[Deck] Kobolds

[Limbo]

Has anybody tested the deck so that they can critique?

I will do so this weekend when I have some spare time (hopefully)...

[CoolFire_FL]

Hey
i some guy the other day play with genesis chamber in his version of kobols and i thought it was pretty cool considering all myrs he had to sac to the clamp. So i tested the idea and came up with satisfied results. i mean the artifact only cost 2. Has any 1 else tryed this?

[Tash]

Anyone try Cabal Ritual in this deck? It works well in meandeck tendrils...

J/w

[CoolFire_FL]

Hey
i some guy the other day play with genesis chamber in his version of kobols and i thought it was pretty cool considering all myrs he had to sac to the clamp. So i tested the idea and came up with satisfied results. i mean the artifact only cost 2. Has any 1 else tryed this?

[Imsomniac101]

[ quote=CoolFire_FL ] Hey
i some guy the other day play with genesis chamber in his version of kobols and i thought it was pretty cool considering all myrs he had to sac to the clamp. So i tested the idea and came up with satisfied results. i mean the artifact only cost 2. Has any 1 else tryed this? [ /quote ]

I did. And it didn't work out very well. The problem with cards like Genesis Chamber and Quirion Dryad, is that you have to play them BEFORE you play your creature spells. Trying to set up a card before you go off is like wasting two mana and your time.

[epeeguy]

I did. And it didn't work out very well. The problem with cards like Genesis Chamber and Quirion Dryad, is that you have to play them BEFORE you play your creature spells. Trying to set up a card before you go off is like wasting two mana and your time.

Ditto.  And, in all fairness, you can go off just with the Glimpses, Kobolds, Skullclamps and Steelshapers (if you go with that build).  Having a Genesis Chamber in play doesn't really contribute to Glimpse either, since it won't give you cards for creatures coming into play (only creature spells played).  So, that synergy doesn't help you out.

[Koffie]

I have this version now:

Creatures:
2 shield sphere
4 ornithopter
12 kobolds
4 tinder wall
4 phyrexian walker

mana:
4 elvish spirit guide
1 lotus petal
1 mana crypt
4 landgrant
1 bayou
1 tropical island
1 taiga
1 chrome mox

spells:
4 brainstorm
1 windfall
1 wheel of fortune
2 rites of initiation
4 glimpse of nature
4 skullclamp
2 cabal therapy
2 goblin bombardment

its way different from what Ive seen here. All those tendrils versions
This version has more creatures and draws mostly faster i guess.

ill tell you behind some cards the 'why' its in it:

Rites of initiation... thnx to the carddraw with skullclamp & glimpse i draw a LOT of cards. Having this card of 1 red mana makes me win the game often. It can also kill multiple opponents. Thnx to the large amount of creatures i usually have 10 creatures. Discarding my whole hand usually results in over 70+ total damage. With cabal therapy as backup.

Goblin Bombardment, an underestimated card if you ask me! Its synergy with skullclamp and the artifacts with more then 1 toughness is great! It can also be used to kill some nasty goblin welders. I mostly cast it with mana from tinder.

Windfall, Wheel of fortune, sometimes I just need a draw7.
Brainstorm, can be quite usefull, however im thinking on replacing them.

The mana base speaks for itself.
I use mana crypt cuz its free. Also those 3 different duals is cuz i only have those three hehe But they all work fine and 3 is kinda the max.

Matchups that suck for me:
Control! and any deck that runs wastes/strips+cow.

Some usefull things about this deck:
It can destroy nasty creatures and it has more free creatures which can still be used by later.

[Imsomniac101]

Very interesting build Koffie. I really like the way you utilize red (especially the rites of initiation). However by your own admissions the deck isn't really all that fast. I mean the only combo deck that has a problem with waste/strip is Dragon, and even then it can win through Intuition. The reason why we're running a fast combo deck is so that we can out race the hate.

[ quote=Koffie ] It can also kill multiple opponents.[ /quote ]

Does this mean that you play this in casual games?

Although the deck seems rather slow, I would really like to see this deck developed. Also one more thing about using rites of initiation as a win condition, its easier to counter than Tendrils of Agony.

P.S. can somebody tell me how to do this quote thingy, I can't seem to do it.

[Koffie]

Very interesting build Koffie. I really like the way you utilize red (especially the rites of initiation). However by your own admissions the deck isn't really all that fast. I mean the only combo deck that has a problem with waste/strip is Dragon, and even then it can win through Intuition. The reason why we're running a fast combo deck is so that we can out race the hate.

[ quote=Koffie ] It can also kill multiple opponents.[ /quote ]

Does this mean that you play this in casual games?

Although the deck seems rather slow, I would really like to see this deck developed. Also one more thing about using rites of initiation as a win condition, its easier to counter than Tendrils of Agony.

P.S. can somebody tell me how to do this quote thingy, I can't seem to do it.

You can simply click at the 'quote' next the post

I play it sometimes also in casual yes, usually sometimes a player joins at the start just by instance. Rites of initiation is easier to counter yes but cabal therapy usually helps quite well, I could also add in a random Elephant resurgence, which gives you a decent 10/10 or so for 1G. Goblin bombardment usually does his stuff too. The deck quite runs faster then you think. It only has 3 land in it and I usually go off at turn 3 (if not earlier). Besides i play way more free creatures I get more advantage thnx to glimpse and the cabal therapy/goblin bombardment help usefully to sac the biggers creatures like shield sphere

Ive played a few times against some control tendrils deck. The only way he could stopped me was using all his fows en drains. But that was an older build

I was also thinking of:
Zombie Infestation, once you go with the 'synergy' you can discard lots of cards for zombies...
Restless dreams, discard the therapies for example to get some creatures back you sacced and run further off for one black mana

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Has Xantid swarm been tried at all in Kobolds? I know it costs G, but shit, it's house vs. control. Beats, then clamp it and draw 2 cards and go about your business uninterrupted. 1 person has been playing kobolds at local tourneys here, and it seems promising.

-Bob

[epeeguy]

In most of the builds (for example, mine, Tristal's and Limbo's), it has been included for that specific reason.  I'm not certain about Koffie's build though, as he did not include his sideboard.

[LizardCZ]

In my version I run four copies of cabal therapy, which I think is great because it allows you to combo off first turn without the need of attacking, and can be flashbacked using a clamped ornithopter. However, a more slow version would thanks the addition of xantid swarm.

IMO kobolds is nearly as fast as belcher is, it shouldn't run slow like a TPS o dragon build (OMG shit most of your spells cost no mana, combo it RIGHT NOW!!1!11!), so an agressive fast build is better than a slower one.

here is my version:

Mana
4x Gemstone Mine
5x Moxes
1x Black Lotus
1x Lotus Petal
1x Mana Crypt
4x Dark Ritual
3x Culling the Weak

Creatures
12x Kobolds
4x Ornithopter
4x ESG
3x Auriok Steelshaper

Stuff
3x Skullclamp
4x Glimpse of Nature
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Yawgmoth's Bargain
1x Wheel of Fortune
2x Tendrils of Agony
4x Cabal Therapy

I don't have a sideboard (I haven't played in a tournament with it yet).

This deck is freakin' fast but have a lot of crapy hands that must be mulliganed into more crapy hands and so on...

[Koffie]

If you want less chance getting crappy hands i suggest you play 4 skullclamps..

There is also another Card drawing tech which ruins your opponents play also. Could be used in tendrils decks or brainfreeze..
4 chalice of the void , play it for 0
4 multani's presence , all your spells of 0 give now one card and still count to your storm.

I came up with another idea:
Winds of Change - for one red mana you can draw a fresh hand, if your deck stall you can hopefully get some new creatures useful with glimpse..

[Limbo]

I tried Insomniacs build last weekend, and I discovered the following:

Although it can be friggin' fast at times, it is also horribly inconsistent. Mulling to 4 and still drawing nothing useful (you really need a decent 7 card hand, or you are screwed) is no fun at all

I liked the glimpses in the deck, but they only work if you run like 20+ creatures, which is actually the reason of the weakness mentioned above.

Also, Ornithopter/Walker + single clamp is no tech at all, they become useful once you have multiple clamps out, which usually takes too long.

And last but not least, when the deck does go for it T1 / T2, I usually am forced to spend mana to draw more cards to get 4 mana for the tendrills, but the spending of mana prevents me from reachng 4 at the same time.

Btw, why not run the meandeck tendrills tutor instead of vampiric tutor and demonic consultation in this build?

Lizard's list looks nice, might test that when I have the time for it. And it looks more like my personal list, which is nice too

[Imsomniac101]

Although it can be friggin' fast at times, it is also horribly inconsistent. Mulling to 4 and still drawing nothing useful (you really need a decent 7 card hand, or you are screwed) is no fun at all.

yes the deck does have a higher chance of getting a horrible mulligan than other combo decks, but isn't that what makes a combo deck balanced, I mean Meandeck Tendrils doesn't even mulligan that well. In my opinion, my decklist plays alot like belcher and should be played in that manner; I think the reason why you don't really seem to like the BG builds is because of your play-style.

And last but not least, when the deck does go for it T1 / T2, I usually am forced to spend mana to draw more cards to get 4 mana for the tendrills, but the spending of mana prevents me from reachng 4 at the same time.

Btw, why not run the meandeck tendrills tutor instead of vampiric tutor and demonic consultation in this build?

I personally have never had a problem with this. When I pay mana to clamp I will either:
a) draw into more mana sources to fuel clamp
b) draw into a tutor for more mana ( consultation into lotus is a very strong play)
c) draw into more creatures to fuel glimpse and then begin the cycle again with your freshly drawn cards.

Many storm combo players (including myself) agree that vampiric tutor is a weak tutor; I've lost so many games simply because vampiric tutor didn't replace itself. I'm currently testing spoils of the vault. As for replacing demonic consultation, I can only say F*** off (no offense meant to anybody), consultation is the strongest tutor in the deck; yes even stronger than demonic tutor. It can tutor for glimpse/clamp/tendrils/lotus/culling the weak, costs 1 less and an instant.

I really want to add a 3rd cabal therapy in but the only way it would fit was if I played a 61 card deck.

Also a side note; I actually prefer this deck over other storm combo decks simply because if the deck does fizzle out on T1 you can just play a clamp to pick up the slack. Not to mention the reaction of my opponent when he loses to a deck that plays 0/1 creatures.

[Limbo]

Well, if I do lose, I prefer it is because of my opponent, not because I play an inconsistent deck. The advantage of my build is that when the need to mulligan arises, you have a very decent chance of mulling into mana + draw 7 or something, effectively "negating" the mulligan. Most cards in the BG build are better if you have loads of cards in hand, while draw 7 is good regardless of that.

About the "mana-problems": When I did go off T1/T2, about 30-40% of the games I was just struggling to get to 2BB. Sometimes I did get to it, sometimes I didn't. But I kinda disliked this in addition to the mulligans I was already forced to take. Nothing is as annoying as looking at an opening hand, seeing high potential for a T1 / T2 win and then fizzle because you were 1 or B short to cast tendrills after drawing your entire deck...

I would say both consultation and spoils can kill you, as both can remove your win condition. However, spoils starts digging right away, while consultation removes an additional 6. If you find yourself often tutoring for a restricted goody (such as a lotus), both cards can kill you (either by removing it too soon in consultations case, or removing it too late with the spoils, or by removing both tendrills). If you often tutor for a 4-of, I would think spoils is the way to go over consultation, as your chances of removing both tendrills are smaller that way. Must admit I didn't use probability calculations for this, so I might be wrong.

[Imsomniac101]

One of the most important rules in any storm combo deck is keeping BB open for Tendrils; in this deck most of the time you can float just B and get away with it because of Lotus/Culling the Weak/Dark Ritual.

Nothing is as annoying as looking at an opening hand, seeing high potential for a T1 / T2 win and then fizzle because you were 1 or B short to cast tendrills after drawing your entire deck...

I don't see how you can lose if you draw your entire deck  

The reason why I don't like the Draw 7's is because you are actually refilling your opponents hand and your deck really can't afford to be forced to pass the turn. Otherwise your opponent will kill you with his new hand. This problem has been highlighted by some of the premier combo players in Vintage, especially Smemnemm (who designed the Draw7 combo deck).

As for consultation/spoils killing you: like I said before consulting for a restricted card will rarely kill you ( I mean ask Carl Winter about it ), I've only been decked twice by consultation in about 100+ goldfishes (maybe I'm just lucky ). Spoils is significantly riskier than consultation; and although it does tutor for 4 of's better than consultation, consulting for Lotus/Culling the Weak is such a strong play in this deck that it can't be ignored.

[Zherbus]

This thread is a bit over-done. I would like to see the conversation continue in a fresh thread, provided it isn't spammed with horrible lists and repetitive content.