[Deck] Kobolds

[Bibi]

Hello,

This is an unpowered kobold deck. I play this deck since few monthes, and I try to customize it the best I can.

Because I got no moxen, fastbond is very usefull in this deck, when you need mana.

This deck could be slower than a full powered deck, that's why I play 3 duress and 3 Cabal, it's nice to remove cards to slow down your opponent

        3 Polluted Delta
        4 Bayou
        5 Swamp

        1 Lotus Petal
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Sol Ring
        3 Land Grant

        3 Glimpse of Nature
        4 Skullclamp
        1 Necropotence

        4 Crimson Kobolds
        4 Crookshank Kobolds
        4 Elvish Spirit Guide
        4 Kobolds of Kher Keep

        4 Dark Ritual
        1 Fastbond

        1 Reaping the Graves
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Yawgmoth's Will

        2 Tendrils of Agony

        3 Cabal Therapy
        3 Duress

[Kulgan]

Chrome Mox cannot be good in ?
Because ESG is a good mana accelerator but cannot cast a Dark Ritual...a YWin...a Tutor...ect...
Do you don't think that including the named mox can be a good thing ?

[thorme]

Does anyone have the decklist of the Kobold deck that got a top 3 in VA a few weeks ago? On the same SCG forum to which you are referring, Smmenen made mention of this deck, which was piloted by David Allen.

I do.    

I will say this:  Cabal TheRAPEy is awesome, and Tinder Wall is really good in the right build.  As andrewpate points out though, if you run a Tinder Wall build (which I did at the VA tourney) you do need to have some way to fix your mana.  I also ran the full 4 ESGs, and a card which allowed me to change my mana to the color I need.

[Bibi]

Does anyone have the decklist of the Kobold deck that got a top 3 in VA a few weeks ago? On the same SCG forum to which you are referring, Smmenen made mention of this deck, which was piloted by David Allen.

I do.    

I will say this:  Cabal TheRAPEy is awesome, and Tinder Wall is really good in the right build.  As andrewpate points out though, if you run a Tinder Wall build (which I did at the VA tourney) you do need to have some way to fix your mana.  I also ran the full 4 ESGs, and a card which allowed me to change my mana to the color I need.

Can you post it (or in PM) or by mail please ? bibi at bibi.hn.org

Thanks

[andrewpate]

I will say this:  Cabal TheRAPEy is awesome, and Tinder Wall is really good in the right build.  As andrewpate points out though, if you run a Tinder Wall build (which I did at the VA tourney) you do need to have some way to fix your mana.  I also ran the full 4 ESGs, and a card which allowed me to change my mana to the color I need.

I think that you must be getting by on much fewer creatures than I am running.  I guess you are talking about Pentad Prism as the color fixing card (most other filters of this type only go from green mana, such as Orochi Leafcaller), or something along those lines.  I would like to fit cards like this, as well as more copies of Elvish Spirit Guide and even some Tinder Walls.

My guess is that you are focusing on Skullclamp more than I am.  Is this true?  And if so, did you test both ways?

Also, you mention liking Cabal Therapy.  I like it as well--do you recommend maindecking it instead of sb as I have?  I have found that it is fantastic in game 2 against certain decks, but usually bad in game 1 and bad against certain matchups (does nothing against Fish, e.g.).  Thus, I like it better once I know what to swing for on turn 1 since I've seen a game already.  I have found that Duress is usually just as good when trying to eliminate Force of Will while going off on turn 1 or 2, and miles better going second and staring down a first-turn basic Forest or whatever.  Do you disagree?

[Madchemist]

Is someone gonna post the decklist so we can critique?

Duress/therapy combo is good times  

[zimagic]

Okay, so I've been doing a bit more testing:
Kobolds

4 Bayou
1 Gaea's Cradle

1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl

4 Dark Ritual
3 Duress
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Land Grant

1 Demonic Tutor
2 Diabolic Intent
1 Vampiric Tutor

4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Skullclamp
2 Tendrils of Agony

4 Crimson Kobolds
4 Crookshank Kobolds
4 Kobolds of Kher Keep
4 Ornithopter
4 Phyrexian Walker
2 Shield Sphere

Sideboard:
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Scavenger Folk
4 Elvish Scrapper
3 Cabal Therapy

Kobolds is a deck I have been playing since the clamp came out and since Glimpse it's just become a really fun deck. I had a look at your list above and it's very similiar to mine excepting one or two things. I think there's a lot going for your versions but I would make one or two suggestions.

I prefer Cabal Therapy in the main and Duress in the side. This is for the very simple reason that I get to look and maybe grab a card. Then I get to grab a card I know is there using up a resource I have in abundance. I have a fourth in the side with 2 Duress. It works for me though I can see the safety in using Duress MD if you don't know your opponents deck.

I have also cut the moxes by 1 (for reasons of both cost and proxy restrictions!) taking out the pearl, to add a third ESG. The number of times I have been able to go off using first turn ESG to fuel Glimpse.....well, it's a thing of beauty.

I would also like a way to search up the cradle cheaply but have been unable to come up with one.

I also have a copy of Y.Will in the SB. Occasionally I feel the need for a safety net especially going second against LD.

First turn Kobold wins, such things are dreams made of.

[thorme]

My guess is that you are focusing on Skullclamp more than I am.  Is this true?  And if so, did you test both ways?

If by focusing more you mean running the full 4 copies than yes, absolutely.  To be honest I never even considered running less than 4, since a non-glimpse non-clamp hand is nearly an auto-mulligan.

Also, you mention liking Cabal Therapy.  I like it as well--do you recommend maindecking it instead of sb as I have?  I have found that it is fantastic in game 2 against certain decks, but usually bad in game 1 and bad against certain matchups (does nothing against Fish, e.g.).  I have found that Duress is usually just as good when trying to eliminate Force of Will while going off on turn 1 or 2, and miles better going second and staring down a first-turn basic Forest or whatever.  Do you disagree?

I do run it maindeck, and it has been stellar - games 1, 2, and 3.  Against Fish as you say, just name Force and go off (or null rod for that matter).  It certainly doesn't do nothing.  Also, it serves ancillary purposes like letting you sac an Ornithopter with a single clamp out to draw cards.  

Secondly, when my opponent lays turn 1 forest go, I probably wouldn't waste my precious mana with Duress or Therapy either one.  I'd just go off.



Since everyone is so curious about the list, here it is.  Note that I don't claim to have extensive experience with the deck - but I do have some tournament experience and results with it.  I only ran it once, as mostly a test run at a smaller event, but had a good time with it.  Here goes:


12 Kobolds
4 Tinder Wall
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Orochi Leafcaller

4 Skullclamp
4 Glimpse of Nature
2 Tendrils of Agony

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Crop Rotation

4 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Lotus Petal
4 Bayou
3 Llanowar Wastes
2 Gaea's Cradle

SB:
3 Cranial Extraction
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Root Maze
4 Naturalize


Have to agree with zimagic - there is something truly satisfying about winning with Kobolds.  

[Bob The Builder]

This is the first time i see crop rotation in a deck list on this forum.  I was reading it today (for the first time) and on page 2 it hit me as a perfect tutor for gaea's.  I was planning on putting in a post to suggest crop rotation, but am glad to see someone (thorme) came up with it already !!

I didn't do any testing with this deck (yet), so comments on the crop rotation are welcome (I have the feeling andrewpate, and people who agree with him, will just say: seeing a gaea's is great, but tutering it up is just like culling the weak; only worse since it doesn't give you the black mana for tendrills...) but then there is Orochi Leafcaller in this list as well

I also feel that games 2 and 3 are going to be a huge problem if Rule of Law or Arcane Laboratory hit the board so I'd like to see some suggestions to get that problem out of the way...

[andrewpate]

I have now cut the 2 Shield Spheres for the last Skullclamp and another Elvish Spirit Guide, and switched the Duresses over to Cabal Therapies entirely.  The sideboard Therapies will probably become Cranial Extractions, but that's keeping in mind the fact that I am used to facing a lot of Dragon, so that might not always be the right choice (although I see thorme has them, too).

If I were going to add Crop Rotation, it would probably be for a Diabolic Intent, and frankly I'd rather find Glimpse of Nature than Gaea's Cradle.  Sorry, Bob The Builder, but I'm going to have to play to your expectations:  there's just no need for that much mana.  If my further testing with 4xSkullclamp proves to require a lot of extra colorless in order to continue grinding, I could see myself cutting Phyrexian Walkers for Tinder Walls, but I'd do that before I'd add Crop Rotation.

[zimagic]

[edit]
If by focusing more you mean running the full 4 copies [of Skullclamp]than yes, absolutely.  To be honest I never even considered running less than 4, since a non-glimpse non-clamp hand is nearly an auto-mulligan.

[Cabal Therapy] serves ancillary purposes like letting you sac an Ornithopter with a single clamp out to draw cards.  

[snip] Here it is:

12 Kobolds
4 Tinder Wall
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Orochi Leafcaller

I am running the 'thopter/Walker/Sphere package (4/4/2) atm and my biggest problem is that you need more than double 'clamp to gain off them. I can see how Tinder Wall gets around this by allowing you to sacrifice directly, but do you not find that the cc is itself a speed bump? When you are going off, drawing cards and playing moxes, this is not an issue. However isn't the green mana requirement for a creature after you cast Glimpse (hopefully) just a little much during the first 2 turns? This means you must go off with artifact AND land mana (or ESG) in hand or wait until the next turn.

You have increased the land count to compensated but you have also added another 1cc creature to fix the red to green/black. Did you come up against colour fixing problems only because you added the Tinder Walls? It seems like your first fix just required a second fix.

(I probably should mention at this point that these are not meant as criticism, just questions to expand on. Sorry if I'm coming over all heavy an' all!   )

4 Skullclamp
4 Glimpse of Nature
2 Tendrils of Agony

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Crop Rotation

You have only 2 tutors and only 1 into hand. The aspects of Diabolic Intent I like so much are that it's into hand and you get to sac something that 1 'clamp wont kill (something with a 'clamp on it of course!)

Do you find what you need easily enough?

What's you opinion of Y.Will as a "win more" card? Is it really necessary?

4 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Lotus Petal
4 Bayou
3 Llanowar Wastes
2 Gaea's Cradle

No Crypt but that's no real issue. It's strange to be talking about mana clumps with only 9 land but that's what I would read from this. What were your experiences with this?

SB:
3 Cranial Extraction
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Root Maze
4 Naturalize

Have to agree with zimagic - there is something truly satisfying about winning with Kobolds.  

I like Cranial but I feel it's too expensive. Great when you're going off but you don't really need it then except for Stifle maybe.

Great result btw. What were yuo matchups like? And how did you deal with Trinisphere apart from Naturalize?

Zimagic

[thorme]

I am running the 'thopter/Walker/Sphere package (4/4/2) atm and my biggest problem is that you need more than double 'clamp to gain off them. I can see how Tinder Wall gets around this by allowing you to sacrifice directly, but do you not find that the cc is itself a speed bump? When you are going off, drawing cards and playing moxes, this is not an issue. However isn't the green mana requirement for a creature after you cast Glimpse (hopefully) just a little much during the first 2 turns? This means you must go off with artifact AND land mana (or ESG) in hand or wait until the next turn.

The green mana is certainly key, which is why I focus more on Cradles than most (hey, even if it just gives you 1 extra green - that can be the key to winning this turn).  Also, the full compliment of ESG's helps in this regard.  I too started with the Ornithopters in - but in the direction I took my build, they didn't seem to make the cut any more.

You have increased the land count to compensated but you have also added another 1cc creature to fix the red to green/black. Did you come up against colour fixing problems only because you added the Tinder Walls? It seems like your first fix just required a second fix.

(I probably should mention at this point that these are not meant as criticism, just questions to expand on. Sorry if I'm coming over all heavy an' all!   )

No worries dude - I put my list up so we could all work on it - I've been playing this game over a decade, and have never yet built a perfect deck to my knowledge.

First, I want to explain about the Leafcallers, since they are sort of an odd, experimental choice.  Obviously, the Cradle and ESG focus makes them more legit - but they are definitely a finisher card.  If you get on out early, they tend to just be clamp-fodder (and hopefully they draw you a card off Glimpse).  The real reason is so that once you're going off and have a ton of green mana via cradles, ESGs, etc - they let you change however much you need into black.

The Tinder Walls can occasionally bite you when circumstances don't work your way - but they can truly shine too.  Basically, it boils down to this - its a cheap accelerator that also has amazing synergy with Glimpse and Clamp.   I will mention that Tinder Walls were never a "fix" - just a card that can help the deck explode, and I started testing with them from the first.

You have only 2 tutors and only 1 into hand. The aspects of Diabolic Intent I like so much are that it's into hand and you get to sac something that 1 'clamp wont kill (something with a 'clamp on it of course!)

Do you find what you need easily enough?

Well, I've done ok so far w/ finding stuff, but more ways to get the win in hand can't be too bad.  I really want to fit Intent in  (although I don't have your issue of needing ways outside clamp to kill my guys).  I'm considering testing intent over 1 leafcaller, since as I said, the leafcaller is only really necessary once you're going off.

What's you opinion of Y.Will as a "win more" card? Is it really necessary?

My opinion is that it's only a "win more" card when you're going off - and when that's happening, every card is "win more".  In the VA tourney, I got paired against PTW (boo - paried against teammate), and game 1 he had countered a few of my key spells and we both got to topdecking.  I topdecked a tutor, and went for the one card in the deck that would singlehandedly win me the game that turn - Yawg Win.  It doesn't just win more, it also wins you games that no other card can.  It's in my build to stay.

I like Cranial but I feel it's too expensive. Great when you're going off but you don't really need it then except for Stifle maybe.

Actually, I see it as totally unnecessary when you're going off.  The idea behind the cranials is that this deck packs a LOAD of acceleration, and against certain decks (tog, doomsday, etc) it can provide an effortless turn 1 win.  I'll be the first to admit that these were semi-test-slots, but they treated me well enough.

Great result btw. What were yuo matchups like? And how did you deal with Trinisphere apart from Naturalize?

Just a few options:  Therapy, Naturalize, and win before 3Sphere hits.  That's about it.

[yankeedave]

I have been play testing this deck against TPS, Control Tog, Sligh,
Welder control, black control, Stax and Oath. Oath and Stax tend to own me, but the other don't seem too bad,
apart from tog, which is kinda 50/50.

I do find that the deck can stall out, even with aggressive
mulliganing, and can be turn 5 or 6 before it goes off, otherwise,
it tends to be turns 2 or 3.

Can anyone help me with both the
maindeck and the sideboard?

Land:
4 Bayou
2 Gaea's Cradle

Mana:
4 Dark Ritual
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Land Grant
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Chrome Mox
1 Crop Rotation
3 Tinder Wall

Draw:
4 Skull Clamp
4 Glimpse of Nature

Tutor:
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Diabolic Intent
1 Vampiric Tutor

Recursion:
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Creatures:
4 Crookshank Kobolds
4 Crimson Kobolds
4 Kobold's of Kher Keep
4 Ornithopter
4 Phyrexian Walker

Kill:
2 Tendrils of Agony

Sideboard:

3 Duress
3 Naturalise
3 Groundseal
3 Snuff Out
3 Root Maze

This is obviously an unpowered version, as I am completely broke. Hopefully I will get some money later this year to start powering up.

[serracollector]

so currently the cards in question are:

Tinder Wall
ESG
Crop Rotation
Skull Clamp
Wheel of Fortune

IMHO, all of these cards just depend on which "version" of koboldclamp you are running, and if you mana base can support it.  For example:

if you run:

4 x Tinder Wall

you must run:
4 x ESG

no if,ands, or buts.

If you run:
4 x Tinder Wall

you should run:

1 x Wheel of Fortune
4 x Skull Clamp

as you:
1.)  Have the red mana for Wheel, and draw 7's in combo are NEVER bad.
2.)  Tinder Walls WILL die to the clamp, and provide you with 2 more "free" clamps.  No reason NOT to run all 4.

As for crop rotation......it ups your storm count, you're never going to "lose" mana (you can even crop a bayou for a bayou just to thin your deck, get storm count, and still have a black mana left, and this is all the "worst case scenerio") and will probably gain mana by getting your Cradle for  6+ mana.  I even saw one decklist that Sideboarded (and this actually could be a viable SB option, even though it was quite funny) Overrun as an alternate kill.  The look on an opponent's face when they get trampled over by a dozen 3/4 trampling kobolds/thopther/walkers is hilarious.  I digress.  But IMHO, I see NO reason crop rotation should not be played, remember:

*Deck Thinner
*Free Spell
*Possible Mana Booster

What are the drawbacks?

With this all in mind, I would think the optimal decklist would be:

Critters (24)
12 Kobolds
4 thopter
4 Tinder Wall
4 ESG

Draw (10)
4 Glimpse
4 Skull Clamp
1 Wheel
1 Yawgmoth's bargain (win THIS turn vs next with Necro, and with Culling, not so hard to cast)

Tutor (7)
1 DT
1 VT
1 Crop
4 Land Grant

Defense (3)
3 Duress (put Therapy in Side, and jsut Switch game 2, Duress is better game 1)

Kill (2)
2 Tendrils

Mana (14)
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox jet
1 Crypt
1 Petal
4 Bayou
1 Cradle
4 Culling of the Weak

As for the SB, I like the tool box idea of:

xX Xantid Swarm
xX Sac to kill an artifact guys
xX Therapy
and possibly
xX Sex monkey/Viridian Shaman (3 mana is heavy, but gets around chalice for 0 and 1)

ok, my 2 cents, hope it helps.  

P.S.  I also do not have the off color moxen, as even though they up storm count and can be used with clamp, you would much rather have the ESG and Cullings their.  Do not think of it as losing mana, think of it as "correcting" mana.

[Negator13]

Channel looks almost as good here as it does in Belcher, as it gives you a pretty much endless supply of Clamp mana. Might room be made for it?

[zimagic]

With this all in mind, I would think the optimal decklist would be:

Mana (14)
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox jet
1 Crypt
1 Petal
4 Bayou
1 Cradle
4 Culling of the Weak

Why Culling and not Ritual? The creatures you need help to sac are 'self-saccable' (Tinder Walls) and Ritual has no creature requirement.

Also if you are playing Wheel of Fortune, why not include Mox Ruby?

Otherwise the arguments are sound for a Tinder Wall version.

[epeeguy]

I tend to agree.  For the time being, I'd prefer to keep my creatures around to Skullclamp and draw 2 cards, as opposed to getting one more in my pool.  Admitedly, Culling the Weak does make it easier to play Tendrils of Agony, but you shouldn't have a problem generating enough mana to do that anyway.

Anyhow, here is the build I've been testing with:

Main Deck
4 Crimson Kobolds
4 Crookshank Kobolds
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Kobolds of Kher Keep
3 Ornithopter
3 Tinder Wall

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Skullclamp
2 Tendrils of Agony

1 Crop Rotation
1 Death Wish
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
3 Duress
1 Fastbond
3 Land Grant
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Yawgmoth's Will

3 Bayou
1 Black Lotus
4 Dark Ritual
1 Gaea’s Cradle
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby

Sideboard
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Deconstruct
3 Elvish Scrapper
3 Scavenger Folk
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Xantid Swarm

I've really liked a lot of the ideas so far, and had a few thoughts of my own.  A couple of explanations:

Creatures:  Standard compliment of Kobolds and Elvish Spirit Guides.  I'm only running 3 Ornithopters and Tinder Walls, as I think that the Ornithopters are a bit too hard to Skullclamp (requiring 2) and the Tinder Walls end up costing you mana to play that could be used for the other pieces of your deck.

Combo:  Standard engine for the Combo.  I don't really see any reason to change it from what it currently is.

Acceleration/Tutor:  A few comments here.  First, the Wheel of Fortune really is great (I'm glad that others see that too).  It helps you out if you start to slow down from your draws off the Glimpse of Natures and Skullclamps, giving you a fresh start to still use to go off with.  The Will is a good addition, since it allows you to replay creatures that you used Skullclamp on prior to the Will to up your Storm count.  Of course, you have to know to play this when it seems that things are slowing down a bit.  The Fastbond enables me to play out any land I draw, and use that mana for other functions.  It helps, somewhat, from stalling out.  Note: though, it may be that it could be cut to run something else; I'm still deciding.  Land Grant gets the Bayous, in case I draw a decent, but no-land, hand.  Or just increasing the Storm count.  I included Death Wish, since it allows me to get stuff from my sideboard, especially the third Tendrils (though, Wishing for an Overrun would be amusing).

Mana Base:  I agree, I'm focusing on keeping the number of off color Moxes down as well.  I'd like to increase the Storm count with them, but I think you can do it well enough by focusing on other stuff.  I only have 4 lands, which I'm sure seems odd to consider for Fastbond; but it means I have mana for everything I should be able to play.  I'd almost run a 4th Bayou, but for the time being I'm just testing with 3.

Sideboard:  Contains a number of tools against a variety of decks.  Xantid Swarm helps out to play out the Combo.  Deconstruct (which is a really novel idea) takes out Trinisphere, and gives me mana to use for playing out the deck.  Elvish Scrapper and Scavenger Folk help do the same (and get around Chalice of the Void).  Again, the Tendrils is simply a Wish target.

Thoughts?

[Whitdjinn]

In the testing i've done with this deck, I find that more often you're going off assuming that you'll end up with everything you need to finish the job, and that more often its the tendrils that is missing more than anything.  I would much rather have a 2nd diaboloc intent and would easily run this over vampric tutor in almost all cases, the only time i would rather have vampiric is pre-going off as a set up.

[serracollector]

sorry, you are correct.  It should be dark rituals, not cullings, the only reaons I had cullings was to make it easier to cast Yawgmoth's bargain, but after testing, bargain was like will, a "win more" card.  With 4 clamp/4 glimpse/2 tutors/1 wheel, you don't need bargain.  I replaced bargain with the red mox, and honestly people, I think that build is "the best" build you can have atm.  Try it out if you don't beleive me, try it over the other builds posted here and I think you will agree with me, that this is the best one.  For refernece again here is my final build:

Critters (24)
12 Kobolds
4 thopter
4 Tinder Wall
4 ESG

Draw (9)
4 Glimpse
4 Skull Clamp
1 Wheel

Tutor (7)
1 DT
1 VT
1 Crop
4 Land Grant

Defense (3)
3 Duress (put Therapy in Side, and jsut Switch game 2, Duress is better game 1)

Kill (2)
2 Tendrils

Mana (15)
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Crypt
1 Petal
4 Bayou
1 Cradle
4 Dark Ritual
As for the SB, I like the tool box idea of:

xX Xantid Swarm
xX Sac to kill an artifact guys
xX Therapy
and possibly
xX Sex monkey/Viridian Shaman (3 mana is heavy, but gets around chalice for 0 and 1)

[Tristal]

None of the builds posted are even -close- to the best build for this deck.

[someNOOB]

None of the builds posted are even -close- to the best build for this deck.

Not ment as a flame, but perhaps some insight into where you believe an "optimal" deck lies?

[epeeguy]

None of the builds posted are even -close- to the best build for this deck.

Agreed.  The build I use is suboptimal (as I indicated regarding my choice of certain cards), and certainly has consistency issues.  At one point I even tried running a single Blue source, to use Brain Freeze as an alternate win condition.  

However, some card choices have proven to be very workable.  Death Wish has proven to be very helpful in case I can't go off Turn 1, but they lay a Trinisphere on their Turn 1.  This gives me access to my artifact destruction from the sideboard and then let's me set up to go off Turn 3.

Fastbond is about the only thing I'm hesitant on, and I think I'm going to try Channel in its place.  It's an interesting suggestion, and it does allow you to fuel Skullclamp, at the same time preserving your colored mana for your other spells.

What specific thoughts did you have in mind?

[Limbo]

None of the builds posted are even -close- to the best build for this deck.

Not ment as a flame, but perhaps some insight into where you believe an "optimal" deck lies?

Maybe everyone is too focused on having a BG build. I am trying a more "traditional" combo build, and piloted it to a T8 finish in a 61 player tourny look here).

The only match I lost that day was to someone that had the insane lucky "triple FoW in 15 cards" hand twice in a row. I smashed face even though meeting chalices for zero and null rods in multiple matches (pitch-casting 6 moxen and kobolds with chalice for zero in play and then casting ritual --> tendrills for the win owns ). The maindeck I am quite satisfied with, but the SB needs some editing. The seals are there to stay, but the other 11 cards are up for some changes.

[twault]

So uh, Tristal, how about giving away the list to the best build with maybe some reasons why it's better.

I'm not doubting you at all, but I don't like being left in suspense. I think I speak for the others here that want to know what you have in mind for your decklist.

[yankeedave]

As a new builder for this deck, i would be interested in your build.  I have posted on this and other sites, and the ideal build needs to be tweaked for newbs, just like me. (Does the fact I played in the UK Classic  still count as a Newb?)

[Tristal]

Well, the previous GB builds were roughly 25 cards different from my build.

What startles me is that Limbo's is only ten, and it's mostly an insignificant 10.  Did I send you my build at some point, or is this a case of independent coincidence? :)

I really don't want to give up all the tech, because I do feel that this deck has MASSIVE potential when it's not hated out or played against intelligently (which nobody seems to be able to do at this point).

I don't want to imply that my version is 100% the best build, at all.  But I do think 90% of the card choices are correct, and some of them (You don't need 4 Cabal Therapy in certain metagames) depend on what decks you expect.

My sideboard does need some work, I've actually got four open slots in it right now.  The trouble is that it's so hard to sideboard cards out of this deck, you don't really want more than three cards in any given matchup.  Which leads to another problem, because the only cards this deck fears are Force of Will/Stifle and Trinisphere/Sphere of Resistance...

[JamesPr]

I'd like to say that I goldfished numerous times with Limbo's build (after testing the other versions here)  I find it very very consistant, and a strong strong deck.  It's like draw7 but it doesn't require as much skill.  Plus the wills get insane when you count in kobolds clamps dark rituals and storm.  Also Limbo's build is the only build I see here that can win without a Skullclamp, or a Glimpse of Nature.  Still Chalice for 0 really hurts this deck, if people still play Chalice anymore.

[Limbo]

Well, the previous GB builds were roughly 25 cards different from my build.

What startles me is that Limbo's is only ten, and it's mostly an insignificant 10. Did I send you my build at some point, or is this a case of independent coincidence?

This concoction is in its entirety a materialisation of my own imagination. I by no means claim it is the best build. I do believe it is far superior to any BG glimpse build however. Anybody have a suggestion on improving my maindeck? From there we can work on a SB.

when it's not hated out or played against intelligently (which nobody seems to be able to do at this point)

You couldn't be more right. People with chalices play them for 0, which isn't a major pain, as I can still win the draw7 way, and somebody even kept a 4 mox hand with null rod, just to disable my skullclamp. I Long-owned him with a ritual-chain into demonic->will

Still Chalice for 0 really hurts this deck, if people still play Chalice anymore.

I don't mind a chalice for 0 at all. Chalice for 1, trinisphere or null rod do suck however. But that is why I want at least 4 seal of cleansing in the side, as a pre-emptive strike mechanism (sounds a little bit as george dubbaya deckbuilding).

[Tristal]

Chalice for 0 is hard if they do it first turn and you're stuck with no useful mana.  Of course, that's what tech SB options are for. :)  Chalices for either 0 or 1 (not both) are easily overcome if you can manage to go first.  Seal is a nice option, but I think Oxidize would really just be better.

[Limbo]

Oxidize would be another 1 CC solution. Ergo, it sucks vs chalice for one...
Seal can be cast as a precaution, as well as hit enchantments (oath comes to mind, but being able to counter a bloodmoon in advance is nice as well).

Xantid Swarm would be nice to add VS control.