[Discussion] Breaking Ninja of the Deep Hours

[Ripcord728]

Ninja of the Deep Hours - 3U

Creature - Human Ninja  
Ninjutsu 1U (Return an unblocked attacker you control to hand: Put this card into play from your hand tapped and attacking.)
Whenever Ninja of the Deep Hours deals combat damage to a player, you may draw a card.
2/2

***

This card is very breakable, in my opinion.  As long as you have a creature to bounce back to your hand, this is effectively a 2/2 haste, Finkel ability for 2.  So the question becomes - which one-drops are best for this job?  Xantid Swarm is good because once it gets through, the Ninja can't be Fire/Ice's or StP'd, Sandbar Merfolk (don't laugh) is nice because once you bounce it back to your hand, you can cycle it.  There are also lots of good one-drops in red, such as Gorilla Shaman, Goblin Vandal, Grim Lavamancer, Goblin Welder (even only to be used as counter-Welders against Slaver or other Workshop decks.)  But the problem with all of these is that running enough to consistently get a one-drop on turn one will mean that there will be a lot of dead cards later on in the game when you don't particularly want to draw a 1/1.  So how about Skullclamp?  That way, you can play lots of 1/1's and a full playset of Ninja of the Deep Hours and clamps for crazy card advantage.

What to do with all these cards we're drawing?  Well, since there's no extra mana lying around, because of all the Ninjituing, Skullclamping, etc, 4 Force of Will is necessary, and in addition, I'm thinking a couple of Misdirection or Disrupting Shoal would be good.

Disrupting Shoal - UUX

Instead of paying Disrupting Shoal's mana cost, you may remove a blue card in your hand with converted mana cost equal to X.
Counter target spell if it's converted mana cost equals X.

In order for Disrupting Shoal to work, the deck will need to run a wide variety of different blue spells of different costs.  Especially three-drops, since those are the most powerful spells in Vintage (Thirst for Knowledge, Wheel of Fortune, Tinker, Yawgmoth's Will, Windfall, Timetwister, as well as Cunning Wish, Intuition, etc.)  So, the options for maindeck blue three-drops are:

Cunning Wish
Ophidian (not very helpful next to Ninja of the Deep Hours)
Back to Basics (still good in the metagame?)
Energy Flux (maindeck?)
Trinket Mage (for Skullclamp or possibly maindeck Engineered Explosives with splash, Tormod's Crypt, splash of red for Pyrite Spellbomb, Chalice of the Void)
Tinker (along with Darksteel Collossus or Memory Jar)
Thirst for Knowledge (with 5 Moxen, Black Lotus, 4 Skullclamp and possibly more options for discard)

Thoughts?

[VGB]

It might work well in Tog (which means you have to run 3-4 Tog, though).

You probably want to edit your card description to include the Ninjutsu cost ().

[Ripcord728]

Thanks, I just did.  But I don't see how this could work in Tog... It would become slower than Ophidian if you needed to bounce back a three-drop, when the point is to make it faster.

[VGB]

I'm just saying, Tog is rarely blocked (except by maybe Dreadnaughts and Collossi and Angels), and Tog likes to draw cards.  It gives you an opportunity to psyche your opponent, who will never know when you might be attacking for the deathblow or just trying to sneak Ninja-Ophie into play.

[Jacob Orlove]

If you want synergy, combine this card with cloud of faeries and standstill. You can even bounce man-lands to get it out if you have to.

In other words, this ninja is almost painfully good in fish. Not that we should expect a comeback, or anything.

[M]

From a strictly theoretical viewpoint, why is this good?

You get a 2/2 Thieving Magpie, without evasion (except on the turn it comes into play). And the cost is 1U, plus what you used to get an unblocked creature in the first place (the unblocked creature doesn't even get to deal its damage on the turn you Ninjutsu it to hand), plus what you now have to use to get that same creature back into play again. Without some extra synergy added (e.g. Thalakos Seer, or Standstill) this might not even be worth it.

[virtual]

Cloud of Faeries cycles as well, so that makes turn 2, cloud, standstill.  Turn 3, ninja, Turn x cycle cloud, pretty sweet.  Conditional, but sweet.  

This falls back on the card quantity/card quality of fish however.  That last cycle of cloud of faeries won't be getting you a yawg, etc (nothing game breaking), so maybe it shouldn't be a consideration whatsoever.  The ninja does draw cards though, so he seems to still fall into the plan.

-Virtual

[Ripcord728]

Ninja of Deep Hours doesn't need evasion - there are hardly any creatures in Vintage.  For the few that exist, the deck may require a splash of white or red for removal, but the point is that Ninja will consistently get through unless it is killed by spot removal, which is why the deck needs some form of free countermagic to save it.

The advantage of Ninja is that it comes out turn two and starts the card advantage racking up immediately.  Thieving Magpie costs FOUR, and does not start gaining card until turn five, theoretically, or maybe turn four if it is powered out early with a Mox.  Ninja already attacks on turn two, which is why I don't see why the best card for it is Cloud of Faeries (or Thakalos Seer)... Without having to count on a Mox, Sandbar Merfolk (or any other one-drop that can be sacrificed later for Skullclamp) with Ninja is a turn quicker.  Manlands aren't great for the Ninja, because paying one for a Mishra's Factory, attacking with said Factory, and paying another two for the Ninjutsu adds up to four, which is the cost of the Ninja on its own.

Still, however, the manlands are good with Standstill, and Standstill is great with the Ninjutsu.  In fact, any one-drop on turn one followed by Standstill OR Ninja of the Deep Hours is a pretty strong opening.  Also, a splash of black for bigger Ninjas might not be bad.  For instance, with a Standstill out, cards in hand tend to build up.  Having a few Okiba-Gang Shinobi's in the deck would force the opponent  to break Standstill.

Okiba-Gang Shinobi - 3BB?
Creature - Rat Ninja
Ninjutsu - 2B?
When Okiba-Gang Shinobi deals combat damage to a player, that player discards two cards from his or her hand.
3/2

Just an idea.

[Raven Fire]

So the question becomes - which one-drops are best for this job?

Flying Men and, to a lesser extent, Manta Riders come to mind as they are both on color and fly.

[Ripcord728]

For the last time, evasion is not important, since there aren't creatures around to block.  Something with a useful ability is much better, such as Gorilla Shaman, Grim Lavamancer, Goblin Welder, Goblin Vandal, Elvish Scrapper, Elvish Lyrist, etc.

[serracollector]

Why does it even have to be one drops? this is t1 after all, moxen, dark ritual, elvish spirit guide, etc. etc.  Why not good creatures with CIP abilities?  Even some of the "lesser" ones are still good with this ninja, say Ravenous Rats (you chuck I draw), Man-O-War (nice collusus you oathed up), Bone Shredder (true 5 mana total but to kill a welder and draw an card with buyback essentially).  And the first turn Cloud of Fairies/Ninja is nice.    Well, I am sure there are planty of others depending on how you want to splash (Vandals, Sex Monkey, Ghitu Slinger, FTK, etc.)  but thats my 2 cents.

Serracollector

[yespuhyren]

I would personally play this in fish, as it adds to card advantage and often you'll just return a cloud of faeries or something cheap, though the cloud is best

[Razvan]

It's the CIP abilities which can garner more attention now. Although I cannot think of many (there are some) CIP creatures in this game, that you want to return over and over (Duplicant's reoccurence is with Welder), it could be useful.

I am afraid that ninja's are more cool than actually useful in T1. Playable, maybe. Useful, hopefully, but fading. Cool. Well, duh.

[Ripcord728]

Wasting something like Elvish Spirit Guide or Dark Ritual casting creature #1 is bad because of the following reasons:

1) The creature will just need to be recast.
2) The object is to gain card advantage, not lose it.
3) Dark Ritual/ESG becomes a dead card later, since its only function would be to power out a quick Bone Shredder/Uktabi Orangutan, so they should not be in the deck to begin with.
4) If you don't draw the acceleration, you fall behind a turn.
5) Bone Shredder or Uktabi Orangutan isn't even good on turn one.  What are you going to destroy?

You do not need something with a flash, all you need is something that can bounce back.  Honestly, Kobolds would be fine for this job, as they can be Skullclamped to death and they would leave a free mana open on turn one.  However, I think that a creature with a use (Welder, Shaman, etc) would be better since it is not dead later on in the game without a Skullclamp.  Sandbar Merfolk has some merit because it can be cycled or pitched to Force of Will.

[Tetre]

I can see it working in Madness:

Attack with Flying Moeba/Mongrel/Root, exchange Root for Ninja of the Deep Hours, discard root to Mongrel, tap blue, curiosity the Ninja of the Deep Hours, GO

I see this as potential HUGE card advantage

Tetre

[Thug]

This could even be used is something like Kobolds since this card is uncounterble if brought into play with Ninjutsu. Bouncing 0cc permanents never hurts, (you can use them for Glimpse/Storm again) and getting an Ophidian that actually deals damage is pretty good too.

It's also seems a decent adition to the W/U fish deck that tend to float around.

Building a deck around this card is pretty hard though, since it is not a card that defines an archetype, it is more a card that can be inserted in different archetypes as long as they pass some requirement rules.

Koen

[MrZuccinniHead]

i was going to post this but thug beat me too it.  Yes the Ninja seems better in a fish deck that packs creature hate to clear the path, I.E. U/W fish with MD StoP.  And i like the discard one making the opponent have to break the standstill.  Fish used to rely on manlands as standstill threats, but the ninjas could be a nice replacement.

[Ripcord728]

You know what occurs to me?  With 5 Moxen, 4 Skullclamp and 4 Standstill, the 0/1 Kobolds could be a great fit for this deck.  That way, instead of needing to waste a turn casting a 1/1 that will only end up getting bounced back anyway, turn one can be spent playing a Kobold + Skullclamp, or with a Mox, Kobold + Skullclamp and equip, or Kobold + Standstill (which is a particularly strong play because it allows for Ninjutsu tricks later on).  Dumping a Kobold into play to sacrifice to Skullclamp is also easier than dumping in a one-drop, a Cloud of Faries, a Faerie Conclave, etc.

[rozetta]

You know what occurs to me?  With 5 Moxen, 4 Skullclamp and 4 Standstill, the 0/1 Kobolds could be a great fit for this deck.  That way, instead of needing to waste a turn casting a 1/1 that will only end up getting bounced back anyway, turn one can be spent playing a Kobold + Skullclamp, or with a Mox, Kobold + Skullclamp and equip, or Kobold + Standstill (which is a particularly strong play because it allows for Ninjutsu tricks later on).  Dumping a Kobold into play to sacrifice to Skullclamp is also easier than dumping in a one-drop, a Cloud of Faries, a Faerie Conclave, etc.

Yet another use for Aether Vial, too.

[Freelancer]

One of the interesting things is that it's essentially a uncountarble cheaper phid (with a drawback) and it still deals 2 damage...I know 1 thing i'm going to test this out in madness as a 2-off instead off curiosity would be quite sweet to bump my rootwalla draw a card than eot replay rootwalla and all off that with U untapped for a logic...It sure will make some interesting situations, and might actually be good in a weird version off kobold clamp...

[Covetous]

I think that this card's only home will be in a fish variant--no other decks would bother using a 2/2 that costs 4 unless you are already attacking with an unblocked creature.  The existing synergy with cloud of faeries, for example, only makes this a better fit for Fish.  The point of turn 1 flying things is that it allows this guy to hit turn 2 and draw you a card.  And, while there are fewer creatures in vintage than standard, people can still block so flying is better than not flying.  I agree that having this in a deck with removal is probably better than in a deck without, but all you really need is evasion creatures.  So, any of the existing fish variants would work fine.  But, unless the metagame changes or fish adapts substantially, I think the question is moot.  It's like saying that Night's Whisper is great in suicide black.

[Ripcord728]

So here's what I've come up with:

4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
5 Plains
1 Tundra
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring

4 Savannah Lions
4 Icatian Javelineers
4 Meddling Mage
4 Trinket Mage
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours

4 Skullclamp
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Annul

This is basically an aggro deck that doesn't burn out.  Lots of card advantage to get out some more creatures if you're running low.  I've been playing this deck for a while, now, and I find that the one-drops are better than Kobolds because, while they are generally sacrificed to Skullclamp, they are often needed to finish the job once card advantage and board control is established.

Skullclamp is only half of it, though.  Ninja of the Deep Hours comes out quickly all the time, is uncounterable, can allow you to name a different card under Meddling Mage, fetch another card with Trinket Mage, shoot another Welder with Javelineer, etc.  And once the Ninja is out, it racks up card advantage like mad.  Hard-casting it for four isn't too shabby either, by the way, with a full set of Moxes and Sol Ring.    

With all this card advantage, free spells are great.  Abolish would be nice, but it turns out that Seal of Cleansing and Annul are just better - Annul to stop things like Sundering Titan, Memory Jar, Mindslaver, and Seal of Cleansing so that you can play it early and then feel free to tap out.  For a while I tried Disrupting Shoal, but it just doesn't work.  It forced me to play either Back to Basics or Cunning Wish, because the top spells in Vintage have converted cost of three, and in today's Metagame, Back to Basics has lost efficiency, and Cunning Wish is far too slow to deal with threats like Goblin Welder, Trinisphere, etc.  

Trinket Mage is great.  Grabs a Mox or Black Lotus every once in a while, but obviously there for Skullclamp.  However, their 4x presence in the maindeck allows for great sideboard targets, namely Chalice of the Void (for zero against Kobold decks), Tormod's Crypt (for lots of different decks), and Aether Spellbomb (against Oath).

Thoughts on the sideboard?

[CSeraph]

I need to remove a blue card? No shit you idiot I had a solid arguement. Just run 1 and 2 casting cost blue spells you moron. I hate these Moderators that think they have some actual power aside from there pathetic lives. Whoever deleted my post I want a logical explanation for.  

You know what I hate? Poor spelling and incomplete sentences. Good luck getting banned.

Rip, interesting list, just a few points that came to mind -

Engineered explosives as a 1-of? Eliminating your own creatures isn't tech, but it is hate that is actually fetchable with trinket mage, and with all those moxen you should be able to set it to 3 reasonably often.

Daze? For an aggro deck this list is *slow* - seems like some tempo counters could be solid.

[Covetous]

As I suggested earlier, a more Fish-based deck would probably work better:
4 Flying Men
4 Meddling Mage
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Ninja of Ownage
4 Standstill
4 Curiosity
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Force of Will
3 Seal of Cleansing / Daze / Annul
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Island
1 Plains

The synergy of Ninjutsu with Standstill is good.  Flying Men is good because it's blue and comes down turn 1.  I'm not sure about the Seal/Annul/Daze question, and it might be possible to cut a land or the pearl to run 2 seal + 2 daze.  I wouldn't recommend using black lotus or skullclamp because at the very least you would run Null Rod in your SB.

[Ripcord728]

I tried Standstill with Ninja of the Deep Hours, but believe me, it doesn't work.  The end result is that you have more cards in your hand than you know what to do with, and your opponent cracks Standstill at the end of your turn forcing you to discard from 12 down to 7.  Curiosity is really bad with Ninja as well, because the enchantment dies when a creature is bounced back.  Skullclamp is honestly better than both.  Is Null Rod a good enough hoser to be worth sacrificing that for it?  Also, you don't have enough one-drops for the Ninja to come out consistently on turn two.

CSeraph: Daze would be nice, but what would you take out for it?  Right now, if I had to cut a card or two, it would be a Seal of Cleansing/Annul and a Meddling Mage.  I suppose a Skullclamp could come out if needed.  But the bottom line is that I think those cards would be better for the deck than Daze.  Also, what does Engineered Explosives really deal with?  One Goblin Welder?  A Trinisphere?  Those are things I need to deal with, but Engineered Explosives is too slow for (hence all the maindeck removal).  I'm finding that most decks just aren't using two many permanents nowadays, save for Workshop decks in which the permanents have converted costs of 4-8.  The only deck I can think of EE hurting is that new deck with the Ankh of Mishra and Pyrostatic Pillar.

[M.Solymossy]

Um...Chief?   I think you ment Mishra's Factory.  

Anyways.   I can't see any way that this is better than ophidian.  In fish maybe, but fish in general is a horrible deck.

[Freelancer]

This creature is truly horrible in fish...fish is at it's heart a tempo deck, and this creature sacrifices tempo for more cards. Wich is perfect for a control deck, but control decks don't run enough creature to make it worthwhile...in the meantime there's phid/magpie competing with it, and both are better than this thing...IMHO it has practicly no uses in vintage, maybe some fun deck might be able to use ninja's...

[Diakonov]

@ Freelancer: I don't really see how you lose any tempo.  In fact you definitely gain tempo.  When you swing with your Flying Men you are upgrading them to a creature with double the power, AND which already has Curiosity on it.  Since you can simply replay your guy, it doesn't bother your tempo at all while IMMEDIATELY providing card advantage.  Not to mention he is uncounterable and has nasty synergies with Standstill and Meddling Mage.

I tried Standstill with Ninja of the Deep Hours, but believe me, it doesn't work.  The end result is that you have more cards in your hand than you know what to do with, and your opponent cracks Standstill at the end of your turn forcing you to discard from 12 down to 7.  Curiosity is really bad with Ninja as well, because the enchantment dies when a creature is bounced back.  Skullclamp is honestly better than both.  Is Null Rod a good enough hoser to be worth sacrificing that for it?  Also, you don't have enough one-drops for the Ninja to come out consistently on turn two.

If I remember correctly, the whole point to Fish was to obtain an obscene amount of card advantage.  The high number of pitch spells was supposed to make this worthwhile (which will be even better with Shoal).  The only issue I recall when I played Fish was that I always wished I had a slightly stronger clock.  I think that the ninja is perfect for Fish, even if it only ends up as a two-of for situational reasons.

[Revvik]

I find it pretty funny that someone actually said "more cards in hand than you know what to do with."

That translates to winning, because then your hand, even if forced to discard, is composed of better card selection.

Also, I think I remember there being another Ninjitsu creature that would be pretty effective here:

CARDNAME  -  2U

Whenever <this> deals combat damage to a player, you may return target creature to owner's hand (or something along these lines)
Ninjitsu - U

1/1

[Covetous]

Fish IS about drawing lots of cards, because in general, the card quality is low.  If you don't draw lots of cards, you will lose because card-for-card, your deck is crap.  So, drawing a bunch of cards using standstill + ninja is a good thing.  Maybe white/blue fish isn't the best place for the ninja, but I wanted to give an example.  He also might not need to be in the deck as a 4-of, but I think it's worth a try.  Using him w/ cloud of faeries is quite good.  He can also be amusing with Meddling Mage if you change your mind mid-game.  Flying Men might not normally be as good as Spiketail, but it's presence as a decent 1-drop gives it the edge with Ninja.

Cutting curiosity if you run Ninja of the Deep Hours may be viable, but I still think it's a powerful draw engine in Fish.  The problem with the Ninja is that he doesn't have evasion, so you can't guarantee him as a draw engine like you can (relatively) with one of your flying dudes.