better off mid to late game, yet he used factories as well.  This is somewhat counter intuitive, as they are both meant for late game consistancy.  Theoretically, especially in the absence of ANY power, petal, crypt, or even a 4th ESG, his early game should not be fast at all, and his threats should be neutered by the time he is ready to cast them (ie. manadrain, fow, daze, anything pretty much controls this build as it does not pack sufficient quick drops).  However, he did go heavy on disruption to the opposing players manabase.

If we can gather anything from this, it is that this deck has great potential and CAN be exceedingly powerful under the right fine tuning.

We need to finalize this topic by raising discussion to a finalized build, possibly a  primer (mods? I don't know how one goes about writing this, but I'd be interested if need be), and then we'll get some more results on the board and hopefully see this as a competitive tier one hate build for the time being.

Mishra's factories do seem like a good way to solve the problem of mid-late game mana dumps, but the drawback with colorless mana is too harsh (I feel) to be strong enough as a deck choice.  Mainboarding treetop villages and root maze seems to be inevitable, and with the recent switch to basic lands, wouldn't this make more sense?  Wasteland is a lot less likely to be a four-of in most decks nowadays.

[MCS]

Since I didn't want to continue this discussion without actualy testing my dec creation on a real tournament, I waited until my first chance to play it. I won the tournament in 4 rounds with rg, taking out oath, deathlong, rector tendrils and ug madness. I doubt they where the best build (except for the death long deck), but I learned some realy valuable information. Decklist first:

//NAME: Zoo2
        4 Gorilla Shaman
        4 Root Maze
        4 Grim Lavamancer
        4 Skyshroud Elite
        4 Kird Ape
        4 Elvish Spirit Guide
        4 River Boa
        4 Rancor
        4 Lightning Bolt
        4 Treetop Village
        2 Incinerate
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Black Lotus
        4 Land Grant
        4 Taiga
        4 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine
        1 Mountain
        1 Forest
SB:  3 Artifact Mutation
SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  4 Null Rod
SB:  4 Naturalize

First, I decided to test root maze and, man, what a strong card. This card first round can shut down any workshop deck, since they have to wait until turn 3 to have an active trinisphere (workshop tapped, trini tapped). It realy is a pain against any deck that wins by tendrils, since their moxes comes into play tapped. And against fetches this card is incredible.

24 creatures (esg is a creature 2, 28 if you count treetop) combined with rancor and burn is incredible fast. And land grant is just nuts.

My sb was different. I played blood moon for instance and I have two things to say about it: it is good, but it is 2 slow. By the time you manage to cast it you usualy die. On the other hand, it is realy good against any combo deck since it shuts down most of their blue and black mana. My experience is that null rod combined with root maze is usually enough.

Naturalize is still here. I'm not quite sure if it is the best choice, and perhaps emerald charm is better (esg+emerald charm for turn 1 oath before your turn), but naturalize kills artifact as well as enchantment, while charm not. I'll think still about it. Hull breach definetly isn't. It is 2 slow and 2 clumsy. Don't play it.

Thnx for the tips of treetop village, it is MUCH better than mishra. The green mana is usually priceless, and with root maze in pay it's drawback is not a draawback anymore.

This deck is good, try it.

[[supa_t(im)]]

Does one really need to play land grant with root maze?  I mean the deck only runs 4 fetchlands, and can function on 2 lands, especially with ESG.  I still don't like the idea of counterable fetches and letting your opponent see your hand, especially if your opponent is piloting Oath.

The R/G I tested against Oath was WAY different but I also learned a few things.

You CAN outrace Oath, rancor is MVP here.

Naturalize MD is tech, and it affects almost every deck in the format.

The only effective strategy for facing Oath is to beat the tar out of them, and not try to do nifty tricks with random SB "hate."

I found more burn more effective, but I ran Dryad, so that could be the reason.  I plan to test with a more traditional build soon.

Has anyone give any thought to [card]Quirion Sentinel[/card].  He's virtually a 2/1 for 1 mana, and can provide mana fixing.  He also give a pretty good tempo boost if many of your spell are 1 mana.  I used to run him in my old Beatz deck and he was golden.  Any chance he could come back?  Just a thought.

[xrobx]

He's a 2/1 for 2, that gives a free mana.  There is a big difference there, in that you need 2 mana sources to cast him, whereas most of the time if you have two mana sources you can drop a bigger threat (null rod or boa), or use the other mana for another spell (rancor, bolt, etc).  He seems a bit too slow for the deck but I'll test with him and see if he generates decent results.

I question land grant as well; fetches are still good, just try to avoid them under root maze.  Likely though, if you have 2 mana on the board you're doing fine, so there really isn't any need for fast mana; ie. the fetches CAN function slowly under root maze with minimal drawback.

I'm finding this deck has generally 2 spots to play around with, mine are filled with magma jet for the time being.  I'll test with naturalize, and also null rod main.  From my personal experience, burn is a very great help to finish off the beats in this deck, and of course works well as creature removal.  Naturalize could see more use in a heavy workshop and oath environment; which is the case around where I live.

[[supa_t(im)]]

Hmm, negative on the sentinel, unless you really find that you don't always have the mana you need.  Elite is usually better.

What is your build like xrobx?  Have we established a "standard" build yet?  There has been a lot of discussion on this deck, but I'm not really sure if there is a consensus on which direction it is going in.  Does troll ascetic still deserve a slot?  Or do we concentrate on faster beats?

I think its time to consolidate some good points brought up in this thread, and make some conclusions.  I unfortunately can't speak from tournament experience because there aren't any near where I'm going to school.  But I do have people to playtest good decks with, so I can say that I've playtested.

Some points to address would be, what kinda of beats do we want to go with?  How many slots do we want to dedicate to hate?  What is the best burn for this build?  What is the best manabase for this build?

Those we can probably draw out from this discussion, but I find it kinda incoherent right now.

[xrobx]

Tim, my build currently looks like this:

// Lands
    3  Taiga
    4  Treetop Village
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    3  Forest
    3  Mountain
    4  Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
    4  Elvish Spirit Guide
    4  Kird Ape
    4  Gorilla Shaman
    4  River Boa
    4  Skyshroud Elite/Grim Lavamancer

// Spells
    1  Crop Rotation
    4  Rancor
    4  Lightning Bolt
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Ruby
    4  Root Maze
    1  Black Lotus
    2  Magma Jet

// Sideboard
SB: 4  Null Rod
SB: 4  Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4  Naturalize
SB: 3  Artifact Mutation


I am not saying this is the most optimum build, as I will explain shortly.  Firstly, sideboard options are always dependant on the metagame in your area.  Right now, from my playtesting, I'm finding the weakest sb choice to be REB.  Often times when I'm playing any blue cards, chances are I'd rather drop a threat than stop one of theirs.  The other 3 choices (rod, naturalize, mutation) are quite consistant to my metagame and deserve slots.

The 2 magma jets mainboard I'm still playing around with, as they might not be optimum choices.  These spots I'm thinking of filling with naturalize, as usually it's an all-around good utility card and usually sees a target by the 3rd turn latest (at worst it can be used to take out mana sources which isn't a bad thing; think of it as an instant sinkhole for artifact mana).  This mana denial theme is huge I believe.  The rods, root mazes, gorilla shaman, wastelands+strip, and naturalize can provide decent disruption to the players manabase.  Often times you'll present a lock with root maze and shaman, in which the opponent has little he/she can do.  I'm going to try testing with ankh of mishra for quicker damage in the spots of magma jet as well;  it may prove vital for the extra damage it can inflict to the opponent, however, the downside is it will affect your own fetches but that shouldn't be as damning to you as it is to your opponent anyhow.  Seeing as how we need little mana to dish out threats, ankh seems quite solid from my perspective - again, I'll playtest this first and bring results

I'm quite happy with my mana base with only one consideration; lotus petal.  This deck likes to have mana sources that stay in play, as it tries to abuse boas regenerate ability, lavamancers shock ability, while maintaining productivity under root maze.  This is worth considering though (petal).

As for skyshroud vs lavamancer, I need more playtesting with skyshroud first to conclude one is > the other.  Again, a metagame choice, but I believe the switch to basic lands tends to make mr.elite < lavamancer.  Mancer provides damage each turn as a shock effect, and deals with pesky 1/1 welders, anything sui/fish/sligh offers, and can provide some pretty mean damage to the dome.

Other than what's been said, I think we just need to toy around with those 2 mainboard spots a bit and possibly change the manabase/creature base if I'm missing something, or leaving it out, as an optimum build would be nice at this point.  I'm open to criticism and hopefully someone can push this discussion a little further until we've reached our conclusions on the deck, gained some results, and solidified a build.

[Revvik]

Have we established a "standard" build yet?  There has been a lot of discussion on this deck, but I'm not really sure if there is a consensus on which direction it is going in.  Does troll ascetic still deserve a slot?  Or do we concentrate on faster beats?

Neg on the Troll Ascetic, man.  Although a Rancor-ed Troll Ascetic is sweet, the green-mana intensity is too hefty, and the higher casting cost means the control player doesn't even need to read the card name to know that it's spelled D-R-A-I-N M-E.

As far as a standard build goes, I think this is where skilled metagaming becomes much more important to skill, to the point where I think saying "the R/G Beatz player MUST be a skilled metagamer."

A "defined" R/G decklist is inherently flawed, because the smartest way to play this deck and place successfully means changing the deck to best fit the tournament/metagame you will be playing in.

For instance, a teammate of mine decided to try a suggestion on this thread of maindecking Root Maze in the face of a lot of Storm combo and some Workshop (both $T4KS and Aggro), to great success.

Therefore, a decklist for R/G Beatz should instead be composed of three "modules:"
Module 1: Mana Base
Unless you're seeing a mass load of Back to Basics, this should almost never change.
Module 2: Creature Base
Composed of your quick, uber-efficient threats, this is an area of the deck that should remain largely untouched.  Substitutions such as switching Call of the Herd for Viashino Heretic (a nice choice in the face of recent innovations in decks based around Tinker-Colossus).  However, staples such as River Boa and Kird Ape remain the backbone of this deck.
Module 3: Utility Base
Expect this to change with every tournament.  Cards typically included in this category are Lightning Bolt, Artifact Mutation, and Naturalize, but can range to include Fire/Ice, Root Maze, Blood Moon, Red Elemental Blast, etc.  This is what can make or break your tournament record - determining correctly what takes up these valuable disruption/utility slots to pave the way for your beaters to win.

...think of it as "presiding," but you're not doing it for a particular match, you're doing it for improved odds over every match.  Note that this does not condone guerilla tactics such as spying on decks and decklists ten minutes prior to registration.  One should use their brain to figure on what will make strong showings.  Example:

"I'm going to Kalamazoo next Tuesday.  Control Slaver (both versions) has made strong showings for the past month.  I think Control Slaver has a bad matchup against Dragon, because Control Slaver cannot use the multi-purpose hate card Ground Seal, and Dragon has better hand disruption and quicker inevitability.  There are several good Dragon players in or near the Kalamazoo area.  I think Dragon will attempt a strong showing."

[NicolaeAlmighty]

Well RG did it's job again last night. I took her to a tourney and cleaned some clocks. The final matchup was with the uber tough Perfect Storm. This was an amazing match on the Beats' side. During the first game, my third turn I casted a Skyshroud Elite, a Call of the Herd, a Kird Ape, and finished it all off with a Root Maze. He promptly scooped. Second game a Grim Lavamancer (thankyou Wheel of Fortune for the ammo!) and a Rancored Kird quash his hopes of winning this match.

The relevance? I honestly went into this thinking that I could win, but the chances were slim... especially considering I mulliganed down to five the first game. I sided in Pyrostatic Pillar and Null Rod (not that I ever saw either) and was trying out 3 Root Mazes main deck... I like the concept of Root Mazes MD, but it's still up for consideration.

Quirion Dryad really doesn't belong in this deck. You aren't playing tons of non green colored spells to make it truly efficient. Neither does the sentinel. The sentinel is really just a bit too slow and also doesn't have any "other bonuses/ utilities" that most of the other creatures have. If you want a 2/1 that will fit the mana, go with Jackal Pup. Pup sucks though. Why have a 2/1 with a drawback when you can have a 2/3 with no such thing?

As for Troll Ascetic, honestly (as Revvik pointed out), 3 is a bit too expensive in a world of Drains. Also, it tends to work against the mana curve... Too green intensive. I know, that usually seems like it can be easy to accomplish but then again... most of the time your functioning off two mana sources... and functioning well I might add.