[Discussion] Building a Better Hate Deck, or RG Tempo

[Revvik]

Instead of potential stalling by the opponent.  One thing that would up the playability of the Genjus: they CAN be played on dual lands, right?  It says "Enchant Forest" with a capital F.  I'm unclear as to the rules on this.

[koxl0003]

Instead of potential stalling by the opponent.  One thing that would up the playability of the Genjus: they CAN be played on dual lands, right?  It says "Enchant Forest" with a capital F.  I'm unclear as to the rules on this.

Yes, this works. A Taiga could be enchanted by Genju of the Cedars, and so could a Tropical Island, Bayou, or a Savannah.

The Betrayers of Kamigawa FAQ answers this question. It can be found here:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=5262074#post5262074

[NicolaeAlmighty]

Well, that makes things a wink better. I was under the impression that they could only do basics. Well, now some more tinkering is in order, although I still don't think they're better than Treetops. The Genju of the Cedars is a good bet, nice solid power/ toughness. I personally don't like the red Genju... Not right now anyways. The format is too warped towards frying welders... Could prove bad.

[MCS]

Cedars are bd and they just don't fit in the idea behind the deck. Treetop is great since early in game it is mana, late in game it's a beatstick.

I've been testing the deck lately, and I must say that I have some quite interesting conclusions. First, at the end I switched back to ankh of mishra's. After several matches they turned out quite good, so I decided to stick with them.

My final decklist is next:

//NAME: Critters
//    Creatures : 24
        4 Gorilla Shaman
        4 Grim Lavamancer
        4 Kird Ape
        4 Skyshroud Elite
        3 River Boa
        4 Elvish Spirit Guide
//    Utility spells: 10
        4 Root Maze
        3 Ankh of Mishra
//    Additional damage: 8
        4 Rancor
        4 Lightning Bolt
//    Mana: 13
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mountain
        1 Forest
        4 Wooded Foothills
        4 Taiga
        4 Treetop Village
//    LD: 5
        4 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine
SB:  3 Artifact Mutation
SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  4 Null Rod
SB:  4 Naturalize

I wouldn't change this decklist for nothing, perhaps null rod's can be switched with pyrostatic pillar, but in my opinion null rod is more versatile. I played against several decks, winning most of them (including oath of druids decks). This deck can beat both combo and control.

[NicolaeAlmighty]

First off, Sprit Guide is rarely a beater. That should go under mana. Secondly, I dunno bout your sideboard... 4 Naturalizes but only 3 Artifact Mutations? In a metagame that is damn near all artifacts? I think you may need 4 more slots of burn... whether it be Fire/ Ice, Shock, Electrostatic Bolt, etc. Only 3 River Boas? I'm not sure how you can justify that.. Those guys are amazing in this meta. Ah well. Got any tourney results with this list?

[Negator13]

I think the completely necessary cards you have to run are 4 Rootmaze and 4 Pillar. They are excellent combo hosers ad greatly slow down/hurt control decks.

I think Naturalize is also a must for the MD, since if you think about it it's the best removal available to you.

River Boa is your best creature, followed by Lavamancer. I'd be loath to run any spell or creature over 2 mana, because Drain @ 3 is a death knell for aggro decks.

Gorilla Shaman is better than Null Rod MD, but I'd probably run 3 Rods in the board, along with 4 Mutations.

Lava Dart and Lightning Bolt are your strongest burn options, I think Dart is better for its near uncounterability vs. Welders, but you should probably run both.

[[supa_t(im)]]

I would also advocate more MD burn, and MD naturalize.

I run 8 MD burn spells, and MD naturalize.

However, I only run 16 creatures, not including ESG.
4 River Boa
4 Kird Ape
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Grim Lavamancer

I'm not sure if thats enough.

My SB contains both 4 Pillar and 3 Null Rod.  Root maze, null rod, and Pillar all make combo an easier match.

[xrobx]

@MCS: I like your decklist a lot more now There are subtle differences between mine and yours, and mainly that concerns the addition of a 4th boa, and the mana sources.

@Tim: I find that the MD naturalize is not necessary.  With 16 creatures, you're also on the fence for control zoo as opposed to aggro zoo.  Play what you will, but I've found much better results with an intensified aggro zoo build than I have with a control build.  However, going control allows you to run things like gibbons, that enchantment that pitches a random card for damage (stormbind is it?) and other versatile cards (like MD naturalize).  I find that with the addition 4 creatures (treetops), maindeck rootmaze, shaman, ankh, and quick beats all work together very nicely to produce a sort of aggro-lockdown feeling deck.  I was right about the ankhs, after much playtesting they are definatly a good filler in this deck, and deserve the spot over burn.

From my playtesting, the maindeck naturalize tends to make you sit and wait on your hand; something you don't necessarily want to be doing.  Often times against a MWS deck you'll find yourself sitting with artifact mutation in hand, and naturalize in hand; but that is completely different.  For the most part, you want to be swinging and dropping threats each turn, even if ankh/maze is down.  Don't hesitate to drop fetches under maze/ankh either, yes it can hurt and slow you a lot but the mana curve of this deck is crucial to its success. Sometimes hardcasting an elvish spirit guide is simply the best play.  Yes, it is a mana source primarily  but if you already have 3 mana producers on the board, it's often better to drop a 2/2 than swing with a 3/3 treetop.

The 8 MD burn spells are not neccesary, as I will explain.  Welder removal is key, as is killing the opponent with great mana to damage ratio spells.  That's a given.  However, when do you find you need the extra 4 burn spells?  From my testing, only against 4cc.  Even then, you can resolve an early lavamancer and wait for the precise time to bolt the angel, if the mancer isn't successful at killing the morphed token.  There are times when 4cc can get out of hand with protecting the angel, and let's face it, unless you can deal with it right away, you're going to be schooled.  Angel flies for a life advantage of 8 per turn, so unless you can outrace 8 a turn, you're doomed.  Your best wish is that he is stupid and leaves angel un-attacking; then you slide in with boa.  Ideally, you want to drop your maze/ankh early, and beat in before he gets the angel off.  In a heavy 4cc environment, I could see the use of 8 MD burn spells, as it guarentees removal of big ugly, but other than that, they are just not necessary for your other matchups.  I've not yet tested lava dart in this deck, as I feel comfortable with lightning bolt for removing angels

My sb contains:
4x artifact mutation
4x naturalize
4x pyrostatic pillar
3x null rod

I'm finding the least useful is in fact null rod.  When do you find yourself siding it in, and against what decks??  The other 3 cards get used all the time, and usually ankh is the first to be dropped.

I'm considering testing black vise now for the 4c matchup, but it's just a thought.  Sounds interesting, but probably won't do as well as I think (although, synergy with root maze and ankh against there fetch-manabase looks quite nice )

[Revvik]

Null Rods stop Control Slaver, seeing as how the majority of the CS field is in fact Goth Slaver, and rarely have I seen them packing Rack n Ruin to deal with the nuisance.

on ESG: This is useful, but what two-drop do you really need on turn one?  The best use for it is forcing their hand early on:
Turn 1:
You - Land, ESG -> Root Maze.
Opponent - Force of Will
You - Mox, River Boa OR Kird Ape OR you get the idea.
If you plan on running ESG, you have to realize that most of the time, you'll be pitching it.  In desperation will you be turning it sideways.  ou'll also have to ask yourself if you're skilled enough with your deck to make up the card disadvantage of removing a card from the game for a slight mana increase.

8 Burn Spells: Absolutely necessary.  Every point of damage is crucial.  Lets look at some numbers here:

............................. ...More Burn R/G:..........Less Burn R/G:
Bolts:........................4.... ...........................4
Fire/Ice:....................4........ .......................0
Lavamancers:............3................ ...............3
Total Ways to............---.............................---
 kill Welders:.............11.............. .................7

Control Slaver's Counters: 8
With a higher count of pinpoint removal, your odds of keeping Welders off the table are much higher.  This forces them to hardcast their artifact bombs, meaning you can put those maindeck Mutations or Naturalizes (whatever you run in your build) to use.

This isn't just useful for fighting Control Slaver (the most popular control deck in the field).  Spot-killing unmorphed Angels, giving Fish players fits, and putting Negators and Meddling Mages six feet under keeps the path to your opponent clear for your Apes.

Also, more burn means your opponent can never 'stabilize' at 2 life.

While it may seem like 'More Burn' and Artifact Mutation/Naturalize/whatever floats turns R/G into a more 'controllish' build, some rules must never be forgotten:
1) Burn is NEVER dead
2) Artifact destruction is NEVER dead

And yes, the second point is true, otherwise Gorilla Shaman would have never made the cut.

I am a strong advocate of at least 2, more likely 3 maindeck Artifact Mutations.  I have an intense dislike of Workshop builds, and running one card that almost guarantees them not stealing game 1 is very appealing.

Now, a question:
Since part of the strength of this deck is based on the hate cards it utilizes, knowing how to metagame with a deck like this is extremely important.

The Star City tournaments are run in New York, Virginia, and Chicago.  There is a defined metagame for each.  For the most part, I am only able to show for the Chicago ones, but I am interested in hearing what you would run in each of these areas (Virginia with its Control dominance, etc)

[the boogie man]

Rather than run the occasionally dead artifact destruction, why not just run hull breach?

[[supa_t(im)]]

Rather than run the occasionally dead artifact destruction, why not just run hull breach?

Because sorcery speed is savagely anti-tech.

Which is why I advocate naturalize MD.  Although after some thought, it may be better to MD 4 naturalize only in oath filled metas.  But you can't deny its usefulness against any deck right now.

[NicolaeAlmighty]

Enchantments as a whole aren't as dominating as Artifacts. I'm aware of the fact that Naturalize can still hose artifacts and keep an eye out for enchantments, but Mutation is game swinging. The same can't be said for Naturalize. I personally run 3 Mutations main, 3 Naturalizes in the board. I see a hell of a lot more Workshop than I do Oath where I play.

But if all we're planning for with Naturalize is Oath, why Naturalize? Why not go with something that is either free or costs 1, ie Reverent Silence/ Emerald Charm? Naturalize is only here right now because of crazy randomness and Oath. This deck should be able to beat most crazy randomness, so why not aim towards a cheaper anti- Oath card (if such a thing exists)?

[the boogie man]

How aboot simplify?

[xrobx]

@revikk:  you make some solid points, but you feel that burn is absolutely essential?  Sorry if I'm not making too much sense right now but I'm a bit drunk still...sorry.  So then, you're saying that giving the fish player/sui player/meddling mage player a benefit of the doubt is unheard of....well, personally I don't worry about sui, or fish.  Lavamancer and sheer tempo can annihilate both of those.  The mage player may be a problem, but they will simply name lavamancer and bolt, leaving open your only counterable spell (whether it be incinerate, or magma jet).

Personally, I like consistancy in something like ankh as it gives me the option to deny crucible locks, stop mana intensive builds (like fetch bases; even if they try to run basics), and inflicts damage as any of my creatures would.  This deck is huge, and very good if you know how to play it.  It is one of the first aggro builds with versatility and hard beats that can force through an early victory.

As for the oath comment, I do believe in function rather than specific hate.  I find MD naturalize/sb naturalize much more efficient than targetted removal.  Let's face it, no matter how good you are at metagame choices, you can never be dead on.  Hence, a spell like naturalize can fit the spot and take care of things you may not have expected, as a simplify may not be able to do.  Naturalize doubles up on the artifact job, and does a damn good job I must say.  There simply is not a better spell available at this point in time for art/enchants., so I cannot see naturalize being cut for something like simplify.  However, clearly I believe the choice here is elvish lyrist if you intend on enchantment hate.  It is alive, swings, and takes down enchantments at instant speed.

[NicolaeAlmighty]

Simplify is as big of a joke as Hull Breach. Instant speed is key here... Plus if I have a Rancor on the table, I don't want to give the opponent another chance to counter it. I see what you mean bout Naturalize, and I do play them in the side, but I was just curious. It is much better against the random deck that may be encountered.

However, 8 burn spells is a must. 4 Lightning Bolt definitely, but the other other four are very much needed. If the Mage play lays a Mage naming Bolt and another naming Mancer, that's perfectly fine by me. There is still burn left, and he can't save his counters for the burn with a new threat coming down every turn- sometimes in multiples. Fire/Ice is my personaly choice.

[PeAcH]

@NicolaeAlmighty : totally agree with you. 8 Burn spells are a must. And Bolt and Fire and Ice are the best option. Dart is good, but it’s good just against welders. Throwing 1 point of damage to the dome is not really aggressive  

My maindeck hate choices would be:

Null Rod (TPS, Control-Slaver)

Naturalice (Oath, Stax; and really usseful in almost any random match)

@Willow_Wisperer: instant speed versus sorcery-Hull breach speed is much better.

The creature base should be changed a bit, but I would personally run:

Lavamancer
Kird ape
Skyshround elite
Gorilla shaman
River boa

I’m not really fan of manlands…but how about trying Treetop village over Mishra’s factory?

Pros: bigger tempo clock as you have gained one full turn at least swinging twice. Mishra wouldn’t come first turn as you would want to lay down a thread to start swinging with both of them.

Cons: more mana intensive, the coming into play is a real disadvantage as it goes against the pure aggressive nature of the deck.

On sideboard issues:

IMHO the best choices would be:

Artifact mutation
Ground seal
Pyroblast
Pirostatic pillar
Rack and ruin
Root maze

[the boogie man]

I believe that root maze is strictly maindeck material, and that it should be automatically a four-of.

[NicolaeAlmighty]

I do agree that Root Maze is maindeck material, however I only run 3 main. Null Rod shouldn't be maindeck though. I keep it in the side strictly for Control Slaver, and even then it isn't really needed. Just another thing for them to counter to let my real threats through.

The great thing about this deck is Control Slaver means nothing. I played against a Slaver deck last night and he actually sided out his Slaver for a Platinum Angel in hopes that he could keep it on the board. There isn't much for a Slaver player to do with a RG Beats turn. Null Rod saves that hassle, though. I do side it in against Storm, but it can be very weak (stupid Rebuild). Best bombs are Maze and Pillar.

[PeAcH]

@Willow_Wisperer:Yes, you are right. If leaving 8-10 slots for MD hate I think that the choices should be:

4 of If playing with them:

Root Maze
Pirostatic pillar

Depending on the meta:

3-4 Null Rod
2-4 Naturalice

So a good mix would be:

4 Root Maze
3 Null Rod
2 Naturalice

or

4 Root maze
4 Pirostatic pillar
2 Naturalice

Great against TPS

But I´m not really sure about the MD hate...maybe a good way to try to stablish this could be first arrangeing the creature base ( I think the discussion has taken a good path on creature choices) and burn and leaving enough space for Hate (8 to 10 dedicated slots).

[NicolaeAlmighty]

Baaad idea. Maindecking Pillar is bad. Maindeck hate should consist of 3-4 Root Mazes, and MAYBE something else... But it must be a very useful something else... Like Mutation or Naturalize. Otherwise, you're better off going with beats.

[Freelancer]

Can anybody post a regular decklist? it seems a bit full with suggestions idea's etc. and I have troubles finding the list...

IMHO if you run root maze as a 4-off main you should also be running treetop village...

[PeAcH]

A sample UNpowered list could be:

4 Kird ape
4 Lavamancer
4 Skyhound elite
4 Gorilla shaman
4 River boa

4 Ligning bolt
4 Fire and ice
4 Root maze
4 Null rod
2 naturalice

1 Strip mine
4 Wasteland
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Blodstained mine
4 forest
3 Mountain

Sideboard:

4 Pyroblast
2 Naturalice
4 pirostatic Pillar
4 Artifact mutation
1 CoTW

[NicolaeAlmighty]

No manlands? I definitely think the Rods should be moved or dropped. In their place should be either some manlands or... Utility. Rancor isn't here. Rancor should really be here... especially with 20 critters to boost.

[PeAcH]

Maybe
-4 Rod

+1 naturalice (really versatile)
+2 rancor
+1 ??

could be an opption...although I think 4 Rod is a must against a field with lots of TPSs and Control slavers.

As I said I´m not a huge fan of man lands as they would be added in place of some basic lands....and I don´t really want to be randomly screwed by Mr.CoTW and MrsWasteland

[NicolaeAlmighty]

3 Rancors minimum. Actually, I'd run 4 since you have 20 freakin critters. As for Crucible/ Waste, if you want to be paranoid that's ok. I personally would rather have the manlands for other games and probably win those other matches. Either way, I suppose.

[Revvik]

Null Rod is not a maindeck choice!  Taking this deck in the direction if Fish is a terrible idea, one only has to look at Fish's current status to realize this.

Mana denial is the only thing Null Rod is good for (unless you're playing against Control Slaver, but Null Rod isn't even necessary in this matchup).  Mana denial doesn't even come close to being the strategy of this deck, despite the cards maindecked that seem to contradict what I just said.

Gorilla Shaman: Eats moxen (Welder targets) also prevents the likelihood of a topdecked Tinker stealing the game (no artifacts to sacrifice)
Wasteland: Answers Tolarian Academy, Library of Alexandria, Mishra's Workshop.  If none of those targets are available to be crippled, then it's only good for keeping an opponent off double blue, which never really happens these days.
Root Maze: Green Time Walk.  Seriously.  Slows opponent down by turns - their first turn is negated.

Null Rod does not hate on the level of those three alone.

About Treetop Village: Already been established as better than Mishra's Factory simply because it can tap for green to regenerate Boa.  Can't be chump-blocked.

xrobx: Meddling Mage doesn't even really stop burn spells.  So long as three different types of direct damage are present (Lavamancer, Bolt, and a third of your preference) the Mage can always be burnt out in response to his own ability.

About Rancor: Definitely include Rancor.  Even Gorilla Shaman can become a threat that MUST BE ANSWERED, or at least remove a Juggernaut and then give you back his Rancor.

[PeAcH]

I would run that mana base...as 6 fetchs,4 waste and stripmine are good lavamancer food. Also 4 forest is almost the minimum.

Which man lands would you add?

As I said, I prefer Treetops over mishras.
If I ran them,  I would run 3 or maybe even just 2...(as that would mean 22 critters + 3 rancors which is more than enough hard beatz) in exchange of a forest and the ?? card which was left. That would rise the producers up to 23 which is more than reasonable for an aggro deck.

[NicolaeAlmighty]

I would definitely add Treetop. Bigger, badder and much better for the mana. How many? Well, I personally run 4 and don't have the extra 2 fetchlands. However many you felt necessary to squeeze in I suppose.

[Revvik]

The extra two fetches are nicer in multi-color control, although I did use them in an old mono-blue list for optimum thinning.

That said, you're only running two colors. and six fetchlands are detrimental to the Root Maze plan.  I would personally stick to 4 Wooded Foothills.

[Freelancer]

My list is actually quite close to peaches only mine has:

-4x null rod, +4x pyrostatic pillar (rapes control and combo)

-2 basics -2 fetch, +4x treetop village (if you run rootmaze you should run village IMHO)

-2 elite, +2 rancor


I have no clue what to drop for additional rancors...maybe I should drop the elite's completely and add 2x rancor...not sure any suggestions?