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Author Topic: [Deck] Edit: Mono Blue w/ varied CC for Shoals  (Read 8632 times)
Covetous
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« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2005, 08:17:02 am »

I feel as though the strength of Mono-U is very proportional to the strength of Back to Basics.  When B2B is a huge bomb against your opponent, mono-U is s great deck.  But, when B2B is a minor annoyance for your opponent, then mono-U is weaker.  Right now, B2B is more on the level of minor annoyance vs. most decks, making mono-U weaker than it would be in a metagame of, say, 4cc with 0-1 basics.  As has been pointed out, most decks currently sport a sufficient number of basic lands to make B2B less than crippling, due to fear of CruciWaste.  

My point is this--while it would seem that B2B might in fact be the weakest link right now (i.e. possibly to cut for Shoals), does this not in fact suggest that mono-U itself might not be the right choice for the metagame?  I guess that 15-17 counterspells will probably always be strong, but if B2B is just so-so, then mono-U will also probably be only so-so.  

On a side note, I feel that you need to run brainstorm to run tinker/colossus, but brainstorm isn't good in this deck.  Thus, IMHO, Tinker/Colossus is not the right win condition for this deck.  Has anyone tried MD (Razormane) Masticore in this deck as a win condition?  It has the same CMC as a Morphling, has the same power, has first strike and can kill things.  Its vulnerability to artifact hate makes it less than optimal as the only kill condition, but maybe you would run a combination of morphling and razormane, especially if you decide to actually run Tinker.
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« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2005, 02:11:51 pm »

Yes, Prohibit is the bee's knees.

Quote
Disrupting Shoal has a CMC of 2 when it is not on the stack.


Right, I forgot to put it under the spells you can remove to Shoal as 2 CC. That gives even more options at the 2 slot.

Quote
BtB is really only necessary for Workshops and Bazaars, but there the full complement of Strips might be sufficient if backed up by stronger defensive measures (and maybe Crucible, which is otoh even more vulnerable).


In a lot of matchups you do end up siding out the B2B, but for the most part its still strong against Workshop stuff, the occasional Bazarr, etc. Even when you toss one down that shuts off two of their lands, you get a huge boost in tempo.

Quote

In short, while the inclusion of Shoals to Mono-U makes a lot of sense, the slots for it are open for debate - for me, it comes down to Chalice vs. BtB.


It took me a while to come to the same conclusion, and when you consider that Chalice:
-Isn't Blue to ditch to Shoals
-Keeps B2B out of the deck, leaving only Ophidian for 3 CC Shoal removal
-Locks you out of a certain casting cost (usually 1), keeping you from playing varied costing stuff to ditch to Shoal

It became apparent that B2B was the right choice, at least for now.

Quote
My point is this--while it would seem that B2B might in fact be the weakest link right now (i.e. possibly to cut for Shoals)


I think fundamentally speaking that if you are running Shoal, you have to run 4 Ophid/3 Back to Basics to get the most out of it. I can see not running B2B at all, but not cutting it for Disrupting Shoal.

Quote
On a side note, I feel that you need to run brainstorm to run tinker/colossus, but brainstorm isn't good in this deck. Thus, IMHO, Tinker/Colossus is not the right win condition for this deck. Has anyone tried MD (Razormane) Masticore in this deck as a win condition? It has the same CMC as a Morphling, has the same power, has first strike and can kill things. Its vulnerability to artifact hate makes it less than optimal as the only kill condition, but maybe you would run a combination of morphling and razormane, especially if you decide to actually run Tinker.


First, I find Brainstorm to be very, very strong with the Fetch setup. It lets you keep a strong one land hand, lets you put away useless stuff lategame like B2B, and has random utility like hiding from a Duress. When you factor in the necessity of a 1 CC spell for the Shoal, it becomes a necessity.

Next, Tinker Colossus over Morphling x2 seems way too risky. If the Tinker doesn't resolve you automatically lose, if you draw the Colossus you also have to resolve a Brainstorm, etc. etc.

While Razormane Masticore has the same converted mana cost and some other cool abilities, Morphling is in the deck for a reason. It seems like for quite some time Morphling has gone down in the eyes of almost everyone and doesn't seem like what it once was. However, in lots of testing with this deck, Morphling has proven to still be Superman. The sheer fact that Morphling can make itself untargetable makes it more valuable than Masticore. Since you're playing a deck that only has a little space for a victory condition , you have to be able to protect the hell out of it, and Morphling can do that. For the 2 slots devoted to a win condition, I can't think of anything other than Morphling giving you more bang for the buck.
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PemsAura
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« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2005, 03:48:01 pm »

is it just me or did you leave the shoals out of your mono u shoals decklist?
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« Reply #33 on: February 03, 2005, 03:58:33 pm »

If you run Chalice along with Shoal, dropping the Chalice @ 1 allows you to focus on using mostly 2-3 mana spells to pitch to Shoal. Think of it this way: Chalice will stop 1 mana spells, Shoal stops anything else.

The arguement that Chalice keeps you from having 1 mana spells to pitch to Shoal makes no sense, because you'll never play Shoal for 1 if there's a Chalice out...
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« Reply #34 on: February 03, 2005, 09:33:11 pm »

I did some testing with MonoU w/ Shoals. (My list and such is posted there)
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« Reply #35 on: February 03, 2005, 10:58:09 pm »

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is it just me or did you leave the shoals out of your mono u shoals decklist?


Its just you. Look under "The Rest."

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If you run Chalice along with Shoal, dropping the Chalice @ 1 allows you to focus on using mostly 2-3 mana spells to pitch to Shoal. Think of it this way: Chalice will stop 1 mana spells, Shoal stops anything else.

The arguement that Chalice keeps you from having 1 mana spells to pitch to Shoal makes no sense, because you'll never play Shoal for 1 if there's a Chalice out...


I'm not sure you understand what the point of Shoal is. It is more for "counter a first turn Welder" than "run a bunch of varied CC stuff to have more FoW." If you run Chalice and plan on frequently setting it at 1, you would be foolish to run multiple 1 CC spells yourself since they would be dead. This is not even taking into account that Chalice itself can't be ditched to Shoal, etc.

I'm not quite sure what your point is, perhaps you're going a different direction with the deck.

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I did some testing with MonoU w/ Shoals. (My list and such is posted there)


Its interesting, but thats a completely different build/direction for the deck.
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PemsAura
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« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2005, 09:29:03 am »

The Rest:
2 Morphling
3 Back to Basics
4 Chalice of the Void

Uh, I don't think so considering the small fact that it's either not there or invisible.
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« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2005, 11:53:10 am »

You might consider running Damping Matrix in the sideboard, it is really strong against slaver.  Plus, it can be tinkered up if they get an active Welder through your counter wall.
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« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2005, 02:09:05 pm »

PemsAura: Are you joking?

//The Rest
4 Force of Will
3 Disrupting Shoal
1 Misdirection
1 Fact or Fiction

2 Morphling

Thats what I see.

forcefieldyou: Matrix is cool but it makes Morphling bad.
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« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2005, 03:36:28 am »

In your first decklist there is no disrupting shoal to be found...I don't know where you are looking but I can't ind it...Wink

IMHO if you want to play shoal you can't play chalice of the void simply because it cuts you out off the 1 mana slot...wich makes shoal comsiderably weaker (in here it's like force of will 5-7 so you want to counter there first thread with shoal)...
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« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2005, 01:26:55 am »

Quote from: Covetous
I guess that 15-17 counterspells will probably always be strong, but if B2B is just so-so, then mono-U will also probably be only so-so.

... unless the higher number of free counterspells makes up for that. Thus may be the virtue of the Shoal: It pushes Mono-U a bit further from a conditional pro-active deck (which Btb and Chalice indicate) to a strong reactive deck that can virtually counter everything at any time.
We know that these concepts have not consistently worked in the past, but perhaps the time may have come again for something like it to work. Many decks rely on big, single threats. If the aggro-matchup can be made winnable (Powder Kegs?), I see Shoal Mono-U as a contender.

On a side note, has anyone tried Keiga, the Tide Star as win condition yet? It sure costs 5U, but it beats opposing Morphlings and if you get it vs Oath, it can totally screw them. It's a bit like a totally over-inflated Gilded Drake that beats hard. Also, it whips the brains out of Colossus and kills every single aggro deck. It is more vulnerable to removal than Morphling, but the increased amount of counterspells thanks to Shoals should cover that area. Seeing as Morphling is usually played with six free mana anyway, it makes not that much of a difference -- and I would declare Keiga the currently slightly better card.

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« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2005, 01:43:23 pm »

I would agree more with the decklist that cuts CotV and runs 1cc cards to go along with Disrupting Shoal. However, I would not run Brainstorm as the 1cc card. I would run Annul.

I was watching my friend play a T1 tournament with his Landstill deck and a few things were apparent:

1. There are plenty of workshop decks.
2. Annul stop most of that. (provided no 1st turn 3sphere)
3. Nevinyrral's Disk is a house against said decks. Being 4 mana (well above 3sphere's power) it wrecks the Workshop player.

I fully understand that Annul does nothing against Welders and card drawing, but in a deck with 7 free counters, and 8 regular ones I think that running 2 Annul and 1-2 Stifle isn't such a bad move in a Workshop-heavy metagame.

Too bad Ophidian blows up with the Disk, otherwise Disk would get auto-inclusion in my build.
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