[Discussion] Scouting/Shuffle Peeking/Ethics

[virtual]

With the cut to top 8 I am ranked sixth and face off against [name]. I scramble to find out what he is playing so I don’t have blind meddling mages. One of my teammates informs me he is playing ...

After my first round match was over, I wandered around taking a peek at what decks were being played.

While shuffling, my opponent revealed a card on the bottom of his deck, thereby tipping me off to what he was playing

While playing, I stared at the cards my opponent was shuffling, hoping to get a peek of what he was playing

In the Top 8, my teammate and I waited to see which deck went onto the next round won in order to give our team the better matchup

Before the tournament starts, a small round of scouting helps me "optiMISE" my sideboard

((Some of the quotes may have been invented by me as examples of what one might hear))

(I give no implication that anyone who said the above quotes was necessarily wrong, so please don't misconstrue this thread... it is for discussion not accusation)

The top quote which can be found in a tournament report in the Open Forum, perked my interest in raising a thread about the issue of "ethical" play.

I think we can all agree that cheating is bad, however, the line of what consists of cheating could easily be blurred, and the above scenarios may or may not be legal, and may or may not depend on context.

I raise this topic to get some opinions/discussion going about what is ethical and legal in the form of scouting.    I think that all of the above scenarios have occured at tournaments that we have all been to, and we may have been on either side of the events.  Given that, what is the line where scouting/game resignations/etc falls over into unethical play.... if any.

-Virtual

[jpmeyer]

Scouting itself really isn't a problem, and in fact at premier events, everyone in the T8 of a Constructed tourney gets the decklists of everyone in the T8.

Also, if you ever see a card in your opponent's deck while shuffling, you should immediately call a judge to try to keep everything kosher.

[Machinus]

There is a definite line between being competitive and intelligent about guessing your opponent's next moves (like what deck they are playing), and being shameless about finding out what is in their deck. This also includes the kind of information that you give other people. An example that really bothered me from a tournament I went to a couple of weeks ago:

Before the tournament, I met up with a few friends that I have seen at other tournaments, and talked to them about some magic stuff and borrowed some cards. With them there was someone I had never met before, but was friends with them, and was also entering the tournament. So before the tournament I wanted to be polite and get to know the person, and since it was a really small tournament, I decided I would just ask what they were playing, since I was interested to know, and already knew what the others were playing. I was pretty open about what I had, since these were friends of mine and I would have split with or scooped to any of them if it would help us out. The person said they were playing doomsday, and I thought that was interesting so I asked a couple of questions about it, nothing major, and didn't think much about it again until round 3, when we were paired up.

It turns out, they weren't playing doomsday. Not even close. They were playing Oath. This really bothered me. I wouldn't go around asking people what they were playing so that I could have an advantage over them in the tournament, especially since I was open about my deck - and I would most definitely never explicitly lie about the contents of my deck, especially to someone I would probably see again at a tournament. I condone playing something else before the tournament, or not showing anything at all, or just not telling someone what you are playing if you don't want to. But just straight out lying? It really bothered me, and not because it had any effect on the tournament - I still beat this person even though I thought they were playing something else. But it is something I hate to see happen.

All that aside, it is important to get a feel for what the field is playing. By the time a big tournament gets to the top 8, I think everyone knows what everyone else is playing, and those are when the good games happen. Metagaming is an integral part of winning in this format (finally!), and you can just ask Meandeck about this, because they have won a lot of power by doing it properly. But we all know that magic is the most fun when we are honorable and polite to our opponents, and they are the same way to us. A smart player will be able to deduce a great deal of information from what cards a player plays, and there are two games in the match where we can use the information we have collected to hedge our decks.

There is absolutely no room, and no reason, for dishonest play in our format.

[Komatteru]

I concur that lying about what you're playing is shady.  If you don't want to say, then it's not difficult to say "I don't want to say anything about it," and let the other person guess at it.  Granted everytime I've done this, whoever asked me has always been able to guess it (since combo decks are limited in number, it's usually easy to guess what I'm playing, but that's just me).  I don't see anything wrong with not wanting to tell someone or not revealing what you're playing before the tournament.  There is a little bit of advantage (but not very much really) in knowing what your opponent is playing ahead of time, and holding onto that advantage is something that's important to some people.  I also see nothing wrong with playing something else against a friend before the tournament.  Playing a different deck allows your friend to get one more test in on a certain matchup and also tells you something about that different deck.  If someone walks by and assumes that's what you're playing, it's his fault for being naive.

At a recent GP Trial, my opponent was significantly taller than me (I'm only like 5'9"), and I was holding my cards at a slightly recessed angle, and he was able to get a peek at my hand throughout the match.  After the match, he admitted this to me, as well as that when I drew a card, he was able to catch the bottom card in my hand.  He also mentioned that he has used his height to get a look at opponent's hands before ("I'm taller so I can often just look over").  This is where the line is blurred.  I was being a bit careless, but he was using his height to gain an advantage over me by exploiting something that I didn't pick up on.  Is that ethical?  Maybe, maybe not.  I don't think he has a duty to tell me that he can see my hand (but it would certainly be honorable of him to do so), but I don't think it's proper for him to maximize the effort to see my hand (if he catches a glimpse, that's one thing, but it's a bit dishonest to try to see).

One thing about scouting that is a bit unfair is that it rewards players who get done with their matches early, which is mostly a luck thing.  If my opponent mulls to 4 in game 1 and gets mana screwed game 2, I win my match in like 15 minutes.  Perhaps I drew a combo mirror round 1, so the match ended very quickly, while there were tons of people stuck in drawn-out control mirrors.  The big thing about scouting is that if you can see games 2-3, you can catch a glimpse of amazing tech, which puts you at a significant advantage.  Knowing the archetype is one thing, but knowing about amazing sideboard tech is completely different.

I concur with there being no place for dishonorable play in our format.  There's no room for dishonesty in Magic in general, but with our small community, we can't afford to have a even a small group of cheaters.

[the Luke]

I don't think there's anything wrong with taking advantage of information gained if the opponent is silly enough to show me his hand.  It isn't really hard to hold the cards upright or even angled towards you.  Often in casual games I'll just start naming the cards in my opponent's hand as a friendly way of letting them know what they've accidentally shown me.  If the opponent shuffles their own deck badly and I get to see cards, that's their problem as well.  Of course, I deliberately look away when I shuffle my opponent's deck.  Sneaking peeks that way is cheating.

Scouting is something I do, but I only try to take advantage of public information.  I won't ask people what deck they're playing before a tourney, or fish for information.  I at least say stuff to imply I'm playing something other than I am.  I had a Mox tourney the other week and I switched from Slaver to Tog for it.  I encouraged people to assume that I was still playing Slaver.  If I told them "oh I don't want to say," then even that is a clue that I've switched.

I think it would be quite a nice idea for the big Vintage tourneys to follow DCI premier events and allow decklist inspections before the finals, so as not to disadvantage those who couldn't scout.  Of course, it doesn't effect me because I live all the way over here in Australia.

-Luke

[The Atog Lord]

This is about scouting only.

Scouting is a perfectly legal tactic.

In fact, it is widespread, and there is efficient, organized scouting at the Pro Tour. Eliminated team members watch competitors who remain in contention, and record what they are playing. Then, when their teammates who are still in contention are paired, they give them a breakdown of their opponent's deck.

[GotRealLucky]

This is about scouting only.

Scouting is a perfectly legal tactic.

In fact, it is widespread, and there is efficient, organized scouting at the Pro Tour. Eliminated team members watch competitors who remain in contention, and record what they are playing. Then, when their teammates who are still in contention are paired, they give them a breakdown of their opponent's deck.

At Pro tours they do try to limit the amount of scouting but it's very difficult to stop. There are quit a number of large teams or groups of players from the same country that share information, so stopping it entirely is almost impossible. They usually ask you to leave the playing area when your match is finished so it can take quite some time before your team has all the decks. I personally don't mind getting information about my opponents decks through scouting.  

I am quite against shuffle peeking and similar things. You should tell your opponent right away when is showing you cards unknowingly. I'm not sure if it's illegal not telling them, but it is quite unsportsmanlike.

[virtual]

Eliminated team members watch competitors who remain in contention, and record what they are playing. Then, when their teammates who are still in contention are paired, they give them a breakdown of their opponent's deck.

Also, if you ever see a card in your opponent's deck while shuffling, you should immediately call a judge to try to keep everything kosher.

Don't these 2 seem to contradict each other?  

Your opponent is shuffling, and you see a card... lets say "Oath of Druids." or even just a Mana Drain.  In this case, you should call a judge...

However, beforehand, your teammate came up to you and said "I cranial extracted this guy 4 rounds ago, here's his decklist."  

And that is ok... isn't this a double standard?

-Virtual

[GotRealLucky]

Eliminated team members watch competitors who remain in contention, and record what they are playing. Then, when their teammates who are still in contention are paired, they give them a breakdown of their opponent's deck.

Also, if you ever see a card in your opponent's deck while shuffling, you should immediately call a judge to try to keep everything kosher.

Don't these 2 seem to contradict each other?  

Your opponent is shuffling, and you see a card... lets say "Oath of Druids." or even just a Mana Drain.  In this case, you should call a judge...

However, beforehand, your teammate came up to you and said "I cranial extracted this guy 4 rounds ago, here's his decklist."  

And that is ok... isn't this a double standard?

-Virtual

I don't think so. It's not something your opponent can help. I always tell my friends what their opponents are playing if I know. It's something different when your opponent shows you cards because of the way he's holding his cards or drawing them. That's something your opponent can help and I feel you should tell him right away.

[CrazyCarl]

I don't really see it as being an issue.  Yeah, accidentally revealing cards sucks, but it's something a player needs to work out, not have the rules cover their ass.  It's really not -that- hard to shuffle correctly, and seeing as how randomizing your deck is one of the most important things you do as a tournament player, if you're doing it poorly and are showing your opponent cards, tough luck.  I say you got off lucky by having an opponent tell you about the particular flaw in your playstyle.

[Mykeatog]

We live in a world of information.

In every industry, and with every person who is trying to be successfull, there is a fight over information. The people at the top of the industry; are the people with the most of it. Magic is no different; everything about our game revolves around information. We play duress because we know there is something to duress. We have teammates because we want our information to be as new and true as their information. We scout, we ID, we scoop to one another, we do whatever we can to get into the top 8. Before we sit down; we know what he is playing. If he reveals a card; then we have the advantage.

The Lakers know how many times they have to win to make the playoffs. They know how many times they have to beat the bulls. They know who is on the bulls, they know what % of the time a Bulls player is going to score a free throw. They even know what % of the time the Bulls coach is going to get thrown out of a game. They might even know if a Bulls player is injured; where exactly to hit him for the foul.

When I play magic; I play to win. Winning is fun. And I scout like a fucking novelist writes. There is nothing morally illegal about it; there is nothing wrong with it; as a matter of fact the only thing that in the list described by this thread that I consider to be shady; is slowplaying your match so you can pick which of your player plays against there player.

And I said Shady; not cheating. So long as at the table at NO POINT do I comprimize the rules and integrity of the game; then EVERYTHING that leads up to that moment is all fair game; like it is in every other professional anything that exists.

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

1. Scouting is perfectly fine.

2. I don't stare at my opponent while he's shuffling but if he flips a card over, its not my fault.  

3. I don't break the rules, well at least not on purpose.  I don't ask to replay something differently.

[Dozer]

Also, if you ever see a card in your opponent's deck while shuffling, you should immediately call a judge to try to keep everything kosher.

Don't these 2 seem to contradict each other?  

Your opponent is shuffling, and you see a card... lets say "Oath of Druids." or even just a Mana Drain.  In this case, you should call a judge...

If your opponent shows you a card in his deck while he shuffles it, you do not need to call a judge. Only if you see a card in his deck while you shuffle it you should call a judge, because if your opponent notices and calls first, you will be a cheater, not someone making an honest mistake.

Scouting is fine, and so is asking someone about his deck. When asked, I usually try to say nothing unless the other player tells me first, and even then I'll be as vague as possible, giving away only the general direction of my deck (control, combo, aggro). If a player is careless enough to build his deck while in a public spot or laying out his deck before him while writing his decklist, looking at it should be second nature. As Mykeatog said, it's all about information, and when you are ahead on info, you have made the first step to winning.

Unless you break the rules getting that info (i.e. stealing a deck to look at it), I see no ethical conundrum in scouting.

Dozer

[Zherbus]

I think scouting is ok. By scouting, I mean looking around at tables where people are opening playing decks. I do not mean trying to get information via the registration table. I also think intentionally trying to look at an opponents hand is downright shitty.

[Eastman]

Last waterbury I had 16 cards in my sideboard. The 16th went on the top and was in a slightly different sleeve. It was a beta disenchant. Before each round I counted my SB and placed it disenchant-up on the edge of my playmat.

I was playing control slaver.




My point was to throw off opponents who try to peek and 'cheat' in that respect.

That being said, there is nothing wrong with scouting, and I don't hesitate to find out from my teammates what my next opponent is playing.