[Discussion] Building a Better Hate Deck, or RG Tempo

[Bibi]

About the actual metagame (slaver, oath...) do you think Goblin welder would be a good idea to put in sideboard ?

[Revvik]

No.

R/G does not have the sideboard resources to devote to a creature that isn't even marginally useful against a deck that is already a favorable matchup.

[SgW]

what's about Dwarven Miner? and Barbarian Ring? or Ground Seal (vs Slaver and Dragon)?

 (up)

My current test version :

// Lands
    4 Wooded Foothills
    1 Strip Mine
    2 Taiga
    4 Wasteland
    2 Treetop Village
    4 Mountain
    4 Forest

// Creatures
    4 Mogg Fanatic
    3 Grim Lavamancer
    3 Kird Ape
    4 River Boa
    3 Elvish Spirit Guide
    2 Viridian Zealot

// Spells
    2 Incinerate
    3 Null Rod
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Rancor
    2 Ankh of Mishra
    3 Root Maze
    3 Naturalize

// Sideboard
    3 Artifact Mutation
    3 Ground Seal
    3 Blood Moon
    3 Red Elemental Blast
    3 Pyrostatic Pillar

[MCS]

As sugested porior, I've tried ankh (a little bit before than I was expecting to use it, but it is still ok). Altought it wasn't used in a tournament but more on a controled gauntlet of matches (so called playtesting), I've come up to some quite interesting conclusions.

First of all, ankh sucks. It realy sucks. I've managed to draw it in my hand every third game. The turn I dropped it into play I was forced not to drop one creature for the turn, wich in theory is OK since ankh will deal damage as it was a creature. Every sixth-seventh game I managed to drop it in my first round using usualy esg as mana acc. The games when I didn't manage to drop it in round 1 I usualy had the next scenario:

 - scenario 1 - ankh countered (sometimes with mana drain wich was as bad as possible)
 - scenario 2 - opponent takes 2-4 damage, combo kills me
 - scenario 3 - opponent play trinisphere, I kill myself with lands since he uses his wastelands to kill of my lands (humiliating), or I'm slowed so much down that I can't kill him before he drops a treath of his own and kills me before.

If one of those scenarios didn't happen, ankh was good. Ankh was also good if I managed somehow to drop ankh fast, and then waste/strip his lands away, forcing him to burn himself. Of course, drawing that card late in game is incredibly bad since it is a dead card late in game. The good thing about ankh - you know always 3 cards that you will sb out. My conclusion - if you can't play it round 1, don't play it (and most of the times you won't be able to play it round 1). It just isn't worth the slot.

Regarding fetchlands, I have good and bad situations. The good situations where the one when I didn't play foothills under root maze. The bad was when I played it under maze. Since having a maze in game is good, and having a uncounterable "get me a land that I want" is also ok, I will switch back to foothils altought the drawback of maze in game is much bigger than somebody would think.

I'm thinking about the last cards that will fill my empty slots. Incinerates are ok. Somebody sugested naturalizes, wich seems also ok. Viridian zealot, on the other hand, seems a little bit 2 slow for the deck he is suposed to fight (oath), altought in teory he seems quite good, especialy if played round 1. I think my deck runs enough creature, so I would prefer to have an aditional tool to fight the current metagame.

[xrobx]

scenario 3 - opponent play trinisphere, I kill myself with lands since he uses his wastelands to kill of my lands (humiliating), or I'm slowed so much down that I can't kill him before he drops a treath of his own and kills me before

This doesn't quite make any sense, as you mentioned you kill yourself with lands, since "he uses his wastelands to kill of my lands."  This simply can't be true.  If he is recurring wastelands from his Graveyard, he is taking massive damage from ankh.  Ankh virtually stops the crucible lock.  If he just happens to have 4 wastes in his hand, and keeps taking out your lands, all the better.  He has just taken 8 damage.  If you run 4 fetch, wasteland shouldn't be an issue...unless you had root maze out, but even if you did it still shouldn't matter, just leave the fetches untapped until he wastes them...?  I really don't see here how ankh is bad, because wasteland exists.  If ankh is doing more than 2 damage, it's doing its job.  It at worst makes the opponent feel concerned that they're taking a bit of damage, which helps your gameplan.  If the opponent has sick LD in hand, who cares?  You should be running enough lands up the wazzo and mana sources not to even care.  All you need is usually G or R, right?

As for finding spots MCS, whatever you use I'm sure will be great; lots of good suggestions have arose on this discussion.  My favorites include:

-maindeck naturalize (4 if you dont run em already)
-maindeck rod (i tend not to like this card as much as i used to)
-2-4x magma jet (fixes the dead draw problem)
-2-4x skyshroud elite (if you find tons of nonbasics, which isnt too likely)

[Vegeta2711]

Doesn't morph still cost three? How does that dodge drain if troll also costs three?

Draining Morph creatures gives 0 mana.

[xrobx]

Doesn't morph still cost three? How does that dodge drain if troll also costs three?

 

Draining Morph creatures gives 0 mana.

Hehehe...zinggg.  I thought I misread that too, but indeed he did just imply that you can mana drain a morphed creature and get 3...jokes

[[supa_t(im)]]

Doesn't morph still cost three? How does that dodge drain if troll also costs three?

Draining Morph creatures gives 0 mana.

What?!  

I should really stop attempting tongue and cheek-ness over message boards.  But seriously, hystrodon?  I guess it could work, but it seems kinda slow and clunky.  6 mana for a 3/4, ability is good, but I don't know. . .

perhaps I was a bit too hasty?

As for the extra MD spots, I, once again, feel that Naturalize is an amazing MD solution to a lot of problems.

[xrobx]

after playtesting tonight i've seen both angles of this deck and what it can do.  The version I run is the aggro version, while other cards like sol ring, crypt, hystrodon, stormbind, etc., find their place in control zoo.  Interesting playing the mirror I must say, and both decks are quite good.

Case and point: hystro and the other mentioned cards tend to be great in the control version.

[MCS]

You should be running enough lands up the wazzo and mana sources not to even care.  All you need is usually G or R, right?

True, but I've lost some games to that scenario since he just takes out my lands, I'm unable to cast anything under trini, he keeps me under 3 mana and he kills me with something. I have to play something prior to playng ankh, or I have to draw a treetop village, otherwise I found myself in a situation with ankh on board, trini lock and no treath.

-maindeck naturalize (4 if you dont run em already)
-maindeck rod (i tend not to like this card as much as i used to)
-2-4x magma jet (fixes the dead draw problem)
-2-4x skyshroud elite (if you find tons of nonbasics, which isnt too likely)

I think I'll try magma jet once more. This deck has realy turned out as a great deck. I think it would be interesting if somebody would try it at a major T1 event. Btw, lately I've been thinking of tormod's crypt as a card to use in my sb to stop y's will nonsense. What is your experience with the card?

[SgW]

Btw, lately I've been thinking of tormod's crypt as a card to use in my sb to stop y's will nonsense. What is your experience with the card?

Tormod's Crypt deal is job, 0 cc, RFG the graveyard... but must sac it.

I prefer Ground Seal, the graveyard is lock and when you play it, you will draw a card :

Ground Seal  1G - Enchantment
When Ground Seal comes into play, draw a card.
Cards in graveyards can't be the targets of spells or abilities.

[Tobi]

Tormod's Crypt is a good tool to fight combo, since it stops Yawgmoth's Will and Academy Rector.

Ground Seal is somewhat better against Goblin Welder, but who is afraid of Welders if his deck is packed with burn?
Seals are slower than Crypts, and slow is something you don't want to be.

Today I would definitely play Crypts over Ground Seal.

[Rebel7284]

the problem with Tormod's Crypt is that it doesn't work under Null Rod.

[xrobx]

As for crypt...

Why would you want this card?  Sure it seems good, and is decent overall, but in todays metagame it just can't pull its weight. Think about it, when would you side in 4 crypts?  Well, against something that uses the graveyard to either combo off, or some kind of nasty recursion (yawg win).

Hence, crypt goes in VS:

slaver
dragon
stax
madness
gro/super gro
rectortrix
doomsday (maybe, if they play the tendrils kill)[/list:u]

In any of these matchups, the card really just doesn't make the cut as it isn't very efficient whatsoever.  A null rod often does the job against combo, and better yet, pyrostatic pillar pulls more than enough weight to let you run over combo.  With the inclusion of pyro pillar, you can hate out all of the above decks (except rectortrix, but who cares?) as well as the following:

TPS
doomsday (for sure)
meandeck.tendrils
4c[/list:u]

and even janky decks like:

FCG
Ravager
GAT[/list:u]
The point is that in a format defined by low casting cost, extremely efficient and powerful spells, a card like pyro pillar inflicts damage for the opponents every move.  A first turn pyro pillar against any deck running power is often a big blow to the ego (if they don't FoW of course ).  They keep a hand sitting on an ancestral, sapphire, ruby, and say walk, cast those 4, and drop a land, that's 8 damage you've already inflicted before you've dropped a creature.  It works the same way here as ankh, except ankh allows mana denial whereas pyro simply puts both players on a faster clock.  

Pyro basically reads:  if the format is type 1 and your opponent has a competitive deck, decrease your life total and the life total of your opponent by half rounded up.

Case and point: pyro > crypt for any combo matchup, which is the primary reason to run crypt in this deck, therefore, pyro > crypt!

[Vegeta2711]

What?! Razz

I should really stop attempting tongue and cheek-ness over message boards.

Heh, my mistake then. Enough people seem to not know the ruling that I thought it was a legitmate mistake.  :lol:

[[supa_t(im)]]

What?! Razz

I should really stop attempting tongue and cheek-ness over message boards.

Heh, my mistake then. Enough people seem to not know the ruling that I thought it was a legitmate mistake.  :lol:

Heh, its no big deal.  I seriously need to stop, because it NEVER seems to come across.  Just my charming personality coming through.  :lol:  Yes, morphed creatures do not have a converted casting cost, amiright?

I kinda agree about Crypt Vs Pillar, but if you recall how effective Trix did at Waterbury, do you think that more people will start using it to fight today's meta?

If not then it is true that pillar > crypt.

[d4ddy]

I have been messing with this build after I made a R/G Kird Ape deck for fun, then I started reading this thread and it inspired me to try and make it tournament worthy. I went through a number of different builds trying out numerous different cards (hey I even had Blastoderm in there once, eeK). I am currently testing the following build though I am still working on it.

//Creatures-24
4 Kird Ape
2 Skyshroud Elite
4 River Boa
3 Troll Ascetic
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Gorilla Shaman
2 Mogg Fanatic
3 Hidden Gibbons (not sure whether to put them here or in spells, but whatever)

//Mana-22
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
4 Land Grant
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
2 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Treetop Village

//Spells-14
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Shock
3 Rancor
3 Root Maze
2 Ankh of Mishra

--Sideboard--
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Artifact Mutation
2 Naturalize
3 Null Rod
2 Electrostatic Bolt (good against angel but not sure yet)
1 Pyrokinesis (playing around with it)

As far as the Land Grant vs. Fetch debate I settled on both as they are both good and bad, I think 2 fetch is good enough b/c usually I just get the one mountain with them, unless of course my opponent isn’t playing nonbasic hate. plus the 5 damage I would take with ankh in play plus the effect of root maze, I simply wouldn’t put it down late in the game. Anyways, as far as creatures, I made it a very strong aggro deck with some hate and more in the SB, I usually side out the fanatics and elites first for extra hate, pillar is OK, but I haven’t tested it against storm decks, where I think it will shine. I’m thinking of going up to 4 Naturalize in the SB due to comments in this thread, I’ll test it with an oversized SB and see what I take more.

As far as matchups go, I thought control slaver was my strongest matchup, but if they go aggro with platinum angel and pentavus, they can sometimes out race me, hence the electrostatic bolts in the sideboard, anyone have any comments on that? As far as ankh goes, I want to run 4 (alas I only own 2) b/c it hates any deck with fetchlands and oftentimes wins me games vs. anything if I can drop one first turn. Ideal situation:
-Drop foothills, fetch land, drop gibbons or some counter bait (mox monkey)
-then drop ankh with some acceleration (ESG, mox, lotus)
if you go first then you are now one land ahead of the game and they are probably taking either 2 or 5 their first turn, from here you just drop like 2 lands and keep dropping threats until their dead.

Another good first turn with this deck is Gibbons, Gibbons, b/c you are almost guaranteed a 2nd turn 4/4 creature b/c they will mostlikely brainstorm in response looking for a counter or counter the second one.

Idunno, sofar I am still tweeking b/c overall I find this build to not be stunning, but it is definitely more fun to play against combo or any other deck for that matter. Please let me know what you think.

[MCS]

Case and point: pyro > crypt for any combo matchup, which is the primary reason to run crypt in this deck, therefore, pyro > crypt!

Yep, I think you're right (especialy since root maze is autowin vs dr4gon, so I don't fear it).

2 Mogg Fanatic

Don't you think they are just a little bit 2 much with lavamncers, bolts and shocks? I know you dislike welder, but I think that aditional lavamancer/gibon/elite would suit your deck better than fanatics.

Regarding ankh, seems we have a diferent experience with it. Against what gauntlet did you run ankh, and against wich deck it was best (and against wich it didn't work)?

Also, you're running trolls that I always found a litle bit 2 slow, how do they work for you and when do you usualy drop them in game?

[d4ddy]

first of all, i think your right about mogg fanatic, they have allways been the first things to side out, so i think i might take them out for another ankh and maybe another gibbons or mancer.

as far as ankh goes i find it excellent vs slaver and vs my friends u/w weenie deck (crucible/waste) and i think it would be amazing vs fish as well due to the fact they run like 6 fetches, it doesnt work well against combo, b/c they just go off before it can really hurt them anyways, but in those cases i concentrate on hating them out with pillar and root maze.

Troll is good even though he is slow, he is the late game solution i find, i drop 1cc threats early to beat and use extra mana for hate, he usually comes down turn 4-5 to finish the job along with my trees (unless i hit lotus, then he can drop 1st turn)

[Angel]

Just to make it clear, Root Maze isn't an autowin vs. Dragon. They can still draw the game through one, and their Duresses and even sideboard Ray of Revelations can deal with the Maze. It's decent hate, but it is far from an autowin.

-John

[SgW]

Just to make it clear, Root Maze isn't an autowin vs. Dragon. They can still draw the game through one, and their Duresses and even sideboard Ray of Revelations can deal with the Maze. It's decent hate, but it is far from an autowin.

-John

only play Ankh of Mishra  

[Revvik]

Ankh isn't autowin either - I believe there's a rules thing detailing how Necromancy can get around Ankh of Mishra.  If anyone knows the specifics please post them here: better knowledge of matchups like this can result in better performance overall.

[skirge5]

You have to go off during their turn using the necromancy. What happens is your lands come into play, and the active player effects go on the stack. Then, your effects go on the stack, placing the need for a necromancy target. The dragon is targeted and comes into play, putting its come into play ability on the stack, which resolves, removing everthing but it from the game. Then it dies. Begining the loop anew. Keep in mind the win conditon must also be an instant, or you have an essentialy infinite amount of damage flying at your dome.

[JamesPr]

So would either the red or green genju have a place in this deck?

Genju of the Cedars vs Treetop Village

Pros
Genju beats for one more for 2 colorless compared to Treetop's colorless and a green activation.
Genju comes back to your hand if your forest dies if it's already on it
Effectively has haste if played on a land if it's been in play for a turn and activated

Cons
Genju of the Cedars can only be played on a forest
Genju of the Cedars doesn't produce mana
Can't do treetop blocking tricks (Producing mana itself to activate it's own pump to block something)
Doesn't have trample
Lands that turn into creatures are vulnerable to creature destruction.

Genju of the Cedars vs Genju of the Spires

Pros
Has more toughness
better power and toughness combined overall than Genju of the Spires

Cons
Genju of the Spires hits for 6, while Genju of the Cedars only hits for four


http://cards.mtgnews.com/Cards/BK/Genju_of_the_Cedars.htmlhttp://cards.mtgnews.com/Cards/BK/Genju_of_the_Spires.html

[NicolaeAlmighty]

Interesting... I'm not sure if Genju of the Cedars is any better, but it does have its perks. Then again, it can easily be countered. Treetop always resolves and has his fun... I'll give it a lil playtesting tonight and try and post my results tomorrowish. It would be another reason to try and squeeze in Crucible somewhere...

[Dralock]

Gingu of the ceders looks good on paper...But the reality is that you might as well be playing a troll out, considering its G2 to use on the turn it comes out.  And then you have to spend 2 every time you want to use it, which could just as easily be regeration mana.

Its better as defense, obviously.  Especially with crucible.  It is also better for mana drain purposes....But treetop village is even better for that situation.

[NicolaeAlmighty]

I did a little tinkering with Gingu, and honestly it would require a lot of changes. The forest count would need to be updated, throwing off the balance this deck needs to maintain. Secondly, a lot of tempo is lost when you go first turn Forest>Gingu. Next turn you don't get an attack, an active Mancer, or even an active Shaman. I don't like the tempo loss on it. Sure, Treetop has the same problem, but when it all comes down to it, Treetop VS Gingu is like Wooded Foothills VS Land Grant. In the end, the Gingu and the Grant can be countered.

[Revvik]

"Genju"

And it does look like it'd be better in an aggressive Stompy variant, using stuff like Hidden Gibbons and Hidden Guerillas.  Unless anyone has any testing to prove otherwise, I'm fairly certain now that the Genju of the Cedars / Spires isn't a worthwhile inclusion.

[xrobx]

I haven't had a chance yet to scan over all of BOKs new offerings, but I will in the near future.

As for the genjus...okay, the first thing I need to point out is the idea behind treetop.  It is a beatstick, a mana producer, cannot be countered, and is not affected by root maze.  All of these characteristics make it extremely playable in the decklist we've put forth.  However, that doesn't mean we cannot test out a few ideas and possibly make changes to this powerful, low budget deck.

Let's look at our creature layout...

Shaman is staying; no questions asked.

Lavamancer deals with welders, and other annoyances (ie. fish, sui, etc.)

River boa owns against control.  Plain and simple.  Rancor it, see how the other player likes it

ESG is a mana producer that gets under 3sphere, and at worst is a shitty 2/2 that can inflict damage.

Kird ape...what can be said about kird ape...well, it's 1 mana for a 2/3.  That seems pretty productive.  We'll come back to this...

Treetop village.  Mentioned above, is very crucial to this decks ability of generating mana and creatures out of nowhere, and is unaffected by root maze.

That leaves 1 possible choice for creature swapping, and that's the ape.  For 1 mana, often times the opponent will let him slide in, assuming they'll be able to take care of him.  If you had anything else in your hand for 1 mana, likely, you'd play it first.  All of these drops are better first turn than the ape:  root maze, shaman, mancer.  At the 2 cc level, however, you gameplan changes.  If you can drop an ape with a rancor on its back, it is often better than any other creature in the deck with a first turn rancor on it's back (negating boa; he needs 3 mana to do this; therefore, a rancored ape > a normal boa).  Your hate also comes in at the 2 cc level, if you've made sb changes (game 2/3).  Thus, the kird ape VS. genju debate only revolves around the first turn, yes?  No.  Although the initial drop is very important, if you go past turn 5/6, your deck loses immense amounts of power, as you find yourself being outdrawn.  If you establish an early lock however, it should be just long enough to destroy your opponent.

The genjus do not have the same ability as the recurring rancor, as it requires the enchanted land to be placed in the graveyard.  BUT, wouldn't you like your opponent to be wasting his disenchants/seals/naturalizes on your creature producing enchantment, rather than your hate?  Yes, you would.

First of all, I'm playtesting with the red genju simply because the 6 damage is very important as it accelerates my kill condition, and I'm not too worried about stepping up and fighting other creatures, and also I run rancor.   8 trample damage is very nice.  The whole idea is I'm willing to give up mana for damage, so being mana intensive better provide me with alot of damage.

From my intial playtesting results:



Synergy with root maze and gengu is amazing!! First turn ruby, taiga, gengu, root maze! Holy shit.  That means 1 more mana source and i hit for 6 turn 2.  I'm finding genju is sitting idolly by, waiting for my mana sources to come online.  I'm dropping tons of threats early on.   Excellent.

Usually at this point, ape could have been swinging for a few damage.  At game 2, genju finds himself sided out for some artifact hate.  No big deal.  Initial testing, so I need to try a few things.  Trisk eats the lands up too badly with genju mainboard.  Metalworkers own this deck unless you draw key removal (mancer, lightning bolt).


I need to playtest it more, but it seems that it serves the function well so far.  It gets under 3sphere locks, and other locks where usually your treetop is the only thing inflicting damage.  It doesn't provide mana, but with a good mana curve this deck can function okay without it.  Usually, the tree hits for 3 ONLY when you have available mana open.  An early genju can hit for 6 when you have mana open.  It needs more testing.

I'll post when I've come to a conclusion.
[/b]

[NicolaeAlmighty]

... With a first turn Mox, Land > Genju, Root Maze you couldn't activate it second turn unless you burn a Spirit Guide. And with all the Lava Darts/ Fire Ice/ Miscellaneous burn intended for Welders, a toughness of 1 isn't that good. I'd much rather replace that first turn Genju with the Ape, then second turn lay a Treetop, then either play a Boa or Rancor or Elite OR anything. That's 2 damage minimum turn 2, potential 5-9 damage turn 3.