Can U/G madness Adapt to beat Oath?

[doomhed]

Hallo All. I have taken a few months off from magic and Returned to a few surprises: Oath Reborn, Doomsday un-restricted and ReBroken, and StarCity holding P9 events.  with the upcoming Waterbury tourney only about 3 weeks away, I am scrambling from my playtesting looking to shore up the Oath matchup. Here is the Basic Build


U/G Madness

4x Tropical Island
4x Polluted Delta
4x Wasteland
1x Strip mine
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Sapphire
4x Forest
4x Island

4x Force of Will
4x Circular Logic
4x Brainstorm
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
4x Aquamoeba
3x Waterfront Bouncer

3x Null Rod

4x Arrogant Wurm
4x Wild Mongrel
4x Basking Rootwalla

Sideboard
Xx Echoing Truth
Xx BEB
Xx Ground Seal
Xx Naturalise
Xx Oxidize
Xx Annul
Xx Wonder
Xx Magus of the Unseen

Annul was godly in the Workshop/Dragon/Fish/Crucible metagame of Newington, but not as much @ waterbury, where I sided it out against many decks. I am not Exactly sure whether Bouncer or Annul would be stronger Maindeck Verses Oath. Bouncer Helps Against Any Creaturs, and allows for 3 more Madness outlets (always good), as well as stopping platinum angel (which, when welded, I have no answer for maindeck). But
Annul stops turn 1 Trinisphere, Turn 1 jugg, Dragon Enchantments, Oath itsself, and many other nasty artificial things that happen earlier in the game.

Any Imput Will be Appreciated

Doomhed

[Nijo]

I played 2 Bouncers MD last Dülmen and i very much liked them. Not only are they strong (albeit a bit slow) vs Oath, they also helped vs Gorger, Auriok Salvager Combo and a tinkered DC.

[savekeeper]

Although I never tested this, I myself will be trying a white splash. White gives you Sword to Plowshares, Ray of Revelation and Meddling Mage.

StP is great against Oath game 1, welder.deck, Dragon, Darksteel Collossus and ofcourse aggro decks. In game 2 you can side out the StP for Ray of Revelation and Meddling Mage focussing purely on the Oath of Druids itself. Ray of Revelation is also great against Dragon and Meddling Mage is descent against other forms of combo.

Also, has anyone tried Daze instead of Circular Logic? While CL is great when you can cast it I often found it a little slow. CL also doesn't protect your turn 1/2 madness outlet while Daze possibly can.

[j]

Any Imput Will be Appreciated

Why are you (all) running blue fetches in U/G Madness? Heath/Foothills allows for 1st turn brainstorm, second turn shuffle -> beats with two basics out. It is relevant to beating oath because you will have better cards in your hand

[andrewpate]

With only 4 fetches, it would be hard to run all green ones.  You might try 2 and 2 if you are worried about shuffling off a Brainstorm early (which is a smart thing to be worried about) while still being able to cast Wild Mongrel on turn 2.  A start such as "turn 1 Island, Brainstrom, turn 2 Windswept Heath ---> Forest, Wild Mongrel, Basking Rootwalla" is definitely really good.  The problem with 2 and 2 is that it leaves you with exactly the same amount of green mana as blue.  With 17 blue spells (not counting Force of Will) and only 12 green spells, it is fair to skew the mana slightly to the blue side, especially given the importance of blue spells such as Brainstorm, Ancestral Recall, and Circular Logic.  It is possible to beat Oath without casting a single green spell as long as you resolve a Waterfront Bouncer.  Of course, early green mana is clearly going to be a general necessity as you are trying to deal lethal as early as possible, preferrably not after turn 5 or 6 at the latest.  

@savekeeper
I would not recommend a splash of any kind.  Swords to Plowshares is certainly good, but you have good game against Oath anyway and can bring in Blue Elemental Blasts to win easily against Dragon.  Darksteel Colossus is also easily handled by Waterfront Bouncer--most decks Tinker him out, meaning one bounce is kaput.  If it's a combo deck that can actually make 11 mana, usually they are using Dark Ritual or other accelerants and cannot repeat the trick quickly.  Overall, the consistency of a 2-color manabase (8+ basics!) is far superior to the effectiveness of a third color.

Some folks over on Star City have been talking about UGR Madness, and I can see some strengths there.  Fiery Temper, Violent Eruption, and Anger can all be good to have around.  I view red as the much stronger #3 man in Madness.  But that deck uses Bazaars and tons of broken mana to "go off" in a way--it is a 3-color aggro deck that uses Madness as one accelerant among many, instead of a focused Null Rod aggro build like UG.  Without the figures handy, I believe that the UGR deck has been performing a bit better, but if you have that much power what are you doing playing Madness?  As a budget deck, a tight UG is one of your best bets right now, because it is far more resilient than Fish to nonbasic hate and Oath decks.

[serracollector]

B2B>>>Null Rod in the current meta....so why not?  My 2 cents.

[+t]

Seal of Removal and Guilded Drake are possibilities.  Drake is also a nice counteractive play v.s. decks that like to play tinker--->DSC.

[pinoy_tech]

I was just curious to why is wonder in your SB? I think +2 Wonder -1 Arrogant wurm, -1 Waterfront Bouncer MD is a sound choice. This is one of the reasons why UG madness wins against aggro decks. Undercosted fat that flies. I'm also interested in your match-up agaisnt combo. When I was playing this deck, it was in an aggro & control meta, no combo at all.

Your match-up against Oath should be good. Your current list has 8 counters, and if they resolve an oath, you have 3 'Bouncers. Game one should be yours, albiet, not easily won, as they pack more counters that you. Games 2 & 3 would be more difficult if they are playing the meandeck version, since they will board in the "angel" set-up, but you still have good game since you get to board in naturalize. If it isn't the meandeck version, you should win w/ good gameplay. Though I don't know how you would do against the Eternal Witness/Yawgmoth's Will version.

-tech

[jpmeyer]

Gilded Drake is a great sideboard card, but I don't know if it needs to go maindeck.  I'm convinced that Annul should be maindeck since artifacts are probably the biggest threat in the format right now.

[+t]

Regarding Aquamobea:  Do you really need that many discard outlets?  You have 4 Mongrel and 3 bouncers.  COuld you up the bouncer count to 4, and have room in the maindeck for something else?  Like MD annul, Wonder, Something else I know I should be adding but forgot?

[doomhed]

B2B>>>Null Rod in the current meta....so why not?  My 2 cents.

I dont think so.  Null rod is very important against control Slaver, 4CC, and is pretty good against random Idiots running Scepter-chant decks. it is sideboarded out in many matchups, but it is for different cards each time. I like to win game 1 against control slaver, as games against it go long and I dont want any more time Dealing with old man of the sea then I have to.  

I was just curious to why is wonder in your SB? I think +2 Wonder -1 Arrogant wurm, -1 Waterfront Bouncer MD is a sound choice. This is one of the reasons why UG madness wins against aggro decks. Undercosted fat that flies.

Since there are NO pure aggro decks in the format the only things you need to really worry about are random scrubs, FCG, and 5/3. there are cards that deal with 5/3 in the sideboard, even though you can send out fat almost as fast (and you have counters). FCG is the only probable matchup where I side in wonder. Ironically, they come in against monblue control, to help beat around phids, and against any scrub deck. they also get around sundering titans that like to block my little dudes. Also, I would NEVER want to drop a wurm. it is the thing your deck does best.

I'm also interested in your match-up agaisnt combo. When I was playing this deck, it was in an aggro & control meta, no combo at all.

Well, My overall matchup changes depending on the sideboard/maindeck mix. Against Dragon and TPS, the maindeck annuls are HUGE. I cannot count the number of times Annul saved my ass at Newington. I think dropping the wonders from the maindeck is the only way to add more efficient hate cards to the maindeck, such as annul, echoeing trith, waterfront bouncer. My matchup against Meandeath is hard, but not unwinnable. you need to practice that matchup as much as you have to Practice to play Meandeath. your entire goal is to go for the nuts and stall exactly enough. Countering rituals many times wins your games. Belcher you just own because it is way to inconsistant.

Regarding Aquamobea: Do you really need that many discard outlets? You have 4 Mongrel and 3 bouncers. COuld you up the bouncer count to 4, and have room in the maindeck for something else? Like MD annul, Wonder, Something else I know I should be adding but forgot?

The bouncers are actually the optional card. Being a discard outlet is just Gravy. The Aquaboebas are godly, as their built in p/t is out of fire range, and you can switch it to avoid old man. Thanx to Rich Shay, I hate that card more than ever. The little guys are great. Also, more outlets are never a bad thing, as Smart players try to counter your outlets first.  

This deck is extremely versitile and hard to hit with hate. I have had soo many non-Rich Shay opponants say " I dont really have anything to bring in...". The decks Sleeper nature allows it to fly under the radar, own some n00bs, and out play as many others as possible.

[Phantomz]

A recent U/g decklist that caught my attention was Glenn Miller's Manefesto Madness.

Here's the decklist, I hope he doesn't mind.

Manefesto Madness
 
Deck
4x Island
3x Tropical Island
4x Forest
3x Windswept Heath
3x Polluted Delta
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Emerald
1x Gush
2x Curiosity
1x Timewalk
1x Ancestral Recall
3x Back to Basics
3x Energy Flux
3x Circular Logic
3x Daze
4x Force of Will
2x Wonder
2x Waterfront Bouncer
2x Arrogant Wurm
3x Aquamoeba
4x Wild Mongrel
4x Basking Rootwalla
1x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine  

Sideboard
2x Arrogant Wurm
3x Gilded Drake
3x Chill
4x Echoing Truth
3x Maze


Some interesting points to mention is the B2B,Energy Flux and Curiosity maindeck.I'm curious to know if anybody else has tried curiosity in U/g and if a few slots are worth it. 2 Bouncers are also maindeck and I'm not sure if the optimal number is 2 or 3 but they definitely help out against oath as everyone has stated. Daze is runned and I really like 3 of them in the deck since many people find Circular Logic is a bit slow.

The deck is odd with 2 Arrogant's in the SB and I'm not exactly sure what the reason is.

One question I have is, what is the optimal number of fetch lands? I've seen many Legacy builds running 6 but most run just 4. I'm assuming we run 4 because we run wastelands.

Lastly, Ray of Revelation is great since you don't even need to splash white as you can just use the flashback against oath.

[pinoy_tech]

I find that list to be oriented towards an artifact heavy field. With the afore mentioned maindeck 'flux and B2B it looks to have good game against WS based decks. I also notice it to be much more counter heavy than the usual builds floating around, making the match quite good against control while still maintaining its aggro win. My only concerns are curiousity draw engine being only at 2. Also that there is only 2 strip effects in the deck. Anyone wanna test this out on MWS or apprentice? I'm quite interested in seeing results for this particular list.

-tech

[doomhed]

the asddest part about this deck is that even with its maindeck skewed towards anti-artifact, it got swept by 5/3 in the top 8. the deck seems inherantly too inconsistant for madness. I have shuffled it up a few times and did not like it at all.

[Dante]

This deck is extremely versitile and hard to hit with hate.

except for Chalice.  Chalice for 2 seems to rape you.  But then, most people don't maindeck Chalice's anymore...

Dante

PS - when you talk maindeck Annuls, what did you put in their place, Waterfront Bouncers??

[Raven Fire]

Also, has anyone tried Daze instead of Circular Logic? While CL is great when you can cast it I often found it a little slow. CL also doesn't protect your turn 1/2 madness outlet while Daze possibly can.

I run Daze over Logic because I think that counters that don't come on-line until turn three are the suck in T1.  But I also run CoW and really try to go after my opponent's mana base to keep them in Daze range.  Old Fish habits die hard.

[andrewpate]

I think Annuls for Null Rods.  Null Rod doesn't really beat anything hands-down anymore, and Fish ends up boarding them out alot.  Annul is better than Null Rod against Stax, 5/3, Dragon, even Fish (because it counters at least Curiosity and Crucible of Worlds, while Null Rod is obviously bad since they run it).  The ability to cram 3 or 4 Rods into an aggro deck and steal games has probably passed.

That said, Null Rod is still savage against most non-Dragon combos.  It rapes everything from MeanDeath to Belcher to Clamp-Kobolds.  It is also tremendous against anyone playing Affinity--in fact, I might argue that the tendency of many players to continue running Null Rod is one of the best arguments against playing Affinity in the first place, the Genesis Chamber combo version or the aggro version either one.  So I think Null Rod definitely has a place in the sideboard for these reasons, but it should be switched with the Annuls as far as maindecking is concerned.

[Tetre]

Doomhed, sorry you don't like the deck

If you read the event report, I bet with the odds in my Stax matchup, and they went against me in what should be one of this decks best matchups  sh*it happens, oh well

It's been a month since that list was valid, newer additions and modifications have been made (Wurms aren't needed for example).

I did try a black splash for Planarvoid in the board, and some tutor effects main....tried is all I did, there wasn't enough gas after the boarding in most matchups (plus the mulligan factor).

Yes, Curiosity has been bumped up, and even some room was made for gold ole Berserk. A new splash gives one of the Oath players in my area fits.

If I had to rate this decks matchups, I'd do it as follows (Testing notes are not in front of me):

Stax  - Better than avg, I've gotten a TON of scoops
Oath - Game 1 mondo tough, after the board, more than 50-50 in your favour
Fish - Fish has a really tough time getting rid of a mongrel, so that's that
TPS/Doomsday - make the right counters and go for a smoke

In pure terms of aggro-control, this is a BLAST to play, runs in 5-proxy domain, and has maindeck hate for the field.  As Steven said, decks need to run at least 5 basic lands to have a chance these days. I agree with that statement.

Turn 2, with acceleration is all about getting the piece of hate you need, critters follow later.

Daze is amazing in the early game, and a turn 2 Rootwater thief makes oath go "oh crap"....I leave it to the audience to figure out where the Rootwater Thief goes. (Hint, Maze of Ith was the single biggest disappointment I had with the build).

Anyway, for a deck that started as a challange to fit Flux and B2B in the main, I had a good time working on it. I've seen people have a crap when a curiosity is cast on a Mongrel, and had Oath players switch decks because they are tired of getting hammered by various builds of madness in our area.  

Like all decks, you must build it to be as consistant as possible, and the board you build makes all the difference.

I keep a madness build in our gauntlet box, because some of the people in the Ottawa meta have started to copy it.  Fish is all but gone in our meta, and has been replaced by the tons of "Drones" tm (Shock_Wave) running either Stax or Oath.  This keeps them on their toes.

Anyways, for those who take up the madness and work on it...great, for those who don't ...that's fine too, magic is suppost to be fun.

Cheers,
Tetre

[Phantomz]

Does anybody think Energy Flux can be substituted for the 3 Null Rods main? As you guys already said, Null Rods shut down combo and affinity while Energy Flux shuts down Workshop Aggro. I currently don't have 3 Null Rods and was wondering if I could just substitute them for now until I buy some.

Another question is if Wonder is useful anymore? JP ran 2 wonders MD and I really like my guys to have flying.Space seems tight now that we run Waterfront Bouncers.

[Tetre]

For Oath and Stax, the first thing I side out is Wonder.  Evasion is only needed when you get into the Mirror...good point, I think I'll look into a wonderless madness build.

I like Flux, since It causes Stax to start sacking and reverses the first turn acceleration.  Stax can still weld in under a Rod though..so caveat emptor.

Tetre

[doomhed]

PS - when you talk maindeck Annuls, what did you put in their place, Waterfront Bouncers??

Yes, Bouncers were absolutely Awsome in testing as they rape oath and help you immensly VS 5/3 and 7/10

Does anybody think Energy Flux can be substituted for the 3 Null Rods main? As you guys already said, Null Rods shut down combo and affinity while Energy Flux shuts down Workshop Aggro. I currently don't have 3 Null Rods and was wondering if I could just substitute them for now until I buy some.

Another question is if Wonder is useful anymore? JP ran 2 wonders MD and I really like my guys to have flying.Space seems tight now that we run Waterfront Bouncers.

Question 1- I guess you could use them if they will work in your meta. at waterbury? proxy them.
Question 2- Did JP T16 at waterbury? No. I am even unsure if he was in the Top 32.  Dont use wonders maindeck. I may or may not use them in my Sideboard, depending on what I see @ waterbury before I fill out my Deck Reg. I got a 10 man team coming to waterbury, so scouting is gonna be huge.  they are good against monblue control and good against sui, the mirror, BoB, and to some extent 5/3 and fish. as you can see, these are almost all unplayable.

if anyone copies my Build for the A tourney, Please list it as a Team Batman Build, so that it Helps my Credibility. I plan to apply for full member status in about 60 days or so, and anything can help that along by proving I am a productive member of the online Community here.

[E Face]

in answering the question on how madness can beat oath, i think waterfront bouncers and/or gilded drake are the nuts, especially the bouncer, giving the madness player another discard outlet as well as removing threats not only to save himself from a fattie beatdown, but also clearing up the roads for his own creatures. the gilded drake is good, but i think that the waterfront is a stronger play.

ray of revelation has also shown to be good out of the sideboard for madness, whether its clearing an oath, screwing a dragon player over hardcore, or even hitting random player's food chain to stop his goblin insanity.

but the most hilarious answer to an oath deck is playing eon hub... no upkeep, no oath...muahahaha

[jpmeyer]

Question 2- Did JP T16 at waterbury? No. I am even unsure if he was in the Top 32.  Dont use wonders maindeck. I may or may not use them in my Sideboard, depending on what I see @ waterbury before I fill out my Deck Reg. I got a 10 man team coming to waterbury, so scouting is gonna be huge.  they are good against monblue control and good against sui, the mirror, BoB, and to some extent 5/3 and fish. as you can see, these are almost all unplayable.

Hell, I didn't even play Madness there .

But yeah, like Wonder doesn't give that much against a lot of the problem decks right now, so it's questionable.

[doomhed]

I thought you played Survival Madness at waterbury, as I was told by a member of Team NoName/Underground. if not, I apologise JP.


MY Current Testing Build

3x Annul
3x Waterfront Bouncer
3x Circular Logic
4x Force of will
4x Brainstorm
4x Aquamoeba
1x Ancestral recall
1x Time Walk
4x Basking Rootwalla
4x Arrogant Wurm
4x Wild mongrel
4x Polluted Delta
5x Island
4x Forest
4x Tropical Island
4x Wasteland
1x Strip mine
1x mox emerald
1x mox sapphire
1x black lotus

Sideboard
{Tenative}
3x Guilded Drake
4x Ground Seal
3x Beb
3x Null Rod
2x Energy Flux

The truth is, there are only 2 decks hurt by null rod- Belcher and Slavery decks. I expect alot of the less experienced control slaver players to switch to 5/3, given its ease of operation. this also may make 4CC come back in force, but I have a great game against them anyways. the annuls give me more answers to a first turn trinisphere, as well as messing up every combo deck's gameplan. the null rods definitely come in against slavery builds, as well as ground seals. I upped the maindeck Islands because of the increased Blue Count. when you side out blue cards, feel free to take an island for speed purposes. This is just the current Build we are testing, and this does not directly show what I am playing @ waterbury.

[dawgie]

I have some questions about your build.

1.) How does 3 Waterfront Bouncers work for you? Isn't 2 enough?
2.) are 5 draw spells enough?
3.) Is B2B not really SB material?

I also play U/G Madness and I have a hard time against Oath.

Thanks!

[doomhed]

I have some questions about your build.
1.) How does 3 Waterfront Bouncers work for you? Isn't 2 enough?
2.) are 5 draw spells enough?
3.) Is B2B not really SB material?
I also play U/G Madness and I have a hard time against Oath.

1.) It is Godly. You need to resolve one to win against Oath game 1 and it helps against any control slavery player who does the smart thing and craps out a Platty. it also helps random aggro matches, 4CC, 5/3, 7/10 Split, and it helps in the mirror.
2.) Yes. you have to remeber that they entire idea of madness is that this deck turns card disadvantage into card Parity, making the few card advantage sources you have better than in an average deck.
3.) I dunno. you dont have the same accelleration as MUC, so you dont have the ability to spit this out on turn 1 as easily. the decks this hurts the most are Landstill, 4CC, Stax, and Oath, but i would rather  counter thier oath on turn 1 then try to slow them down on turn 3. by then they have their dudes beating yer head in. 4C Stax has a roughly 58% chance of having trinisphere in play by turn 3. this does not bode well for the B2B player. it seems to be more of a win-more card than a win-now card and I have not been too happy with it so far.

if you want to beat oath, maindeck bouncers and annuls and sideboard guilded drakes. that gives you game Vs Oath.

[j]

if you want to beat oath, maindeck bouncers and annuls and sideboard guilded drakes. that gives you game Vs Oath.

First of all forgive me for commenting on a matchup I have little experience in. Annul might be good if it takes time for them to find the oath. Bouncers, on the other hand, look solid. Neither the bouncers nor the drakes can, however, touch the angels boarded in games 2 and 3.

It would seem that, considering the infamous synergy between daze and wurms,  the only thing you can do against oath in the first 3 turns is
a) get rid of Oath of Druids (md Naturalize || sb Ray of Revelation)
b) resolve a Bouncer (game 1)

Postboard targeted creature removal sucks, right?

[Phantomz]

I have some questions about your build.

2.) are 5 draw spells enough?

I thought 2 Deep Analysis was pretty standard in U/g but looking at your new list you haven't included them. Right now you have plenty of hate against Oath (Waterfront Bouncers & Annul) and those seem to be taking up a lot of slots.

You also don't have MD Null Rods/Energy Flux . Do you think 3 Waterfront Bouncers and 3 Annuls is excessive?

Another off topic question I have is, do you guys play a madness creature on your turn for an extra damage or do you play it as an instant on your opponents turn? I know this question really depends on what your opponent is playing but it would be great if someone could give me a rough idea.

//Edit

I just want to add that Wonder has disappeared from this deck and from the SB.

Thanks.

[theorigamist]

Another off topic question I have is, do you guys play a madness creature on your turn for an extra damage or do you play it as an instant on your opponents turn? I know this question really depends on what your opponent is playing but it would be great if someone could give me a rough idea.

Since the smallest madness creature is Rootwalla, I'll use that for my example:

Scenario 1:
You discard the Rootwalla for 1 extra damage on your turn attacking with a Mongrel.  You do 1 extra damage.

Scenario 2:
You discarded the Rootwalla EOT and now attack with Rootwalla and Mongrel.  You do 1 extra damage, and have the option of doing 2 more.

There are only very specific scenarios where you would rather drop the madness creature on your own turn.  In general, EOT is the way to go.  You also possibly get into counter wars at the end of their turn, and, in general, stuff played during your opponent's turn is preferable to stuff played during your own turn.

[doomhed]

I thought 2 Deep Analysis was pretty standard in U/g but looking at your new list you haven't included them. Right now you have plenty of hate against Oath (Waterfront Bouncers & Annul) and those seem to be taking up a lot of slots.

You also don't have MD Null Rods/Energy Flux . Do you think 3 Waterfront Bouncers and 3 Annuls is excessive?

Another off topic question I have is, do you guys play a madness creature on your turn for an extra damage or do you play it as an instant on your opponents turn? I know this question really depends on what your opponent is playing but it would be great if someone could give me a rough idea.

//Edit
I just want to add that Wonder has disappeared from this deck and from the SB.

Thanks.

The Maindeck annuls are not only against Oath, they are for Dragon, trinistax, 5/3, Belcher, and any deck running crucible. this card single handedly got me to the top 8 at newington, and this is gonna be almost as stax-filled of a metagame.
the Maindeck Bouncers are for any matchup where they can block yer dudes, crap out a platinum angel, Oath/play their own creatures, or kill your guys. this is quite a few matchups. they alos serve as a backup madnesss outlet, beacaue smart players attack your madness outlets first. this gives you 3 more for them to deal with.

The Maindeck null rods may or may not be the at their weakest in history. whether or not they are going to be in the maindeck is up in the air.

Turn 1 it highly depends on the matchup. if it is game 1, but you have scouting to know what the opponant is playing, then you have to play it by ear. most times I honestly play Brainstorm/ancestral on thier turn, either in response ot thier first spell, or at the end of thier first main phase if they go UU up on the first turn.  honestly, I rarely, if ever, pay mana for basking rootwalla. they are much better madnessed out at the end of your opponants turn, to break counter walls. I have done it at the end of theier first main phase many times too, to keep drain at bay.

Edit-
I hate deep analysis in this deck. it is night useless without a madness outlet and costs you too much life. I would rather run carful studies then Deep analysis.